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Jimmy Joe
(no login)

Re;Worship Music

December 22 2011, 1:30 AM 

B. I believe you are mistaken in using Eph.5:19 and Col.3:16 to try to prove that vocal singing is the only authorized way to worship. In my opinion, which is just as good as yours, the verses are telling one how to live their life on a daily basis. Eph.5:18 tells us not to get drunk on wine. Using your logic does that mean daily in our lives or just during worship? Of course we all could follow Mr. Sublett and just don't sing, don't preach and don't donate. That would pretty much simplify worship as we know it.

On a side note: Where have you been Donnie? Been missing you at the late service brother.

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(no login)

Re: "Houston, We Have a Problem...."

December 21 2011, 4:03 PM 

I would hope you would see that a gift is different from a salary. I guess you do not.
Secondly, Abortion is wrong, the spiritual destruction that occurs is indescribable, yet there are people that refuse to see this as anything more that a proceedure like pulling a tooth. Just like what has occured in our church services. We no longer look to please God, but there is this effort to entice people to Join a modern, up to date, entertaining service. We no longer view Church as a way to strengthen people spiritually, but a way to include them in our collection and popularity efforts. We do not teach people to follow that spirit that guides them away from destruction. Would you stand in front of an abortion clinic with the same musical instruments that you play in church, with the idea that would stop what is about to occur? That is how shallow our churches have become and Dave is right there playing his music, helping no one.

Your comment "Houston we have a problem" is only a problem for people who do not understand the Spirit of God and how that spirit is involved in their lives. How is this a problem to you?

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(no login)

Knowing the Word is Knowing Jesus

December 20 2011, 6:40 PM 

Ken, I always believed that you wanted everyone to know that you are the approved example, that you could only interpret the Word.
The problem is that you believe that your heart is the only one ready for the Word to be revealed to. You claim that those who disagree with you have had their ears shut. You use your Greek, and your Enoch, and Greek mythology to figure it all out. Christ tells you in Matthew 18:3
And he said: Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Ken, He is telling everyone that for several reasons. It isn't in the learning, which we need (the Bereans studied and were thought to be noble for such-Acts 17:11), but in our Trusting in God and His Son. Becoming like children, Ken, means losing your arrogance.
So Ken, keep your nose up in the air feeling dignified about what you know, and see where it gets you in the end. If you can't convey the message of Love that Christ is all need to take up woodworking, carving, or poetry instead.

2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
John 5
39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

No LAW of giving.

December 21 2011, 10:36 AM 

NOW concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 1 Corinthians 16:1

log-eia , h, A. collection of taxes or voluntary contributions, PHib.1.51.2 (iii B. C), PTeb.58.55 (ii B. C.), POxy.239.8 (i A. D.); collection for charity, 1 Ep.Cor.16.1,

Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. 1 Corinthians 16:2

[linked image]

Didache 1:5 Give to every one that asketh of thee, and ask not again;

for the Father wishes that from his own gifts there should be given to all.
Blessed is he who giveth according to the commandment, for he is free from guilt;
but woe unto him that receiveth.

For if a man receive being in need, he shall be free from guilt;

but he who receiveth when not in need, shall pay a penalty as to why he received and for what purpose; and when he is in tribulation he shall be examined concerning the things that he has done, and shall not depart thence until he has paid the last farthing.

For of a truth it has been said on these matters, let thy almsgiving abide in thy hands until thou knowest to whom thou hast given. Didache 1:6

In The Necessity of Reforming the Church (1543) Calvin wrote:

But is it not altogether at variance with reason that the ploughing oxen should starve, and the lazy asses be fed? They will say, however, that they serve at the altar. I answer, that the priests under the law deserved maintenance, by ministering at an altar;

but that, as Paul declares, the case under the New Testament is different.

And what are those altar services, for which they allege that maintenance is due to them? Forsooth, that they may perform their masses and chant in churches, for example,

partly labor to no purpose,
and partly perpetrate sacrilege, thereby provoking the anger of God. See for what it is that they are alimented at the public expense!

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Feb 19, 2012 2:53 AM

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: No LAW of giving.

December 21 2011, 11:58 AM 

If you cannot grasp that lay by HIM means lay by HIM then you are not SUPPOSED to understand: you are not a lost spirit OF FAITH or OF TRUTH.

Modern Speech: On the first day of every week let each of you put on one side and store up at his home whatever gain has been granted him; so that whenever I come, there may be no collections going on. (The Modern Speech New Testament, Richard Francis Weymouth).

Authentic Version: The day after the Sabbath let each of you put by savings as he has prospered, so that collections do not have to be made when I come. (The Authentic Version, Hugh J. Schonfield).

NEV: Every Sunday each of you is to put aside and keep by him a sum in proportion to his gains, so that there may be no collecting when I come. (New English Bible New Testament).

Plain English: On the first day of the week let each of you put aside and save something from his earnings; so that the money has not all to be collected when I come. (The New Testament in Plain English, Charles Kingsley Williams).

Neander: But Paul, if we examine his language closely, says no more than this: that every one should lay by in his own house on the first day of the week, whatever he was able to save.

This certainly might mean, that every one should bring with him the sum he had saved to the meeting of the church, that thus the individual contributions might be collected together, and be ready for Paul as soon as he came.

But this would be making a gratuitous supposition, not at all required by the connexion of the passage.

We may fairly understand the whole passage to mean, that every one on the first day of the week should lay aside what he could spare, so that when Paul came, every one might be prepared with the total of the sum laid by, and then by pulling the sums together, the collection of the whole church would be at once made." Dr. Augustus Neander, in his "History of the Training and Planting of the Christian Church,"

Give to the godly man, but do not help the sinner. Ecclu 12:4.

Do good to the humble, but do not give to the ungodly; hold back his bread, and do not give it to him, lest by means of it he subdue you; for you will receive twice as much evil for all the good which you do to him.

Ecclu 12: 5.
For the Most High also hates sinners and
will inflict punishment on the ungodly. Ecclu 12: 6.
Give to the good man, but do not help the sinner. Ecclu 12: 7.

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(no login)

Is Didache before Micah or after Exodus?

December 21 2011, 11:47 AM 

Didache 1:5

Hey Ken? Is Didache in the Old Testament or New Testament?

Didn't think so.....

Well, if you're gonna be wrong, and not use Scriptures, at least be consistently wrong.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Tertullian defines the role of the collection plate: not for performers.

December 22 2011, 10:54 PM 

Tertullian warned against modern polytheists and using the performing arts and crafts to replace the role of the Church to teach the Word of Christ. Giving in the Bible and history never makes it into a compulsion especially these days when there are so many getting your money and then turning into "a theater for musical performance." (confessed by all of those stolen building stealers)

We assemble to read our sacred writings, if any peculiarity of the times makes either forewarning or reminiscence needful. However it be in that respect, with the sacred words we nourish our faith, we animate our hope, we make our confidence more stedfast; and no less by inculcations of God's precepts we confirm good habits. In the same place also exhortations are made, rebukes and sacred censures are administered. For with a great gravity is the work of judging carried on among us, as befits those who feel assured that they are in the sight of God; and you have the most notable example of judgment to come when any one has sinned so grievously as to require his severance from us in prayer, in the congregation and in all sacred intercourse.

The tried men of our elders preside over us, obtaining that honour not by purchase, but by established character. There is no buying and selling of any sort in the things of God. Though we have our treasure-chest, it is not made up of purchase-money, as of a religion that has its price. On the monthly day,

[On ordinary Sundays, "they laid by in store," apparently: one a month they offered.]

if he likes, each puts in a small donation; but only if it be his pleasure, and only if he be able: for there is no compulsion; all is voluntary. These gifts are, as it were, piety's deposit fund. For they are not taken thence and spent on feasts, and drinking-bouts, and eating-houses,
.....but to support and bury poor people, supply the wants of boys and girls destitute of means and parents,
.....and of old persons confined now to the house;
.....such, too, as have suffered shipwreck; and if there happen to be any in the mines, or banished to the islands, or shut up in the prisons, for nothing but their fidelity to the cause of God's Church, they become the nurslings of their confession

There is no hint that money should be fleeced from individuals and then spent on ministering to criminals. Just because something is good does not mean that it can DIVERT the church from its sole duty of educating people.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Historically a cappella churches with instrumental services returned

December 23 2011, 1:14 PM 

B. I believe you are mistaken in using Eph.5:19 and Col.3:16 to try to prove that vocal singing is the only authorized way to worship. In my opinion, which is just as good as yours, the verses are telling one how to live their life on a daily basis. Eph.5:18 tells us not to get drunk on wine. Using your logic does that mean daily in our lives or just during worship? Of course we all could follow Mr. Sublett and just don't sing, don't preach and don't donate. That would pretty much simplify worship as we know it.

Jesus "synagogued" with the disciples two first days of the week in a row. Of course, He never had a worship team present on either day. The synagogue met each rest day at least and the Ekklesia met roughly once a week.

"Don't get drunk on wine BEFORE you speak" would point anyone claiming to be a teacher to what all of the people especially in Ephesus would understand: "Don't get FLUTED DOWN with wine" which would outlaw any of the pagan symposia where getting drunk on wine and music was the meaning of the CROOKED RACE. The symposium was a pretty good model for pseudo-churches who--as Scripture warns--getting drunk without wine: getting drunk on passion, pride and ignorance. You cannot run a NEW WINESKIN holy tavern without music: that's what Paul was saying but NOT to those not OF TRUTH or OF FAITH.

kat-auleô , A. charm by flute-playing, tinos Pl.Lg.790e, cf. R.411a; tina Alciphr.2.1: metaph., se . . -êsô phobôi I will flute to you on a ghastly flute, E.HF871 (troch.):--Pass., of persons, methuôn kai katauloumenos drinking wine to the strains of the flute, Pl.R.561c; k. pros chelônidos psophon to be played to on the flute with lyre accompaniment,

2. c. gen. loci, make a place sound with flute-playing, Thphr.Fr.87:-- Pass., resound with flute-playing, nêsos katêuleito Plu.Ant.56

hupauleô , play on the flute in accompaniment, melos tisi Alcm. 78 ; penthimon ti D.C.74.5 ; hu. lusiôidos 1 one who played women's characters in male attire, Plut. Posidon.4J. ; Pandionidi Luc. Harm.1 : abs., Id.Salt.83.

to the Greeks, Ante-Nicene, Vol. II, p.

[linked image]

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Dec 23, 2011 1:18 PM

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Jay Guin (by D.C.)
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Historically a cappella churches with instrumental services returned

January 7 2012, 3:54 PM 

An article titled "Jay Guin, Change Agent" informs us that:
Jay Guin is an elder at University Church of Christ in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. He serves as an elder and is busy teaching and shepherding the flock. Jay is also an attorney so the bills get paid at home. He has been a speaker at some of the most popular and well-known Church of Christ lectureships and is an author. His book The Holy Spirit and Revolutionary Grace: God's antidotes for division within the Churches of Christ and at least four others are favorites of many readers.

Ray, one of our posters, and Jay Guin have something in common; they both opine that incorporating instrumental music in "non-instrumental" churches of Christ PROMOTE UNITY.

Here's Jay Guin's response to the article: "'Historically' a cappella churches with instrumental services returned to national directory":

My compliments to Carl Royster, Mac Lynn, and 21st Century Christian for a truly courageous and correct decision. Amen!

Those who disagree with the decision all make the same error all implicitly assume that error of any kind damns. Notice how the objectors all argue based on their position on instrumental music as though proving the instrumentalists in error somehow proves they must not be fellowshiped! Thats a huge logical leap which no one even tries to prove from scripture.

Heres the problem: There are countless other areas where we disagree among one another in the Churches of Christ and yet continue to extend fellowship. Why is it the instrumental music is a fellowship issue and, say, steeples on the building are not? Where I grew up, steeples were quite controversial.

Obviously, some issues truly are fellowship issues such as faith in Jesus as Son of God. But others are not (Heard anyone demand a church split over whether the Spirit proceeds from the Father or the Father and the Son lately?)

So what is the standard? How do we tell based solely on the Bible whether a disagreement is a salvation or fellowship issue? And until someone can answer that question, the debate is pointless.

And those who wish to divide over the instrument have never articulated a sensible, Bible-based standard for distinguishing instrumental music from all the other issues over which we dont divide. That makes the choice utterly arbitrary indeed, self-made religion.

# 8 December 2011 at 7:31 pm

BTW, some of my posts in response to the article have been published.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Historically a cappella churches with instrumental services returned

January 13 2012, 5:34 PM 

If Jay Guin truly believes that the church of Christ of which he claims to be a member is the New Testament church that Christ established at Pentecost, then, he would be presenting arguments in favor of the NT church.

But I'm afraid he does not have that "New Testament church" mindset. Instead, sadly, he has the "denominational church of Christ" mindset--very strongly contrary to the Restoration Movement principle that the New Testament church that Christ built is not a denomination and that members of the NT church of Christ Jesus are simply "Christians" and leaving [not embracing] denominationalism. But is it really that surprising to hear arguments against the church coming out of the mouths of change agents like Jay Guin? I think NOT. In fact, the change agents are attempting to rewrite the history of the Restoration Movement.

Having said all that, it is apparent that Jay Guin is anti-church of Christ. We'll just have to keep waiting [and it may be forevermore] for Jay Guin to come back to his doctrinal-spiritual senses as he has FAILED to realize that mechanically operating musical objects and other musical accessories while Christians are hymning God's truth as they teach and admonish one another IS A CHURCH OF CHRIST issue.

Jay's deception, whether he realizes it or not, is in his attempt to convince the religious world that instrumental music in the assembly is a global, universal religious issue ... when it is NOT. The denominational world does not have an issue with instrumental music. Even major religious bodies (many of whose original founders were strongly opposed to IM) use musical instruments in their assemblies, and, therefore, instrumental music is not an issue with them.

Again, instrumental music is almost uniquely an issue with the NT church of Christ Jesus. ["Almost" ... because the Primitive Baptist Church considers IM an issue. And there may be a few others.]

Instead of Jay Guin aligning himself with the church of Christ he claims to be a member of, he is essentially expressing arguments for IM that are ANTI-CHURCH. Who can be anymore aware that churches of Christ, including those in the 1st century era (the Corinthian, Galatian, Colossian, Ephesian and other congregations then) did not and do not indulge in mechanical music in their gatherings THAN JAY GUIN?

Jay Guin, you are a LEADER OF DISCORD. While your unscriptural arguments favor those in the denomination world -- the Catholic, Protestant and Community Churches -- your unscriptural arguments are CONTRARY TO, CONTROVERSIAL, UNNECESSARY and DIVISIVE in the church of Christ of which you claim to be a member and, worse, you are a misleader.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Historically a cappella churches with instrumental services returned

January 16 2012, 3:13 PM 

The SILENCE from the ardent followers, supporters and disciples of the liberal, progressive CHANGE AGENTS (Jay Guin, Rick Atchley, Max Lucado, Al Maxey, et al) is deafening.


Let's discuss "silence." There are two (2) differing and opposing interpretations of one of the Restoration Movement principles: "Where the Scriptures speak, we speak; where the Scriptures are silent, we are silent."

(1) LAW OF SILENCE -- what it meant to our Restoration Movement forefathers and heritage, e.g. instrumental music and/or dancing: There is no command or directive from God whatsoever to worship or offer service to Him with musical instruments. None from the Old Testament. None from the New Testament. SIMPLE!!! STRAIGHTFORWARD!!! NO CONFUSION!!!

------------------------ VERSUS -------------------------

(2) LAW OF SILENCE -- what it means to the change agents who seek to rewrite (write their own version of) the Restoration Movement history; who seek to transform the New Testament church of Christ into a denomination; who have altered certain doctrines and teachings of Christ and the apostles in order to be denomination-friendly and denomination-conforming. They frequently quote Psalm 150 (a poetry) as their proof of God's command and other OT passages to prove that "God's followers" practiced it. Wow!!! The pagans did a lot of that musical idolatry and dancing, too. Truth is that there is not a single command or directive from God (verbal or written) for His followers to offer such type of worship or service to Him--NONE to be found in the entire Bible. You know, it is very easy to concoct a man-made specification, such as: "What is NOT PROHIBITIVE is AUTHORITATIVE." Or, claim to know God's thought and assert man's conclusion that: "God did not say 'not to'; therefore God authorized it." Better yet: "God had thought about it, got too busy, and forgot to put it in writing."

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Historically: Instrumental Music Is No Minor Matter

January 20 2012, 10:50 PM 

I posted the following at the Chronicle's blog on Dec. 7, 2011, and I just lost it [... i.e., the HTML code]. So, here it is luckily published:


Historically, among other points of doctrinal differences, the Disciples of Christ/Christian Church has separated itself from the church of Christ because of the issue concerning the mechanical operation of inanimate, lifeless musical devices in the assembly of saints.

The directory was reporting it correctly [statistically, of course] in the past. The "subgroups" were "within churches of Christ only." But instrumental music is such a major religious issue and as we know it was the primary reason for the separation of the two bodies in the religious census of 1906.

Since the 2012 directory of churches of Christ (also "historically" known as a directory of "a cappella" churches of Christ) has reversed its decision to now include "instrumental worship" churches, I would suggest a code or a combination of codes [might as well] for each of the following:

  • That the directory should now include Disciples of Christ/Christian Church "instrumental" congregations;
  • Former name of the church (e.g., Oak Hills Church [formerly "of Christ"]);
  • Former church of Christ congregation that now identifies itself or is affiliated with the Disciples/Christian Church;
  • Former church of Christ congregation transformed into a Community Church;
  • Former church of Christ congregation now associated with the Willow Creek Association of Community Churches;
  • Congregation that has deaconesses;
  • Congregation that has women teaching MEN and women;
  • Congregation that has a Praise Team ("progressive Church of Christ" CHOIR);
  • etc.

What's next?

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Forsake not the synagogue

January 20 2012, 11:20 PM 

Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Hebrews 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Hebrews 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Jesus has repudiated the Jewish system where all of the performing arts were at the CORNER STONE or the secret place where only on-duty sons of Aaron were permitted to attend or "perform"

Jesus has spoken OPENLY in the Synagogues and in the temple court "of the Jews."

The "assembly" which almost all churches have forsaken is called the synagogue which, including the ekklesia, excluded all of the market-place religious temples.

The REST and the church defined by the TRUE RESTORATION MOVEMENT was that:

Church was A School of Christ
Worship was READING and Musing the Word of God.

Those who construct "worship services" of performing preachers and performing musicians HAVE DEFACTO forsaken the pattern of the Synagogue. They CANNOT be A Church of Christ and I have noted that the INSTITUTION is removed by Christ at the same time the rhetoricians, performance singers and instrument players are removed along with the LAMPS. They will NEVER get their little lamps to shine again.


There is a Divine command that these "Locusts" give a reason for the hope they have.
The have not and WILL NOT answer any posting of Biblical text. That is why those called "Scholars" will never refute what they know cannot be refuted. They confess their own lack of spiritual knowledge.

As for as CM rebuking those who are INTENTIONAL false "angels"

Ephesians 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Ephesians 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

The UNFRUITFUL works of SKIA is repeating any thing in the Law of the Monarchy as a "patternism" for what they call "worship services." All of the musicators APPEAL to the darkness of Instrumental Exorcism where the Levites were "soothsayers with instrumental noise" since instruments have no "breath" as Donnie has noted.

[linked image]

Christ in Isaiah said that Israel's covenant was with DEATH: the only spiritual covenant was made to Abraham by God in Christ and it had no performance staff.

There is NO command to hold a private hearing for a public false teacher:

aiskhros ,
disgrace, put to shame, muthon e. treat a speech with contempt, tina put one to shame,

II. cross-examine, question, accuse one of doing, 2 test, bring to the proof,
4. refute, confute, b. put right, correct, prove by a reductio ad impossibile 5. get the better of betray a weakness,

ANY preacher who ignores the Direct Command to PREACH the word by READING the Word in context and pointing out any doctrinal content to COMFORT the "school" HAS forsaken the Assembly of Christ. That's why the "conservatives" break your knee caps and refuse to give an answer as to why THEY are fleeching the widows and preaching out of their own head:that is what Jesus called a Scribe or Pharisee, hypocrite.

We have noted that Rick Atchley confessed what we have been saying for two decades: they collected the youth at Winterfest and other gatherings and plied them with lots of instrumental "worship music." And we taught them to LEAVE OUR MOVEMENT. If the Gospel Advocate includes them as an "a cappella church of Christ" we know the meaning.

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Feb 19, 2012 2:50 AM

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Jack Gillils: Does Sat. Nite (w/ Communion) Change Anything?

January 21 2012, 3:53 PM 

Here's an interesting response to the unhistorical "church directory" addition of Disciples/Christian Church-leaning or Community Church-transformed churches debate.
Jack Gillils said:

Does having services on Sat. nite change anything? Why can't we do what the bible says and let it be. Sad part is that these Big guys think no one can read the bible and understand it, some other churches do. May God forgive us. The next 52yrs and the church will like the Dark ages. Romans 14:12. Quit trying to be like the world.

# 6 December 2011 at 12:52 pm

[cf. The Christian Chronicle blog]

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Johnny D. Hinton: On How the Bible Authorizes

January 21 2012, 4:10 PM 

Yes, the Christian Church left us. The very few churches of Christ that employ instrumental worship should leave the church peacefully, and not cause division in the congregation. For example, the Hills Church of Christ [or sometimes simply "The Hills Church"], formerly the Richland Hills Church of Christ, should find means to merge with the Disciples/Christian Church in that community.

Johnny D. Hinton said:

This reversal is a big mistake. They left us just like the Christian church over 100 years ago. The instrument is only an outward symptom of much deeper differences on how the Bible authorizes.

# 6 December 2011 at 5:39 pm

[cf. The Christian Chronicle blog]

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)


January 21 2012, 5:35 PM 

You remember the GRACE-CENTERED concept actually confesses that WE ARE SINNING but Grace will cover up the bad smell. Those who know that GRACE teaches us to resist such things as lying about God and To God are cursed with all of the RACA words for not letting the juvenile delinquents crap on our floor.

The NACC has always promoted the MANTRA that Churches of Christ sected out of them when they must know that the Christian Church was part of the Disciples of Christ sect until slowly secting out from 1927 to 1971. At the same time the Churches of Christ were never "unioned" with the Diaciples/Christians as they claim in 1832. In 1834 Campbell DENIED it. Yet, they still use the same old lie because it is a psychological weapon they can use to bestow a guilt complex and force churches of Christ to repent, confess and begin using what is always the MARK that God "has been there and gone."

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Donnie Cruz
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Andrew Norris: The Brotherhood Once Proud for Standing for the Truth

January 22 2012, 1:11 AM 

Most of the early responses to the church directory debate have been from those who love the truth. (Yes, we will be posting messages from those who love the trumpet and tambourines "enhancing worship.")

Andrew Norris said:

I am very disappointed in Mr. Roysters decision. I was very proud when he decided to stand for the truth in leaving the instrumental people out of the brotherhood. A brotherhood that was once proud for standing for the truth instead of packing pews.

For those that have instruments in the church, I have one question, where is your Biblical backing for having instruments?

Where do you have the authority to add what God has said? We are now no better than the denominational world, a world that we tried so desperately to separate from, so we can be just Christians only.

This is a sad day for a brotherhood I was once proud of, that once stood for truth and not tolerance with sacrificing Gods law.

# 7 December 2011 at 8:04 am

[cf. The Christian Chronicle blog.]

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Historically a cappella churches with instrumental services returned

January 23 2012, 9:36 PM 

OK. "Fair and balanced" reporting. Dave, Fred, Sonny, et al, have found a friend in Chris. [Know what? This sounds just like the Chris that has posted here quite a few times before. I'm just guessing, alright?] Now, we've heard these arguments before and often. But, let's review them again.
Chris said:

This is great news! A step toward unity.isn't that what the restoration movement is suppose to be all about?

I understand that some of you want to argue that accapella is a center piece of the Church of Christ. And, it has been a huge part of our heritage (in most regions). However, isn't autonomy SUPPOSED to be a bigger part? There is a Biblical model of church leadership that has LOCAL elders and leadership deciding what is best for the worship of God in their own community. Since the Bible never condemns the use of instrument, how can we say that they shouldn't be used by another congregation? Think about some of the things that we get really "wrong" as a movement if the only example to follow comes from the Bible:

-Ownership of church buildings
-Lord's Supper is terribly wrong in practice (passing trays, really????), place (should be in homes), and content (grape juice and no wine?).
-Women's roles (By Paul's account to Timothy they shouldn't be talking in Bible class. On the flip side, there should be women serving as deacons according to his letter to Romans and sharing prophecies and prayers in Corinth)
-4 part harmony
-Use of song books or projector
-Hired ministry staff
-Failure to sell all that we have an give it to one another
-We don't meet "every day"
-We don't speak in tongues

I could go on and on. And, I know that many of you will pardon our differences from the New Testament on most of these areas because we have well verses responses to them. But, the point is, we look NOTHING like the NT church, NOTHING. However, we continue to do many of these things without regard for those differences. Sometimes those differences from the NT are out of mere convenience. Other times, they are because we are trying to present the gospel to the world around us and recognize that the current world is much different than the one of 2000 years ago. Why make this the one issue that everyone has to get right be considered part of our movement? Should we start kicking churches out for other things that don't match our heritage?

Let's not be like the Pharisees.the only group that Jesus absolutely despised in the Bible.

# 7 December 2011 at 11:43 pm

[cf. The Christian Chronicle blog.]

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Most of these guys can't read

January 24 2012, 6:32 PM 

It is not possible to be a Disciple of Christ (prophets and apostles) and say that God did not radically condemn using instruments-machines for doing hard work-because they showed a blasphemous attitude toward the word of God the exclusive resource for A School of the Word. Furthermore, in the Bible and other literature instruments are called sorcery or witchcraft because they were ALWAYS used to unfairly manipulate the minds of the "audience" so that they COULD not give heed (the only worship concept) to God's word but THEIR Body and Voice and Machines.

By definition a Pharisee is a hypocrite who writes his/her own "scripture" in song and sermon and SELL it as the Word of God.

[linked image]
[linked image]

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Most of these guys can't read

January 31 2012, 5:22 AM 

True -- "most of these guys can't read." Maybe, these guys can learn from this evangelist.
Evangelist Mojima Etokudo said:

It is good we call the Bible thing in name and also do the Bible thing in a Bible way.

If we are worshiping God today through Jesus Christ, we should not allow our educational attainment to lead us astray.

If God says sing unto me with your lips, do just that taking note of Rev 22:18,19.

Using micro phone in the church does not mean cymbals etc.

So I thank those who consider the changes Necessary to make our worship true.

Remember John 12:48

# 9 December 2011 at 9:48 am

SOURCE: The Christian Chronicle blog

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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

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At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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