"Historical" a cappella Churches of Christ is a LIE.
|December 12 2011, 1:33 PM |
Bobby Ross Jr comments on Carl H. Royster.
21CC is a commercial publishing company: I was assured 30 years ago that the were NOT an evangelistic society. I posted some stuff on Bobby Ross Jr blog and he promptly removed it. Specificially 21CC also has to endorse Rick Atchley whom Carl. H. Royester "consulted." Here is what Bobby Ross Christian Chronicle does not want as an attack on the "person." He may not know that he promotes "persons."
Rick Atchley: The era of the progressive Church of Christ is ovee
Back in the 80s you could go to any major city, especially in the South,
and you could find
a progressive Church of Christ
and if they would
preach grace, and if they would
put words on a screen,
and if they would let divorced people place membership,
they would grow.
The generation of Boomers has enough denominational loyalty that
to find the least legalistic
Well, we discipled the
children of those progressive churches
or a whole generation
to grow past us Boomers.
They never heard the sermons we heard.
They never heard the rationale for a cappella music.
We sent them to youth
rallies and Church of Christ events
with some of the finest Christianbands in the world.
We DISCIPLED our children to LEAVE our Movement!
Theyre not leaving the kingdom of God, and Im not saying that
so please hear me say,
Im not placing the health of the Movement above the kingdom of God
I want my kids to love Jesus, but I do think that
Churches need to understand.
It was prophesied and fulfilled that the ENEMIES of God would MOCK Messiah meaning with the Levite Soothsayers right up to the foot of the old rugged cross. The Word of Christ is the ONLY purpose driving HIS ekklesia - synagogue: those who sing and preach themselves are MOCKING Jesus and blaspheming each time they speak FOR Christ.
Jesus said that the Kingdom of God does not come with Observation.
That means religious observations or rituals. How can you preach
the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM and just preach people to love
Ray and the NACC dupe say that you can achieve Spiritual Growth beyond the Word of Christ in the Prophets and in Jesus which HE says is SPIRIT and the only source of GROWTH
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.108.40.206 on Dec 12, 2011 2:44 PM|
Ray Downen defines the NEW and revised Driving Purpose
|December 12 2011, 2:41 PM |
Ray Downing posted "parts" or Dwayne E. Dunning's similar pretty brutal attack on those who were never part of his group and never used instruments in church history. Factoid 101a is that NONE of the Bible is metrical: you cannot sing it if your life depended on it. The ancient scholars marked the texts with accents to PREVENT any pretend-inspired person from veering either to the right or left of the text. Peter affirmed that continuing practice of the synagogue and demanded that no one has the right to private interpretation or "further expounding." Paul excluded corruption of the Word which meaning "selling learning at retail" and also "adultery."
The UNIQUE worship word defined by Christ for the Church of Christ in the wilderness was to REST from the always-pagan (Jewish) Sun worship on the Seventh Day. He commanded that the text be READ or recited and that the word be rehearsed and discussed for the SOLE PURPOSE of going home with some Read, Confessed and Affirmed Word of God. Anyone who invents their own songs and sermons cannot be worshiping IN THE SPITIT. The human sancttified spirit is thee ONLY place God even looks for out worship. Christ in Isaiah 11 said that God does not judge by what He SEES or HEARS.
Christians could not possible have a driving purpose to infiltrate and confiscate a Church of Christ (None can possibly be machine and machinists worshipers) by CLAIMING that they "stole away" and still belongs to them. This is the FOUNDATION upon which all of the instrument-slanted are built.
The handshake was in 1832. The "credo" was identical that of the Churches of Christ and no Disciple approved of instruments. The Disciples violated the handshake before the ink dried.
In The Christian Messenger for November, 1834, is quoted an article from the Millennial Harbinger (Campbell's paper) as follows:
"Or does he (Stone) think that one or two individuals, of and for themselves, should propose and effect a formal union among the hundred of congregations scattered over this continent, called Christians or Disciples, without calling upon the different congregations to express an opinion or a wish upon the subject?
We discover, or think we discover, a squinting at  some sort of precedency or priority in the claims of the writer of the above article," etc.
Shall we not call the PAPER POPES who continually distort the Bible and history in order to keep the business of ALL sides just "Yellow Journalism" and not because of their boldness.
You cannot possible USE instruments and instrumentalists "part of the time" without having believed and convinced those who are LEFT that God COMMANDED INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE AND WE MUST NOT BE DISOBEDIENT.
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Dec 12, 2011 2:43 PM|
Call It Like It Is....
|December 12 2011, 3:43 PM |
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
Ken, in all of your moanings and groanings, attacks and insults, none of what you say has anything to do with what Christ asked you to do.
Again, since you want your own brand of religion, then fine. Call it what you wish, but just don't dare to hang onto the hem of Jesus's garment claiming to be a follower and scholoar of Him. You do NOT speak that which is written.
You speak that which Ken writes, which is not of God.
|December 12 2011, 3:46 PM |
Ken, I am not sure how your finances are, but I will pay you not to post here.
Think about it....
More reporting of hisitorical facts.
|December 12 2011, 7:21 PM |
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son
and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
Morrill, in "History of the Christian Denomination," says: 
"The 'union' itself was consummated on New Year's day, 1832, in Hill Street Christian Church, at Lexington, Kentucky, where representatives of both parties pledged themselves 'to one another before God, to abandon all speculation, especially on the Trinity, and kindred subjects, and to be content with the plain declaration of Scripture on those subjects on which there had been so much worse than useless controversy.'
The plain meaning is that they found common ground to occupy, threw away their divisive teachings and opinions, and acted as one. The men who at Lexington pledged themselves there and then gave one another the hand of fellowship, speaking for themselves, and the churches they came from,but not for all the churches or the denominations in Kentucky or the United States.
These things are doing mischief to the cause of Christian union, and well calculated to excite jealousy, and to give offense. They can do no good--in fact they are not true. We have met together on the Bible, being drawn together there by the cords of truth--we agreed to walk together according to this rule,
and to be united by the spirit of truth.
Neither the Christians nor Reformers professed to give up any sentiments or opinions previous to our union, nor were any required to be given up in order to effect it. We all determined to learn of Jesus, and to speak and do whatsoever He says to us in His Word. We all profess to be  called Christians, being the followers and disciples of Jesus."
It is dangerous to approve of violence (stealing the church house of widows) or using what the Bible ALWAYS calls sorcery: "singing and playing instruments." The next big lie is to speak of "instrumental A cappella Churches of Christ
." That is THE meaning of heresy or sectarian and publishing houses should be ashamed of even discussing it.
Did you see the "blood on the moon?"
, a, um, adj., =
or belonging to magic, magic, magical
and in post-Aug. prose): artes, Verg. A. 4,
: magicis auxiliis uti, Tib. 1, 8, 24
: arma movere, Ov. M. 5, 197
: superstitiones, Tac. A.
: vanitates, Plin. 30, 1, 1, § 1
: herbae, id. 24, 17, 99, § 156
: aquae, Prop. 4, 1, 102
(5, 1, 106): di magici, that were invoked by incantations
(as Pluto, Hecate, Proserpine), Tib. 1, 2,
; Luc. 6, 577
i. e. hieroglyphics
, id. 3, 222
; but lingua, skilled in incantations
M. 7, 330
; Luc. 3, 224
: cantus, Juv. 6, 610
: magicae resonant ubi Memnone chordae,
, id. 15, 5
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 18.104.22.168 on Dec 13, 2011 8:51 PM|
More Music Means Witchcraft:
|December 13 2011, 3:50 PM |
Re: Historically a cappella churches with instrumental services returned
|December 14 2011, 4:16 PM |
Just curious, do you find Jesus used music and money in his ministry? I see that you believe that this was a method Jesus used to heal and save the lost. I do not see that as an example of how Jesus operated and I am sure that your minister does not believe in the way Jesus did his ministry because that that would not fill his collection plate. Honestly Jesus moved away from the King David example, that you are such a proponent of, and Jesus gave us a new example of a very simple form of worship, no instruments and no collection of cash. I would encourage you to follow the example Jesus put before us, you will undersand the spiritual side of life, rather than follow the top 40 or secular side of life.
If you see where the Son of God played an instrument to God for worship, Please give us all the book, chapter,verse and translation, that would truly unite us. I know that you will probably give the that lazy preacher,s answer that the Bible is silent......
Or maybe you will be like the Catholic, and not have a clue.
AM is wrong
|December 15 2011, 12:01 PM |
Joanna the wife of Cuza, the manager of Herod's household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.
8:1-2 shows that them is a reference to Jesus and the Twelve.
Re: AM is wrong
|December 16 2011, 5:13 PM |
Do you see the difference between the "providing for" and the "solicitation of"? Obviously not! Jesus was provide for and Judas was acting in the solicitation of. Do you honestly see Jesus as a Modern Preacher(beggar) that looks to gain anyway he can? Or do you see Jesus as a son that was provided for by a father through his children? Explain your position, you could be wrong!
The REST of the story.
|December 16 2011, 8:35 PM |
Luke 8:1 And it came to pass afterward,
that he went throughout every city and village,
preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God:
and the twelve were with him,
A preacher must have a GO burden to be Christ Like.
The Gospel was not "just Jesus" but the good news of the KINGDOM OF GOD.
Jesus is the king and He will not tolerate queens on the throne.
Note Paul said that one is worthy of their food IF they are on the road again.
Luke 8:2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,
Luke 8:3 And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herods steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.
They took of their present funds
They didn't lay by each first day of the week: they laid by HIM or them so that they would have something "by him" to give to those in need.
The Catholic or the Lazy Preacher, Which One are You?
|December 15 2011, 3:46 PM |
Or, AM, I could give the most intellectual response that you assert....that you are big enough to conjure up that instrumental music is a sin, where the Bible doesn't. Can you give book and chapter where instrumental music is sinful? I see the sins of the flesh listed in Galatians 5
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Do you see instrumental music listed there? So now you want to rewrite the Word and add instrumental music to the list?
Now AM, I am sure that you are shaking your head as you read this....just as I did when I read your last response.
Oh, and you stated "Honestly Jesus moved away from the King David example..."
Please help me understand what you mean there? Where do you find that? If anything I see where Jesus pushed the example of King David and showed where all men need God.. David sinned, but still God loved him because David truly loved God, and that is evident with him using even musical instruments to accompany his singing and using ALL of his talents to Glorify God.
20 All this took about 450 years. After this, God gave them judges until the time of Samuel the prophet. 21 Then the people asked for a king, and he gave them Saul son of Kish, of the tribe of Benjamin, who ruled forty years. 22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.
AM, how many other men do you hear God commending like that?
Re: The Catholic or the Lazy Preacher, Which One are You?
|December 16 2011, 5:49 PM |
Prayer has One purpose, which I believe we all agree on. Music has many purposes and all entice the emotions, that is why the Las Vegas has the music stars highlighted on the Strip, music is an enterlude to a funeral, music for a wedding--music has not the sole purpose to worship God. Music is divisive. Music has a secular purpose not a spiritual purpose. Jesus did not use it. There was not music when he died on the cross. Jesus did not call people together to sing and make music(altough Jesus did sing with his apostle on one occassion). Yet you are bent on telling others Jesus did use music? And his Church is an example of how Jesus worshipped God with Music? Book, chapter, verse please!
If we are going to have Music don't you Think Beyonce' and her gospel music should be heard in our churchs, with her husband JayZ rapping to the beat, think of the people we would attrach! Or Lady Gaga singing amazing Grace with her synthesized chords. And don't think for a minute they would not put them on albums and sell them for a profit and profess a Christian image. Similar to what some church praise teams do, and collecting their thirty pieces.
Yes, I believe music and instruments are secular and with out God.
Dave, Why do feel instrments are so important to God? Why are you a secularist? Live the example of Jesus, it will make sense in time.
|December 16 2011, 8:19 PM |
I would kick out all of those limp-wristed, whiney-piney fellas and hire Willie Nelson.
What is a Legalist?
|December 15 2011, 4:50 PM |
....typical legalist....bash the denominationalists and Catholics....instead of seeking and saving the lost. A true legalist is where you seem them trying to save the already saved.
all musical performs are LEGALISTS (works of their hands) and WITCHES
|December 15 2011, 10:03 PM |
|December 18 2011, 12:24 AM |
Do you hold a political position? You sound like a good politician. You said "Jesus did not call people together to sing and make music(altough Jesus did sing with his apostle on one occassion)."
If Jesus is our Example and He EVER did something, yes even one time, then it is GOOD! You just contradicted yourself. You said that Jesus did not call people to sing, ALTHOUGH Jesus sang on one occasion. If Jesus sang, at any time, then YES, He did call men to sing together.
Now Ken will tell you that singing isn't singing, but that is exactly what the passage, using the Greek translation, expresses. It says singing....>It means singing.
Don't try changing the Word of God.
Jesus our example
|December 18 2011, 3:30 PM |
Jesus fed Judas the SOP which has the same root as PSALLO and the DEVIL went into Judas and he went out, hanged himself, twisted in the wind, rotted and his guts fell out. Go thou and do likewise.
Jesus marked the MEN of that generation as CHILDREN. This fulfills Christ's prophecy that the effeminate and women would rule over them. They piped trying to force others to take the mark by singing and dancing. Jesus consigned them to the market place. Go thou and do likewise.
Jesus cast out the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG: more or less violently. The prophetic fulfilment was because the same official (minister) regulated the dung heap and the flute-girls a synonym for prostitute. Go thou and do likewise.
No one ever sang in a weepy-creepy, limp-wristed form. God PREVENTED that by speaking to Jesus WITHOUT METER (as the word always meant in the normal pagan worship.).
Paul said that TRUE elders will teach that which HAS BEEN TAUGHT. In the other non-instrumental sense in Romans 15 the command was to use ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH to speak that which is written. Martin Luther and all of the church fathers could read black text on brown paper.
No, it's a lie: Martin Luther never wrote songs to be sung in church.
Next, an elder would understand that HYMNING once a hear in a home setting could never be a legalistic PATTERNISM for making noise when Jesus comes to teach where COMPETENT ELDERS taught what Jesus taught and NEVER led a superstitious Praise Singer wave a limp wrist. Even in civil society they in effect "tarred and feathered" any of the poetic-musical (hypocrites) to live in decent society.
Re: Jesus Sang
|December 19 2011, 1:41 PM |
I do not hold a political position and I am not a paid employee of the Church of Christ(which is worse).
One Occassion of Jesus Singing and it was not at a religious ceremony. So what is good or was that a sarcastic comment? Also why don't you explain Antiphonal singing, maybee you can help people with your Knowledge of how and why they sang. Also can you even reference the singing Jesus did in the Bible?
Here is a situation for you: Jesus, a Jew, destroyed a Jewish Temple. Explain how "If Jesus is our Example and He EVER did something, yes even one time, then it is GOOD!"?
BTW, I am not implying that Jesus was not right and good. And I would love to see your response.
Matthew 26 B
|December 18 2011, 10:10 PM |
When the overwhelming method of COMMUNICATION between God and man and man to man is to READ or SPEAK, why do you think there are so many people willing to sell their souls to say that God wants us to SING just to sing.
We know that the command to teach that which has been taught has almost been silenced by men claiming the role of mediator in their own songs and sermons: at the same time, the legalistic laws makes certain that none of the audience and supporters are branded as trouble keepers if they say something not on the outlines from college or preacher's school? They WILL hurt you?
Hallel, in Jewish ritual, selection from the Psalms, chanted as part of the liturgy during certain festivals. The more frequently used selection includes Psalms 113-118 and is known as the Egyptian Hallel, presumably because Psalm 114 begins, "When Israel went out of Egypt Ö" It is sung in synagogues on the first two days of Passover, on Shabuoth, on Sukkot, on each morning of the eight days of Hanukkah, and at the close of the Seder.
The Hallel through the generations, on specific occasions: Pesachim 117a
Hallel requires a full stomach and a satisfied spirit: Taanis 25b-26a
The reading is beloved to the people, and so they listen closely: Megillah 21b
The Hallel as an Institution of the Prophets, to use to pray for salvation from danger: Pesachim 117a
Which occurrences mandate singing praise to Gd: Megillah 14a
Reciting Hallel for a miracle which occurred outside of Israel: Megillah 14a
Saying the Hallel daily is blasphemous: Shabbos 118b