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Questions for the Church of Christ.

October 24 2011 at 7:31 PM
  (Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
from IP address 166.248.68.65

The ANTI-church "Answering the Church of Christ" recommends a Roman Catholic site which. Since the Progressive Church of Christ makes the same false charges as the Catholic Church, we will look at this Catholic page.

Questions for the Church of Christ-Faith Facts

http://www.piney.com/Questions.for.the.Church.of.Christ-Faith.Facts.html



    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.68.65 on Oct 24, 2011 9:33 PM


 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.66.157

Faith Facts Questions for the Church of Christ

October 25 2011, 12:10 PM 

Augustine on the Trinity: A Summary

http://www.piney.com/Trinity.Augustine.html
Faith Facts: The Holy Spirit

Faith Facts: 1. Hughes in his book says that many young people within the church of Christ think their traditional view of the Holy Spirit is "Lashing the Spirit of God to an objective book of paper and inkor, indeed, circumscribing the Spirit with any kind of rational constraintsultimately impoverished the soul and drained life of its meaning." Does this charge concern you?


Consistently with the definition of "spirit," the clear statements by Jesus Christ and classical trinitarians churches of Christ students do not believe that the spirit OF John Doe is another person (people). The "personal' Holy Spirit is Jesus of Nazareth in His post-resurrected and post--glorified state. He said that His words were spirit. That is not another person but the Mind of Christ. Disciples understand that the Mind of Christ is revealed in the Bible: you cannot be a Bible-based disciple and feel the need to go beyond "that which is written for our learning." Those who claim to read "beyond the sacred pages" prove that they cannot read what is within the sacred pages.

Jesus said that "doctors of the law take away the key to knowledge." He named thes Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites. In the Ezekiel 33 model Christ in Spirit named preachers, singers and instrument players. THE primary meaning of a hypocrite is a rhetorician. That especially applies when the preacher goes beyond "that which is written for our learning."

That is a fact because Hughes etal SAY (and say and say and say) that's what we USED to beleive "but now we are educated." The Church of Christ has the same view of the spirit OF Christ as all of the Bible and historic Church Fathers. Anyone who went through preopsitional phrases 101a understands that the spirit OF a person is the person's own spirit or mind or mental disposition. When the foolish people thought that Jesus was speaking of eating His fleshand Drinking His blood he was just fooling the foolish where the Khana-Baal or the Priests of Baal in all paganism were cannibals:

.....It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
.....the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63


Christ the Spirit put the same message into Isaiah to draw a parallelism between God's Word and God''s Spirit--again God's Spirit is God's Mind and not another god person inside of Him:

Isaiah 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD;
.....My spirit that is upon thee,
.....and my words which I have put in thy mouth,
..........shall not depart out of thy mouth,
..........nor out of the mouth of thy seed,
..........nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed, saith the LORD,
..........from henceforth and for ever.


Having read all of the Bible and especially 1 Corinthians 2 those weaned on the Bible in Churches of Christ understand that Paul -- as he often does--draws a parallel:

The Holy Spirit OF God
.....Is to God
What our spirit
.....Is to us.
Then "but WE have the mind of Christ."

None of the classical trinitarians failed to understand that

There is only ONE GOD the Father of the Universe.
There is only ONE Son, Jesus of Nazareth, whom the Father "made to be both Lord and Christ."
The creeds then add as an afterthought "and we believe in the Holy Spirit" but they did not make IT a part of the ONE God in heaven and ONE man on earth to be His Mediator: Moses said 'another prophet like me.'

John who said that the "another Comforter" was Jesus Christ the Righteous also said that if you don't believe in the

One God in Heaven
One Son on Earth

Spirit ONLY means "wind." It is used in a figurative sense of the "breath" of the One Father revealing His Mind to the One Son. In Matthew 23 Jesus said that parables were to fool the foolish Scribes and Pharisees. He called them hypocrites and Christ in Ezekiel called them Rhetoricians (sellers of wined water), singers and instrument players.

Then you are ANTI-Christ and a Blasphemer because you CLAIM something Jesus Christ The Holy Spirit did not reveal to you.

http://www.piney.com/Blasphemy.Against.The.Holy.Spirit.html




 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Knowledge in the Hands of the Foolish

October 25 2011, 5:02 PM 

Ken Sublett said "John who said that the "another Comforter" was Jesus Christ the Righteous also said that if you don't believe in the

John said NO such a thing. Jesus said it! Do I need to send you a red letter edition? Also, John nor Jesus said that the "another Comforter" was Jesus Christ. ANOTHER means additional and/or different.

(KJV) John 146And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Ken, why would Jesus tell us that He will send the Holy Ghost in HIS NAME (Jesus) if it were actually Jesus Himself? Why would Jesus refer to the Holy Spirit as being "He?" If it were Himself He would not have said "He."

John 16
13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Notice vs 14.....HE shall glorify ME. Two different spirits being spoke of here Ken.

Lets try this one Ken....
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

You can speak a word against Jesus, but not the Holy Ghost. Still say that they are the same???



 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.67.153

Jesus was the Spirit OF truth--Comforter to the Apostles in the flesh.

October 25 2011, 8:10 PM 

Note the condition:

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father,
....and he shall give you another Comforter,
....that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth;
....whom the WORLD cannot receive,
....because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him:
....but ye know him;
....for he dwelleth with you,
....and shall be in you.
John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

The Apostles "saw" the Spirit of Truth
The Apostles "knew" the Spirit of Truth
The Apostles "dwelled with" the Spirit of truth.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:
handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

A "spirit" to the disciples was a ghost or "spook."

Jesus was not A spirit in that sense:

He was a Holy Spirit
He was a visible Spirit OF Truth.
The glorified Jesus of Nazareth let Paul SEE Him and HEAR His voice.
He promised to APPEAR to Paul to guide him into all truth.

The "spirit" of the hireling-preacherlings who just read other people's blogs is probably a "Lying Spirit."

Which Spirit OF would you like: none of these are PEOPLE. Spirit literally means ONLY Wind.


[linked image]

If Jesus Christ the Righteous--the promised Comforter--wants to say something to any of those people who intimidate and fleece you by claiming that their KoolAid works magic MUST be able to swear that they have SEEN the risen Holy Spirit Jesus or He SPOKE to them.

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.67.153

Theophilos Father of Trinity

October 25 2011, 8:20 PM 

Theophilus of Antioch: Doctrine of the Trinity

http://www.piney.com/HsTheopTrinity.html

Theophilus was the first person to use the word "trias." This was in the year 181 and the Anathasian Creed was not formulated until the fifth century.

[linked image]

You will say, then, to me, "Is God angry? "Yes; He is angry with those who act wickedly, but He is good, and kind, and merciful, to those who love and fear Him; for He is a chastener [not punisher] of the godly, and father of the righteous; but he is a judge and punisher of the impious.

Chapter IV.-Attributes of God. Theophilus of Antioch, Theophilus of Antioch,

And He is without beginning, because He is unbegotten; and He is unchangeable, because He is immortal.

And he is called God on account of His having placed all things on security afforded by Himself; and on account of any of any foreign means (of) running, and moving, and being active, and nourishing, and foreseeing, and governing, and making all things alive.

But he is Lord, because He rules over the universe;
Father, because he is before all things;
Fashioner and Maker, because He is creator and maker of the universe;
the Highest, because of His being above all;
and Almighty, because He Himself rules and embraces all.


 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.111.145

Re: Theophilos Father of Trinity

October 25 2011, 8:38 PM 

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
*********************************************

Ken,

Three, yet one. Not "A" but "the". BTW the New Testament pre dates "Theophilus". happy.gif

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.67.153

True.

October 25 2011, 9:24 PM 

The Bible predates the "trias" words. The NT predates the LU tritheism by 1938 years. H. Leo Boles, Church of Christ East wing. No one baptized in the NAMES of Father, Son and Spirit until trinitarian baptism during which they were BOUND to baptize THREE TIMES. Father, Son and Spirit are NOT Names. Throughout the Bible EVERYTHING including baptism was done in the NAME of Jesus Christ--there IS no other name.

[linked image]


 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.111.145

Re: True.

October 25 2011, 9:58 PM 

Ken, sorry, you can't blow this off. Jesus, not Paul, commanded us to be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

I was baptized one time after this verse was read. I don't have a problem with one being baptized in the name of Jesus. It's all the same. However I do have a problem with you blowing off this verse.

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.67.153

Peter thought otherwise

October 25 2011, 11:44 PM 

Peter was an eye- and ear- witness.
Peter commanded to be baptized in the NAME of Jesus Christ.

Since the pagan understanding that the gods came in families, Jesus affirms that God is not a family: God the ONE God in heaven gave ALL authority that whatever we do we MUST do it in the name of the Lord.

If you don't grasp that

THESIS: the pagan gods came as father, mother, child. Thomas wanted to SEE the Father whom he would understand as Zeus in the temple

ANTITHESIS: If you have seen the son you have seen the father. Catholics understand that the real trinity is father, mother and son: that is because the spirit was considered as a female: Sophia in Proverbs.

The "formula" does not make any difference if you were not washed with water INTO the Word or school of Christ and not to get you a p;unched ticket on the joy bus to heaven.

Like it or not, most of use experienced "infant" baptism and were confirmed much later as DISCIPLES. Students do not attend worship observations: Jesus said the Kingdom will not be with religious observations.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Been Fleeced Again

October 25 2011, 10:41 PM 

Just goes to show you....people can hear but not listen. You show them the very Word of God and they still don't believe.

Matthew 12
31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

A DEFINITE DISTINCTION between the Holy Spirit and Jesus.


Wrong again Ken....

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.67.153

more

October 25 2011, 11:46 PM 

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently,
who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 1 Peter 1: 10

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ
which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ,
and the glory that should follow. 1 Peter 1: 11


But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 2 Cor 3:15

Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 2 Cor 3:16
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
are changed into the same image from glory to glory,
even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Cor 3:18

And because ye are sons,
God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son
into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Gal 4:6


I'll Bet the Spirit of Jesus Christ is named Jesus Christ?

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him.
And he said unto me, See thou do it not:
I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren
that have the testimony of Jesus:
worship God: for the testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.



 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Trinity, eh?

October 26 2011, 12:19 AM 

So you admit that the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Jesus are not the same?

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

The Trinitarian's Dilemmas Are Numerous

October 26 2011, 2:11 AM 

We have published a number of threads concerning the man- and Council- and papal-approved doctrine of the Trinity. The link to one of these threads is as follows:

Source: The Gift of A Holy Spirit means A Holy Mind

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Trinitarian's Dilemma No. 1 of ______

October 26 2011, 2:30 AM 

1) Bible speaks of "the spirit" OF the Father (Matt. 10:20)
2) Bible speaks of "the spirit" OF Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:9; I Pet. 1:11; Phil. 1:19)
3) Bible does NOT speak of "the spirit OF the Holy Spirit" as a 3rd person (NoRef. 99:999)

We can create a song about "The Trinitarian Fallacy" based on the passages above:

-------- Verse 1 ---------

Bible speaks of the spirit of your Father in heaven (1st Person, you say);
Bible speaks of the spirit of Jesus Christ His Son (2nd Person, you say);
Bible speaks of the spirit of The Holy Spirit (3rd Person, you say?);
Oh, no, the Bible does not -- for it's redundant.

-------- Verse 2 ---------

Our Father in heaven has a holy spirit; a Christian should too.
The Lord Jesus Christ has a holy spirit; a Christian should too.
The Holy Spirit has a holy spirit; but again it sounds redundant.
In reality, the spirit of the Father and His Son is HOLY.

OK, that's the message in song as man has the tendency to speed-read a post without thoroughly understand.

 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

FALSE TEACHING

October 26 2011, 9:45 AM 

1 Peter 1:2 "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of GOD THE FATHER, through the sanctifying work of THE SPIRIT, for obedience to JESUS CHRIST and sprinkling by his blood." Peter does not say the spirit of the Father or the spirit of Jesus but THE SPIRIT referencing THE HOLY SPIRIT. All in Christianity do not agree on instrumental music but all in Christianity agree on the trinity including Churches of Christ except for 2 false teachers named Donnie and Ken.

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.65.64

there are no uppercase Spirits in the Bible

October 26 2011, 4:23 PM 

1 Peter 1:2 "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of GOD THE FATHER, through the sanctifying work of THE SPIRIT, for obedience to JESUS CHRIST and sprinkling by his blood." Peter does not say the spirit of the Father or the spirit of Jesus but THE SPIRIT referencing THE HOLY SPIRIT.

1Pet. 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Faer
through sanctification of the spirit,
unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:


"The Holy Spirit" OF Christ does not sanctify us: that denies that God sanctifies us; OUR spirit is an UNholy spirit and because of the sacrifice OF JESUS OF NAZARETH -- whom God the Father made to be both Lord and Christ -- it is OUR spirit which needs to be made pure or holy.

Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.God the One Father planned that we be elected:

Kletos (g2822) klay-tos; from the same as 2821; invited, i.e. appointed, or (spec.) a saint: - called.
Klesis (g2821) klay'-sis; from a shorter form of 2564; an invitation (fig.): - calling.
Kaleo (g2564) kal-eh'-o; akin to the base of 2753; to "call" (prop. aloud, but used in a variety of applications, dir. or otherwise): - bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-) name (was [called).


He sanctifies OUR spirit into the "obedience and shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ.
When we obey that FORM or pattern OUR spiriits become a sanctification OF our spirit.

A sanctified spirit is:

Hagiasmos (g38) hag-ee-as-mos'; from 37; prop. purification, i.e. (the state) purity; concr. (by Hebr.) a purifier: - holiness, sanctification.

Paul defined it this way: A true heart is

Katharos (g2513) kath-ar-os'; of uncert. affin.; clean (lit. or fig.): - clean, clear, pure.

Let us draw near with a true HEART in full assurance of faith
having our HEART sprinkled from an evil conscience, [spirit]
and our bodies washed with pure water. Heb.10:22


The same Peter called it A good or clear conscience.

And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh,
but an appeal to God for A good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21


NOTICE THAT IT IS:

through sanctification OF the spirit, [OURS]

AND NOT "sanctification BY the Spirit."

NO ONE IN HISTORY BELIEVED THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD OR THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST OR THE SPIRIT OF ME WAS ANOTHER "PEOPLE."

THE LU SECT of the Chuurch of Christ and the GA invented the THREE PEOPLE family first articulated in 1938 at FHC.


 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.65.64

Part Two

October 26 2011, 4:59 PM 

All in Christianity do not agree on instrumental music but all in Christianity agree on the trinity including Churches of Christ except for 2 false teachers named Donnie and Ken.

MOST blogs are ANTI-church of Christ and have no trouble just repeating "scholars" but who often just deliberately misrepresent. John Mark Hicks must have broken his spirit trying to force Alexander Campbell into believing in the LU dogma that God is THREE persons each with their own centers of consciousness and each with their own special talent."

The Spirit of Christ WHICH sanctifies is HIS WORD: you have to be blind to miss that.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
....the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

In the NOT musical passages: Romans 15 spells out "that which is written"; Ephesians 5 defines using SPIRIT and in Colossians 3 Paul defined SPIRIT as the Word of Christ.

2Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because
....God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation
.... through sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth:
2Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,
....to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

At baptism God gives US A holy spirit or A good conscience. That also means A good consciousness or A Co-Perception of the Word of God. Paul told the Corinthians that they could not READ or HEAR the Word of God (the PATTERN ordained by Christ in Spirit in the wilderness)

http://www.piney.com/Alexander.Campbell.Earnest.Spirit.html

Alexander Campbell and others understand that A holy spirit is OUR unholy spirit which has been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ and not His "spirit."

This is...understood by every attentive reader. The original phrase is hagiasmos pneumatos, and is found only in II. Thess. ii. 13; I. Pet. i. 2. In both places it appears to refer to the sanctification of the spirit OF believers. It is literally rendered "sanctification [or holiness] OF spirit." There is no article in the original and no epithet that suggests the Holy Spirit in either passage.

God has chosen men to salvation through (or by) holiness OF spirit;
....not through the holiness of his Spirit,
....but through the holiness of their spirit.

When Jesus prayed (John xvii.) for the sanctification or holiness of his disciples,
....it was through the truth: "Sanctify them through the truth;
....thy word is truth."
The belief of the truth is, therefore, by Paul associated with this holiness or sanctification of spirit.

The Spirit of God is frequently denominated in these days, "the Sanctifier." Let it be granted that it is the Spirit that sanctifies or sets apart men to God, still it must be argued from the Record that he sanctifies them only through the truth or gospel believed.

A sanctified unbeliever is inconceivable;
....and, as "without holiness [or sanctification of spirit] no man can see the Lord;
....so, without faith, there can be no holiness, and no action acceptable to God.


First John defines this unique:
One God the Father (of all monotheists)
One Son Jesus Christ.

The "spirit" is the breath which flows between the ONE GOD ACTOR and the ONE human acted upon.

John says that if you DENY that then you are ANTI-Christ: this IS a salvation issue.

ALL evil in high places flows from preachers who THINK that their imagination is the Holy Spirit living inside making THEM a second incarnation.



 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.69.231

This is Donnie's chart.

October 26 2011, 7:37 PM 

I was going to make fun of the The--0--Lites who cannot or will not understand prepositions. For instance the sanctification OF the spirit CANNOT--but--is translated as sanctification BY the Holy Spirit.

Donnie brought everyone up to date on prepositions and I was going to ask about adjectives. Holy Spirit cannot be A NAME or define A "person with their own center of consciousness" but it IS frequently.

Donnie put this into a table: if you are not convinced then don't worry about it because MANY (most) are called but FEW (a puny number) are chosen: chosen or tested by fire.

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord." (Acts 3:19)


PARALLEL PASSAGES:
ACTS 2:38
ACTS 3:19
REQUIREMENT:
Repent
Repent
(Conjunction)
and
and
REQUIREMENT:
Be baptized...
Be converted
RESULT:
For [so that, toward, UNTO] the remission of sins
That your sins may be blotted out
RESULT:
And ye shall receive the gift of a holy spirit
When the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord
NOTICE:
When sins are remitted, one receives that gift of purity, that spirit of holiness, of being cleansed. [Note: this is a translation issue -- the expression being used to justify reference to the "Holy Spirit" as another "person" in the Godhead.] The word "holy" is an ADJECTIVE that describes the kind of spirit one has when the new birth is experienced. It is one's spirit that is MADE HOLY. Therefore, the gift referred to here is a spirit that is HOLY. When sins are blotted out, the conscience is clear; all guilt is removed. It is "when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord." It is the new birth.
NOT TO BE MISTAKEN:
  • It is NOT the "baptism of the Holy Ghost."
  • It does not make one a Pentecostal.
  • It does not make one charismatic.
  • It does not give one power to heal.
  • It does not give one the gift of gab (speaking in tongues).
  • It does not give one the power to lay hands on others.
  • It is NOT the "baptism of the Holy Ghost."
  • It does not make one a Pentecostal.
  • It does not make one charismatic.
  • It does not give one power to heal.
  • It does not give one the gift of gab (speaking in tongues).
  • It does not give one the power to lay hands on others.


 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Trinitarian's Dilemma No. 2 of ______

October 27 2011, 3:35 AM 

In response to my earlier post regarding "the spirit OF the Father" (Matt. 10:20) and "the spirit OF Jesus Christ" (Rom. 8:9; I Pet. 1:11; Phil. 1:19), Fred Whaley was so shocked at the supporting passages that he decided to reject the truth. Fred did not like at all the 2 verses of a song I wrote in a few minutes.

Fred's response was:
1 Peter 1:2 "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of GOD THE FATHER, through the sanctifying work of THE SPIRIT, for obedience to JESUS CHRIST and sprinkling by his blood." Peter does not say the spirit of the Father or the spirit of Jesus but THE SPIRIT referencing THE HOLY SPIRIT. All in Christianity do not agree on instrumental music but all in Christianity agree on the trinity including Churches of Christ except for 2 false teachers named Donnie and Ken.

Well, Fred, thanks for participating in the discussion of an important topic, instead of Jeff Walling's Gatlinburg Winterfest for the bored young people needing to be entertained by "Christian Rock" bands.

But let's learn together what the Scripture really says about "the spirit." There's so much to cover when we discuss this subject. Sometimes it's difficult to determine where to begin.

OK, let's start with your premise. You are stating that because the passage you quoted mentions "THE SPIRIT," it is your evidence that the such entity is the 3rd person in the man-made doctrine of THE TRINITY.

Just so I do not repeat myself needlessly, I would list the following numbered (for reference purposes) but not ordered items:

  1. Proper nouns that are names of persons are not preceded by an article ("a" or "the").
  2. Would you like to be addressed as Fred Whaley or "the Whaley"? Your choice.
  3. "The Spirit" (capitalized for you, since you're accustomed to seeing it that way) as an entity is not a proper noun or a proper name.
  4. "The Holy Spirit" (capitalized just for you) as an entity is not a name, either.
  5. The word "spirit" is a noun, singular neuter.
  6. The word "spirit" [in scriptural references] can mean "ghost, wind, life, mind."
  7. The word "holy" is an adjective, a description of God's spirit or mind.
  8. Let's look at it in human terms, using "A Beautiful Mind" as an example. Wasn't that a movie some years ago? Maybe, we should use the word "brilliant" instead of the word "beautiful." Here we go:
    -- The mind of Fred (Fred is the person, the "mind" is an entity in Fred's composition).
    -- The brilliant mind of Fred [that's only an assumption, alright?].
    -- The word "brilliant" is an adjective that identifies the kind of mind Fred has.
    -- The "mind" of Fred is not Fred himself, is it?
    -- The "brilliant mind" of Fred is not Fred himself, is it?
  9. You see, Fred, the spirit is frequently referred to in Scriptures in different ways [ignore the caps/no caps for now--that is a translation issue--just as much as an "it" or a "He" in reference to God's spirit]:
    -- "The Spirit OF God" (Genesis 1:2; Matthew 3:16)
    -- "The Spirit OF the Lord" (Isaiah 11:2; Acts 8:39)
    -- "Thy good spirit" (Nehemiah 9:20)
    -- "The Spirit OF the Lord God" (Isaiah 61:1)
    -- "His Holy Spirit" (Isaiah 63:10-11)
    -- "The Spirit OF your Father" (Matthew 10:20)
    -- "The Spirit" (John 1:32)
    -- "The holy Spirit OF God" (Ephesians 4:30)
  10. You are correct, Fred, in that "The Spirit" is listed -- and they all refer to the same entity known as God's spirit.
  11. Still, the spirit of the Lord is not a proper noun or name.
  12. Question: Who has or OWNS "the spirit" in "His holy spirit"?
I thought the list might turn out to be in any order. The list can be extended some more, but perhaps next time. I just want to summarize that in this example: "the nose of John" or "the big nose of John" is not John himself. Get it?

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.68.239

PART TWO: More on Baptism

October 27 2011, 2:23 PM 

I am ready to pronounce a LAW: Those who oppose the historic view of The Church of Christ in its essentials CAN NEVER grasp that:

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him:
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,
and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

A Disciple is a Christian: A Disciple is one devoted to seeking knowledge about the MIND of Christ or the SPIRIT of Christ. A Disciple will never fall for the folly that a preacher is ordained to FORMULATE a Scenic and Musical Presentation which they call a worship service.

God always MARKS those who CANNOT read beyond their sought for proof texts. Continuing with the table:

[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]

 
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Dave
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64.234.85.24

Clear as Mud

October 27 2011, 2:37 PM 

One thing that I have gathered by what you both (Donnie and Ken) have presented here.....you haven't presented anything new or enlightening on the subject. You have clarified nothing.

Was it God that hung on the cross?
Matthew 27
46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani? (which means My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?)

You say the Three are ONE, but you can't explain Matthew 27:46....

Matthew 12
31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

You say the Three are One but you cant say why Jesus makes a distinction between Jesus and the Holy Spirit in Matthew 12

Jesus CLEARLY and definitely states, in Matthew 12, that Himself and the Holy Spirit are different.

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.68.239

Re: Clear as Mud

October 27 2011, 3:15 PM 

Was it God that hung on the cross?
Matthew 27
46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani? (which means My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?)

You say the Three are ONE, but you can't explain Matthew 27:46....


Nope: the Term Father, Son and Spirit are well-understood views of the godhead including the Jews where Zeus, Hera, Dionysus or other "god families" were worshipped. Herod's Temple was devoted to Jupiter etal. In the beginning it was devoted "to the worship of the starry host.

THE ANTITHESIS: if Jesus was going to represent the TRUE Jehovah WHO is ONE, He would have to convince that:

The ONE GOD THE FATHER in heaven cannot be seen or heard or worshipped in houses or by the works of human hands. Jesus of Nazareth when God "made him to be both Lord and Christ" was the ONLY image of God and voice of God.

This was to DISPROVE that the ONE GOD in heaven was three, visible, audible members of a god family--after which churches become A Family of God.

Jesus AFFIRMED that if you see Him have seen the FATHER as imaged in Him. The Apostles were WITH the only Spirit when they were with HIM. He was NOT speaking of God, Jesus and Spirit person.

On the cross, the MAN Jesus of Nazareth TAUGHT YOU THE FACT: The Son, the Man Jesus appealed to the ONE GOD without any personal spirit as intercessor.

Jehovah God is the ONLY Elohim: Jehovah is not three people: The trinity is NOT God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit person. The trinity is Father, Son and Spirit ALL made known in ONE-SINGULAR person. Again, This 'triad' is the UNIVERSALLY PAGAN view which Jesus came to REFUTE.

1Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God OUR Saviour;
1Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved,
and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is ONE God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the MAN Christ Jesus;
1Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Gnostics cannot tolerate the idea that God represented His true nature as a frail, human person without a house to put the pillow He did not have.




 
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Fred Whaley
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173.162.22.85

Re: Clear as Mud

October 27 2011, 3:34 PM 

Ken dodged Dave's point about Matthew 12 and the distinction Jesus makes between blasphemy of him versus the Holy Spirit. Ken teaches false doctrine on both instrumental music and the Godhead. Ken is a change agent as he is trying to twist the holy scriptures to communicate what he wants them to mean. 99.999% of Churches of Christ and Baptists and Methodists and Presbyterians and Catholics teach that the Godhead is three persons and not two persons. Maybe the .001% are wrong on this?

Fred Whaley

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.69.231

There is ONE GOD: not three Gods who are united.

October 27 2011, 7:56 PM 

Ken dodged Dave's point about Matthew 12 and the distinction Jesus makes between blasphemy of him versus the Holy Spirit. Ken teaches false doctrine on both instrumental music and the Godhead. Ken is a change agent as he is trying to twist the holy scriptures to communicate what he wants them to mean. 99.999% of Churches of Christ and Baptists and Methodists and Presbyterians and Catholics teach that the Godhead is three persons and not two persons. Maybe the .001% are wrong on this?

First, I didn't say the GODHEAD was two persons: The divine communication is between ONE God and ONE person. God is not a person or "people." You don't NEED a separate person for a father to speak to His Son. God MADE TO BE Jesus of Nazareth both Lord and Christ and gave HIM all authority. We can't trust those who HEAR or SEE beyond the Word.

their is only ONE God the Father in heaven Who "thinks" and "breathes out."
There is one man Jesus Christ who mediates between GOD and MAN.

All of the "fullness" of the Godhead was caused to be manifested in the ONE MAN to prove a point.

The neo-Trinitarians flowing out of LU and John Mark Hicks defines THREE God persons "each with their own centers of consciousness." "They" NEED this to communicate" says John Mark. That is called Tritheism or polytheism. No historic Trinitarian or Restoration leader failed to recognize that The ONE GOD has within Him His Own Wisdom, Spirit and Word but these are not LU's "people."

The classical trinitarians used the word PERSONAE which means masks: God makes HIMself known in various ways since He has no name like us. God is most often a hyphenated word which defines how and through whom He Works.

I ANSWERED DAVE ABOVE.

Remember that the ROCK that followed Israel was Christ and all of the prophets inspired by the SPIRIT OF CHRIST are defined as that upon which the Spirit reign of the Messiah would be built. That includes the prophecies made more certain by Jesus of Nazareth who now reigns as the MAN between God and man. The Spirit of Christ repudiated the Civil-Military-Clergy which foundation the changelings build THEIR church. The Spirit of Christ was HOLY (adjective).

First Premise: The changelings (right and left) claim that God commanded the sacrificial system even though Stephen says God ABANDONED them to worship the starry host.

Second Premise: The Holy Spirit of Christ in the prophets said that God DID NOT command the sacrifices and burnt offerings which destroyed tens of thousands of God's lovely creatures.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox
.....is as if he slew a man;
he that sacrificeth a lamb,
.....as if he cut off a dogs neck;
he that offereth an oblation,
.....as if he offered swines blood;
he that burneth incense,
.....as if he blessed an idol.
Yea, they have chosen their own ways,
.....and their soul delighteth in their abominations.


Conclusions: Jer 23:17 They say still unto them that despise me,
Despise is blasphemy.
The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace;
and they say unto every one that walketh
after the imagination of his own heart,
No evil shall come upon you.


NEXT: This "noise" never called music was to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter:

Jeremiah 11:19 But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered.

Devise, Cogito from your own mind, chants or machinery:.
Perfumed with Syrian essences
And wreathed with roses, while we may,
Lie drinking? Bacchus puts to shame
The cares that waste us. Where's the slave
To quench the fierce Falernian's flame
With water from the passing wave?
Who'll coax coy Lyde from her home?
Go, bid her take her ivory lyre,
The runaway, and haste to come,
Her wild hair bound with Spartan tire.
Carmen , nis, n. (old form cas-men , Varr. L. L. p. 86 Bip.) [Sanscr. šasto declaim, praise; cf.: camilla, censeo],
I. a tune, song; poem, verse; an oracular response, a prophecy; a form of incantation (cf.: cano, cantus, and canto).
socialia carmina, id. H. 12, 139: barbaricum, id. M. 11, 163.With allusion to playing on the cithara [guitar]: hoc carmen hic tribunus plebis non vobis sed sibi intus canit, Cic. Agr. 2, 26, 68


We proved that the HOLY SPIRIT spoke through the prophets and the words of Jesus which he called spirit"

FIRST PROOF:

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently,
who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 1 Peter 1: 10

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ
which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ,
and the glory that should follow. 1 Peter 1: 11


SECOND PROOF:

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 2 Cor 3:15

Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 2 Cor 3:16
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit OF the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
are changed into the same image from glory to glory,
even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Cor 3:18

And because ye are sons,
God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son
into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Gal 4:6


I'll Bet the Spirit of Jesus Christ is named Jesus Christ?


THIRD PROOF:

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him.
And he said unto me, See thou do it not:
I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren
that have the testimony of Jesus:
worship God: for the testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.

You can speak against the human Jesus of Nazareth, but if you SPEAK AGAINST the Word of God you blaspheme the Holy Spirit of Christ as the Words of the ONE GOD in heaven.

Jesus will not need to pass judgment on those who SAY when He has NOT SAID:

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not,
I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me,
and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him:
the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


That is because He said "My Words ARE Spirit and Life." Those who devise DEVICES (machinery or songs) which are NOT the Word of Christ in the prophets and made perfect by Jesus of Nazareth" are the ones using BURNING ANIMALS WITH INSTRUMENTAL NOISE: Christ in the Spirit says that they are blasphemers. They have free will: but if they decide to SELL THEIR BODIES and SAY when Christ has not said will never be forgiven.






    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.69.231 on Oct 27, 2011 8:35 PM


 
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Sonny
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99.186.93.107

Re: There is ONE GOD: not three Gods who are united.

October 27 2011, 9:11 PM 

Brother Sublett, I welcome an open and respectful discussion on this significant matter. You present a view of God I have never heard. Historically, yours is a fifth view on the subject of "the Godhead." Here are the four views put forth by various Christian thinkers. (Polytheism that you also reference is not on the specifics of "the Godhead" in Scripture but is an alternative view to monotheism.)

1. Arianism
2. Modalism
3. Tritheism
4. The Trinity

Arianism states that Jesus did not always exist. Tritheism says there are 3 different gods. Modalism says the one god changes roles from father, later to son, and finally to spirit.

The trinity says there are three persons who are all fully God/deity. There are four statements that are all necessary to explain this prominent doctrine in Christianity.

A. There is one God.
B. The Father is fully God/deity, and is distinct from the Son and the Spirit.
C. The Son is fully God/deity, and is distinct from the Father and the Spirit.
D. The Spirit is fully God/deity, and is distinct from the Father and the Son.

While the latin word trinitas is not in the bible, the concept is. There are three persons who are all fully God in nature/essence, and yet, are distinct beings/persons. Furthermore, while this view is more complex and is more of a mystery, such should be expected of "God." That is, that He is more complicated to fathom, not less. While man has tried to simplify God with various analogies, all are imperfect illustrations.

Finally, of the four historical views listed above, each tries to explain a relationship involving three separately referenced beings in Scripture. Your view (a fifth view), is drastically different because you do not accept there existing three beings but only one being as Father in heaven and as Jesus on earth (if I understand correctly).

Feel free to comment on any of the above. Either way, I do have two questions for you for which I am interested to learn.
1. How long have you held this position?
2. How many people do you know who believe your position?

Respectfully,

Sonny

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.69.231

Re: There is ONE GOD: not three Gods who are united.

October 27 2011, 10:32 PM 

There is another view called

Monotheism: I believe in the One God the Father of all things.
His Spirit is His Breath
His Son is His Word.

Jesus of Nazareth was "a body prepared for me" meaning Christ to take on the form of a servant. God vested full authority in Jesus of Nazareth: He made Him to be Both Lord and Christ. He acknowledged Him as His Son after He obeyed in baptism. I believe that whatever we do in word or deed we should do in the name (name and authority) of Jesus Christ. He is the Image of God: the Light from God: He is a visible and audible "God among us" because He did not speak on His own. I don't understand all of that but Alexander Campbell affirms that Jesus of Nazareth was not the Word of God in the past: in these last days God's Word is through His Son and He is the only one God prepared to speak for Him. Jesus still lives and "abides" in those who keep His commandments and 1 John 2 says that Jesus Christ is the "another Comforter" He spoke about in John 14. That is because He returned to God and received His Holy (adjective) State and it was He that "poured out what ye see and hear" at Pentecost. He can still be audible and visible to Paul to qualify Him to be an apostle to be guided into all truth: Jesus promised that HE would appear to Paul to comfort and guide Him into all truth: He did not promise to send a separate spirit person.

Ooops!

I forgot Wisdom, Sophia who is a she.

Speaking of God's Wisdom, understanding, knowledge, discretion, etal

Proverbs 3:19
....The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth;
....by understanding hath he established the heavens.
Proverbs 3:20 By his knowledge the depths are broken up,
....and the clouds drop down the dew.
Proverbs 3:21 My son, let not them depart from thine eyes:
....keep sound wisdom and discretion:

Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way,
.... before his works of old.
Proverbs 8:23 I was set up from everlasting,
....from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Proverbs 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth;
....when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Proverbs 8:25 Before the mountains were settled,
....before the hills was I brought forth:
Proverbs 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields,
....nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there:
....when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Proverbs 8:28 When he established the clouds above:
....when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Proverbs 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree,
....that the waters should not pass his commandment:
....when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Proverbs 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him:
....and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Proverbs 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
....and my delights were with the sons of me

I grew up with the Gospel Advocate, H. Leo Boles, Trithism: I learned it and taught it.
After Korea and College I moved to Seattle: became a teacher, deacon and elder. The preacher denied that the Spirit OF Christ was another "people." I had trouble with that until I moved back to Murfreesboro, Tn and prepared lesson material for the adult classes on the Holy Spirit. That's when I began to catch on--when I began to read whole thought patterns instead of looking up verses in the Lexicon.

In 1995 we retired to Hohenwald, Tn and they were singing (sanging) about:

Woursh-uping the Futher
Woursh-uping Je-Zeus {hail Zeus} and
Woursh-uping the Huly Spurt.
I noticed people folding their song books and hanging their heads.

Only in these latter days have people evil enough to lie, cheat and steal the church house of widows to turn their "school of the Word" into a "theater for holy entertainment (Donnie's church) have dared to assert that the spirit lives inside of their carnal bodies.

My estimation is about half of the church of Christ preachers believe in the literal indwelling of a literal Holy Spirit Person. Most of them deny that they know anything they did not read in the Written Word of the Living Word. I have done several forums and there are many non-trinitarian groups out there in the "three separated people sense." In any case I can't worry about what people believe if I am going to be a disciple of Christ.

From sermons and reading the long lists on the internet I am convinced that they have not read the context or even looked at the Bible to glean their lists of what the "spirit" does.


Work really hard before you are ready to repudiate this:

1Timothy 2:5
....For there is one God,
....and one mediator between God and men,
....the man Christ Jesus;
1Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Go back and grasp that T.Campbell wrote that those who think of three literal persons say that there are THREE GODS. John Mark Hicks speaking for the LU-Gospel Advocate view says that THEY each have THEIR OWN Center of Consciousness. That, I believe answers to first John's definition of ANTI-Christ because it needs to supliment the work of the human man Jesus of Nazareth.

If the massed multitudes believe something it is probably wrong with little or no "church" as A School of the Word.






    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.69.231 on Oct 27, 2011 11:40 PM
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.69.231 on Oct 27, 2011 10:52 PM


 
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Sonny
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99.186.93.107

Re: There is ONE GOD: not three Gods who are united.

October 28 2011, 12:00 AM 

Interesting bro. Thanks for sharing! While I disagree with your view, I respect and am willing to continue discussing and listening to your perspective of God's Word.

On one point, trinitarians are also simultaneously advocating monotheism and not polytheism. One God/Deity/Substance/Essence in 3 persons/beings.

Whereas, Arianism claims that the Father later created the Son Jesus, the Trinity view believes Jesus is fully God and has always been.

Likewise, whereas tritheism communicates three separate gods, the Trinity advocates one God in unity and substance that is tri-personal as Father, Son, and Spirit.

Lastly, modalism teaches monotheism but that God changed masks from Father later to Son and finally to Holy Spirit. Again, the trinity on the other hand upholds that the Father, Son and Spirit have all existed three-in-one simultaneously from everlasting to everlasting.

A blessed night to all.

-Sonny

 
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Dave
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64.234.85.24

One God.....One Jesus Christ..

October 27 2011, 10:40 PM 

Actually, Ken....you cemented the thought with that Scripture.

1Timothy 2:5
....For there is one God,
....and one mediator between God and men,
....the man Christ Jesus;

Timothy makes ANOTHER clear distinction between the ONE God and the ONE Jesus Christ


1+1 still equals two, right?

Get your calculator out Ken.

Don't trust this to counting it on your hands.

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.69.231

Re: One God.....One Jesus Christ..

October 27 2011, 11:00 PM 

One Apple and One Orange does not calculate to two of either.

There is ONE GOD BEING Who is on the SENDING side.
There is ONE MAN Being Who is on the RECEIVING side.

There are not two God Beings nor two man beings qualified to be MEDIATOR.

Sound and radio waves are invisible and inaudible: ONLY if you are the designated RECEIVER can you detect the invisible waves.

Your task is "can you believe that the man Jesus whom God made to be both Lord and Christ" can wage war against Satan in the form of man.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.69.231 on Oct 27, 2011 11:03 PM


 
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Dave
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64.234.85.24

You Can't Read....It is a Sign That Listening Has Been Taken From You

October 28 2011, 1:05 AM 

There is ONE GOD, but if you could read you would see that the Scriptures didn't say ONE MAN, but Son of Man.....that being Jesus.

Try it again.....this time mathematize it with the use of your toes if you have trouble using your hands.

Or perhaps you know what it says but because of preconceived notions.....you just don't care?

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Dave's and the Trinitarian's Mathematics

October 28 2011, 3:12 AM 

A brief summary of the mathematics of the Trinity creed or view:

The "person" being attributed to each of the Trinity members is that each one is a "man," since not one of the Trinitarians is likely to believe or be convinced that our Father in heaven is a female or is a neuter gender.

Trinitarians believe:

(1) That the Father is a person (man)
(2) That the Son is also a person (man)
(3) That the Holy Spirit is also a person (man)
(4) Therefore, accordingly, there are three persons (or three men) in one.


In order to make it clearer from the Trinity creed's standpoint that none of the three persons is a female, they might as well revise the verses in the hymn "Holy, Holy, Holy"

(1) FROM: "God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity" [which might include "female"]
(2) TO: "God in Three Men, Blessed Trinity" [which leaves no one to doubt]


Thankfully, Alexander Campbell and the other great men of the Restoration Movement were insightful enough to see the fallacy of the Trinity doctrine. Even the early publishers and editors of our hymnbooks noted the fallacy to the point that they accepted the revision of the hymn "Holy, Holy, Holy" where the verses changed:

(1) FROM: "God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity"
(2) TO: "God overall, and blest eternally"


Again, the word "spirit" is a noun, singular neuter; the word "holy" is an adjective. "The Spirit" or "the holy Spirit of God" (Epheians 4:30) simply identifies God whose "spirit" is "holy." The preposition "OF" in the expression "holy Spirit OF God" simply signifies possession or belongingness.

We can go on and on with examples of ownership.

One: "the mind of David Fields" or "the brilliant mind OF David Fields." The "mind" of Dave or the "brilliant mind" of Dave belongs to Dave. And the "mind" of Dave or the "brilliant mind" of Dave is NOT Dave himself.

Two: "the nose of Barbra Streisand" or "the cute nose of Barbra Streisand." The "nose" of Barbra Streisand or the "cute nose" of Barbra Streisand belongs to her. And the "nose" of B.S. or the "cute nose" of B.S. is NOT Barbra Streisand herself.

How much more simply can we explain "the holy Spirit OF God" in Eph. 4:13 and other related passages?

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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