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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

No, This Is NOT Great News!

February 5 2012, 4:11 PM 

Here's my response to Chris:
Chris,

No, this is bad news. This is like history repeating itself -- it's the 1906 religious census over again, a split group within churches of Christ: (a) a cappella VERSUS (b) instrumental music worshippers. That certainly is not a Restoration Movement principle of unity.

What about this type of unity:

  1. Allow instrumental music lovers operate their mechanical devices in a cappella churches of Christ
    -------------------------------- AND --------------------------------

  2. Allow churches of Christ to remove those inanimate, lifeless musical devices from the Disciples of Christ/Christian Churches?

The elders are supposed to teach members that which they have been taught, and not be influenced by culture-driven schemes, approaches and methodologies to "grow the church." They (the elders) are responsible leaders of the congregation and should be held accountable when division occurs due to issues such as instrumental music in the assembly.

By the way, you forgot to add to your list: the kitchen sink, indoor/outdoor toilets, A/C, carpet and pews -- all of which and other conveniences have nothing to do with the issue of playing musical instruments in the gathering of saints. It's comparing apples and oranges.

Knowing or learning or speaking the truth is not Pharisaical.


Source: The Christian Chronicle Blog

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.210.195

"God Didn't Say Not To"

February 5 2012, 5:20 PM 

This is for Racnor. Earlier in this thread on December 21, 2011, Racnor stated that a poster at this site coined the expression "God didn't say not to." While I don't know who coined that expression, I'm quite sure it did not arise with that poster, because it can be found on various web sites. Here are a few examples:

Paul Smithson: http://www.bassfishing.org/thebiblespeaks/Articles/Authority/Bible/hedidntsay.htm

David F. Sims: http://bibledesktop.homestead.com/silence.html

Richard Fox: http://straitway.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=236&Itemid=26

Ron Hutchison: http://biblestudyweb.org/troubledoneveryside.html

Bob Pulliam:
http://www.fryroad.org/_fryroad/BibleStudyArticles/Authority/MusicinWorship/tabid/137/Default.aspx

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Prayer to "Mother of Perpetual Help Devotions"

February 7 2012, 1:05 AM 

The Holy Scripture does not say "not to" worship and pray to "The Virgin Mary, Mother of God."

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Wrong is Wrong Still Today!

February 7 2012, 8:27 AM 

Donnie said "The Holy Scripture does not say "not to" worship and pray to "The Virgin Mary, Mother of God.""

Donnie denies the Scriptures when it says in Matthew 4
10 Jesus said to him, Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.

When it says to worship him ONLY, that would exclude Donnie's worship of Mary.

Now, to continue the same thought.....does it say to sing ONLY?
Actually we have EXAMPLES of singing and playing TOGETHER throughout the Scriptures. Do we have any examples of faithful Christians worshiping Mary?
happy.gif
Good day!



 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Something in Common

February 8 2012, 2:41 AM 

Dave,

You asked about examples of "faithful Christians" worshiping Mary. Yes, devout Catholics, even those other than "Roman," consider themselves as "faithful Christians" ... and they do worship and pray to "The Virgin Mary, Mother of God."

I have news for you, Dave. You do have something in common with the Catholics regarding: "God did not say 'not to'; therefore, God authorizes."

(1) Catholics believe and teach that they are to worship and pray to Mary, since the Bible does not forbid it.

(2) Dave believes that instrumental music is not forbidden in Scripture. He sincerely believes that to search the Scripture for "sing ONLY" would be futile and, therefore, allows Christians not only to "sing only" but also to play in worship. Sounds like a faulty assumption and the wrong prescription.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.14.213

Re: Something in Common

February 8 2012, 9:45 AM 

Dave wrote: "Actually we have EXAMPLES of singing and playing TOGETHER throughout the Scriptures." If there are such "examples" in the New Testament, Dave failed to cite them. We know, however, that only wishful thinking prompted Dave's statement. Actually, we do NOT have such "examples" of Christians on earth singing and playing instruments together in worship in the New Testament, given Christ's admonitions through Paul to sing and make melody in the heart.

Perhaps Dave is referring to passages in the Old Testament, such as those in 2 Chronicles 29, which detail the cleansing of the Temple with burnt offerings to the tune of musical instruments. Even though Christ nailed the tenets of the Old Law to His cross (Col. 2:14), the worldly liberals still selectively (and desperately) fall back on the Old Testament. They hold up the musical instruments as "examples" to be used in Christian worship and thus conveniently dissect them from the burnt offerings those instruments serenaded.

Just as man cannot serve two masters--God and mammon--man cannot serve two Covenants--the Old and the New.

 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.93.54

Re: Something in Common

February 8 2012, 7:04 PM 

Perhaps Dave is referring to passages in the Old Testament, such as those in 2 Chronicles 29, which detail the cleansing of the Temple with burnt offerings to the tune of musical instruments. Even though Christ nailed the tenets of the Old Law to His cross (Col. 2:14), the worldly liberals still selectively (and desperately) fall back on the Old Testament. They hold up the musical instruments as "examples" to be used in Christian worship and thus conveniently dissect them from the burnt offerings those instruments serenaded.

Just as man cannot serve two masters--God and mammon--man cannot serve two Covenants--the Old and the New.

**********************************************

Perhaps, "B", needs to save a little of that preaching for a certain member of the CM choir. happy.gif If that is the way "B" really feels about the OT, why would he just pick on Dave?

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.243.13

Re: Something in Common

February 9 2012, 12:10 AM 

When Dave (or anyone else of like mind) tries to serve two masters or covenants and B reminds Dave/them not to do so, because the New Testament instructs Christians not to do so (Matt. 6:24 and Col. 2:14), perhaps Dave/they sees/see himself/themselves as a "martyr"/"martyrs" ("picked on"), because he/they is/are bent on serving two masters/covenants anyway.

 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.93.54

Re: Something in Common

February 9 2012, 1:29 PM 

"B", here is some more Scripture.


2 Timothy 3:16-17

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.







 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.128.247

But not the Lying Pen of the Scribes

February 9 2012, 7:43 PM 

Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,
being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

There is NO instrumental music commanded in the LAW: the two silver trumpets were to send SURE SIGNALS and not to be played in a silly rejoicing sense

And all of the prophets by Christ repudiates it as enchantment of sorcery.

 
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B
(no login)
98.87.219.190

Re: Something in Common

February 9 2012, 9:30 PM 

God inspired the Old Covenant as well as the New Covenant. The Old Covenant served its purpose until the coming of Christ, at which time God replaced it with the New Covenant, the Gospel of Christ. Now the Old Covenant has passed away as far as its hold on Christians. Observe:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second (Hebrews 8:6-7 KJV).

In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away (Hebrews 8:13 KJV).


The Old Covenant decayed and waxed old; hence, it has "vanished away," meaning that it has no hold on us today. Therefore, we Christians are not to adhere to it to justify our faith and worship. We adhere to the tenets of the New Testament. Galatians 5:1-6 tells us that if we justify our faith and worship by any of the tenets of the Old Covenant (the example Paul uses is circumcision), then we are required to keep ALL of the Old Covenant, and if we do that, we make Christ of no effect.

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Make It Up As You Go!

February 8 2012, 2:06 PM 

I made the statement "Actually we have EXAMPLES of singing and playing TOGETHER throughout the Scriptures. Do we have any examples of faithful Christians worshiping Mary?"

Donnie replied with "You asked about examples of "faithful Christians" worshiping Mary. Yes, devout Catholics, even those other than "Roman," consider themselves as "faithful Christians" ... and they do worship and pray to "The Virgin Mary, Mother of God."

I asked for examples from Scriptures. Are those examples from Scriptures?
No......same ole Donnie. You and Ken are a lot alike. If its not in the Scriptures, no problems, you can find it elsewhere.

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

For B (William Crump) Who Spits at the Old Law

February 9 2012, 12:43 PM 

Matthew 5
17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Is everything accomplished? Has heaven and earth disappeared?

 
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ken sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.128.247

stuff

February 9 2012, 1:23 PM 

Dave save your breath with personal jabs.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The Monarchy abandonment did NOT follow the Law of Moses.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.246.174

For Those Who Follow Two Covenants

February 9 2012, 2:32 PM 

Since we know that Jesus nailed the tenets of the Old Law to His cross (Col. 2:14), then there is no further need to practice them. Christ fulfilled--ACCOMPLISHED--the Old Law; now, heaven and earth can pass away in due course. Moreover, Christ through Paul told us that if we are justifed by the Old Law, then we make Christ of no effect. Observe:

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love (Gal. 5:1-6 KJV).

In this passage, "yoke of bondage" refers to the Old Law, and circumcision is only one example of the tenets of the Old Law by which men have justified their faith and worship. The passage applies to ALL tenets of the Old Law. Therefore if Christians use any part of the Old Law to justify their faith and worship, they become debtors to follow ALL the tenets of the Old Law (such as the multiple burnt offerings, dietary restrictions, feast days, multiple purification rituals, etc. etc.), and they make Christ of no effect.

So follow the commands, directions, and instructions in the New Testament and avoid dipping into the Old Testament to "justify" your worldly desires.

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Be the "B"

February 10 2012, 12:14 AM 

Well, certainly, William, if the Old Testament isn't to your liking, no one will make you read it or use it's counsel.
I highly prize ALL of God's Word.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Dave May Be a Mosaical/Levitical Christian

February 10 2012, 3:09 AM 

Dave,

Reading the Old Testament is for our learning, but it doesn't mean practicing the olden activities, Mosaic or patriarchal. Yes, there are eternal principles in the Old Testament that God's followers live by.

Christians read it and use its counsel; so, don't accuse others of not reading or learning from the Old Testament.

In the book of Hebrews, it is clearly stated that Christians are under a NEW and BETTER COVENANT of which Christ is the mediator.

Do you know the meaning of "covenant" or "testament"? Now, you do. Don't tell me that you do not "LIKE" the "NEW and BETTER" covenant/testament better than the OLD. happy.gif

 
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B
(no login)
74.240.208.238

New Covenant Better Than the Old Covenant

February 10 2012, 10:45 AM 

The Old Testament is certainly a valuable source for learning about ancient Hebrew history. On the other hand, since the New Testament says that the New Covenant is better than the Old Covenant, I wonder why Dave chooses to select whatever he wishes from the Old Testament (such as instrumental music, for example) and carry that into Christian worship. Are the tenets of the New Testament not morally and spiritually sufficient for him? Does he consider the New Testament so unfulfilling that he dips into the Old Testament for that which will satisfy his worldly desire for instrumental music in worship? Perhaps Dave should read again those passages in Hebrews that tell us that the New Covenant is better than the Old Covenant:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second (Hebrews 8:6-7 KJV).

In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away (Hebrews 8:13 KJV).


Notice that the last passage describes the Old Covenant as "decayeth and waxeth old."

 
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ken sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.138.253

"For our learning"

February 10 2012, 1:16 PM 

That's true: all of the Bible is good for our learning: If Psalm 137 wants the Babylonian infants to be dashed in the head, that should lead us to understand the mind of the writer: it is not our command to bash in baby heads.

Some Psalms are called "Teaching psalms." It helps to understand the nature of a people abandoned to themselves in order to do just the opposite.

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Cloak and Dagger

February 11 2012, 2:09 PM 

PICK and CHOOSE Theology
1 Peter 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel

1 Timothy 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array.

I Corinthians 11:5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head

I bet there are women in your families that do this, yet these writers have told you NOT to.

PICK and CHOOSE Theoloy.

WHY WHY WHY WHY.......

'well, that was a social pattern of that time, and it does not adhere to our standards today,' or 'its taken out of context.'

Which is it, or do you have a better excuse?
You say that you are under the New Testament Covenant, then why don't you obey it or have others to obey it?

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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