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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

"The two are not the same"

March 2 2012, 2:19 AM 

Brian,

I was afraid you would make that kind of a distinction.

And that's exactly what the change agents are saying.

So, how would you respond to someone asking you: "Brian, are you a member of the "Church of Christ" or the "church of Christ"?

One or the other, but not both?

 
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BrianCade
(no login)
216.67.46.20

Re: "The two are not the same"

March 2 2012, 2:33 AM 

I would say that I am a Christian. I know my Bible well enough to know that's never going to change. I'm not so sure I want to be identified as a member/participant of the restorationist group that calls itself the Church of Christ. If that makes me a change agent, I apologize. I'm just tired of fighting the same battles over and over.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.8.29

Re: Who is more aligned with restoration

February 29 2012, 9:53 PM 

If a person is truly loyal to Christ, then s/he will be a member of the Church that Christ founded, which is the Church of Christ. S/he will not be a member of the Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, or any of the scores of other denominations, because Christ never founded them. Not one of those denominations is mentioned in the New Testament, because they are man-made. The New Testament mentions those congregations that are loyal to Christ, which are the churches of Christ. Observe:

The churches of Christ salute you (Romans 16:16b KJV).

Notice that the New Testament does NOT say, "The Baptist churches salute you," or "The Roman Catholic churches salute you," or "The Presbyterian churches salute you," etc. etc. blah blah. Those who are truly loyal to Christ comprise the Church of Christ. The individually loyal congregations are the churches of Christ.

The denominations cannot be members of the Church of Christ, because they are NOT completely loyal to Christ's teachings. Some denominations allow female officers in the Church; others dismiss baptism as essential for salvation; most denominations have instrumental music; some allow divorce and remarriage for any reason, as long as the two parties are "in love," because (so they reason) God would not want people to be unhappy; some also allow homosexual officers in the Church; some condone rattling off prefabricated, professionally written prayers over and over, which are forms of vain repetition; many observe "special holy days" (which the New Testament does not confirm) in addition to the first day of the week; many subscribe to "God didn't say not to," when nothing of the sort is recorded in the New Testament. The list could go on and on.

 
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JimmyJoe
(no login)
68.53.98.60

Read all of it

March 1 2012, 12:23 AM 

Hey B. How about Church of God? Acts 20:28 and 1Cor. 15:9. Can one not assume either name to be Biblically correct? Church of Christ and Church of God are both in the New Testament.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Grammatical Structure May Help

March 1 2012, 4:13 AM 

JimmyJoe,

Please read the message I posted earlier (Feb. 29) as it may illustrate my point regarding simple grammatical rules that we already know about. The word "church" is an improper noun, as improper as the word "nose" or "body" or "foot." When used in a sentence, an improper noun may not be capitalized. A good example of it is: "The churches of Christ salute you" (Rom. 16:16). In fact, the word "church" or "churches" occurs 114 times in the New Testament (KJV). None of either word is capitalized.

An improper noun is capitalized when it begins a sentence. It may be capitalized in the title of an article, a book, etc.

I'm bringing this up in that such simple grammatical rules assist me personally in thinking and believing that the church of Christ Jesus or the church of God or the Lord's church or Christ's church or God's church is NOT A DENOMINATION.

The apostle Paul wrote letters to "the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thess. 1:1) ... "unto the churches of Galatia" (Gal. 1:2); etc.

There's no question that in the first century these were congregations of the church that belongs to Christ or God or the Lord.

 
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B
(no login)
74.240.240.155

Re: Grammatical Structure May Help

March 1 2012, 9:06 AM 

Perhaps JimmyJoe was trying to imply that Church of Christ and Church of God are two different "denominations."

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
66.230.84.233

Re: Grammatical Structure May Help

March 1 2012, 3:00 PM 

There's no question that in the first century these were congregations of the church that belongs to Christ or God or the Lord

Donnie, no argument here. However, I am not so convinced that the Church of Christ, despite the good intentions of the founders and the membership, is the same as the churches of Christ found in the New Testament.What I do know for certain is that the New Testament churches didn't grow their memberships by verbally beating up their converts. For the most part,it was done by loving persuasion despite the hard truths they were given to teach.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Grammatical Structure May Help

March 2 2012, 3:16 AM 

Brian,

It's good that your post has reminded me to clarify myself further -- that there is only one church established by Christ but that the word "churches" is in reference to the various congregations (in Thessalonica, Ephesus, Rome, Corinth, and other regions) of the church in that era.

In addition, the word "churches" does not refer to "denominational groups," either. There were no Catholic and Protestant denominations at the time, and so it was clearly understood that the church belonged to its only founder, Christ. (Considering our confusing times now, it is no longer practical to identify the church as belonging to Christ in a locality by purposely removing or dropping the name "of Christ" as its founder.)

I gather from your post, however, that you're in agreement with the change agents' proclamation that the RM leaders founded the "Church of Christ" -- which to them [and to you] is just "another denomination." If that's the case, such mindset is absolutely repulsive as it would lead us to conclude that it really does not matter which denomination we prefer and become members of.

(Let's not get "reformation" and "restoration" confused.)

But I've got news -- if the RM leaders were alive today, they would be the first ones to reject that designation of being "founders" of a denomination while they would be denouncing denominationalism.

I can't think of a New Testament church today that grows it membership by verbally beating up its members. Perhaps, you need to explain what you meant by that statement.

 
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JimmyJoe
(no login)
68.53.98.60

Grammer

March 1 2012, 3:30 PM 

Sorry Donnie, I stand corrected. Evidently english grammer was not my best subject. However, I hope B (or is that b) got the gist of my post. See you Sunday.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

My Message Was Directed to Interested Viewers

March 3 2012, 12:56 AM 

JimmyJoe,

Hopefully, you didn't take it personally at all. It was not my intent to be insulting. Sorry about that.

Rather, the objective of my message was to illustrate a very significant point that the Christian, a truly converted individual who is now and still a member of the body of Christ, should have the honest conviction to know and believe and to teach others that the church that Christ established is NOT a religious denomination.

My constant awareness of the grammatical structure of the expression "the church of Christ" or "the church of our Lord" or "the body of Christ" (i.e., the word "church" being a common or an improper noun and is not capitalized), has ingrained in me the truth that the body of Christ can never be classified as a religious denomination.

One is either a member of the body of Christ or he is not. The Scripture teaches: (1) that God's grace [and that is God's part and is not to be minimized or maximized or altered by man] has been offered to all; and (2) that man opts to accept or to reject God's offer of free redemption in the blood of Christ the Redeemer.

The gospel of Christ is God's power unto man's redemption (Romans 1:16) and it is to be obeyed (II Thess. 1:8). It is obeyed when one outside of Christ believes, repents and is baptized in order for his sins to be remitted (Acts 2:38). This new birth experience adds him to the church and wears the name of Christ (he is a "CHRIST-ian").

What's denominational about one going through that conversion process: ... clearly when one is buried with Christ in baptism and is risen (resurrected) with Christ -- cleansed; redeemed; refreshed or receiving a pure, holy spirit or a clear conscience; the burden of sin removed -- to BEGIN newness of life?

 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.47.203

Re: Who is more aligned with restoration

March 1 2012, 8:25 AM 

Perhaps, "B", is saying "God didn't say not to" to use the sign out front (SOF) of the Church building to determine if one is a Christian or not?

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.242.2

Re: Who is more aligned with restoration

March 2 2012, 3:12 AM 

Christ never addressed the SOF, because there was no need at the time: the first-century believers and followers of Christ WERE Christians. They were NOT Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Catholics, etc. etc. blah blah. Today, it seems that the SOF is actually necessary to identify those who ARE Christians vs. those who IMAGINE themselves to be Christians but are sadly mistaken. Discerning folks will really know the difference.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
216.67.73.227

Re: Who is more aligned with restoration

March 4 2012, 2:35 AM 

Thing is, the sign out front is no guarantee that the people inside are who they say they are.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

SOF

March 4 2012, 6:30 AM 

I could be wrong, but I feel that you are of those with a confused identity regarding the church of Christ of which you are a member. If you are not, let me state in advance that I am sorry.

But my point is that there is quite a bit to know about what the change agents in the brotherhood are doing that, perhaps unbeknownst to them, are demeaning to and undermining the church that Christ established. They are attempting to rewrite the history of the Restoration Movement and go so far as to state that the RM leaders are the founders of the denomination "Church of Christ." That was never the intent of the Movement, which has to be differentiated and distinguished from the Reformation Movement that dealt with the Roman Catholic Church.

Your comment regarding the SOF is the same message that these agents are preaching -- that the church of Christ is just "another denomination." Strangely, why are they unwilling and unready to join any of these "other denominations"? And leave the church of Christ alone?

Yes, you are correct in that there is "no guarantee that the people inside are who they say they are." But that is common knowledge. There are "good" and "bad" people in every religious body, although being "good" or being "bad" does not determine one's salvation as there are good people who know nothing about God and His plan of salvation.

One thing for sure is that the SOF is a confession of where a professing Christian belongs to or is affiliated with. As already pointed out, that was not a problem in the first century. Churches in Galatia, Thessalonica, Ephesus and other regions in the early century were clearly congregations of the church of Christ -- and did not have to be identified as "of Christ."

But during our times, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" is a confession that the Mormons comprise that religious body. So, is "Seventh Day Adventist Church" or "Saddleback Community Church" or "Willow Creek Community Church."

Specifically, the Community Church Movement has deceived (or converted/transformed from) many denominational churches into their fold. Let's not forget that as much as the Community Church claims that it is non-denominational, the truth is that it is another denomination -- a collection of members from various religious groups in a community.

Trust me -- a few churches of Christ have been converted into the Community Church. One of the first and very significant signs is dropping the name "of Christ" from the SOF. Why do you think the change agent Max Lucado did to the Oak Hills Church [formerly "of Christ"]?

And the culprit is the introduction of the use of inanimate, lifeless, soulless musical instruments and accessories in the assembly of saints.

So, let's continue making that confession that the church that Christ established belongs to Him. He owns His own body, the church. Max Lucado, with his followers (elders of the congregation), does not own the church. Al Maxey, Jay Guin and other prominent change agents busily being destructive to the church of Christ Jesus do not own the church, either."

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
216.67.70.149

Re: SOF

March 4 2012, 4:22 PM 

And the culprit is the introduction of the use of inanimate, lifeless, soulless musical instruments and accessories in the assembly of saints.

Honest question: is this a cause or a symptom? Your thoughts, please?

 
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John watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)
72.66.36.40

Restoration alignment at Lipscomb

March 26 2012, 9:23 PM 

The current issue of Christian Chronicle has a front page article on declining numbers....if you follow the article to completion you will find Lipscomb students in search of a "relationship not religion". One will find "community church" "the unchurched" and "faith groups" mentioned in the article. This is most certainly the result of fuzzy convoluted thinking on the part of their instructors at Lipscomb. I think we should remember the comment in Leviticus 10 that God demands (must) be regarded as holy by those who come near him. This follows the Nadab and Abihu burning alive for profane fire. So now a school that should be a restoration leader tells students that relationship is what we want not religion. I think the Bible says you must have the religion part correct or you will never have a relationship with God. One must follow the letter of the law to show he/she has the spirit of the law. Is God holy - then follow him carefully and completely as specified in his word!

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.128.194

That's true maybe its luny U

March 26 2012, 10:02 PM 

The "sky is falling" people remind me of my wife's Jeep mechanic.

He said, "Lady, I broke your heater but I can fix it for $300.00"

It is a fact that when musical worship teams have been introduced up to 1/2 of the owners very quickly cast themselves out of their own synagogue. Those who have been so betrayed by elders may never enter a church again. And I think lots of people have caught on to the fact that musicians cannot REALLY lead you into the presence of God and also give up on the mess.

It may also be the fact that those being "saved" by being bewitched by love, sound and motion may discover that they have been deceived and move on: those churches don't count those who leave.

These people and the Lipscomb pattern sounds more like witchcraft which is certainly affirmed by the Bible and the classics.

But, maybe that is the way it is supposed to be: "Shall He find faith when He returns?" The answer, is almost none.

Many (most) are called or invited
But few (a puny number) are chosen which means "tested as by fire."


 
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B
(no login)
74.179.248.26

Re: Restoration alignment at Lipscomb

March 27 2012, 12:10 PM 

Speaking of "relationship over religion," on Facebook I recently noticed that one person described her "religious views" as follows: "I don't have a 'religion', I have a RELATIONSHIP=I'm the sinner, Jesus is the Savior ie RELATIONSHIP."

Well, we all know that we are sinners and that Jesus is the Savior, but does that in and of itself automatically guarantee that we really have a true "relationship" with Jesus? People may say, "I believe in Jesus, so I have a 'relationship' with Him." Satan also "believes" in Jesus, but Satan certainly has no "relationship" with Jesus.

The only way we can have a "relationship" with Jesus is to become one of His absolutely obedient children, to be "related" to Him in other words. If we don't observe all things whatsoever He has commanded us, if we bounce His commands around and tweak them to suit our own pleasures and desires, then we are NOT his children, we are NOT "related" to Him, and hence have NO "relationship" with Him whatsoever.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
174.237.36.33

Relationship as in KNOWING God.

March 27 2012, 1:11 PM 

The concept of "Spiritual formation" at LU clearly validates all recorded history that charismatic music (as opposed to teaching that which is written for our learning) is defined as Soothsaying (Levites), Sorcery (Revelation 18:23) and WITCHCRAFT in its various forms. The "faith only" dogma when challenged will call them into quite violent reaction. The purpose is to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter." All of these Sorcerers marked with Wind, String and Percussion instruments in Isaiah 30 are the MARKS of God driving His enemies into "hell"

http://www.piney.com/Isa30LXX.html

As long ago as 30 years Harold Hazelip said that the college could be more useful in training relationships through their athletics department. This says, in effect, that people looking at them can "want some of that" and be converted. The Worship Teams (a blasphemy) claim that watching them worship and imitating them will cause the "audience" to worship. Clearly, we are in the midst of a giant outbreak of demonism.

Unfortunately, the blind who follow them will fall into the ditch (pit, hell) because they have no spiritual nature. And, unfortunately for them the Scriptures defines salvation as becoming a DISCIPLE and a disciple is a student and the text is "that which is written for our learning." Only the Word of Christ is Spirit and Life and those who are led away by witchcraft in the pulpits and performing podiums will never be able to grasp that:

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is
.....Impossible to please him:
.....for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,
.....and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God;
.....lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you,
.....and thereby many be defiled;

Matthew 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests,
.....he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Matthew 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend,
.....how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?
.....And he was speechless.
Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants,
.....Bind him hand and foot, and take him away,
.....and cast him into outer darkness;
..... there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. [elected]

eklekt-o , elected
A. to be separated, i.e.purified, LXXIs.52.11.

Isa 52:10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm [jSeed] in the eyes of all the nations;
.....and all the ends of the earth shall
.....see the salvation [Jesus] of our God.

Isa 52:11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing;
.....go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean,
.....that bear the vessels of the Lord.

Isa 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord;
.....My spirit that is upon thee,
.....and my words which I have put in thy mouth,
.....shall not depart out of thy mouth,
.....nor out of the mouth of thy seed,
.....nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed,
.....saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

The WORD of Christ is SPIRIT and LIFE (John 6:63)

 
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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)
72.66.36.40

Re: Lipscomb and restoration alignment

March 27 2012, 8:27 PM 

Consider Titus 2 and what the grace of God teaches us to do. It does seem that Lipscomb is filling the heads of the young with swill and not the rich meat of the word. Sober righteous and godly is the proper orientation with an overall outlook for the return of Christ. One can predict that swill will not protect and defend against the wiles of the devil regarding drinking, gambling and sex. The young are not prepared to deal with sin while they are on a hunt for whatever it is they define as a non-traditional relationship. The mindset or disposition of these young people is a subversion and is not from the Holy Spirit of God.

On a related matter Lipscomb sends out a magazine for alumni - the winter 2012 issue shows a picture of Walter Brueggemann addressing a preaching workshop as a "noted biblical scholar..." . The wise should look him up on the internet and see where he is coming from and the books he has authored. In John 12 it tells us not to seek the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

In that same magazine a picture is shown of a devotional service on the Lipscomb campus in collins auditorium - with the lights out and everyone holding a lighted candle. So much for seeking "non tradition" - this is nothing but the tradition of mens churches adopted by those who are casting aside the truth. Willard Collins would never approve of this-

Comments welcome


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 174.252.180.231 on Mar 27, 2012 10:00 PM


 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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