|February 19 2012, 11:49 PM |
Mr. Subblett I do not need your permission to do anything. I'm way past 21 although not as far as you. When you guess at what other people do that is the same as making an assumption. I'm sure you know what they say about people that assume things. I hope you had a great first day of the week in Hoenwald because I sure did in Orange Beach, AL.
|February 20 2012, 12:52 AM |
Are you saying that Mr. Subblett is wiser, more mature, more experienced and more knowledgeable than you?
|February 20 2012, 8:33 PM |
Donnie, you may assume anything you want about me. However, if you want to know me just stick around sometime after the late service and meet me in person. I cannot answer the many questions you asked me in another post but I could introduce you to one of the elders that may be able to give you the answers to the questions you pose.
I Was Conversing, Not Assuming
|February 20 2012, 9:39 PM |
Be assured that I was only conversing with you ... and joking -- not assuming.
I know that you know where I sit. Where do you sit?
1) The elders are not hard to spot. So, if I wanted answers from the elders' mouths, I would ask them specifically. But I would say that the ministers for the most part have been left alone by the elders to make "executive decisions" by themselves: (a) preaching minister Phil Barnes and (b) "worship" minister [now] George Pendergrass. In other words, they've been "pre-approved." In that case, wysiwyg ["what you see is what you get"--for those who are not familiar with that expression].
2) I really wanted answers from regular members like you and me. Really, there is no harm in you telling me that you didn't know or would rather not say.
|john watson smith|
pick and choose vocal music
|February 22 2012, 3:59 PM |
By way of the following logic I stand by my statements that Eph 5 and Col 3 apply to us today and specify what music God wants.
We should not abandon a sound and sensible approach to Bible study and interpretation. In Isaiah 1:18 the message to the people is "come let us reason together"
We have thinking capacity and the ability to reason what God wants from us. We should therefore follow that pattern of reasoning in our review of the scripture.
Human beings are obligated to go to the Bible and learn what Good wants us to think and practice same. Two illustrations from the scripture are I Thess 5:21 and I John 4:1 both directing us to evaluate what is said taught or believed against the scriptures. We should therefore review the scriptures citing worship of God and discount anything sourced from the traditions of men. If not why not?
We should accept the Bible as absolute truth and totally relevant to us today. Some of the many scriptures which indicate this are Acts 17 explaining evidence that Christ would offer himself and Acts 26 where Paul is said to utter words of sober truth. The instructions given to ministers and elders in Titus and TImothy all reflect truth that is complete and will not change in the present age. If not why not?
I hear some are saying there is no pattern, guide or blueprint. I turn to Acts 18 and see that the way of God had to be explained to someone even though they were dynamic and well versed in some of the scriptures. There was and is a pattern of behavior, facts to be believed and virtues to be developed among christians. Among these things is the way of worship specified and laid down so that everyone can understand and follow. Who can confirm that there is no pattern in the new testament?
I hear of others who say there is only a core gospel and that we cannot divide on any non core issue. Jesus however said that we were to teach all things he has commanded to all the world in Matt 28. Who is man to pick and choose what is the core gospel and what is not. So someone is going to edit the BIble and tell us what we can hold firm to? Someone is using a faulty pick and choose method but it isn't those who want strict adherence to the new testament!
|February 22 2012, 5:07 PM |
Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs are types of poetry in the book of Psalms.
In Romans 15 paul defined the assembly without using the "singing in the heart" concept.
Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
Romans 15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
Romans 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning,
....that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Romans 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you
....to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify [praise] God,
.....even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.
Since there was no congregational singing until after John Calvin let some of the songs be set to meter, what do you think about making up your own songs (scripture) and performing them with harmony which was originated as "in the style of the organ?"
|john watson smith|
|February 23 2012, 10:58 PM |
Consider that the passage in Romans 15 also includes the statement "sing" in verse 9. Looking at that we have a quote in Romans from David in II Sam 22 and Psalm 18. While we can't force assembly on that verse it is likely that the singing referenced was done with others involved also. As stated in all three places it is a song of
praise and thanksgiving to God. It is therefore an example of what singing is to be about. We can look at other scriptures and get further guidance on the subject of singing in the christian age.
Regarding Calvin the 16th century reformer I remember him as the author of Calvinism as such I don't use him as a guide or marker.
In the scriptures I find evidence that there was singing in congregations from day one onward. Consider Matt 26/Mark 14 where the record states "they sung a hymn"
Consider also Acts 26 where Paul and Silas prayed and "sang hymns". In the book of psalms many references are made to singing. I think we can conclude that those who knew the scriptures sang and taught others to do the same. When the letters to Eph and Col were written and passed around the guidance and scope of how singing was to be done was made known.
Regarding the meter question I don't think this invalidates using the song. It would be a stretch to say we can't use songs which contain the notes and beats per measure etc. What invalidates the song is forcing the assembly to concentrate on the notes and beat such that the thoughts and ideas in the song are lost in the musical details. Where I attend the song leader has on occasion said remember we are singing to one another and praising God. THis is done with song books showing notes and musical details.
Abuse of Scripture
|February 14 2012, 6:30 PM |
Ken, the problem is, when you abuse those Scriptures to show David as not being God's chosen and not a man that God loved......you let me know.....that you have no place teaching.....any man....about God.
|February 14 2012, 7:05 PM |
Dave, you just CANNOT get it. David was a king given in God's anger when the elders demanded a NATIONAL (gentile) king.
David's people were the ARMY and never the priest. David commanded the ARMY.
The Levites (soothsayers) were under the direction of the KING and COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY.
David was not a "worship leader" and he never led a "worship service." David never led a congregation in singing and playing instruments.
When David let the wrath of God fall on the people for HIS sins, he finally performed a PLAGUE STOPPING EXORCISM. However, no instruments were used.
About 300 years later Hezekiah used the PATTERN of David's Plague Stopping Exorcism. Now the PATTERNISM of all of the MUSICAL APOSTATES.
The Levites played the musical instruments during the GOAT BURNT OFFERING but Christ says that sacrifices or burnt offerings were NOT commanded when God rescued them by grace out of Egypt. They fell back into musical idolatry and God sentenced them to captivity and death.
The GODLY people attended synagogue EVERY rest day and "vocal or instrumental rejoicing was outlawed."
Why do you think that ALL of the people who assume the right to SOW MASSIVE DISCORD because of their superiority, can only come up with WELL DAVID DID IT when the universalm ACT when the assembly comes together is READ and SPEAK and never "sing with instrumental accompaniment." Seems like desparate people lost but too PRIDEFUL to repent.
Use your computer and look up the words SING, Speak and Read.
King David's Music and Dancing
|March 11 2012, 11:19 PM |
It appears that Dave Fields is assuming that David, king of Israel and a skilled musician, played his musical instruments and DANCED (Psalm 150) to praise God in the assembly of saints.
I'm looking for a passage that supports Dave's assumption: that King David performed for and before the congregation.
Re: King David's Music and Dancing
|March 12 2012, 1:29 AM |
King David leaped and DANCED before the Lord (II Samuel 6:14,16).
In What We Call a "Worship Service"
|February 19 2012, 5:15 AM |
In response to a post, "Re: Pick and Choose" (February 14 2012, 5:57 PM), JimmyJoe stated:
Dave, your post on Feb.11 is a great example of the pick and choose theology. Another poster, John Smith reverts back to the Eph.5:19 verse as an example to prove that IM is not acceptable in what we call a "worship service". The good thing is it makes me go back and read the entire chapter again. And again I concluded that the chapter is addressing how a Christan should conduct their lives daily....
There is no such expression found in the Scripture as "worship service." The Protestant denominations came up with that expression even BEFORE they adopted or inherited the use of mechanical (instrumental) music from the Roman Catholic Church (and its pope).
("Before" is underscored because of the fact that certain Protestant church founders and leaders were opposed to IM. "John Calvin, in Geneva, argued that while instrumental music had its time with the Levites of the Old Testament, it was no longer a proper expression for the church. This was expanded upon by John Knox (see Presbyterian worship); only Psalms were sung, and they were sung a cappella.")
To many postmodern churches in Christendom, "worship service" is better known as "corporate worship."
Whether we refer to it as "worship service" or "corporate worship," what that consists of is significant in the congregation. I prefer to use expressions such as the saints' "gathering" -- ("brethren, ... by our gathering together unto him" [II Thess. 2:1]) -- or "assembly" -- ("if there come unto your assembly" [Jas. 2:2]; "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together" [Heb. 10:25].
John Smith's reference to Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 is not a matter of "pick and choose" theology. These passages strongly imply a "gathering" or an "assembly." It is clearly stated: "speaking to yourselves." It is also clearly stated: "teaching and admonishing one another."
The only argument against the assembly or gathering is if a 1500-member congregation calls one another by phone or has a teleconference in order to speak to one another or to teach and admonish one another.
Again, there is:
(1) NO command and/or ...
(2) NO example and/or ...
(3) NO necessary inference (or implication)
... authorized by God or the Scripture to use inanimate and lifeless musical instruments and devices in the assembly.
Re: In What We Call a "Worship Service"
|April 2 2012, 2:12 PM |
You wouldn't be having this argument if you knew that CENI is a flawed and invalid hermeneutical technique. Talk about the blind leading the blind...
Re: In What We Call a "Worship Service"
|April 2 2012, 9:09 PM |
Your assertion that CENI is "a flawed and [an] invalid hermeneutical technique" is extremely weak. You must prove it.
I'll be glad to cite other instances (besides the unauthorized use of instrumental devices in the saints' assembly). Just let me know.
|March 12 2012, 12:22 PM |
Donnie Cruz mentioned about instruments of music.....
"Again, there is:
(1) NO command and/or ...
(2) NO example and/or ...
(3) NO necessary inference (or implication)
27 He answered, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and, Love your neighbor as yourself.
Did God AUTHORIZE King David to praise Him with instruments? NO!
Was David rebuked for doing so in his Psalms and any of his actions? NO!
When God was displeased with man in the Scriptures we always knew about it.
David was LOVED by God.
Donnie, the problem is, you should have stuck with your commitment to David being a part of the OT and anything with the OT should never be linked to our life with the new covenant. At least, then, you sound coherent.
|March 12 2012, 7:32 PM |
Donnie said "It appears that Dave Field s is assuming that David, king of Israel and a skilled musician, played his musical instruments and DANCED (Psalm 150) to praise God in the assembly of saints."
Where does that assumption (one among many) come from?
ANYHOW, so YOU are saying that it is ok for a man to play the instrument before God, and please Him (as David did), but the same can't be done in front of others in a worship setting?
God allows worship through instruments (Psalm 150), but it is not good enough for other men?
That is why I don't come here very often anymore.....it isn't a matter of not knowing, but men, here at this site, that just don't care. They make it up as they go for they surely don't render this falsehoods from the Word of God.
|March 12 2012, 7:42 PM |
The Change Agents' Deceit
|April 2 2012, 3:19 AM |
The main argument is the validity of the change agents' proposal to change the apostolic tradition of the historical New Testament church that Christ founded. The apostolic tradition has been that the first century church did not engage in mechanical instrumental music in their assemblies. That is an accurate, historical fact. Period.
I'm emphasizing "apostolic" tradition to contrast that with "man-made" tradition. YOU and the change agents have labeled the church of Christ (of which you claim to be a member) as practicing a "man-made" tradition of not using or of being opposed to instrumental music.
Here's the contrast:
We cannot deny that King David was a skilled musician and probably a professional dancer. Whatever he did was between him and God. Whatever the pagans did with their natural abilities regarding music and dancing was between them and God ... was between them and their gods. (Dave, please don't even begin to tell me that playing musical instruments and dancing are spiritual gifts and skills. For sure, don't confuse natural gifts with spiritual gifts, OK?)
- Man-made tradition -- worship of "The Virgin Mary, 'Mother of God'"
- Apostolic tradition -- assembly of saints without the musical noise
Besides the fact that NOWHERE in the entire Bible has God ever directed His followers to worship Him with musical instruments, David's PERFORMANCE was not before the congregants or in the assembly of saints.
The non-use of musical instruments when the church assembles is NOT a "man-made church of Christ tradition." Rather, the use of musical instruments in the assembly is a/the man-made tradition. It has become a man-made tradition since the Roman Catholic Church and the pope originated its implementation. Is that shocking to you? It shouldn't be as the Roman Catholic Church dominates the rest of the denominational world in instituting myriads of man-made traditions for its members.
Here's an important message for you and the change agents:
Speaking of "making up" doctrine, please don't ever accuse and blame the church of Christ -- and you claim to be a member of that body -- of "making up" such a teaching or practice. Of all people, as a leader of your own congregation, you should be strong and bold in upholding what the church believes and teaches. Of all members of the church, you should not endorse such a practice for which there is no evidence in Scripture. Instead, you are doing the opposite -- giving the impression that the church of Christ is wrong and opinionated by maintaining its stand against that which God has not directed.
- The Roman Catholic Church initiated the use of musical devices;
- Many of the Protestant denominations, several centuries later, have imitated and propagated such a man-made Catholic tradition; and
- Now the change agents and you are wanting the church of Christ to acquire and practice the man-made tradition of the Catholic and Protestant churches.
|April 2 2012, 10:04 PM |
I believe that the claim that "ANTI-instrumental church of christ became sectarian legalists when they refused to have instruments imposed" may be the most damnable lie ever invented by the Devil. Thy go so far as to say that the "conservatives" INVENTED not using instruments simply because they were evil.
It is particularly blasphemous when it is used by most of the once-Christian Colleges by "scholars" and most of the "bloggers" who eat one anothers leavings in order to get on the "lecture circuit."
The brothers of Jesus thought that He could win prizes at the Feast of Tabernacles which men like John Mark Hicks who claims that Jesus participated and endorsed this fertility ritual.
I would say that anyone who repeats that claim is terminally ignorant or terminally evil. It is a fact that John calls the teknokrats of religion such as singers and instrument players SORCERERS. He said that they HAD deceived the whole world and who can deny that the world is populated by defunct spirits who are under the Devil as father: Jesus said that the sons of the Devil SPEAK ON THEIR OWN.
Christ in Jeremiah 23 says that people who speak for God when God has not spoken are blasphemers and that may be the meaning of the ELECT. Remember that Jesus refused to speak to the VIPERS and John promised that they would receive the baptism of FIRE which comes right after the baptism of WIND (spirit) which separates chaff from the grain. Jesus deliberately did not let the Jewish clergy in on His secrets LEST they repent and be saved. Matthew 11 makes it clear that God HIDES from the wise (Sophists meaning rhetoricians, singers and instrument players) and does not PRAY for the WORLD.
Truth leaves you hanging out on a limb without any aid or comfort even from the "conservatives."
If these people even TRY to repent of this terminal sin, the Book of Enoch sings to you "no turning back, no turning back."
Babylon Mother of Harlots Part One
|December 9 2013, 3:34 PM |
You should know that Moses began to write about the Babylonian (Hebrew) AFTER the nation fell into Musical Idolatry at Mount Sinai for which sin God sentenced them BACK to Babylon and beyond to suffer and die except for a small remnant.
Genesis does not record the creation of the universe but of the eternal context between the Babylon Mother of Harlots (Inanna etal) who stole all of the rulership, musical, and devious sexuality from the FATHER god AND the only real God who serves HIS CREATURES making it impossible to do anything but "rest and come learn of Me." The contest began in heaven when Lucifer [Zoe and Eve (by the feminists) as the singing and harp-playing prostitute was CAST AS PROFANE out of Heaven and into the Garden of Eden. CREATED here means CAST AS PROFANE. That is the HALAL praise word or CHALAL which is the root meaning of LUCIFER.
The story of this CONTEXT, by one account, comes to a CLIMAX around the year 2000 or the sixth Day. Many astronomers noted the date which happened in 2012 when the Earth moved to the other side of the galaxy center. Who can doubt that both the nation and the CHURCH got an early start in EXACTLY fulfilling Abaddon or Apollyon being UNLEASHED from the smokey pit to be KING of the MUSES: In Revelation 17 they are under the Babylon Mother of Harlots. In chapter 18 they are lusted after FRUITS (same as Amos 8) as SELF-preachers (sons of the Devil, says Jesus), singers, instrument players, technokrats (STAFF) and GRINDERS whose piping sound of the millstone marked the location of the local prostitute. The Classics and Paul marked any religious marketeer as a PROSTITUTE even as the Levite Instrument players (sorcerers) are called PARASITES.
It is too horrible to even think about when you see people SELLING the Mark (musical performance) of the BEAST (a new style music and drama.) The Serpent in the garden of eden was a cunning, slippery creature whose CARNAL WEAPON was also this singing and playing which is UNIVERSALLY noted as the weapon of enchantment, sorcery or witchcraft: fittingly the INSTRUMENTAL SOUNDS are proof that God is driving His enemies into hell (Isaiah 30) or into the Lake of Fire.
That's good: All of the SIGNS are that music as the most vicious and EFFECTIVE weapon on all but the ELECT who will barely be saved. The instruments in Psalm 150 or HALAL 150 are the instruments of the prostitute: the psalmist who had been abandoned to worship the starry host wanted to worship IN THE FIRMAMENT. (missed Acts 7 in the Phd study?). The NACC along with PEPPERDINE and ACU brought in a monk to teach them how to do COSMIC WORSHIP: Jesus doesn't pray for the KOSMOS the kingdom of Satan.
No one in the earliest recorded history on clay tablets DID NOT KNOW that people who use musical tones on you INTEND TO HURT YOU to intimidate your or induce a sexual feeling which makes you support those John Calvin called "lazy asses."
The Bible and contemporaneous documents DO not see instrumental music as a CAUSE of Division and Apostasy but a MARK or SIGN of the BEAST. The beast or serpent in the garden of Eden does its devious, slippery work by winding musical performance: Jesus and Paul called them the CROOKED RACE or VIPER race. Jesus proves that there are those OF THE WORLD or Kosmos as OUTED at the NACC this year as COSMIC WORSHIP induced by a monkish professor teaching spiritual formation as Ignatian Retreats: You remember the guy used as a foundation for the massive Holocaust. The Spirit OF Christ in Isaiah 30 and John in Revelation says that the MARKS of God driving His enemies into hell or the Lake of
Fire will be wind, string and percussion instruments: this chapter promises the Assyrians and Jews what they did when they burned CHILDREN to Molech or the Devil. This time they will be alert and not consumed for ever and ever amen!