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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

A Song By Any Other name....

December 19 2011, 12:10 PM 

Ken, if you say that Jesus did not sing, then you are calling the Word of God a lie. Sing is still sing, no matter how hard you try to pull it out of the Greek/Latin/Hebrew/Spainish/whatever.

Matthew 26:30
When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
"After a few hours of discussion, here perhaps abbreviated, a household would sing the remaining hymns of the Hallel (Ps 113--18), undoubtedly the hymn to which Matthew 26:30 refers (Daube 1963:45; Ellington 1979)."


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: A Song By Any Other name....

December 20 2011, 1:16 AM 

Dave,

What did Jesus hymn about? Was it a Twila Paris or a Michael Smith "Christian" rock musical piece? Remember the occasion. One of his preceding statements was: "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

 
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Tom Brite
(no login)
69.91.18.251

Re: A Song By Any Other name....

December 20 2011, 8:51 AM 

Donnie, I have been taking a break from CM, but had to respond to your question about which songs were sung. No, I'm sure they were not Twila Paris songs, I'm pretty convinced that they were Fanny J. Crosby songs and other of our great old hymns written in the 19th century. The point is not the words of the song or when they were written, but the content of the song. Many of my favorites are what would be termed "contemporary songs" written in the late 20th or even the 21st century. It is a radical idea, but many of our "golden oldies" were radical at the time that they were written.

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Trash In....Trash Out!

December 19 2011, 1:13 PM 

Your very own definition that you used translates DICO as "To describe, relate sing..."...again, Ken, you cannot nor will be allowed to change the dictionary.

So you see, it is not the Word of God that is at odds or is confusing....
You are the one with the perverted mind who continues to want to change the Word.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Trash In....Trash Out!

December 20 2011, 1:31 AM 

You are correct, Dave, that "it is not the Word of God that is at odds or is confusing." The trash comes in when you make assertions that "singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" does not prohibit the use of musical devices.

So, you are saying that when Jesus hymned, it was in such a congregational setting that he waited for the "Worship Leader" to wag his arms and the Praise Team prepared to simulate the sounds of musical instruments? Or, did they use musical devices when they hymned? Are you prepared to use the same fallacious argument in this regard as when you strongly assert that the truth in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 does not prohibit the participation of lifeless, inanimate musical objects and devices when the live saints gather to teach and admonish one another?

Now, that would be trash in, trash out.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.67.243

I NEVER define words

December 20 2011, 12:46 PM 

Your very own definition that you used translates DICO as "To describe, relate sing..."...again, Ken, you cannot nor will be allowed to change the dictionary.

Neither can Websters or McGuffy's Lexicon used by the Phduhs.

This is LATIN without which no person should attempt to be MEDIATOR in sermon.
There was no Greek New Testament before Desiderius Erasmus, 1466-1536.

We disciples do not translate: we look at the context. They HYMNED one of the Hallels and WENT OUT. They didn't HYMN until the next appointed Passover. They "sang like a school boy reading the Hallel."

Encarta Online

Hallel, in Jewish ritual, selection from the Psalms, chanted as part of the liturgy during certain festivals. The more frequently used selection includes Psalms 113-118 and is known as the Egyptian Hallel, presumably because Psalm 114 begins, "When Israel went out of Egypt Ö" It is sung in synagogues on the first two days of Passover, on Shabuoth, on Sukkot, on each morning of the eight days of Hanukkah, and at the close of the Seder.

Hallel

The Hallel through the generations, on specific occasions: Pesachim 117a
Hallel requires a full stomach and a satisfied spirit: Taanis 25b-26a
The READING is beloved to the people, and so they LISTEN closely: Megillah 21b
The Hallel as an Institution of the Prophets, to use to pray for salvation from danger: Pesachim 117a
[2x]
Which occurrences mandate singing praise to God: Megillah 14a
RECITING Hallel for a miracle which occurred outside of Israel: Megillah 14a
SAYING the Hallel daily is blasphemous: Shabbos 118b


HERE IS THE "HALAL" OR PRAISE singing: a women's worship of the Devil

[linked image]



    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Feb 19, 2012 2:42 AM


 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Where Ya Been Donnie Boy?

December 20 2011, 12:50 PM 

Just like you Donnie, we are speaking of Ken and others (including you) believeing that Jesus didn't SING at all, and you bring up the yellow bus.

KEEP ON SUBJECT!

By the way, where does Christ or any of the authors list instrumental music as sinful?
Galatians 5
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Look hard, Donnie, but it aint there.

The sin comes in where you try to add a sin to the Word that isn't there.



 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.67.243

Can't read

December 20 2011, 12:59 PM 

Like I told you over and over WITCHCRAFT was never a supernatural gift. You work witchcraft in all pagan religious by the use of music or drugs such as wine. Music ENHANCES the wine and makes it easier for you to be fleeced out of your pants. More later.

The Levites were SOOTHSAYERS with instruments: they burned lambs or infants.
The "Fruits" in Revelation: singers, players, teknokrats were SORCERERS by the use of music to deceive the whole world.

Now, 'Dare to be a witch, son" but I tell you that for ten thousand witches there is only ONE warlock. Go ahead, go nude and make yourself VILE with the camp follower girls.


 
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AM
(no login)
72.54.195.146

Re: Where Ya Been Donnie Boy?

December 20 2011, 3:04 PM 

It does not mention abortion either. It does not mention Instrumental music. It does not mention paying a preacher like Judas was paid. So do you just lump all these in the good column?
"The sin comes in where you try to add a sin to the Word that isn't there", really are you that shallow? Do you refuse to see the spiritual aspects to anything?



 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

A Sin is a Sin is a SIn is a SIn......

December 20 2011, 2:00 PM 

Ken, therein lies the problem....you can tell me over and over again, but wrong yesterday is still wrong today.

More later....

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.67.243

It's in the book

December 20 2011, 5:59 PM 

Dave you are our approved example: why else listen to the tick-tocks?

Christ was sent to seek LOST SPIRITS: those who have been taken captive will GLADLY hear the Word of God. Jesus didn't send REAL soul seekers out to BATCH AND HATCH cuckoo eggs.
Those who take souls captive use the witchcraft of music. Christ, in the prophets said

Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. Isa 6:8

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Isa 6:9

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes/b>
....lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
....and understand with their heart,
....and convert, and be healed. Isa 6:10

Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant,
.... and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, Isa 6:11

And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land. Isa 6:12
Isa 6:13 But yet in it shall be a tenth and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.


Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites by quoting this. In Ezekiel 33 Christ called them speakers, singers and instrument players. Music MEANS to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter.

Mt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mt 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Mt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables:
....because they seeing see not;
....and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Mt 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias,
....which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand;
....and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Mt 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Mt 13:17 For verily I say unto you,
....That many prophets and righteous men
....have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them;
....and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


Don't boast about something over which you have no control.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.67.243

Matthew 26C-D

December 20 2011, 5:36 PM 

[linked image]
[linked image]

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

"Houston, We Have a Problem...."

December 20 2011, 6:18 PM 

AM said "It does not mention abortion either."
And you call me shallow?
Luke 18
18 A certain ruler asked him, Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?
19 Why do you call me good? Jesus answered. No one is goodexcept God alone. 20 You know the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.

Am, in verse 20 Jesus told the wealthy ruler that it was sinful to murder, yet you say that the sin isn't listed in the Scriptures. So maybe you are saying that abortion isn't murder. You are a card indeed.
AM, perhaps you could make the same ludicrous claim, as someone else used to do, that the Scriptures do not say that snorting cocaine is a sin either.

You also make a claim for unpaid preachers....
1 Corinthians 16
1 Now about the collection for the Lords people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 3 Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem.

In verse 3 Am, what do you think Paul meant by "send them with your gift?"


 
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AM
(no login)
173.185.23.202

Re: "Houston, We Have a Problem...."

December 21 2011, 12:38 AM 

The secular world has no law against abortion. The secular world did not find a crime in betraying Christ. The secular world promotes unholy entertainment. All are wrong. The Spirit of God gives the direction when there is no verse to reference. He can help you too.

 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.50.23

Re: "Houston, We Have a Problem...."

December 23 2011, 11:00 AM 

The Spirit of God gives the direction when there is no verse to reference. He can help you too.

*****************************************


AM, the home boys here at CM don't believe in the Holy Spirit thing. For them the Holy Spirit is the written Word only. Just saying, if you wanta be a home boy player...

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Not to Divert from the Topic....

December 23 2011, 12:58 PM 

Racnor,

OK ... let's not misrepresent what I believe the Scripture teaches about [your expression] "the Holy Spirit thing."

I'll make it brief ... and no one in this world will be able to refute God's truth:


  • The word "spirit" is a noun, but it is NOT a proper noun as in James, Nashville, etc.
  • The word "spirit" has a number of meanings: wind, breath, power, mind, force, etc.
  • The noun "spirit" can be described: an adjective will do that -- unholy, holy, evil.
  • The expression "holy spirit" is used in Scripture a number of times, but it is NOT a proper name
  • The "holy spirit" describes the kind of spirit that God or Christ has -- that spirit is HOLY!!!!!!!
  • That's why you will often see the "spirit" or "holy spirit" is appended (with the preposition "OF") to these proper names -- OF the Lord ... OF the Father ... OF Christ ... OF Jesus Christ ... OF God ... OF our God!!!!!
  • The proper name that can be referred to as "the Spirit" or "the Holy Spirit" is the Father Himself -- as He is a spirit (John 4:24) and He is without a question HOLY.
  • The proper name that also can be referred to as "the Spirit" or "the Holy Spirit" is Christ Himself -- as He is the Spirit of truth, the Comforter (cf. the book of John).

 
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ptochoslazaros
(Login ptochoslazaros)
113.172.188.192

You have the same beliefs with me

December 2 2013, 9:27 AM 

Hello Donnie Cruz
Ive tried to find true Christians who were released totally from Trinity and Immortal soul but its very hard to find those in my country Vietnam. I'm very happy to find that you have many similarities with my beliefs. Now I post some important things that I believe with expectation of meeting who have the same beliefs with me:
- The Holy Spirit is Jehovah, not an active force/power although The Spirit can manifest active forces/powers.
- The Father is just a Holy Spirit, The Son now is also a Spirit. A man (or a soul) living in flesh is a spirit in a body and his spirit cant be seperated from the body; however, when he comes to the Kingdom of God, he will be transformed to be a spirit like Jesus and God. I dont think sinners will be got eternal penalties in Hell, the pelnalties will be restricted and the sinners will be destroyed after suffer the torments.
- The regeneration/rebirth of a faithful man just really happens right after the recoming of the Christ.
- Jesus is not God, but the only Son of the only God.
- Jesus was called The only Son while The Father also has other sons. It is because only Jesus was begotten directly from The Holy Spirit (The Father) very long time before the creation of the universe. The other sons were created from material (dust of ground), not begotten directly from the Holy Spirit. Obviously, the life of the Son born from The Holy Spirit is more precious than all the lives of who were created from material. This is why the death of Jesus can pay for all sins of all people.
- When Jesus became a human, he didnt inherit the gene of Mary from Adam, he was completely a new man (second Adam).
- Angels of Jehovah is not Jesus or Jehovah or Jehovahs manifestion, they are merely good angels who usually happened beside the invisible Jehovah (Genesis 16:7-13; 18-19; 21:17-19; 32:24-31; Exodus 3:2-14; Judges 6:11-24; 13:6-23; IISamuel 24:15-25). Many people confused the voice of the invisible God (around the Angels) with the voice of the Angels, so they thought that Jehovah spoke and acted in the form of the Angels !
- In The Futures Kingdom of God, the position of an angel is much lower than a man. There are nowhere in the bible called angels Sons of God, Hebrews 1-2 show the roles of angels, especially Hebrews 1:5.
- The Shabbat today shouldnt be kept in the old way, we are released from the old laws to serve God in new ways with autonomy. Shabbat today in Jesus is not limited in the seventh day of a week, but it is an endless time after we believe in the Christ.
- Homosex is not accepted in OT and NT.
If you have sympathies with me, please contact with me via my email:
ptochoslazaros@gmail.com

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.209.104

Re: "Houston, We Have a Problem...."

December 21 2011, 1:59 AM 

Earlier, Dave said:

"By the way, where does Christ or any of the authors list instrumental music as sinful?
Galatians 5
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Look hard, Donnie, but it aint there."


So Dave is telling us that because the list of certain sins in Galatians 5 fails to include IM, then IM is not sinful. Dave also mentioned cocaine. By Dave's reasoning, since Galatians 5 also fails to include snorting cocaine, then cocaine is not sinful, right?

Discerning readers will know that the New Testament does not list every conceivable sin by name. The New Testament expects us to take its general teachings and apply them to our lives and worship. Therefore, we know that illicit use of cocaine is sinful, because it harms the body. The New Testament tells us that our bodies are the temple of God; if we defile that temple by deliberately hariming our bodies, then we sin (1 Cor. 3 and 6).

So what about IM? Is it not sinful because it's not included in Galatian 5's list? The New Testament also tells us that we are not to go above what is written therein (1 Cor. 4:6), meaning that we may not add to or take from what God has already commanded in the New Testament (Rev. 22) as far as doctrinal matters are concerned. Since God addressed worship music in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16, it is a doctrinal matter. God told us to sing and make melody in our hearts. That is, God told us to incorporate vocal music into our worship. Now if we add another kind of music--that made with mechanical instruments instead of the human voice alone--then we sin. Must God tell us not to use IM when He has already told us to use vocal music? NO. His very directive to use vocal music precludes every other form of music. In addition to the drug that he prescribes for a patient, must a doctor also specify on the prescription all other drugs that the pharmacist may NOT dispense? That would be ludicrous. It's just as ludicrous for people to say that, with each command, God MUST include everything that is forbidden, and if He doesn't, we may supplement His commands as we wish, because God didn't say not to.

Remember that "God didn't say not to" is a figment of man's imagination; it cannot be found anywhere in the New Testament.

 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.50.23

Re: "Houston, We Have a Problem...."

December 21 2011, 10:27 PM 

The phrase "God didn't say not to" was coined by a Doctor who used to be a regular poster here. I just can't remember his name. happy.gif Oh well, "B", do you really think snorting cocaine in a good example of "God didn't say not to"? I hope we all know that abusing cocaine is wrong! Perhaps, prescription drug abuse would be a more challenging debate for some people in the Church. I think "B" was the one who deemed IM as sinful.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.209.242

Re: "Houston, We Have a Problem...."

December 22 2011, 12:06 PM 

As far as obeying God's commands and directives, people have had a choice since the days of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden: obey God and do well; or disobey God and sin by looking for imaginary loopholes to justify their personal desires. As far as church music is concerned, people have the choice either to obey God's directive, which only specifies vocal music; or disobey God and sin by looking for imaginary loopholes to justify their personal desire to add IM. One favorite, imaginary loophole is the fallacious rationale of "God didn't say not to use IM," a rational that is not found in the New Testament. Another way to say it is, "God's silence is permissive," but that also is not found in the New Testament. A third way to say it is, "What God doesn't condemn by name is fair game," but that, too, is not found in the New Testament. None of man's justifications for having IM are found in the New Testament. Man can whitewash it and phrase it any way he likes, but it all comes down to the same thing: man chooses to ADD IM and thus circumvent God's command that only specifies vocal music. By doing so, man chooses to sin.

It's your choice.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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