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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Clear as Mud

October 27 2011, 2:37 PM 

One thing that I have gathered by what you both (Donnie and Ken) have presented here.....you haven't presented anything new or enlightening on the subject. You have clarified nothing.

Was it God that hung on the cross?
Matthew 27
46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani? (which means My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?)

You say the Three are ONE, but you can't explain Matthew 27:46....

Matthew 12
31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

You say the Three are One but you cant say why Jesus makes a distinction between Jesus and the Holy Spirit in Matthew 12

Jesus CLEARLY and definitely states, in Matthew 12, that Himself and the Holy Spirit are different.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.68.239

Re: Clear as Mud

October 27 2011, 3:15 PM 

Was it God that hung on the cross?
Matthew 27
46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani? (which means My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?)

You say the Three are ONE, but you can't explain Matthew 27:46....


Nope: the Term Father, Son and Spirit are well-understood views of the godhead including the Jews where Zeus, Hera, Dionysus or other "god families" were worshipped. Herod's Temple was devoted to Jupiter etal. In the beginning it was devoted "to the worship of the starry host.

THE ANTITHESIS: if Jesus was going to represent the TRUE Jehovah WHO is ONE, He would have to convince that:

The ONE GOD THE FATHER in heaven cannot be seen or heard or worshipped in houses or by the works of human hands. Jesus of Nazareth when God "made him to be both Lord and Christ" was the ONLY image of God and voice of God.

This was to DISPROVE that the ONE GOD in heaven was three, visible, audible members of a god family--after which churches become A Family of God.

Jesus AFFIRMED that if you see Him have seen the FATHER as imaged in Him. The Apostles were WITH the only Spirit when they were with HIM. He was NOT speaking of God, Jesus and Spirit person.

On the cross, the MAN Jesus of Nazareth TAUGHT YOU THE FACT: The Son, the Man Jesus appealed to the ONE GOD without any personal spirit as intercessor.

Jehovah God is the ONLY Elohim: Jehovah is not three people: The trinity is NOT God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit person. The trinity is Father, Son and Spirit ALL made known in ONE-SINGULAR person. Again, This 'triad' is the UNIVERSALLY PAGAN view which Jesus came to REFUTE.

1Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God OUR Saviour;
1Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved,
and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is ONE God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the MAN Christ Jesus;
1Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Gnostics cannot tolerate the idea that God represented His true nature as a frail, human person without a house to put the pillow He did not have.




 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

Re: Clear as Mud

October 27 2011, 3:34 PM 

Ken dodged Dave's point about Matthew 12 and the distinction Jesus makes between blasphemy of him versus the Holy Spirit. Ken teaches false doctrine on both instrumental music and the Godhead. Ken is a change agent as he is trying to twist the holy scriptures to communicate what he wants them to mean. 99.999% of Churches of Christ and Baptists and Methodists and Presbyterians and Catholics teach that the Godhead is three persons and not two persons. Maybe the .001% are wrong on this?

Fred Whaley

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.69.231

There is ONE GOD: not three Gods who are united.

October 27 2011, 7:56 PM 

Ken dodged Dave's point about Matthew 12 and the distinction Jesus makes between blasphemy of him versus the Holy Spirit. Ken teaches false doctrine on both instrumental music and the Godhead. Ken is a change agent as he is trying to twist the holy scriptures to communicate what he wants them to mean. 99.999% of Churches of Christ and Baptists and Methodists and Presbyterians and Catholics teach that the Godhead is three persons and not two persons. Maybe the .001% are wrong on this?

First, I didn't say the GODHEAD was two persons: The divine communication is between ONE God and ONE person. God is not a person or "people." You don't NEED a separate person for a father to speak to His Son. God MADE TO BE Jesus of Nazareth both Lord and Christ and gave HIM all authority. We can't trust those who HEAR or SEE beyond the Word.

their is only ONE God the Father in heaven Who "thinks" and "breathes out."
There is one man Jesus Christ who mediates between GOD and MAN.

All of the "fullness" of the Godhead was caused to be manifested in the ONE MAN to prove a point.

The neo-Trinitarians flowing out of LU and John Mark Hicks defines THREE God persons "each with their own centers of consciousness." "They" NEED this to communicate" says John Mark. That is called Tritheism or polytheism. No historic Trinitarian or Restoration leader failed to recognize that The ONE GOD has within Him His Own Wisdom, Spirit and Word but these are not LU's "people."

The classical trinitarians used the word PERSONAE which means masks: God makes HIMself known in various ways since He has no name like us. God is most often a hyphenated word which defines how and through whom He Works.

I ANSWERED DAVE ABOVE.

Remember that the ROCK that followed Israel was Christ and all of the prophets inspired by the SPIRIT OF CHRIST are defined as that upon which the Spirit reign of the Messiah would be built. That includes the prophecies made more certain by Jesus of Nazareth who now reigns as the MAN between God and man. The Spirit of Christ repudiated the Civil-Military-Clergy which foundation the changelings build THEIR church. The Spirit of Christ was HOLY (adjective).

First Premise: The changelings (right and left) claim that God commanded the sacrificial system even though Stephen says God ABANDONED them to worship the starry host.

Second Premise: The Holy Spirit of Christ in the prophets said that God DID NOT command the sacrifices and burnt offerings which destroyed tens of thousands of God's lovely creatures.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox
.....is as if he slew a man;
he that sacrificeth a lamb,
.....as if he cut off a dogs neck;
he that offereth an oblation,
.....as if he offered swines blood;
he that burneth incense,
.....as if he blessed an idol.
Yea, they have chosen their own ways,
.....and their soul delighteth in their abominations.


Conclusions: Jer 23:17 They say still unto them that despise me,
Despise is blasphemy.
The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace;
and they say unto every one that walketh
after the imagination of his own heart,
No evil shall come upon you.


NEXT: This "noise" never called music was to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter:

Jeremiah 11:19 But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered.

Devise, Cogito from your own mind, chants or machinery:.
Perfumed with Syrian essences
And wreathed with roses, while we may,
Lie drinking? Bacchus puts to shame
The cares that waste us. Where's the slave
To quench the fierce Falernian's flame
With water from the passing wave?
Who'll coax coy Lyde from her home?
Go, bid her take her ivory lyre,
The runaway, and haste to come,
Her wild hair bound with Spartan tire.
Carmen , nis, n. (old form cas-men , Varr. L. L. p. 86 Bip.) [Sanscr. ├žasto declaim, praise; cf.: camilla, censeo],
I. a tune, song; poem, verse; an oracular response, a prophecy; a form of incantation (cf.: cano, cantus, and canto).
socialia carmina, id. H. 12, 139: barbaricum, id. M. 11, 163.With allusion to playing on the cithara [guitar]: hoc carmen hic tribunus plebis non vobis sed sibi intus canit, Cic. Agr. 2, 26, 68


We proved that the HOLY SPIRIT spoke through the prophets and the words of Jesus which he called spirit"

FIRST PROOF:

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently,
who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 1 Peter 1: 10

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ
which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ,
and the glory that should follow. 1 Peter 1: 11


SECOND PROOF:

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 2 Cor 3:15

Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 2 Cor 3:16
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit OF the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
are changed into the same image from glory to glory,
even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Cor 3:18

And because ye are sons,
God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son
into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Gal 4:6


I'll Bet the Spirit of Jesus Christ is named Jesus Christ?


THIRD PROOF:

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him.
And he said unto me, See thou do it not:
I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren
that have the testimony of Jesus:
worship God: for the testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.

You can speak against the human Jesus of Nazareth, but if you SPEAK AGAINST the Word of God you blaspheme the Holy Spirit of Christ as the Words of the ONE GOD in heaven.

Jesus will not need to pass judgment on those who SAY when He has NOT SAID:

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not,
I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me,
and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him:
the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


That is because He said "My Words ARE Spirit and Life." Those who devise DEVICES (machinery or songs) which are NOT the Word of Christ in the prophets and made perfect by Jesus of Nazareth" are the ones using BURNING ANIMALS WITH INSTRUMENTAL NOISE: Christ in the Spirit says that they are blasphemers. They have free will: but if they decide to SELL THEIR BODIES and SAY when Christ has not said will never be forgiven.






    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.69.231 on Oct 27, 2011 8:35 PM


 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: There is ONE GOD: not three Gods who are united.

October 27 2011, 9:11 PM 

Brother Sublett, I welcome an open and respectful discussion on this significant matter. You present a view of God I have never heard. Historically, yours is a fifth view on the subject of "the Godhead." Here are the four views put forth by various Christian thinkers. (Polytheism that you also reference is not on the specifics of "the Godhead" in Scripture but is an alternative view to monotheism.)

1. Arianism
2. Modalism
3. Tritheism
4. The Trinity

Arianism states that Jesus did not always exist. Tritheism says there are 3 different gods. Modalism says the one god changes roles from father, later to son, and finally to spirit.

The trinity says there are three persons who are all fully God/deity. There are four statements that are all necessary to explain this prominent doctrine in Christianity.

A. There is one God.
B. The Father is fully God/deity, and is distinct from the Son and the Spirit.
C. The Son is fully God/deity, and is distinct from the Father and the Spirit.
D. The Spirit is fully God/deity, and is distinct from the Father and the Son.

While the latin word trinitas is not in the bible, the concept is. There are three persons who are all fully God in nature/essence, and yet, are distinct beings/persons. Furthermore, while this view is more complex and is more of a mystery, such should be expected of "God." That is, that He is more complicated to fathom, not less. While man has tried to simplify God with various analogies, all are imperfect illustrations.

Finally, of the four historical views listed above, each tries to explain a relationship involving three separately referenced beings in Scripture. Your view (a fifth view), is drastically different because you do not accept there existing three beings but only one being as Father in heaven and as Jesus on earth (if I understand correctly).

Feel free to comment on any of the above. Either way, I do have two questions for you for which I am interested to learn.
1. How long have you held this position?
2. How many people do you know who believe your position?

Respectfully,

Sonny

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.69.231

Re: There is ONE GOD: not three Gods who are united.

October 27 2011, 10:32 PM 

There is another view called

Monotheism: I believe in the One God the Father of all things.
His Spirit is His Breath
His Son is His Word.

Jesus of Nazareth was "a body prepared for me" meaning Christ to take on the form of a servant. God vested full authority in Jesus of Nazareth: He made Him to be Both Lord and Christ. He acknowledged Him as His Son after He obeyed in baptism. I believe that whatever we do in word or deed we should do in the name (name and authority) of Jesus Christ. He is the Image of God: the Light from God: He is a visible and audible "God among us" because He did not speak on His own. I don't understand all of that but Alexander Campbell affirms that Jesus of Nazareth was not the Word of God in the past: in these last days God's Word is through His Son and He is the only one God prepared to speak for Him. Jesus still lives and "abides" in those who keep His commandments and 1 John 2 says that Jesus Christ is the "another Comforter" He spoke about in John 14. That is because He returned to God and received His Holy (adjective) State and it was He that "poured out what ye see and hear" at Pentecost. He can still be audible and visible to Paul to qualify Him to be an apostle to be guided into all truth: Jesus promised that HE would appear to Paul to comfort and guide Him into all truth: He did not promise to send a separate spirit person.

Ooops!

I forgot Wisdom, Sophia who is a she.

Speaking of God's Wisdom, understanding, knowledge, discretion, etal

Proverbs 3:19
....The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth;
....by understanding hath he established the heavens.
Proverbs 3:20 By his knowledge the depths are broken up,
....and the clouds drop down the dew.
Proverbs 3:21 My son, let not them depart from thine eyes:
....keep sound wisdom and discretion:

Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way,
.... before his works of old.
Proverbs 8:23 I was set up from everlasting,
....from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Proverbs 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth;
....when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Proverbs 8:25 Before the mountains were settled,
....before the hills was I brought forth:
Proverbs 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields,
....nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there:
....when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Proverbs 8:28 When he established the clouds above:
....when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Proverbs 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree,
....that the waters should not pass his commandment:
....when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Proverbs 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him:
....and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Proverbs 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
....and my delights were with the sons of me

I grew up with the Gospel Advocate, H. Leo Boles, Trithism: I learned it and taught it.
After Korea and College I moved to Seattle: became a teacher, deacon and elder. The preacher denied that the Spirit OF Christ was another "people." I had trouble with that until I moved back to Murfreesboro, Tn and prepared lesson material for the adult classes on the Holy Spirit. That's when I began to catch on--when I began to read whole thought patterns instead of looking up verses in the Lexicon.

In 1995 we retired to Hohenwald, Tn and they were singing (sanging) about:

Woursh-uping the Futher
Woursh-uping Je-Zeus {hail Zeus} and
Woursh-uping the Huly Spurt.
I noticed people folding their song books and hanging their heads.

Only in these latter days have people evil enough to lie, cheat and steal the church house of widows to turn their "school of the Word" into a "theater for holy entertainment (Donnie's church) have dared to assert that the spirit lives inside of their carnal bodies.

My estimation is about half of the church of Christ preachers believe in the literal indwelling of a literal Holy Spirit Person. Most of them deny that they know anything they did not read in the Written Word of the Living Word. I have done several forums and there are many non-trinitarian groups out there in the "three separated people sense." In any case I can't worry about what people believe if I am going to be a disciple of Christ.

From sermons and reading the long lists on the internet I am convinced that they have not read the context or even looked at the Bible to glean their lists of what the "spirit" does.


Work really hard before you are ready to repudiate this:

1Timothy 2:5
....For there is one God,
....and one mediator between God and men,
....the man Christ Jesus;
1Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Go back and grasp that T.Campbell wrote that those who think of three literal persons say that there are THREE GODS. John Mark Hicks speaking for the LU-Gospel Advocate view says that THEY each have THEIR OWN Center of Consciousness. That, I believe answers to first John's definition of ANTI-Christ because it needs to supliment the work of the human man Jesus of Nazareth.

If the massed multitudes believe something it is probably wrong with little or no "church" as A School of the Word.






    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.69.231 on Oct 27, 2011 11:40 PM


 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: There is ONE GOD: not three Gods who are united.

October 28 2011, 12:00 AM 

Interesting bro. Thanks for sharing! While I disagree with your view, I respect and am willing to continue discussing and listening to your perspective of God's Word.

On one point, trinitarians are also simultaneously advocating monotheism and not polytheism. One God/Deity/Substance/Essence in 3 persons/beings.

Whereas, Arianism claims that the Father later created the Son Jesus, the Trinity view believes Jesus is fully God and has always been.

Likewise, whereas tritheism communicates three separate gods, the Trinity advocates one God in unity and substance that is tri-personal as Father, Son, and Spirit.

Lastly, modalism teaches monotheism but that God changed masks from Father later to Son and finally to Holy Spirit. Again, the trinity on the other hand upholds that the Father, Son and Spirit have all existed three-in-one simultaneously from everlasting to everlasting.

A blessed night to all.

-Sonny

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

One God.....One Jesus Christ..

October 27 2011, 10:40 PM 

Actually, Ken....you cemented the thought with that Scripture.

1Timothy 2:5
....For there is one God,
....and one mediator between God and men,
....the man Christ Jesus;

Timothy makes ANOTHER clear distinction between the ONE God and the ONE Jesus Christ


1+1 still equals two, right?

Get your calculator out Ken.

Don't trust this to counting it on your hands.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.69.231

Re: One God.....One Jesus Christ..

October 27 2011, 11:00 PM 

One Apple and One Orange does not calculate to two of either.

There is ONE GOD BEING Who is on the SENDING side.
There is ONE MAN Being Who is on the RECEIVING side.

There are not two God Beings nor two man beings qualified to be MEDIATOR.

Sound and radio waves are invisible and inaudible: ONLY if you are the designated RECEIVER can you detect the invisible waves.

Your task is "can you believe that the man Jesus whom God made to be both Lord and Christ" can wage war against Satan in the form of man.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.69.231 on Oct 27, 2011 11:03 PM


 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

You Can't Read....It is a Sign That Listening Has Been Taken From You

October 28 2011, 1:05 AM 

There is ONE GOD, but if you could read you would see that the Scriptures didn't say ONE MAN, but Son of Man.....that being Jesus.

Try it again.....this time mathematize it with the use of your toes if you have trouble using your hands.

Or perhaps you know what it says but because of preconceived notions.....you just don't care?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Dave's and the Trinitarian's Mathematics

October 28 2011, 3:12 AM 

A brief summary of the mathematics of the Trinity creed or view:

The "person" being attributed to each of the Trinity members is that each one is a "man," since not one of the Trinitarians is likely to believe or be convinced that our Father in heaven is a female or is a neuter gender.

Trinitarians believe:

(1) That the Father is a person (man)
(2) That the Son is also a person (man)
(3) That the Holy Spirit is also a person (man)
(4) Therefore, accordingly, there are three persons (or three men) in one.


In order to make it clearer from the Trinity creed's standpoint that none of the three persons is a female, they might as well revise the verses in the hymn "Holy, Holy, Holy"

(1) FROM: "God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity" [which might include "female"]
(2) TO: "God in Three Men, Blessed Trinity" [which leaves no one to doubt]


Thankfully, Alexander Campbell and the other great men of the Restoration Movement were insightful enough to see the fallacy of the Trinity doctrine. Even the early publishers and editors of our hymnbooks noted the fallacy to the point that they accepted the revision of the hymn "Holy, Holy, Holy" where the verses changed:

(1) FROM: "God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity"
(2) TO: "God overall, and blest eternally"


Again, the word "spirit" is a noun, singular neuter; the word "holy" is an adjective. "The Spirit" or "the holy Spirit of God" (Epheians 4:30) simply identifies God whose "spirit" is "holy." The preposition "OF" in the expression "holy Spirit OF God" simply signifies possession or belongingness.

We can go on and on with examples of ownership.

One: "the mind of David Fields" or "the brilliant mind OF David Fields." The "mind" of Dave or the "brilliant mind" of Dave belongs to Dave. And the "mind" of Dave or the "brilliant mind" of Dave is NOT Dave himself.

Two: "the nose of Barbra Streisand" or "the cute nose of Barbra Streisand." The "nose" of Barbra Streisand or the "cute nose" of Barbra Streisand belongs to her. And the "nose" of B.S. or the "cute nose" of B.S. is NOT Barbra Streisand herself.

How much more simply can we explain "the holy Spirit OF God" in Eph. 4:13 and other related passages?

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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