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Re: Will not giving food and drink cause you to be cast alive into the lake of fire?

November 12 2011, 11:26 AM 

Donnie said "Even if you add the ones you mentioned: song books, suit and ties, church building, 4-part harmony, loud speaker system, multiple cups -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- all of these have nothing to do with perverting the doctrine of Christ."

Now Donnie, let us try adding this to your list.
Even by adding the ones mentioned: song books, suit and ties, church building, 4-part harmony, loud speaker system, multiple cups, and instruments of music -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- all of these have nothing to do with perverting the doctrine of Christ.
Nothing to it.
You made up a good list and I only truthfully added to it.

Besides, these are only objects but can be a part of traditions, yes even man-made traditions. They are objects. They are NOT and they are NOT precepts, but can be a part of such. They are how we resolve commandments. They are NOT directives in themselves, but everything we do is part of our interaction with God and resolving His Will.

Nothing to it Donnie. Do I get credit for fourth grade work now? I honestly believe I have earned it. You may not can understand it because to understand fourth grade communication you have to be on or above that level yourself.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Can't answer: What Purpose Drives Church?

November 12 2011, 2:23 PM 

If you don't know the inclusive/exclusive meaning of Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness you CANNOT be a member of the Body of Christ.

Bathrooms are NOT excluded nor is letting gas.
Any kind of vocal or instrumental rejoicing is excluded.

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Miqra (h4744) mik-raw'; from 7121; something called out, i. e. a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal: - assembly, calling, convocation, reading.

Jesus stood up to READ in the assembly or CONGREGATION: He PREACHED out in the towns and cities.

Erasmus was one of the first to publish a Greek NT: prior to that most of the scholarship read and spoke Latin without which no one should presume to speak "beyond the sacred pages." In the Latin the synagogue is;

Con-grgo , vi, tum, 1,
I. v. a., to collect into a flock or herd, to assemble
II. In gen., to collect or assemble a multitude together, to unite, join, associate.

Academia congregation. Greek example:where plato taught, scholars are called Academici, and his doctrine Philosophia Philosophia Academica,

Philosophia Philosophia Academica,
in distinction from Stoica, Cynica, [dogs, wolves Philippians]
......Cyrenaica pleasure is the only good. Good in a pleasing agitation of the mind or in active enjoyment. hedone. Nothing is just or unjust by nature, but by custom and law.


Argumentum I. A. The means by which an assertion or assumption may be made clear, proved, an argument, evidence, proof (and in particular, that which rests upon facts, while ratio is that which depends upon reasoning [Logos is the opposite of poetry or music]
ONLY the intrinsic worth, reality, truth of written prose or poetry. In philos. lang., a conclusion, a syllogism:


So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading. Ne.8:8

The Direct Command to Timothy: 1Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to [public] reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

After God has washed (baptized) away the filth in Jerusalem, they will be able to SEE andHEAR the Light

And the Lord will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence. Is.4:5

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Locus (Latin)


Jesus stood up in the synagogue to READ and then sat down for any commentary.

The Jerusalem Council Affirmed the pattern of the Synagogue. This shows why the Gentiles were ready for baptism:

Acts 15:21 For Moses
of old time
hath in every city
them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues
every sabbath [rest] day.

The Civil-Military-Clergy complex worshipped the starry host and polluted or profaned the Sabbath behind CLOSED GATES where the Levites performed as Soothsayers with Instrumental Accompaniment

For those who CANNOT grasp that from Genesis to Revelation musical instruments defined as "machines for doing hard work" were MARKS of people who told God through HIS Word to "shut your face."

Jesus stood UP in the synagogue and then SAT DOWN: they always had a building in larger areas, they had SEATS and they had a pulpit to HOLD UP THE BIBLE: not the preacher.

That which is OUTLAWED is that which INTERFERES with the PREACHING of the Word by READING the Word and discussing or arguing it. Synagogue has the meaning of a syllogism: you gather the people to gather their thoughts on the WORD (only) of GOD (only).

Paul and Peter always define the PURPOSE for the Assembly as teaching one another with "that which is written." This is after they have excluded all of what Christ defined as the hypocritic arts and crafts. I'm sorry about that but Christ promised that people would be delusioned by their own lying wonders or religious operations.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Proper Understanding of Traditions--Objects vs. Practices

November 13 2011, 9:44 PM 

Dave's Response to Donnie's Premise--That Objects (Songbooks, Suit and Ties, Carpet, Kitchen Sink, Church Bus, etc.) Are Not Traditions (e.g., "Worship of the Virgin Mary [Mother of God]"; Prayers Directed to Mary or Dead Saints) That Affect or Change the Doctrine of Christ and His Apostles:
Besides, these are only objects but can be a part of traditions, yes even man-made traditions. They are objects. They are NOT and they are NOT precepts, but can be a part of such. They are how we resolve commandments. They are NOT directives in themselves, but everything we do is part of our interaction with God and resolving His Will.

Nothing to it Donnie. Do I get credit for fourth grade work now? I honestly believe I have earned it. You may not can understand it because to understand fourth grade communication you have to be on or above that level yourself.


You can "get credit for fourth grade work now," if you like.

But you're still not comprehending the premise I stated above that OBJECTS in themselves, even if used, are NOT TRADITIONS that change, affect, modify, improvise, remove, replace the doctrine of Christ and His apostles:

  1. Songbooks, suit and ties, church pews, carpet, kitchen sink, toilets, etc., do not affect or change the doctrine of Christ and His apostles. The congregants can sing with or without the songbook; they may or may not [LOL] use the restroom; one can be baptized in the river, lake, sea, baptistery, etc. One may choose sportswear in the assembly and reserve the suit and tie for special social events.

  2. Based on your logic that objects can be "part of such" [traditions, precepts, directives, commandments], then, since churches of Christ do not use musical devices and objects (inanimate and lifeless at that), it follows that non-use of musical instruments in the assembly cannot be a man-made tradition.

    You and the change agents claim that it is a man-made tradition in the church of Christ [the church you ALL claim to be members of, remember?]. You and the change agents have just put the church of Christ to shame. You and the change agents continue to negate and object to and ridicule the church of Christ you claim to be members of.

    Therefore, you are contradicting your own logic that using objects make the activity a "tradition" -- churches of Christ do not use these musical objects.

  3. Instead, the reverse of your logic is correct: the use of inanimate, lifeless musical objects for "worship" in the assembly is THE TRADITION. This TRADITION of using musical instruments was initiated by the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope centuries AFTER the establishment of the church of Christ Jesus. Propagated by the Protestant Churches. You and the change agents have acquired and imitated this tradition from the Catholic and Protestant Churches.

  4. The doctrine of Christ and the teachings of the apostles provide NO OPTIONS for man-made traditions: (a) worship and direct prayers to the "[Perpetual] Virgin Mary, Mother of God"; (b) worship God with inanimate, lifeless musical objects by playing them and creating strange noises in His holy presence; (c) etc.

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Fred Whaley
(no login)

Re: Proper Understanding of Traditions--Objects vs. Practices

November 14 2011, 6:06 PM 

Donnie is consistently inconsistent! Or is it inconsistently consistent? Donnie says these OBJECTS do not change the doctrine of Christ whereas other objects do. How does Donnie get to pick and choose which objects matter to God and which do not when the Bible is actually not silent about instruments but promotes them in some instances? Again Donnie one can sing and make melody in their heart with instruments and without. Some of the psalms teach this. Some of the psalms use the words sing praise and worship and include references to clapping with hands or playing an instrument with hands and also reference the heart and soul praising God. When the Bible speaks adversely about instruments it is because of other matters and not the objects themselves.

Donnie will now attack Fred. Dave will refute Donnie. Donnie will repeat for the ten thousandth time his narrow and disproven theology. Fred will counter Donnie. Ken will chime in with his esoteric babylonian whore theology. And the concerned members forum will continue infinitely debating the same tiresome and irrelevant points. One positive is that my old pal Dr. Crump will enjoy some theater free of charge! wink.gif

Fred Whaley

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Proper Understanding of Traditions--Objects vs. Practices

November 15 2011, 2:01 AM 


I think you're capable of handling only one topic at a time, if at all. So, if I were you, I would save clapping for another discussion. Besides, clapping is not an object. Rather, clapping is an activity.

And speaking of objects, musical instruments are objects. These devices, inanimate and lifeless at that, when they just sit there, are objects that do not alter, modify, reject, replace the doctrine of Christ. How and what could musical objects possibly do when left unattended? Fred, you can store these objects in the church building or in the auditorium. Leave them alone--they will not devour you.

Now, when you mechanically operate them, such as blowing the trumpet or beating the drums in order to:

(1) To get God's attention and be in His holy presence--and call it "worship in REVERENCE and AWE" with the NOISE
------------------------- and/or ----------------------
(2) To perform to/for the congregants and expect applause at the end of the performance -- as it is referred to as "holy entertainment" ...

... then, the directive from God has been violated and disobeyed for the following reasons:
  1. The trumpet, drums and other musical instruments are incapable of accomplishing the purpose of the assembly--"to let the word of Christ dwell in you richly."

  2. The trumpet, drums and other musical instruments are incapable of accomplishing the purpose of the assembly--of "teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs."

  3. The trumpet, drums and other musical instruments are incapable of accomplishing the purpose of the assembly--when these musical objects cannot sing with grace in THEIR hearts to the Lord."

  4. The trumpet, drums and other musical instruments are incapable of accomplishing the purpose of the assembly--as these musical objects cannot speak to the congregants.

  5. The trumpet, drums and other musical instruments are incapable of accomplishing the purpose of the assembly--as these musical objects cannot sing and make melody in THEIR HEARTS to the Lord.
If Fred Whaley and David Fields would only return to and reunite with the church of Christ, when virtually all of its congregants worldwide do not operate mechanical music devices in their assemblies.

No, it is Fred and the change agents who will continue to demean, ridicule and negate the church of Christ that they are trying to convert to their man-made doctrine and tradition. Sorry, it's not going to happen.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

And Don't Forget the GAG REFLEX

November 15 2011, 1:16 PM 

Maybe Fred has never READ Revelatioon 17-18 which defines the Both/And use of lusted after fruits as speakers, singers and instrument players Paul called SORCERERS. As the Levites performed as Soothsayers with Instrumental Accompaniment the end time Levites are called Sorcerers with instrumental Accompaniment: they will be cast alive into the Lake of Fire. This is EXACTLY the patternism of the Old Time "singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden." Christ inspired BOTH accounts so if you make fun of Ken you make fun of the Holy Spirit of Christ WHICH Always repudiated instrumenta and instrumentalists in the cursed Civil-Military-Clergy complex. Only a rank legalist would demand a LAW which said "don't be a wannabe girl when we PREACH God by READING God."

I can tolerate a non-performing song leader if he doesn't let the 'wannabe a girly' show too much. However, I can think of nothing more blasphemous the a group of limp-wristed, falsettos performing as a musical worship team. Music, says history is a way to TRY to defues the attractive-repulsive reflex so that THEY can gain a venue in the religious mainstream. Christ--the Rock--didn't have to OUTLAW musical instruments for the synagogue or church in the wilderness for the godly tribes. However, just to make certain He imposed an absolute ban on instruments by using the same word as when people were MUSICALLY MOCKING Him at the cross. Freddy may not be able to CONFESS as the MARK of equating spiritual Worship of a Wholly Spirit God with machines for doing hard work mostly in making war.

1. Rick Atchley lied about all of the Bible and recorded history to IMPOSE that which appealed to HIS sensibilities.
2. Rick Boasted that the younger generation had been seduced by musical instruments to "leave our movement": that was what CM claimed a decade ago.
3. So, the Atchley, Norman, Henderson etal churches had NOT heard any BIBLICAL teachings against instruments for a decade--really reaching back to the secting out of the NACC from the Disciples.
4. Most of these less than two dozen churches had gone DEFACTO LEGALISTIC by imposing musical worship teams useing ORGANUM devised by the A cappella or Castrated Opera singers.
5. That means that they had deliberately packed the congregation with people who had EAR LUST and EYE LUST (Matthew Henry).
6. Yet, when instruments were announded 300 out of 900 (Quail Springs) members stood up and walked out or did not reappear.
7. That is because the PERSONA which no one ever disputed or doubted that this was the EVIDENCE of the promised homosexual or homosexual-persona from Clay Tablets onward.
8. Therefore, the people RECOGNIZED this PERSONA and like me stumbling into the restroom of an art museum, turned and ran with the hair standing up on the back of their head.
9. They may not have known just why from 1/3 to 1/2 of them FLED, but WE KNOW.
10. Therefore, this is not a CONSERVATIVE issue but a RACIAL judgment of the Race of Vipers or Crooked Race condemned by Jesus and from whom we are to SAVE ourselves:

The Crooked Race of Skolion singers pointed to the male symposium of men who "got drunk on wine" before they USED the flute-girl (prostitute) or harp-boy (prostitute)

Fr.Johannes Quasten. In Music and Worship in Pagan and Christian Antiquity, beginning on page 41 He uses many of the church Fathers and Classical resources:

"Philodemus considered it paradoxical that music should be regarded as veneration of the gods while musicians were paid for performing this so-called veneration. Again, Philodemus held as self deceptive the view that music mediated religious ecstasy. He saw the entire condition induced by the noise of cymbals and tambourines as a disturbance of the spirit.

He found it significant that, on the whole, only women and effeminate men fell into this folly.

Accordingly, nothing of value could be attributed to music; it was no more than a slave of the sensation of pleasure, which satisfied much in the same way that food and drink did.

Those so AFFILICTED will never be able to read BLACK text on BROWN Paper so we can prove that Jesus marked the Scribes and Pharisees as HYPOCRITES by quoting Isaiah and Ezekiel who NAMED amusing speakers (that effeminate thingy), singers and instrument players. The word Hypocrite means ONLY rhetoricians, musicians, actors or any of the performing ARTS including music: When we think of a hypocrite the FACTS are that we accuse them of being LIKE a performing artist.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Psalms are Warrior Chants

November 17 2011, 10:19 PM 

Paul would point to only 50 Mizmors which were not restricted: none of these included an instrument.

A Psalm is a SONG: you can read or SPEAK the psalm but you do NOT imply an instrument unless that instrument is named.

Psallo-based words just mean Pluck with your finers and NEVER with a plectrum. You would VIOLATE Psallo if you used a guitar pick, flute, drum or ANY thing but a STRINGED instrument such as a BOW.

The translators used the Psao words BECAUSE they understood that psalms were mostly warrior chants intending to intimidate the enemy EVEN AS musical instruments are a BOAST that "we have taken you captive."

The godly people who attended The Church of Christ in the wilderness were NOT permitted to go near or into any holy thing and place. The command of God was not to "make musical noise during the goat burning" but His command was to STAND IN RANKS, on guard and EXECUTE any Levite or any one not a priest on duty. I just rejoice daily that I went to Reading 101aaa.

Psalmos also appears in the LXX as equivalent to the Hebrew word neginah [5058]. This Hebrew term is used to describe a wide variety of songs. Neginah is translated by psalmos in Lam 3:14 (song), in Lam 5:14 (music) and in Ps 69:12 (song). It is striking to observe that in the LXX translation of Lam 3:14 and Ps 69:12, psalmos, or its verbal form, is used for songs that are not only uninspired but are in fact the product of the wicked, even drunkards, who mocked God and His word. The Hebrew term neginah is used elsewhere in the Hebrew Scriptures of: the songs of the wicked, Job 30:9 (song); the inspired praise of God, Psalm 61 title (Neginah-a song performed on a stringed instrument); and the uninspired praisd of the Lord composed by King Hezekiah, Is 38:20 (my songs).

Here is the SHOOTING ARROW connection;

Especially a song of derision, a satire

Lamentations 3:13 He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins.
Lamentations 3:14 I was a derision to all my people; and their song all the day.

5059. nagan, naw-gan´; a primitive root; properly, to thrum, i.e. beat a tune with the fingers; expec. to play on a stringed instrument; hence (generally), to make music:player on instruments, sing to the stringed instruments, melody, ministrel, play(-er, -ing).

H5060 nâga naw-gah' A primitive root; properly to touch, that is, lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphemistically, to lie with a woman); by implication to reach (figuratively to arrive, acquire); violently, to strike (punish, defeat, destroy,

The IMPLIED threat of the Levites who were an old Egyptian infant burning sect was that IF you did not turn and run we will capture you, sodomize you and then kill you: this was the ancient and modern method of putting you into subjection to them: the pipers tried that on Jesus but He would not sing or lament (the ouchy wineskin thing) and dance (out of pain."

Of the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden.

Isaiah 23:16 Take an {1} harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten;
make sweet {2} melody, {3}sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered.

Christ OUTLAWED "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" on the REST day where they PREACHED the Word by READING the Word

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

More "Feminine Mark"

November 15 2011, 10:33 PM 

How to Turn Warriors into WIMMEN!

HEREDOTUS 1: He visited Egypt and defines the Apis or Calf worship which was the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. Apis was a real bull and some embalmed "gods" still exist. He represented the Egyptian Trinity and that is why the golden calf represented godS

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This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Nov 15, 2011 10:36 PM

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Please give an answer?

November 16 2011, 2:41 PM 

A legalists -- Nomos -- in the Greek sense was a form of music and specificially dedicated to teachings the traditions of Apollo (Abaddon, Apollyon).

Apollyon's etal's musical worship team (Rev18) was universally known to be prostitutes: corrupting the word and selling learning at retail is also called prostitution. Be careful not to sell your body in the name of God.

Hesiod, The Theogony: underlying the OUTLAWING of instruments in the synagogue or ekklesia.

Hes. Th. 11 And one day they taught Hesiod glorious song while he was shepherding his lambs under holy Helicon, and this word first the goddesses said to me [25] the Muses of Olympus, daughters of Zeus who holds the aegis: Shepherds of the wilderness, wretched things of shame, mere bellies, we know how to speak many false things as though they were true; but we know, when we will, to utter true things.

People have nasty habit of adding Instruments-- a machine for doing hard work mostly in making war or creating the shock and awe of religious rituals. Jesus defined that as the laded burden (forms of songs)

THEN, they brand those who have NEVER in recorded history used instruments, with being DIVISIVE and SECTARIAN and LEGALISTIC for teaching what the Bible and History says. I wonder whether this is part of the planned attact or maybe people cannot parse truth when their "though leaders" tell them what to think. I think that the "enablers" of fleecers should grasp that contrary to the new mantra you don't have to think the COMMUNITY (commune) thought (Shelly etal.) Liberty is liberty FROM whatever it is they want you to do or think to launder their lucre.

A legalist would say, "Show me a LAW which says 'thou shalt never use a musical instrument in worship services." A Disciple of Christ would say "where is the law of Christ which makes me pay you as mediator with God in sermons and music? Once you have A holy spirit you WILL quite enabling the morally disabled.


Why should anyone be owned as a Disciple of Christ when they deliberately LIE about all of the Bible and recorded history to INTIMIDATE and force an honorable role in the mainstream for those who OFFEND and make the "owners" flee from their church family and often human family. For the masses (proven by the tiny defection) having wimpy burgers PERFORM and CLAIM that they are PARTNERING with the Holy Spirit person (ACU) is the most offensive thing people could do as the blaspheme the Holy (adjective) Spirit of Christ in ALL of the prophets?

Please don't respond: "Where is the LAW."

There can be no dialog when people make assertions to defend the two things God is said to HATE (Music in the holy place and people who sow discord) and then flit away only to strike again.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

What Is the Change Agent's Fruit; What Are His Words, Deeds?

November 17 2011, 8:25 PM 

In response to Ray's post entitled: "What is Donnie's Fruit, words, deeds?" (November 17 2011, 9:45 AM):

From Hebrews -- yes, a great passage for the change agents who have no respect for the word of God. Instead, the change agents have great respect for the words from culture and denominational leaders as they compromise God's truth -- the ONLY way they know to do to get along and gain their trust.

The above statement applies to Ray and other disciples of the change agents.

While the change agents have converted a few of the thousands of congregations of the church of Christ into their ISM, that doesn't mean that the church, the body of Christ, is aligning with them. Ray to date has not revealed his church affiliation. If he is a member of the church and behaves like the change agents, then we can expect him and the agents to continue belittling and ridiculing the church and its beliefs.

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(no login)

Which "fruits" best describe Donnie's works - his website?

November 29 2011, 9:27 AM 

[Is Donnie's website best described by this:] "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, _enmities_, _strife_, jealousy, _outbursts of anger_, _disputes_, _dissensions_, _factions_, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

[or by this:] "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us _not become boastful_, _challenging one another_, envying one another."

(from Paul to the Christians in Galatia)

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

The parable: Food is the WORD

November 29 2011, 11:20 AM 

If you hallucinalte the Ekklesia - Synagogue of Christ as a Worship Service the Hebrew word as HARD BONDAGE: the same word as Abaddon or Apollyon. Performance music with self-composed fruit loopy praise songs is PREDESTINATED and means "to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter." "Hell is prepared for them and the MARKS in sight and sound of God driving them there is wind, string and percussion instruments."

That was Christ's message to those who went in musical processions to Jerusalem to offer up burnt offerings of children or goats.

Now, before we can even consider the Fruit of the spirit as opposed to the spirit of the fruits, we have to grasp that Paul ALWAYS casts out the literal and spiritual castrates (dog) or old style praise singers.

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You will notice that I have Chrysostom and all recorded history on my side: parables to FOOL the foolish, a Way to Avoid for DISCIPLES (students of Christ what He commanded to be taught) who CANNOT be fooled but not quite: the FRUITS of the NACC-ACU etal combine has only sifted out those who were never WITH Christ and His Rest to Read and discuss HIS WORDS in the prophets and apostles.

Now, you are ready for the fruit of the Spirit or Mind which CANNOT be a disciple of Christ and a disciple of the seekers of worship of THEM.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: The parable: Food is the WORD

November 29 2011, 12:15 PM 

Jesus preached the gospel OF THE KINGDOM and not just facts about Himself. He warned about all of the CALLERS waging war to try to collect all of the butterflies to their honey pot. He said that the Kingdom of God is WITHIN us and does not come with OBSERVATION. This means, the kingdom will never be able to manifest itself when the "lamb silencers" are engaged in Religious Observations or "worship services" where they assure you that their performers can lead you into the presence of God. They stand in the holy place CLAIMING the unique Role of Jesus Christ who is not The Holy Spirit state.

Performance rhetoric and performance music is Christ's identification of hypocrites. Worship IN the Spirit or Mind is a place and the ONE PIECE PATTERNISM is to Teach that which is written for our learning. The Lord's Supper is preaching the death of Jesus: we also must DIE to the flesh before we can word IN THE SPIRIT as a place. Anything beyond that comes from sinners.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

How they ENSLAVE you to make Worship Wars

December 1 2011, 9:01 PM 

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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