Who is more aligned with Restoration Movement principles?
December 20 2011 at 8:30 AM
Ray (no login) from IP address 18.104.22.168
Who is more aligned with Restoration Movement principles? Madison CofC? Piney.com? ConcernedMembers.com?
From the writings of Alexander Campbell - The Christian Baptist, Volume VII, #11, June 7, 1830, pp. 650-656:
"WHAT means this intolerant spirit? I ask again, What is the meaning of it? Is every man who acknowledges in word and deed the supreme authority of Jesus of Nazareth as Lord Messiah--who has vowed allegiance to him--who is of good report as respects good works, to be sacrificed upon the altar of opinion--because his opinion upon some speculation, fact, or doctrine, differs from mine? Because, while he admits that Jesus died for our sins, he will not dogmatize upon the nature, extent and every attribute of "the atonement"--is he to be deemed unfit for the kingdom of heaven? Admitting "an election of favor," is he to be given over to Satan because of some opinion about the conditionality or unconditionality of that election?--In one word, are we to understand that an exact agreement in opinion, a perfect uniformity is contended for as a bond of union? If so, let our Baptist brethren say so. Let them declare to the world, that
"Tenth, or ten thousandth, breaks the chain alike."
That a disagreement in the tenth opinion, or in the ten thousandth opinion, breaks the bond of union. If this be the decree, let it be published and translated into all languages--let it be known and read by all men. If, again, a perfect uniformity be not decreed, but a partial uniformity, let it be proclaimed in how many opinions an agreement must be obtained; then we shall know who are, and who are not, to be treated as heathen men and publicans.
What makes divisions now? The man who sets up his private judgments as the standard of truth, and compels submission to them; or the man who will bear with a brother who thinks in some things differently from him?
No man can, with either reason or fact on his side, accuse me of making divisions among christians. I declare non-fellowship with no man who owns the Lord in word and deed. Such is a christian. He that denies the Lord in word or deed is not a christian. A Jew or a Gentile he may be, a Pharisee or a Sadducee he may be, but a Christian he cannot be! If a man confess the Lord Jesus, or acknowledge him as the only Saviour sent by God: if he vow allegiance to him, and submit to his government, I will recognize him as a christian and treat him as such. If a man cause divisions and offences by setting up his own decisions, his private judgment, we must consider him as a factionist, and as such he must be excluded--not for his difference in opinions, but because he makes his opinion an idol, and demands homage to it.
There are some preachers in the East and in the West--some self-conceited, opinionative dogmatizers, who are determined to rend...into fractions by their intolerance. They wish moreover to blame it upon us. As well might they blame the sun for its light and heat as blame us for creating divisions. When we shall have cut off from the church any person or persons because of a difference of opinion, then they may say, with reason, we cause divisions. Till then it is gratuitous. They are the heretics, not we. Yes, they are the heresiarchs, and will be so regarded by all the intelligent on earth, and by all in heaven."
In 1850 none of the religious group could even hallucinate the rational role of MACHINES for doing the hard work of WORSHIP, much less IMPOSING instruments knowing that they were the INTOLERANT ONES and inviting the owners who opposed to get over it or get out.
What intolerant Ray does not want you to know is the CONTEXT where the Campbells were never tolerated by the Anglical (Catholic) rooted Disciples of Christ. The NACC would not begin to be until 1927 and were INTOLERANT of the Disciples who finally De-censused them in 1971 at which time the NACC began its intolerant view against any church who would not USE nor quit teaching the truth.
A GENERAL conspiracy is forming among the "Orthodox Calvinistic Baptists" in Indiana, the object of which is to put a stop to the alarming spread of those principles contained in the Christian Baptist, and advocated by all who earnestly pray for a "restoration of the ancient order of things;" which they, however, have seen proper to honor with the name of "damnable heresies." I have had the honor of being ranked among the first victims of this conspiracy. I have been immolated on the altar of party prejudice and sectarian jealousy. I have passed through the furnace of clerical indignation, "heated seven times hotter than it was wont to be heated." But the smell of fire has not passed on my garments.--Clothed with the panoply of faith, with the volume of unerring wisdom in my hand, I would be ashamed to fear a host of sectarians who have no stronger armor, either offensive or defensive, than their creed.
Nearly four years ago I had the presumption to oppose the doctrine of creeds, &c., in a public assembly, for which I received repeated rebukes from the dominant clergy, who, however, made no attempt to oppugn the arguments I advanced in favor of my position. The three years immediately succeeding this, passed with my saying little or nothing on this or any other of the religious questions which, during that period, were agitated; my time being entirely engrossed by studies of a different nature.
After spending some time at Cincinnati, I returned to my former residence in Rush county, and being more at leisure I determined to give the scriptures a careful, and if possible, an impartial examination. I did so, without favor or affection to any party. The effect was a thorough conviction of the truth of the following propositions, viz.--
1. Faith is nothing more nor less than a conviction of the truth of any position from evidence.
2. That faith in Jesus Christ is nothing more than a belief of the facts recorded of him by the Evangelists, to-wit: that Jesus of Nazareth was the promised Messiah, and that he gave impregnable proof of his divine mission by his miraculous birth, by the numerous miracles which  he wrought while living, and by his death, resurrection, and ascension.
3. The evangelical writings, containing the facts relative to the mighty works which were done by Christ and his apostles, together with the corroborating testimony of the prophecies, form altogether a phalanx of evidence sufficient to convince any reasonable mind that "Jesus is the Christ."
4. I became convinced that the popular doctrine of a partial atonement, and unconditional election and reprobation, were alike anti-christian and unscriptural.
These opinions I at all times expressed freely, not a little to the annoyance of my Calvinistic friends. At length, after considerable threatening, the following resolution was adopted by the church on Clifty for my special benefit:--
"Resolved, That we will not fellowship the doctrines propagated by Alexander Campbell, of Bethany. Virginia."
Alexander Campbell DID NOT tolerate instruments and would not preach in a denominational church until the organ and organist was silent. The original intolerant who confiscated the New Bern church in Tennessee said that the organ was to AID the singing but if it were used FOR worship it would be a sin.
Your obsession with musical instruments has made you not only intolerant of any opinion other than your own, it has made you clueless and blind. The article by Alexander Campbell posted had nothing to do with intruments. It had to do with those who force their opinions on others, and pass judgement on others and cause divisions based on their opinions, which is exactly what you and this website do. You are so paranoid with your obsession that you see instruments where there are none, force your intolerance on others, see it in others where there is none, and sinfully divide from other believers based on your obsessed opinion. You are exactly the kind of person Alexander Campbell warned Christians about in the article I posted.
People lie, cheat and steal the church houses of widows
and then they mark you as crazy if you dare to question the house invaders: spiritual terrorists.
If you go to a candy store you will find that they are obsessed with candy.
If you go to piney.com you will find all of the key documents on instrumental (legal) religion from clay tablets to the latest church invaders.
You will find that all of it is linked and cross linked and you can test for yourself if you can find any instrumental music used in religion which is NOT the mark of them effeminate or worse. Amos and John calls the fruits, sorcerers, to be cast alive into the lake of fire.
Then you can find that your dominant priest collects YOUR money without authority PLANNING to divert it into his / her favorite obsession with singing boys and girls. If they will deliberate mind-control the youth (brain not even formed) to LEAVE OUR MOVEMENT then you cannot find any better manifestation of evil.
And Ray HOPES that those warning against the banditos can be branded as crazy or senile. That is part of the marks of the crooked race were are to save OURSELVES from.
It is a falsehood to TRY to say that what John Calvin launched as the Restoration of the Church of Christ ever had any more relationship to the Anglical (Catholic) based Disciples than to any other group they attempted to call back to pealing off all of their clergy and creeds which STOPPED local groups from coming together to
READ and MEDITATE on the Word of God.
The "scholars" are misleaders: Alexander campbell never did or intended to be united with any denomination organization: he said that there were undoubtedly baptized believers (Christians) in all of the Sects: if so, they should "come out of Babylon."
As long as they lie TO God and ABOUT God when they think they have found a jot or tittle which does not REPUDIATE using machines as ignorant superstition. Alll instrumental performance is UNIVERSALLY identified with lost or fearful people trying to SEDUCE or APPEASE their image of god.
We will not hearken to those questions which gender strife, nor discuss them at all. If a person says such is his private opinion, let him have it as his private opinion; but lay no stress upon it; and if it be a wrong private opinion, it will die a natural death much sooner than if you attempt to kill it. Alexander Campbell
I have tried the pharisaic plan, and the monastic. I was once so straight, that, like the Indians tree, I leaned a little the other way. And however much I may be slandered now as seeking popularity or a popular course, I have to rejoice that to my own satisfaction, as well as to others, I proved that truth, and not popularity, was my object; for I was once so strict a Separatist that I would neither pray nor sing praises with any one who was not as perfect as I supposed myself. In this most unpopular course I persisted until I discovered the mistake, and saw that on the principle embraced in my conduct, there never could be a congregation or church upon the earth. Alexander Campbell
Music, says Donnie, HAS ALWAYS gendered strife by the gender-bled (Plato)
December 20 2011, 12:53 PM
"In Gnostic circles religious poetry arose to compete with the Old Testament Psalms. Some Catholics therefore distrusted the composition of hymns after this pattern, on the ground that they might smack of heresy. Yet from at least the second century hymns were written by the orthodox which, like their Gnostic counterparts,
employed the forms of Greek poetry...
Until near the end of the fourth century, in the services of the Catholic Church
only the Old Testament Psalms and
the hymns or canticles from the New Testament were sung:
the other hymns were for personal family, or private use.
Gradually there were prepared versical paraphrases of the Psalms, hymns
with lines of equal length, and hymns which were acrostic." (Latourette, Christianity. p. 207).
To Ephraim (c. 373) pertains the high and unique distinction of having originated-or at least given its living impulse to-a new departure in sacred literature; and that, not for his own country merely, but for Christendom.
From him came, if not the first idea, at all events the first successful example,
of making song an essential constituent of public worship,
and an exponent of theological teaching;
and from him it spread and prevailed through the Eastern Churches, and affected even those of the West.
To the Hymns, on which chiefly his fame rests, the Syriac ritual in all its forms owes much of its strength and richness; and to them is largely due the place which Hymnody holds throughout the Church everywhere.
Sow them TARES boys, sow them TARES: they make you drunk without wine and blind so you cannot read black text on brown paper.
Ken said "Instrumentalists IMPOSED into peaceable Disciples churches and were therefore INTOLERANT of those who rested their hostile takeover. Non-instrumental churches allow everyone to attend: Instrumentalists deliberately EXCLUDE those who know that instruments were never INCLUDED for any ocngregational assembly."
Ken, what you said there is simply not true....and if any of the readers have kept up with your useless diatribe they might even call it a lie.
Those who have chosen to worship with instruments or the use of praise teams almost always opt for a different time slot. I have visited Christian churches and know that they do NOT deliberately exclude anyone.
It has nothing to do with a hostile takeover. I used to think that maybe it was senility with you Ken, but it isn't. You KNOW better, but have decided to behave accordingly.
Well, we discipled the children of those progressive churches
for a whole generation to grow past us Boomers.
They never heard the sermons we heard.
They never heard the rationale for a cappella music.
We sent them to youth rallies and Church of Christ events
with some of the finest Christian bands in the world.
We discipled our children to leave our Movement!
Any time anyone IMPOSES instruments they know that they will EXCLUDE those who will not participate in the idolatry of talent.
They EXCLUDE the ex-owners from questioning the "leaders" or speaking against them hostile takeover.
If you throw a skunk into a widow's living room you PLAN to EXCLUDE the widows.
Babblers babble meaning a "praise team" trying to seduce a god
December 22 2011, 8:54 PM
"THOUGH I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 1 Cor 13:1
Chalkos (g5475) khal-kos'; perh. from 5465 through the idea of hollowing out as a vessel (this metal being chiefly used for that purpose); copper (the substance, or some implement or coin made of it): - brass, money.
Chaldaios (g5466) khal-dah'-yos; prob. of Heb. or. ; a Chaldoean (i.e. Kasdi), or native or the region of the lower Euphrates: - Chaldaean.
Kasdiy (h3778) kas-dee' (occasionally with enclitic kasdymah, kas-dee'-maw; towards the Kasdites: -into Chaldea), patron. from 3777 (only in the plur.); a Kasdite, or desc. of Kesed; by impl. a Chaldoean (as if so descended); also an astrologer (as if proverbial of that people: - Chaldeans, Chaldees, inhabitants of Chaldea
When you write your own "scriptures" in song and sermon you INTEND to make the lambs dumb fefore the slaughter." Why else would advanced "scholars" promote instrumental music even when it sows discord and proves HATRED for the captives and God and His Word.
Dodona: ancient sanctuary of the chief Greek god, Zeus, in Epirus, Greece; the ceremonies held there had many remarkable and abnormal features. The earliest mention of it is in the Iliad (xvi, 234), where its priests are called the Selloi (or Helloi) and are described as "of unwashen feet, sleeping on the ground." The description suggests worshipers or servants of an earth goddess or of some chthonian power with whom they kept in continual contact, day and night. Homer (Odyssey, xiv, 327) was also the first to mention the oracle at Dodona.
REPUDIATING ALL OF THE LEGALISTIC PATTERNISM OF THE INSTRUMENTAL SECTARIANS.
Isaiah 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death (Amos), and with HELL are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
A tree (or trees) was reputed to give oracles, presumably through the rustling of its leaves and other sounds. Herodotus, but no earlier writer, mentions priestesses, whom he describes as the givers of the oracles, doubtless under some kind of inspiration from the god.
A further peculiarity of Dodona was the "bronze," a large GONG set vibrating at every breeze by a scourge held in the hand of a figure standing over it;
the persistent ringing passed into a Greek proverbial phrase--Khalkos Dodones ("Brass of Dodona")-- for a continuous talker who has NOTHING to say. Britannica Members
"A famous oracle in Epi'ros, and the most ancient of Greece. It was dedicated to Zeus (Jupiter), and situate in the village of Dodna.
The tale is, that Jupiter presented his daughter Theb with two black pigeons which had the gift of human speech. Lemprière tells us that the Greek word peleiai (pigeons) means, in the dialect of the Eprots, old women; so that the two black doves with human voice were two black or African women. One went to Libya, in Africa, and founded the oracle of Jupiter Ammon; the other went to Eprus and founded the oracle of Dodna. We are also told that plates of brass were suspended on the oak trees of Dodona, which being struck by thongs when the wind blew, gave various sounds from which the responses were concocted. It appears that this suggested to the Greeks the phrase Kalkos Dod ns (brass of Dodona), meaning a babbler, or one who talks an infinite deal of nothing. Bartleby
That would suggest that ANY Disciple of Christ would ask about the "spirit" descending like a DOVE and identifying the FATHER of a SON instead of the MOTHER of a DAUGHTER.
Re: Who is more aligned with Restoration Movement principles?
January 16 2012, 12:57 AM
"Who is more aligned with Restoration Movement principles"?
Great question, Ray.
But the problem with your choices is that it is:
(a) The Madison congregation
----------------- VERSUS -----------------
(b) The website (ConcernedMembers.com/Piney.com)
I'll make the correction for you quickly. Here are the more valid and logical distinctions or contrasting elements:
Piney.com >->->->->-> Strong supporter of the Restoration Movement and its principles -- the New Testament as the only rule of faith and practice; denunciation of denominationalism, creeds and human authority; replete with with well-researched data, references, links to resources that pertain to biblical accounts of music, music and dancing, musical idolatry as proven by historical accounts. Exposes the denominational doctrines and polluted teachings of the anti-church of Christ change agents of our day -- Jay Guin, Max Lucado, Rick Atchley, Rubel Shelly, et al.
------------------ vs. -----------------
BandofChangeAgents.com >->->->->-> Liberals and progressives attempting to rewrite/revise the Restoration Movement history; to transform the church of Christ into a denomination; to improve upon the simple teachings found in the NEW Testament; to embrace [instead of denounce] denominationalism; to compromise the truth to gain acceptance into denominational churches; etc.
What about ConcernedMembers.com? No, I have not forgotten. Simply substitute "ConcernedMembers.com" for "Piney.com" -- it supports the Restoration Movement and the church of Christ just the same. The only difference is that CM is a religious discussion forum. Both will defend RM and the New Testament church of Jesus Christ against the discordant change agents operating in the brotherhood, against the liberals and progressives who, at the end of it all, are anti-church of Christ.
Re: Who is more aligned with Restoration Movement principles?
January 16 2012, 1:28 PM
ALL OF THE ANTI-church of Christ blobs are dedicated to endorsing musical instruments as approved by God AND using all of the RACA words on those who use Scripture to refute them. Even so-called Conservatives follow the attack: blame the INVADED for resisting having their church family destroyed. That is the oldest Guilt Clause known. Furthermore, there is no ROLE and no DOLE for any kind of entertainment Self-speak sermons.
Ezek. 33:31 And they come unto thee AS the people
and they sit
before thee AS my people, and they hear thy words, but they will
not do them:
for with their mouth they shew much love,
but their heart goeth
after their covetousness.
1Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity,
Ezekiel 33:32NIV Indeed, to them you are NOTHING MORE
I am become
than one who sings love songs with a beautiful voice and plays an instrument well, for they hear your words but do not put them into practice.
as soundingBRASS, or a tinklingCYMBAL.
Ezek. 33:31 And they come unto thee AS the people
cometh, and they sit
before thee AS my people, and they hear thy words, but they will
them: for with their mouth they shew muchlove,
but their heart goeth
after their covetousness.
1Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries,
and all knowledge; and though I have all faith,
so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity
Ezekiel 33:32NIV Indeed, to them you
are NOTHING MORE
NOW YOU KNOW why no one of the scholarly or preacher level knows or cares about the prophets by CHRIST which always REPUDIATE whatever is done by the Civil-Military-Clergy complex. You don't know a pseudo conservative who will NOT hurt you for denying that God commanded congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment under the OLD LAW. That proves that they see godliness as a means of financial gain (occupation) and are not students and do not want anyone from the pews to get uppity.
I know of those who have been complicit in the current and previous falling away who view their calling as a career and not a solemn trust as in Titus and TImothy. Some have used tactics learned in secular organizations which amount to "how to get my way" by cruel and harsh words. They would do well to remember the statement in the Bible that God will judge every idle word.
I also know of those who have not bowed to any idol or wind of doctrine over the last 50 years. I remember them often to encourage and edify myself and others.
Yours is an illogical comparison. It appears that you're in doubt that the church that Christ established belongs to Him.
It should be loyalty to: (a) Christ, the founder of His church, VERSUS (b) any of the men/women founders of their respective churches.
It should be loyalty to: (a) the church that Christ built VERSUS (b) any of the denominational bodies founded by man/woman.
This is the fallacy that the change agents embrace, a departure from the New Testament teachings concerning the church of our Lord Jesus Christ and from the Restoration Movement principles. The change agents are busy rewriting the RM history and promoting the concept that the church of Christ is just "another denomination."
I would say that I am a Christian. I know my Bible well enough to know that's never going to change. I'm not so sure I want to be identified as a member/participant of the restorationist group that calls itself the Church of Christ. If that makes me a change agent, I apologize. I'm just tired of fighting the same battles over and over.
If a person is truly loyal to Christ, then s/he will be a member of the Church that Christ founded, which is the Church of Christ. S/he will not be a member of the Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, or any of the scores of other denominations, because Christ never founded them. Not one of those denominations is mentioned in the New Testament, because they are man-made. The New Testament mentions those congregations that are loyal to Christ, which are the churches of Christ. Observe:
The churches of Christ salute you (Romans 16:16b KJV).
Notice that the New Testament does NOT say, "The Baptist churches salute you," or "The Roman Catholic churches salute you," or "The Presbyterian churches salute you," etc. etc. blah blah. Those who are truly loyal to Christ comprise the Church of Christ. The individually loyal congregations are the churches of Christ.
The denominations cannot be members of the Church of Christ, because they are NOT completely loyal to Christ's teachings. Some denominations allow female officers in the Church; others dismiss baptism as essential for salvation; most denominations have instrumental music; some allow divorce and remarriage for any reason, as long as the two parties are "in love," because (so they reason) God would not want people to be unhappy; some also allow homosexual officers in the Church; some condone rattling off prefabricated, professionally written prayers over and over, which are forms of vain repetition; many observe "special holy days" (which the New Testament does not confirm) in addition to the first day of the week; many subscribe to "God didn't say not to," when nothing of the sort is recorded in the New Testament. The list could go on and on.
Please read the message I posted earlier (Feb. 29) as it may illustrate my point regarding simple grammatical rules that we already know about. The word "church" is an improper noun, as improper as the word "nose" or "body" or "foot." When used in a sentence, an improper noun may not be capitalized. A good example of it is: "The churches of Christ salute you" (Rom. 16:16). In fact, the word "church" or "churches" occurs 114 times in the New Testament (KJV). None of either word is capitalized.
An improper noun is capitalized when it begins a sentence. It may be capitalized in the title of an article, a book, etc.
I'm bringing this up in that such simple grammatical rules assist me personally in thinking and believing that the church of Christ Jesus or the church of God or the Lord's church or Christ's church or God's church is NOT A DENOMINATION.
The apostle Paul wrote letters to "the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thess. 1:1) ... "unto the churches of Galatia" (Gal. 1:2); etc.
There's no question that in the first century these were congregations of the church that belongs to Christ or God or the Lord.
There's no question that in the first century these were congregations of the church that belongs to Christ or God or the Lord
Donnie, no argument here. However, I am not so convinced that the Church of Christ, despite the good intentions of the founders and the membership, is the same as the churches of Christ found in the New Testament.What I do know for certain is that the New Testament churches didn't grow their memberships by verbally beating up their converts. For the most part,it was done by loving persuasion despite the hard truths they were given to teach.
It's good that your post has reminded me to clarify myself further -- that there is only one church established by Christ but that the word "churches" is in reference to the various congregations (in Thessalonica, Ephesus, Rome, Corinth, and other regions) of the church in that era.
In addition, the word "churches" does not refer to "denominational groups," either. There were no Catholic and Protestant denominations at the time, and so it was clearly understood that the church belonged to its only founder, Christ. (Considering our confusing times now, it is no longer practical to identify the church as belonging to Christ in a locality by purposely removing or dropping the name "of Christ" as its founder.)
I gather from your post, however, that you're in agreement with the change agents' proclamation that the RM leaders founded the "Church of Christ" -- which to them [and to you] is just "another denomination." If that's the case, such mindset is absolutely repulsive as it would lead us to conclude that it really does not matter which denomination we prefer and become members of.
(Let's not get "reformation" and "restoration" confused.)
But I've got news -- if the RM leaders were alive today, they would be the first ones to reject that designation of being "founders" of a denomination while they would be denouncing denominationalism.
I can't think of a New Testament church today that grows it membership by verbally beating up its members. Perhaps, you need to explain what you meant by that statement.
Hopefully, you didn't take it personally at all. It was not my intent to be insulting. Sorry about that.
Rather, the objective of my message was to illustrate a very significant point that the Christian, a truly converted individual who is now and still a member of the body of Christ, should have the honest conviction to know and believe and to teach others that the church that Christ established is NOT a religious denomination.
My constant awareness of the grammatical structure of the expression "the church of Christ" or "the church of our Lord" or "the body of Christ" (i.e., the word "church" being a common or an improper noun and is not capitalized), has ingrained in me the truth that the body of Christ can never be classified as a religious denomination.
One is either a member of the body of Christ or he is not. The Scripture teaches: (1) that God's grace [and that is God's part and is not to be minimized or maximized or altered by man] has been offered to all; and (2) that man opts to accept or to reject God's offer of free redemption in the blood of Christ the Redeemer.
The gospel of Christ is God's power unto man's redemption (Romans 1:16) and it is to be obeyed (II Thess. 1:8). It is obeyed when one outside of Christ believes, repents and is baptized in order for his sins to be remitted (Acts 2:38). This new birth experience adds him to the church and wears the name of Christ (he is a "CHRIST-ian").
What's denominational about one going through that conversion process: ... clearly when one is buried with Christ in baptism and is risen (resurrected) with Christ -- cleansed; redeemed; refreshed or receiving a pure, holy spirit or a clear conscience; the burden of sin removed -- to BEGIN newness of life?
Christ never addressed the SOF, because there was no need at the time: the first-century believers and followers of Christ WERE Christians. They were NOT Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Catholics, etc. etc. blah blah. Today, it seems that the SOF is actually necessary to identify those who ARE Christians vs. those who IMAGINE themselves to be Christians but are sadly mistaken. Discerning folks will really know the difference.
I could be wrong, but I feel that you are of those with a confused identity regarding the church of Christ of which you are a member. If you are not, let me state in advance that I am sorry.
But my point is that there is quite a bit to know about what the change agents in the brotherhood are doing that, perhaps unbeknownst to them, are demeaning to and undermining the church that Christ established. They are attempting to rewrite the history of the Restoration Movement and go so far as to state that the RM leaders are the founders of the denomination "Church of Christ." That was never the intent of the Movement, which has to be differentiated and distinguished from the Reformation Movement that dealt with the Roman Catholic Church.
Your comment regarding the SOF is the same message that these agents are preaching -- that the church of Christ is just "another denomination." Strangely, why are they unwilling and unready to join any of these "other denominations"? And leave the church of Christ alone?
Yes, you are correct in that there is "no guarantee that the people inside are who they say they are." But that is common knowledge. There are "good" and "bad" people in every religious body, although being "good" or being "bad" does not determine one's salvation as there are good people who know nothing about God and His plan of salvation.
One thing for sure is that the SOF is a confession of where a professing Christian belongs to or is affiliated with. As already pointed out, that was not a problem in the first century. Churches in Galatia, Thessalonica, Ephesus and other regions in the early century were clearly congregations of the church of Christ -- and did not have to be identified as "of Christ."
But during our times, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" is a confession that the Mormons comprise that religious body. So, is "Seventh Day Adventist Church" or "Saddleback Community Church" or "Willow Creek Community Church."
Specifically, the Community Church Movement has deceived (or converted/transformed from) many denominational churches into their fold. Let's not forget that as much as the Community Church claims that it is non-denominational, the truth is that it is another denomination -- a collection of members from various religious groups in a community.
Trust me -- a few churches of Christ have been converted into the Community Church. One of the first and very significant signs is dropping the name "of Christ" from the SOF. Why do you think the change agent Max Lucado did to the Oak Hills Church [formerly "of Christ"]?
And the culprit is the introduction of the use of inanimate, lifeless, soulless musical instruments and accessories in the assembly of saints.
So, let's continue making that confession that the church that Christ established belongs to Him. He owns His own body, the church. Max Lucado, with his followers (elders of the congregation), does not own the church. Al Maxey, Jay Guin and other prominent change agents busily being destructive to the church of Christ Jesus do not own the church, either."
The current issue of Christian Chronicle has a front page article on declining numbers....if you follow the article to completion you will find Lipscomb students in search of a "relationship not religion". One will find "community church" "the unchurched" and "faith groups" mentioned in the article. This is most certainly the result of fuzzy convoluted thinking on the part of their instructors at Lipscomb. I think we should remember the comment in Leviticus 10 that God demands (must) be regarded as holy by those who come near him. This follows the Nadab and Abihu burning alive for profane fire. So now a school that should be a restoration leader tells students that relationship is what we want not religion. I think the Bible says you must have the religion part correct or you will never have a relationship with God. One must follow the letter of the law to show he/she has the spirit of the law. Is God holy - then follow him carefully and completely as specified in his word!
The "sky is falling" people remind me of my wife's Jeep mechanic.
He said, "Lady, I broke your heater but I can fix it for $300.00"
It is a fact that when musical worship teams have been introduced up to 1/2 of the owners very quickly cast themselves out of their own synagogue. Those who have been so betrayed by elders may never enter a church again. And I think lots of people have caught on to the fact that musicians cannot REALLY lead you into the presence of God and also give up on the mess.
It may also be the fact that those being "saved" by being bewitched by love, sound and motion may discover that they have been deceived and move on: those churches don't count those who leave.
These people and the Lipscomb pattern sounds more like witchcraft which is certainly affirmed by the Bible and the classics.
But, maybe that is the way it is supposed to be: "Shall He find faith when He returns?" The answer, is almost none.
Many (most) are called or invited
But few (a puny number) are chosen which means "tested as by fire."
Speaking of "relationship over religion," on Facebook I recently noticed that one person described her "religious views" as follows: "I don't have a 'religion', I have a RELATIONSHIP=I'm the sinner, Jesus is the Savior ie RELATIONSHIP."
Well, we all know that we are sinners and that Jesus is the Savior, but does that in and of itself automatically guarantee that we really have a true "relationship" with Jesus? People may say, "I believe in Jesus, so I have a 'relationship' with Him." Satan also "believes" in Jesus, but Satan certainly has no "relationship" with Jesus.
The only way we can have a "relationship" with Jesus is to become one of His absolutely obedient children, to be "related" to Him in other words. If we don't observe all things whatsoever He has commanded us, if we bounce His commands around and tweak them to suit our own pleasures and desires, then we are NOT his children, we are NOT "related" to Him, and hence have NO "relationship" with Him whatsoever.
The concept of "Spiritual formation" at LU clearly validates all recorded history that charismatic music (as opposed to teaching that which is written for our learning) is defined as Soothsaying (Levites), Sorcery (Revelation 18:23) and WITCHCRAFT in its various forms. The "faith only" dogma when challenged will call them into quite violent reaction. The purpose is to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter." All of these Sorcerers marked with Wind, String and Percussion instruments in Isaiah 30 are the MARKS of God driving His enemies into "hell"
As long ago as 30 years Harold Hazelip said that the college could be more useful in training relationships through their athletics department. This says, in effect, that people looking at them can "want some of that" and be converted. The Worship Teams (a blasphemy) claim that watching them worship and imitating them will cause the "audience" to worship. Clearly, we are in the midst of a giant outbreak of demonism.
Unfortunately, the blind who follow them will fall into the ditch (pit, hell) because they have no spiritual nature. And, unfortunately for them the Scriptures defines salvation as becoming a DISCIPLE and a disciple is a student and the text is "that which is written for our learning." Only the Word of Christ is Spirit and Life and those who are led away by witchcraft in the pulpits and performing podiums will never be able to grasp that:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is
.....Impossible to please him:
.....for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,
.....and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; .....lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you,
.....and thereby many be defiled;
Matthew 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests,
.....he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Matthew 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend,
.....how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?
.....And he was speechless.
Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants,
.....Bind him hand and foot, and take him away,
.....and cast him into outer darkness;
..... there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. [elected]
eklekt-o , elected
A. to be separated, i.e.purified, LXXIs.52.11.
Isa 52:10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm [jSeed] in the eyes of all the nations;
.....and all the ends of the earth shall
.....see the salvation [Jesus] of our God.
Isa 52:11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing;
.....go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean,
.....that bear the vessels of the Lord.
Isa 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord;
.....My spirit that is upon thee,
.....and my words which I have put in thy mouth,
.....shall not depart out of thy mouth,
.....nor out of the mouth of thy seed,
.....nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed,
.....saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.
Consider Titus 2 and what the grace of God teaches us to do. It does seem that Lipscomb is filling the heads of the young with swill and not the rich meat of the word. Sober righteous and godly is the proper orientation with an overall outlook for the return of Christ. One can predict that swill will not protect and defend against the wiles of the devil regarding drinking, gambling and sex. The young are not prepared to deal with sin while they are on a hunt for whatever it is they define as a non-traditional relationship. The mindset or disposition of these young people is a subversion and is not from the Holy Spirit of God.
On a related matter Lipscomb sends out a magazine for alumni - the winter 2012 issue shows a picture of Walter Brueggemann addressing a preaching workshop as a "noted biblical scholar..." . The wise should look him up on the internet and see where he is coming from and the books he has authored. In John 12 it tells us not to seek the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
In that same magazine a picture is shown of a devotional service on the Lipscomb campus in collins auditorium - with the lights out and everyone holding a lighted candle. So much for seeking "non tradition" - this is nothing but the tradition of mens churches adopted by those who are casting aside the truth. Willard Collins would never approve of this-
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 22.214.171.124 on Mar 27, 2012 10:00 PM
You have to grasp that there are no Bible students at Lipscomb: the Staff Infection uses their nose effectively in getting "best seller writers" to visit and perhaps endorse their book and invite them to their "workshops of evil."
Walter Brueggemann wrote their PATTERN for worship: I have a coppy but haven't had time to review it but I will get busy. Books have a bad habit of hiding on my desk or book shelves or the floor (where books belong).
Walter is just as Biblically illiterate as the rest of the "scholars" at LU. They simply teach the dry skin of the Bible to fleece the simple but they MAKE UP what they really promote out of their own imagination.
"This conference proposes that WE
allow the worldsimagined in the essentialbiblical narratives to dramaticallyshape our preachingand lives. Webelieve that preaching REconstitutes
biblical paradigms when it engages Scripturesvision
by REpresenting what
making present what
the end that followers of God will live into a God-shaped
This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!
What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?
There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.
This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison
Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource
references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least
you will recognize the signs early on.
Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't
know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.
Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was
one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.
It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of
it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word
of Jesus Christ.
At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority
of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly
They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and
to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.
The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan.
Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books,
seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change
so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....
At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to
be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched
through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the
"Community Church Movement"
Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready,
or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the
plans very nature, it had to be secret.
The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was
never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last
15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.
The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the
elders went along unwittingly.
This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell
something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill
in some of the timeline.
To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the
background materials in the first of the book.
This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be
printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our
web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison
Here is the list of players;
5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)