What's Your Excuse?
|February 11 2012, 4:24 PM |
Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you (Romans 16:16 KJV).
All the brethren greet you. Greet ye one another with an holy kiss (1 Cor. 16:20 KJV).
Greet one another with an holy kiss (2 Cor. 13:12).
Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss (1 Thess. 5:26).
Do all the men and women routinely kiss each other in the congregations? I thought not. Why do you not obey what is written?
Likewise, if you are under the New Testament Covenant, why do you overrule the New Testament and add instrumental music, when the New Testament only specifies vocal music? Is "God didn't say not to add IM" your excuse? Is selectively extracting from the Old Testament that which pleases you (pick-and-choose religion) and following two Covenants your excuse?
|February 11 2012, 5:13 PM |
But, this is the theology of the key THOUGHT LEADERS of the fatal fall into the arms of the Babylon Mother of Harlots. Not even Greek and Bible "doctors of the law" can escape.
We say: For readers of the text the use of instrumental noise in the presence of Jesus who died to give you REST from these laded burdens is a terminal sin.
The Post Modern response: "But you use toilet tissue in unauthorized rest rooms."
By calling you a hypocrite THEY THINK they neuturize the Biblical Text. As God made the musicators a laughing stock at Mount Sinai, I think that Jesus is just playing a joke on such theology.
If all churches sin by NOT giving a 'holy kiss' as an ACT of worship during the SERVICE, that would not alter a jot or tittle of the universal Biblical and historical association with religious musicians with the gay troubadors.
The direct command for the ekklesia or synagogue is "teach that which is written for our learning" and a holy kiss is never an act of worship.
No Babylonian Harlot Info Here....Sorry Ken!
|February 12 2012, 7:18 PM |
It's like you guys say.....instrumental music wasn't commanded in the Old Testament, but when David played and Miriam danced, played and sang.....were they rebuked? Psalms 150 is the same book that has the 23rd Psalm. You quote that one, but not Psalm 150.
PICK AND CHOOSE....
So if there isn't a command for either the OT or the NT, lets use the E for Example, and N for Necessary Inference from CENI and believe that if instrumental music wasn't rebuked or labeled as sinful in either the Old or New Covenant, then it is BEYOND wrong for man to make something a sin where God HAS NOT.
William Crump (B).....someone stalking you? Is that why you hiding behind B?
It Is Not a Matter of "If"
|February 12 2012, 8:59 PM |
It is not a matter of "IF" in: (1) a command, (2) an example or (3) a necessary inference or an implication. When God's saints assemble as a congregation, you can prove from both the Old Testament and New Testament:
(1) That there was/is NO COMMAND to use musical devices in the assembly of saints.
(2) That there was/is NO EXAMPLE to use musical devices in the assembly of saints.
(3) That there was/is NOTHING IMPLIED to use musical devices in the assembly of saints.
Do you understand NO, NONE or NOTHING?
Anything else is man's opinion, suggestion, choice, desire, preference, addition or idea.
Re: It Is Not a Matter of "If"
|February 12 2012, 10:48 PM |
Although Dave's congregation does not (yet) utilize instrumental music, Dave approves of its use in worship for either one or both of the following reasons: (1) the Old Testament mentions it, even though Christ nailed all the tenets of the Old Law to the cross (Col. 2:14); (2) "God didn't say not to use IM" in the New Testament, even though the latter specifically instructs us to sing and make melody in our hearts. Therefore, Dave and others of like mind take it upon themselves to dictate to God that if the text of God's specific commands does not include an exhaustive list of every conceivable thing forbidden, then man may freely ADD to the text of God's commands with whatever pleases man.
Re: It Is Not a Matter of "If"
|February 13 2012, 12:11 AM |
(1) That the Old Testament mentions instrumental music does not prove that it was commanded; or that it was an example; and/or that its use was necessarily inferred [implied].
Instrumental music, with or without dancing, was NEVER a part of the Old Law, either. Technically, it could not have been nailed to the cross because it was never part of all the components that comprised the Old Law or the Old Covenant. The Mosaic and its accompanying sacrificial system (burnt offerings and blood sacrifices), was nailed to the cross.
Yes, David, king of Israel and a skilled musician, practiced his own commandment to offer praise with musical instruments and DANCING (Psalm 150:4, the IM lover's favorite passage). Let's not forget that historical accounts from both the Scripture and outside of Scripture prove that DANCING and INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC go hand in hand and are inseparable.
But so did King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. See Daniel 3 for a complete account of such form of musical idolatry. Just like Psalm 150, it mentions various musical instruments -- "That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of music, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up" (verse 5).
It appears, then, that if David Fields should ever attempt to implement the use of mechanical music in his congregation, he would have to defer DANCING to a much later date.
Re: It Is Not a Matter of "If"
|February 13 2012, 9:01 AM |
So then we may conclude that Dave approves of instrumental music because: (1) the Old Testament mentions it (that alone is enough for some folks) and/or (2) "God didn't say not to use instruments" (that alone is enough for many other folks), which is the same as saying, "God grants approval of anything through His silence."
Desperate people will always find excuses to "justify" their worldly pleasures.
They BURN soothsayers you know
|February 14 2012, 1:46 PM |
That's FACTS not arrogance: arrogance is making the widow's purse feed your face while performing the role of a PARASITE (Levites)
|john watson smith|
comment on the list of churches
|February 13 2012, 7:28 PM |
Consider that the word of God in Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16 says to everyone "make melody in the heart". Nothing about putting on a show or adopting theater ideas to impress men. Its about pleasing God with our worship of him.
Consider that worship is man bowing to the will of God. Worship is not a show of mans talent and excellence. Worship is self examination and realization that we stand before a holy God who sees and knows all. What place does the instrument serve?
Consider that there is nothing in the scriptures that allows the more musically talented to offer better worship. If so where is it taught in the Bible? Its the heart that offers worship.
Consider that the present state of congregations that once taught and lived the truth is one of confusion. One of those reasons is the inability of many leaders to define the issues by the Bible and give Bible direction. God is not the author of confusion - man is.
No list of faithful churches should include congregations that use instruments.
|February 13 2012, 9:26 PM |
I believe that the problem is that most do not comprehend the meaning of worship. In a litteral sense we would fall on our face if we comprehend that God is God and we are not. As you noted since we do not worship in the flesh, we bow to Christ when we look at His Words as something to be read and understood. A lot of people are misled and "few are chosen"but I doubt that people have understood anything about the nature of God when they think that they can enhance his word.
Furthermore, I cannot comprehend people who would pay good money for people claining that they can lead you into the presence of god--for a price. The fact that up to half of invaded congregations quickly or some time later do not "look back" but leave their "investment" and leave. The musical invaders admit that they can replace the old owners with the new ceremonialism which is legalism
Re: comment on the list of churches
|February 15 2012, 1:20 PM |
John Smith, I agree with your statement, "It's the heart that offers worship". I would like your opinion on the recent use of four-part harmony as used for singing in the Church worship service. Thanks.
|February 15 2012, 6:58 PM |
Worship is not WITH the hear but IN the heart.
God IS Spirit (mind) and must be worshipped IN Spirit (Mind) using The Spirit OF Truth.
God is not worshipped in HOUSES built by human hands nor by the WORKS of human hands.
In Romans 13 the FLESH must be burned up or consumed so you can perform RATIONAL worship or Spiritual Worship.
You cannot "worship" WITH LOUD MUSIC as long as you do it with SPIRIT or Enthusiasm.
respond regarding 4 part harmony
|February 16 2012, 7:38 PM |
You have a interesting question.
I ll answer by saying the Bible teaches participation by all. To separate out a group and have them sing in 4 part harmony is not of the word of God but of the tradition of men. Everyone is to sing and think on the words we are singing. It is praise and adoration of God and the works he has done in our behalf. Bible worship singing is in no way a display of someones musical talents which supposedly merit "better" or "superior" worship.
The current issues regarding singing have stemmed from the TV and the entertainment industry. Church people read books, see things on TV and radio and want to copy the methods. Its counterpart in the Bible is the children of Israel who wanted to be like the nations round about them. Remember we are not spectators in the worship assembly - we are participants.
The attitude and mind set of the singer is whats important, singing ability is not. We are to have the focus and concentration on God not on mans talents.
The grace of God has instructed us to live sober righteous and godly lives looking for he blessed hope and appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Nothing about being a showcase for certain members talents
Paul an educated and talented man said God forbid that I should glory save in the cross of Christ. Nothing about being a showcase for talents to the early church.
Thanks for your comment
Re: respond regarding 4 part harmony
|February 17 2012, 1:03 AM |
Of course, we must remember that the New Testament only addresses singing and making melody in our hearts. It addresses neither harmony, nor tempo, nor volume of our singing. Had the New Testament done so, then we would have been bound by the limitations of the New Testament. Since the New Testament does not address those items mentioned, then man is at liberty to choose what kind of harmony to sing, how loudly or softly to sing, and how fast or slowly to sing. Some "traditions" of man do not conflict with the doctrine of the New Testament. For example, it may be a tradition of a church to worship at 10 AM on the first day of the week. The New Testament does not address a specific time of worship, so man is free to make that time a tradition, as long as he understands that it is not a sin to vary that time. Likewise, since the New Testament does not address harmony, it is not a sin to sing in unison or in two-, three-, or four-part harmony. Man can make a mountain out of a molehill about anything for the sake of ridiculous argument.
If, however, man says that refraining from singing with instruments is making a mountain out of a molehill, then he oversteps his bounds. The New Testament DOES address the KIND of music we are to use, which is VOCAL MUSIC. We are NOT free to supplement or add to the text or content of a command with whatever we wish. Hence, we are NOT free to add instrumental music to the vocal music, because vocal music is the only kind of music that the New Testament specifies.
God Has the Last Word, not Man!
|February 14 2012, 9:40 AM |
Since Donnie believes that the IF is out when it comes to commands for instrumental worship, again, when you read Psalms 150 or ever see a Scripture with David playing and/or singing.....do you ever find a rebuke from God? There was no command for playing instruments in the OT, but was David or Miriam rebuked for their dancing and singing and playing? They were both rebuked for other sins, but NOT PLAYING, and SINGING, nor DANCING.
1 Corinthians 10:31
31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.
J. Smith said "Worship is not a show of mans talent and excellence. Worship is self examination and realization that we stand before a holy God who sees and knows all. What place does the instrument serve?"
So if we have a man who can lead singing while others do not have that talent in an a cappela worship, is that also "a show of man's talent and excellence?"
At Work we have CEOs and those who work on the line making much lower wages.....is that wrong? We have preachers who preach....and some who do not wish to do so.....is that wrong? IS that too "a show of man's talent and excellence?"
Ask the question: A person playing the organ or piano, like William Crump used to do, are they not able to worship while playing? Remember here, to, that there is no way ANY of you can actually answer that because you DO NOT know the heart of anyone but your own.
What place does the instrument serve? It accompanies and aids the voice although not directly commanded int the Scriptures. What place does the PA system serve? It accompanies and aids the voice, but not commanded directly in the Scriptures?
We can and HAVE argued this point week after week, month after month, year after year. Listen to what the Scriptures say....
1 Corinthians 10
Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.
Even Paul could not please everyone in every way.....and neither can we.
No doubt about this one testament.....instrumental music is NOT sinful. The Scriptures prove this. If you don't like the instrument, then don't worship where they use them.
My main point here is that this site isn't even about trying to prove that instrumental music is sinful Donnie Cruz and others went after a beautiful Madison church of Christ that brought in some change, NOT INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC, but changes that these busy bodies didn't agree with. Many at Madison didn't agree with it. They left because they couldn't worship there with the proposed changes. Donnie should have left. Instead, certain men became wicked and spiteful and set up this site to tear down men and churches of Christ that didn't conform to their traditions. Again, are traditions wrong? No, but when men go after others who want to change their traditions, then the sin occurs.
This site and more than that, the actions of their heart has condemned them.
|February 14 2012, 1:33 PM |
Re: Pick and Choose
|February 14 2012, 5:57 PM |
Dave, your post on Feb.11 is a great example of the pick and choose theology. Another poster, John Smith reverts back to the Eph.5:19 verse as an example to prove that IM is not acceptable in what we call a "worship service". The good thing is it makes me go back and read the entire chapter again. And again I concluded that the chapter is addressing how a Christan should conduct their lives daily. I also have a question. Does anyone actually read an entire posting by Mr. Subblett? I think I made have read one through once in 11 years. I started to go back and read it again but decided I would be better off reading the fifth chapter of Ephesians again.
Good: don't overload yourself Jimmy Joe
|February 14 2012, 6:28 PM |
|This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 188.8.131.52 on Feb 19, 2012 3:21 AM|
|February 16 2012, 12:18 PM |
Mr.Subblett, There is a huge difference in overloading myself and just wasting my time.
You MUST not waste your time.
|February 16 2012, 12:26 PM |
I give you permission not to read: I never make that a condition of my posts anymore than your preacher cares a hoot whether you agree with him or not: just so you put something in the pot!
My guess is that you don't listen to the preacher either: I used to do Bible Study during the rhetoric and music (that hypocritic thingy Jesus warned about." I always came home being edified by God in Christ.