Re: Hey Tom!
|November 20 2011, 11:14 AM |
Bro. Dave, thanks for your note on my thoughts. I guess we do disagree (and that is ok) on this site being anti-Church of Christ. I view it as being pro-1950's Church of Christ. This site represents a disagreement among family members (at least on the "Madison" thread) and should be contained to discussions among CofC members. (The "More Churches" thread certainly has allowed other denominations.) This past week, I was in Dallas and made the drive back and forth from San Antonio. I have been making this drive since I was a child. Over the years, I have watched several Church of Christ congregations along the way and in Dallas itself. From my observations, over the past 10 years, there have been at least 3 "sound" congregations (meaning adhering to the 1950's way of doing things) that have shut their doors. Other congregations which are more open to change are growing and expanding. It is the normal growing pangs of any religious group. Time will take care of itself and we will still be alright. Let us have our discussions as family members and move on to better things.
Re: Hey Tom!
|November 20 2011, 11:15 AM |
Dave, I forgot to ask you to send me an email. firstname.lastname@example.org
Re: Hey Tom!
|November 20 2011, 7:10 PM |
Since church websites are as public as are religious fora, Dave's leadership info and email address are at these links:
It seems that the impression I get from the words, beliefs and activities of our often-discussed "change agents" and their followers is UNLIKE what I see and read about this congregation of God's people. I like what it proclaims, historically speaking:
"We have an appeal to go back to the Bible. We have a plea to speak where the Bible speaks and to remain silent where the Bible is silent.As many of us know by now, the change agents have reversed the intended, original meaning of "the law of silence." The change agents now say: "God approves or authorizes that which He hasn't said 'NOT TO.'"
Blaspheming the demand for the OLD PATHS
|November 18 2011, 5:01 PM |
The Spirit of Christ defined the Church of Christ as the Kingdom of God in perfect inclusive and exclusive detail. The preaching class have no background in the story line and the Prophets because the once-Christian colleges have no knowledge or interest in the PROPHETS as the ANTITHESIS of the Civil-Military-Clergy national system abandoned to perform the NATIONAL worship of the starry hostt.
Those who promote instrumenta and badmouth the CENI principle do not have a remote clue about the meaning of the ekklesia-synagogue nor about what disciples of Christ are commanded to do when they assemble at a church (ekklesia-synagogue) of Christ. "Fellowship between a school of true science and the school of The Flat Earth Society" would appear to be evidence of an insane.
Christ in Jeremiah etal (missed that getting your Phd, huh) always define the TWO PATHS all people tending to flock follow:
First, the natural people use their own imagination and because of a sense of utter lostness work REALLY hard at religious observations including music to Appease the gods and try to earn the gods (goddesses) approval.
Second, those OF FAITH and OF TRUTH (the masculine-patriarchal) are commanded to teach the Word (only) of God (only) as it has been taught. They impose no LEGALISM such as performance singing, playing instruments, slick rhetoric or drama because they REST securely in God's grace. No, simple simon NOT using musical instruments as machines as props is NOT LEGALISM. A legalists builds a whole scheme (scam) of theology even when they know that it will destroy the REST of those who know Whom they have believ-ed."
Whatever you are doing based on your own imagination or to GROW BIG:
If we let Christ do His CENI He will be very carful to take you OUT of the massed multitudes to accept the gospel of "come to Me all ye that labor and heavy laden (music) and I will give you REST. Rest means rest FROM whatever comes out people's simple mind.
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 126.96.36.199 on Nov 18, 2011 8:14 PM|
Keep Clawing Donnie
|November 21 2011, 10:06 AM |
Donnie said "Dave and the change agents are anti-church of Christ because they teach that musical instruments enhance "worship" and are God-authorized because the Scripture doesn't say "not to.""
Dave has NEVER taught that musical instruments are God-authorized. That is untrue. Donnie suggesested that the PA system, although unauthorized could enhance the worship service and then I suggested that, like a PA system, a piano could do the same. Now Donnie wants it to sound like I am saying that the piano is now "authorized." It is just Donnie trying futilely to put words in my mouth. It is his only path since the Truth is not with him. I have ALSO NEVER used the phrase that God said "not to." That would also be untue. I have confronted Donnie with that allegation before and he never could prove that I said or even suggested such; therefore simply untrue.....again.
Donnie also said "Dave and the change agents are anti-church of Christ because, unbeknownst to them, they have replaced, removed or modified: God's pattern for the church; God's plan of redemption; God's directives for NT Christians."
Donnie will not admit that the church we have today looks nothing like the first century church. Donnie permits four-part harmony. The church did not employ four-part harmony. Four-part harmony is a man-made tradition that Donnie (and myself) approve of. The same can be said of meeting in church buildings instead of homes, using a PA system instead of the natural voice, etc., etc. I have always said that the traditions of man are not wrong in and of themselves. The wrong comes in when one man thinks HIS traditions are better than anothers. Traditions are wrong when they clash with God's Word.
Instrumental music is nothing more than another tradition that some Christians use to worship God with WHILE singing. The singing is still adhered to but just accompanied with an instrument. Our congregation has decided to stay with a cappela. I make Donnie angry because he believes that since I don't condemn those who use instrumental music then I must condone it. This site is living proof that a person can make any sort of false allegations that they want against individuals or even whole congregations. Their day is coming.
This site is a cancer.
Re: Keep Clawing Donnie
|November 21 2011, 8:25 PM |
On several occasions, Dave has called this site a "cancer." On several occasions, Anonymous has remarked about all the catfighting that goes on between Dave and Donnie. Donnie keeps "approving" Dave's "cancer" remarks, which contribute nothing substantial to the topic at hand, yet Donnie says that remarks about catfighting "must stop," because he believes it contributes nothing substantial to the topic at hand.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the double standard at work here, which gives this site a BAD NAME.
Re: Keep Clawing Donnie
|November 21 2011, 10:08 PM |
At least Bill has stopped referring to himself in the third person. Perhaps things are looking up around here!
Response to Dave's "Clawing" Message:
|November 23 2011, 3:26 AM |
Response to Dave's "Clawing" Message:
- Dave now denies that he has ever taught "that musical instruments are God-authorized." Well, Dave, you have always defended the use of such inanimate, lifeless musical devices in the assembly even to this date. In fact, most of your posts have been: (a) in defense of instrumental music, besides (b) about your condemnation of this website [of which you are a partaker].
From your denial, we can draw one of two conclusions: (a) that you now agree with me and the truth in which we'll never find that God has authorized mechanical music in the assembly, or (b) that the opposite is true -- man is indeed capable of authorizing that which God has not authorized.
- However, even with that denial, Dave continues and will continue to teach that God does not disapprove the use of mechanical worship in the assembly. Again, just what is the opposite of "disapprove"; just what is the opposite of "unauthorized"? You may not use the exact expression "not to" or "do not do" -- but in your heart and mind, it is still the same logic, i.e., you are looking for a "thou shalt not."
- You are the one who keeps making the PA system and the piano analogy to "compute." It does not compute. In the assembly or gathering of saints, the loud speaker systems may be needed so that the sermon deliverer can be heard. On the other hand, the progressive church's CHOIR (Praise Team) is unnecessary, controversial and divisive. Even worse is when the CHOIR members hold their individual microphones as they perform to and for the congregants.
- The New Testament church today follows the same biblical pattern as God's family in terms of its structure and organization, the conversion process in which one outside of Christ is redeemed from sins and becomes God's child, the principles and directives by which members of His body follow and live. These are the New Testament teachings that the change agents are busily undoing as they now reject the patterm and make every attempt to restructure the church, modify God's plan of redemption, adulterate the principles and directives for Christian living.
And here, Dave is literally looking at and analyzing other things. There's news for you. We are not speaking of church buildings, pews, toilets, song books, the suit and tie, baptistery, etc.
Rather, we are speaking here of teachings, principles, directives and doctrines that we find in the New Testament in contrast to the those of the change agents and their denominational mentors.
God OUTLAWED all HYPOCRITIC ARTS! Old Paths C
|November 23 2011, 12:51 PM |
NO ONE CAN BE A DISCIPLE AND SAY THAT GOD DID NOT CONDEMN PRIVATE OPINION (DOUBTFUL DISPUTATIONS) AND ALL OF THE PLEASURE ACTIONS.
If you say that God commanded or did not outlaw instruments when we go to BIBLE CLASS (only).
And Christ says just the opposite.
Then Christ in Jeremiah 23 says that you blasphemy the Holy (adjective) Spirit of Christ who outlawed the performing arts as noise makers beginning with the Church of Christ in the wilderness.
According to Philo, "the gods of the pagans exploit this weakness of men. For the sake of a better effect, and with the intention of more easily cheating their devotees, they have set their lies to melodies, rhythms and meters."
"In pagan traditions, musical instruments are invented by gods or demi-gods, such as titans. In the Bible, credit is assigned to antediluvian patriarchs, for example, the descendants of Cain in Genesis 4:21. There is no other biblical tradition about the invention of musical instruments." (Freedman, David Noel, Bible Review, Summer 1985, p. 51)
Re: Article on Liberal Snobism: Grace Centered Magazine
|November 23 2011, 9:49 PM |
The direct commands span the "singing and harp playing prostitute" in the garden of Eden to the Babylon Mother of Harlost (Rev 17) who uses speakers, singers, instrument players and craftsmen (theater builders and stage managers. (Maybe makeup people praiseteam). Paul called them Sorcerers.
Christ promised another REST day in the prophets and defined both REST and BURDEN exactly as the Law of Moses.
The Laded burden was a form of songs "which creates spiritual anxiety in religious rituals."
Paul has defined the SELF pleasure in Romans 15 using a word which excludes all of the hypocrites and hypocritic arts: preaching, singing, playing instruments, acting. This is the same message as in Ephesiand 4 where the elders have the duty to EXCLUDE all of the performing arts. Common sense agrees that this must be done before you can conduct what Paul called "synagogue" which was and is a School (only) of the Word (only) of Christ.
We know that to be true by Paul's ANTITHESIS. Not even Jesus spoke on His own: He revealed only which the Father in heaven told Him to say. Jesus in Holy Spirit form spoke only what Jesus in the flesh taught. Paul taught only what the Lord as "Jesus of Nazareth) SPOKE to Him after qualifying Him by appearing to Him. When "all that applies to life and godliness" has been supplied, only those not OF TRUTH or not OF FAITH need any more liberty to enhance the unlawful collection plate.
Jesus says THESE WORDS will judge us in the last days. The OLD PATHS are ways in which to walk: there is nothing that can happen in A School of Christ connected with "culture" that a disciple of Christ would NEED or WANT. The Old Paths are clearly That Which is Written for our learning; Peter says that anyone who does not SPEAK that left "memory" is a False Teacher.
The Amos and Hezekiah PATTERN set up as a trap was the Marzeah or the Agapae.
In pagan traditions, musical instruments are invented by gods or demi-gods, such as titans. In the Bible, credit is assigned to antediluvian patriarchs, for example, the descendants of Cain in Genesis 4:21. There is no other biblical tradition about the invention of musical instruments." (Freedman, David Noel, Bible Review, Summer 1985, p. 51). (Proof Here).
And Jubal HANDLED musical instruments WITHOUT AUTHORITY. In the Babylonian tablets version He used musical instruments to collect all of YOUR animals, take them to His cities and the SELL them back to you.
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 188.8.131.52 on Nov 24, 2011 10:40 AM|
False Accusations from Donnie are Old News
|November 24 2011, 2:48 AM |
Of all that senseless diatribe of yours and numbered points of false accusations.... I will only give you the honor of answering one statement that you made. You said "In fact, most of your posts have been: (a) in defense of instrumental music, besides (b) about your condemnation of this website [of which you are a partaker]."
I want you and anyone else to make sure that this is known......I am NOT nor NEVER have been, nor EVER will be a partaker color> of this site....no matter how many times you say it. I am a fellow (one of many, including those at Madison where you attend) condemner color> of this site.....not a partaker. Even you, Donnie, can know the difference between the two. If you have something against a brother, an elder, a congregation.....you go to them. You DO NOT bring it here for all the heathen world to see. It is a sin. It is Scriptural.
Re: False Accusations from Donnie are Old News
|November 24 2011, 5:26 AM |
This website exists to expose the change agents operating in the brotherhood. The Madison congregation is only one of those they have victimized. The adverse effect? Division in the congregation that began with the eldership, many of whom resigned or left. Then half of the membership left, many of whom sought fellowship somewhere else.
How many times does it need to be explained to you?
I know how enamored you are with the change agents and their efforts to transform the church that Christ built into Community Church-ism. But that is not my problem. It is your problem.
You cannot deny the fact that you're always there to defend the practice of operating mechanical music in the assembly. Virtually all congregations of the church of Christ do not indulge in musical worship, and here you are in defense of using inanimate and lifeless music devices in the assembly. Your congregation does not use instrumental music, but, again, you're quick to defend its use.
Whenever one submits posts to be published for debate or discussion, he is a participant, a partaker. If he considers this website good, then he is a partaker or a participant. If he considers this website evil, then he is a partaker or a participant just the same -- and this happens to be your case.
From the Sidelines
|November 24 2011, 9:25 AM |
[. . .]
The above post about "catfighting" was catfighting in itself and non-constructive. Another post by the same author, with a similar message, has also been deleted.
|This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 184.108.40.206 on Nov 24, 2011 1:38 PM|
Old Paths and Music
|November 24 2011, 7:46 PM |
The Bible is filled with the fact that seeking the OLD PATHS is NOT seeking to hold on to the traditionalism of the '50s.
The "Old Paths" hurt word most often intends to mock those who refuse to see worship as performance preaching, singing and playing instruments. That is based on either ignorance of the facts or just an immature attempt to hurt those who refuse to follow their NEW PATHS which were first trodden around the towers of Babylon and the same ziggurat in Jerusalem.
History is certain that people use musical performance "to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter" and to FORCE others to build their temple or feed the temple musicians which in the Greek system were called PARASITES. Then and now they produce nothing of value and disturb even those whose minds are jittered by complex music and the MOTION of not-really-talented boy childs wanting to suck up all of the attention (worship) for themselves. Many of the DIVERTED churches from the 1860's onward called in the band when the imposed too much debt on people against their will.
This is THE WAY people afflict you and take you captive to keep THEIR institution from failing.
Don't get it? That's fine: the command of Christ was to GO and not worry about the increase.
|November 24 2011, 8:02 PM |
Donnie said "Whenever one submits posts to be published for debate or discussion, he is a participant, a partaker. If he considers this website good, then he is a partaker or a participant. If he considers this website evil, then he is a partaker or a participant just the same -- and this happens to be your case."
Donnie, No....and, again....No.
If I am EXPOSING you and your wicked site here then I am NOT nor ever will be a participant. It is called LOGIC! Comprende?
How many articles or books are published every year where the author does or doesn't consent to its use? He/she doesn't have to consent to its use. It is called public domain.....ever heard of such? As long as the author is recognized as being the originator of said document or quote, then it can be used most anywhere.
If the democrats use an article from Newt Gingrich, is he then a participant of the democratic party? I submit my concerns and postulates for and about you and this wicked site and you post them. Do you have to? No! As in the past, there are certain replies and concerns that I have submitted and you have decided not to post. You just decided before this post to not post a reply from Bill Crump. Good for you. If you care to continue to post my concerns that speak of the Truth and validity that that this site is indeed wicked.....then again.....good for you, but it does NOT make me a participant of this site.
Logic 101 -- Illogical
|November 25 2011, 1:09 AM |
You're absolutely correct -- that we do not have to post your messages. But we do. Simple!!! Your concerns and postulates are not about me, but about the change agents' and your agenda being unacceptable to this website and to the church of Christ worldwide.
Why do you think your messages and those of the change agents are published here no matter how anti-church of Christ they are? For the simple reason -- exposure!!!!!! Time and again, this site has pointed out consistently how destructive the change agents really are to the church, as well as their disciples like you.
Dave, you're no Newt Gingrich, a conservative in the political world whereas you have a progressive, liberal mindset when it comes to certain New Testament teachings and principles.
Dave, this conservative website has no semblance to the liberal, progressive democratic party, either.
So, your logic 101 premise is illogical.
Overall, you're probably the only one occasional condemner of this website. Contrary to your feelings about your own self, that certainly explains your antagonism towards the church of Christ and its stand for New Testament teachings. Conclusion: you and the change agents are the ones going against the grain -- not ConcernedMembers.
From the Sidelines
|November 25 2011, 10:09 AM |
[. . .]
This website's exposure of the destructive nature of the change agents is no trivial matter, but your "catfight" with this website is. You know fully well that this site is always ready to publish anyone's doctrinal issue to be discussed.
|This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Nov 25, 2011 12:40 PM|
Re: Logic 101 -- Illogical
|December 2 2011, 1:53 PM |
FRED SURMISES THAT MAYBE DONNIE CRUZ IS MORE OF A SUPPORTER OF HERMAN CAIN?
Here is the meaning of Logical.
|November 25 2011, 3:38 PM |
If I am EXPOSING you and your wicked site here then I am NOT nor ever will be a participant. It is called LOGIC! Comprende?
Spiritual worship is RATIONAL Worship is IN the PLACE of the human spirit made into A holy spirit after baptism. The power is the ability to read the Word (LOGOS) of God which is absolutely sacrificed in order to become a Doctor of the Law or a Theologian: making a science and profession out of the FREE word God commanded to be the ONLY resource for the School of the Word or, in the words of the Campbells as the meaning or "restoration": A School of Christ.
The meaning of a Disciple is that you accept that fact or be tasked to "do music (mystery) to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter" which was prophesied and fulfilled on Jesus. He called the Scribes and Pharisees who were defacto zealots by naming them, Hypocrites where Christ the Spirit identified performance preaching, singing and playing instruments. Also anyone who CAN be seeker sucked to enable these people are hypocrites or just pretending.
Furthermore the MYTHOS was universally known to mark the SOPHISTS (performers) which also marked the gender-bent (plato).
The Logos marked the masculine, rationally who always voted to SEND OUT the flute girls or harp-girls who forced people to be "drunk on wine" IN ORDER that as gentlemen they could hold a discussion (ekklesia or synagogue). Of course if you are of the Crooked Race--the Mythos--then it may not be possible to recognize the truth and are therefore reduced to girlish whining.
By absolute definition Christ prophesied that their would be no Canaanite or trader in the house of God and Paul in 1 Corinthians 1 defines that there CANNOT be any such people in A Church of Christ: Revelation 17-18 shows that the tooty-fruities will be removed along with the speakers, singers and instrument players at the SAME TIME the Lamps are removed: John called them Sorcerers with instrumentnal accompaniment while the PATTERNISTS rest on the Soothsayers with instrumental accompaniment.
A Mythos / Sophoist CANNOT read and understand the thought pattern more than one phrase out of context. One of the ancient facts confirmed by the Gabby Giffords case is that she could SING a sentence but not SPEAK the sentence. That is because (everyone always understood) that singing uses a totally different part of the bran than speaking. MUSIC bypasses the LOGICAL mind and no one in history has adopted instrumental music (with lots of discord) without NEEDING to deceive the people and convince them that their PERFORMANCE is worthy of A WAGE and their temple as the best PORTAL to the gods. Fools LOVE to be fooled says Paul.
[347d] such is their lack of education--put a premium on flute-girls by hiring the extraneous voice of the flute at a high price, and carry on their intercourse by means of its utterance.
But where the party consists of thorough gentlemen who have had a proper education,
you will see neither flute-girls nor dancing-girls nor harp-girls,
but only the company contenting themselves with their own conversation,
and none of these fooleries and frolics--
each speaking and listening decently in his turn,
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime
were written for our learning, that we through patience
and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Romans 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation
grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth
glorify God, even the Father
of our Lord Jesus Christ.
WHY IS IT THAT THE MUSICATORS KNOW NOT A SINGLE PREACHER-SCHOLAR WHO CAN OR WILL AFFIRM THAT TO BE AN INCLUSIVE-EXCLUSIVE DIRECT COMMAND?
The Correct Call....You are OUT!
|November 25 2011, 6:34 PM |
Donnie, if it is a left and you call it a right.....will that mean it is a right then?
If you call it white when it is black.....does that then make it white?
You are anti-church of Christ when you are the one who condemn churches of Christ, and yes, even the very brethren that attend the very Madison church of Christ that you attend, and YOU are the the antagonist and enemy of the church of our Lord Jesus Christ...no matter how many times you try to turn it around otherwise.
Donnie, why am I the only one who continually condemns this site? I would like to break it down LOGICALLY again for you. I am ONE of very few who posts replies, at all, here. You can claim viewership until our Lord comes again, but people are wary of this site. Most people don't want to have anything whatsoever to do with this site. You are here to warn people about the supposedly BAD churches of Christ. I am here to warn people of you.