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December 25th and Pattern Theology and Doctrine

December 26 2011, 9:33 PM 

Brother Crump,

I was out of town visiting a family congregation yesterday for both services and in each the anniversaries for four or five couples were mentioned for celebration, including for two elders marriages. Birthdays were also recognized. This church prided itself yesterday on not celebrating Christmas as it was a manmade holiday. I thought of how they were all still sinning in your view for announcing and honoring anniversaries and birthdays. In your view, was I sinning to be in attendance? Should I have stayed home or gone to another acapella congregation? Also, I do not know, but what if every Church of Christ in the city and county included these? Also, if another church does not recognize these in the assemblies but does use a piano, is there a difference in your view?

By the way, according to the New Testament "pattern," should the contribution be collected directly after the communion, or should a song be sung between communion and contribution? This church includes a song, whereas, my home congregation does not. Which is unscriptural? Please site book, chapter and verse.

I look for Brother Crump to dodge some of these questions or be saracastic as his pattern theology cannot be consistent on these matters and keep even a few Churches of Christ as sound and saved.

Finally, is Brother Cruz sinning for continuing to worship at Madison where they celebrate anniversaries and even worship with praise teams?


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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

None of the above

December 26 2011, 10:06 PM 

By the way, according to the New Testament "pattern," should the contribution be collected directly after the communion, or should a song be sung between communion and contribution? This church includes a song, whereas, my home congregation does not. Which is unscriptural? Please site book, chapter and verse.

Sonny, you are far from the kingdom: the kingdom of God does NOT come with religious observations. The Kingdom of God is within you. That is why the CORE of the church from the wilderness onward is to "Teach that which is written for our learning."

There is no command to lay by in store as an act of worship. If people decided to collect money to keep the heat going during the winter then God sent our spirit to make certain that the body prepared for it does not think wacky thoughts.

The fact is--for readers--that instruments ARE MARKED from the "singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden" to the "Mother of harlots who uses lusted after fruits as self-speakers, singers and instrument players." The Serpent was a Musical Enchanter (ess): the Serpent or OPHIS is the same: both are called SORCERERS. All Greek literature identifies the PURPOSE of religious music as WITCHCRAFT: altering the minds of people so that they cannot think rationally.

MARK: if you think that music is WORSHIP then you do not and cannot understand that the godly civillians were NEVER gathered in a religious sense except to Read the Word in the Holy Convocation.

[linked image]

Because people met in synagogues or HOUSES and they sat on pews and they warmed themselves by the fire we know that none of these HINDER the core purpose to PREACH the Word by READING the Word. We have lots of examples.

Because there is no command, example or remote inference that any godly people ever assembled to engage in congregational singing WITH instrumental accompaniment, the INSTRUMENT thing has to be HALLUCINATED or borrowed from pagan cults says the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Therefore, we think that people who support a place out of the rain or snow are RATIONAL or SPIRITUAL people and teaching cannot really take place in a snow storm, GRASP that the command was to "Teach what He commanded to be taught."

We are dogmatic in saying that people who can associate instruments or a merry band of musicians deluding the people who BOUTHT that property and confiscating it, are OF SATAN: Recorded history has NO OTHER tradition but that SATAN introduced instruments to deceive the people other than JUBAL but Jubal handled instruments meaning 'Without Authority.'

The more people twist and turn the more certain that they are the VIPERS doomed to receive the baptism of fire.

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(no login)

The Mark...

December 26 2011, 3:25 PM 

"A mature DISCIPLE does not ask whether that EXCLUDES what Jesus DID NOT commant to be taught."

A mature DISCIPLE does not think or believe that anything other than the Word of God is needed. For example, Greek Mythology, Dicha, man's history, or ANYTHING other than the 66 books which God has given us is not needed. SOME men believe that God didn't direct men to compile these 66 books, so therefore they can add anything else, such as Enoch or any other works, that are NOT a part of His Word.

Oh, and Ken, if you weren't in such a hurry to slander others, you would notice that it should be command instead of "commant."

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Pick and Choose

December 26 2011, 6:30 PM 

Dave, I think I now understand where the phrase of beating a dead horse applies. I heard once that one could use the bible to prove anything one wanted. For instance, there is no God (Ps. 14:1). It's there. Also, sing and medlody in your heart (during worship service). Oops, I added a little there but no need to get technical. My point is to read the entire text and discern logically what it says.
The few that are still here may have noticed I have posted a little more often as the entertainment factor has become stale since the doctor exited. However, B seems to be a pretty good understudy. Of course Ken is still the king of cut and paste and most of it I still just scan. I just chalk it up to a bitter old man that did not get his way in Seattle or Hohenwald. Donnie is still MIA from the Madison late service critic's pew. On an unsarcastic note, Donnie I hope you have found an acceptable service where you can spend the time worshipping without having to critique anything.
I assume the moderators have labeled me a liberal like Dave and a few others that at one time posted here but have moved on but I'm just an old man that over the years has become more open minded and open hearted. But if the time ever comes that I do have all the answers this web site will be the first to know.

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(no login)

B Didn't Say To....

December 26 2011, 8:05 PM 

How can someone (B), using sane logic, believe that using a piano to aid the voice would have ANY relation to an employee shipping out twenty boxes when the order is for 10? Relating these two proves a point that people will argue a point no matter what. Jesus, being God and knowing all things, knew that his heir, King David, also used instrumental music to Glorify God. If Jesus believed this to be controversial, or that instrumental music was inappropriate to accompany the voice, Jesus would have set it straight. Did Jesus mention that David's playing to accompany the singing was sinful? I will let B answer that. Oh, and if you need further study for your going up and beyond the original order of 10 boxes....try the parable of the talents. If a man has talents that he isn't using, or simply isn't trying to multiply those talents to the Glory of God, then what he has will be taken away.

Again, we see clearly here that B isn't look for the Truth but for to push his own preference of a capella music.

Oh, and B, you can IMPLY that I have IMPLIED that "God didn't say not to," but I have never said or implied it.

Oh, B, please tell William Crump that I said hello, ok?

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Re: B Didn't Say To....

December 27 2011, 12:55 AM 

I didn't expect Dave to understand the logic anyway. But just for his benefit, I'll reword it so that even he should be able to understand it (but I doubt that).

Suppose the boss tells his employees to ship blue paint to customers. Some rebellious employees think that blue paint alone is boring, so they exceed the boss's authority and ship not only blue paint but red paint as well. When the boss finds out, the rebels say to him, "You said to ship blue paint, but you didn't say not to ship red paint." The rebels were fired, because they exceeded the boss's directive, because they ADDED a different kind of paint than what the boss had specified.

In this analogy, God (the boss) tells Christians (the employees) to use vocal music (the blue paint). The liberals (the rebels) think that vocal music alone is boring, so they exceed God's authority and ADD instrumental music (the red paint). When called to task, the rebels say, "God said to use vocal music, but He didn't say not to use instrumental music." The rebels sinned (are fired), because they exceeded God's directive, because they ADDED a different kind of music than what God specified.

For faithful believers, no further explanation is necessary; for the rebellious, no further explanation is possible.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Good example!

December 27 2011, 3:35 PM 

B "For faithful believers, no further explanation is necessary; for the rebellious, no further explanation is possible."

That sums it up: a person OF FAITH or OF TRUTH would not even think about rebuking a human who gave them orders to do something. Those who look for LOOPHOLES are legalists getting a Phd in "How to Do End-Runs around the stated Will of God."

Like I say, there is no command, example or remote inference that God ever commanded or that the people meet at the synagogue to do congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment."

The periodic PROOF EXAMPLES (2 Chron 29) might be removed by almost 300 years from the last example of David's Plague Stopping Sacrifice at which he did not use instruments. These people had been ABANDONED to what amounts to Devil worship.

Since there is no remote wisp of a shadow that God APPROVES of instruments the only other source for lying in order to impose it upon duped masses is from the Devil. All of those who impose instruments most often collect money for the "lord" and when they feel secure spring their hidden agenda to turn the church over to those who were born with the defect of lying about all of the Bible trying to force others to IMPOSE instruments as a CONDITION of their fellowshiping them.

Speaking of the music condemned by Amos in chapters 5, 6 and 8. We note that:

"The marzeah had an extremely long history extending at least from the 14th century B.C. through the Roman period. In the 14th century B.C., it was prominently associated with the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit (modern Ras Shamra), on the coast of Syria... The marzeah was a pagan ritual that took the form of a social and religious association... Some scholars regard the funerary marzeah as a feast for--and with--deceased ancestors (or Rephaim, a proper name in the Bible for the inhabitants of Sheol)." (King, Biblical Archaeological Review, Aug, 1988, p. 35, 35)

"These five elements are: (1) reclining or relaxing, (2) eating a meat meal, (3) singing with harp or other musical accompaniment, (4) drinking wine and (5) anointing oneself with oil." (King, p. 37).

"With the wine-drinking (which is the literal meaning of the Hebrew for feasting), went music and dancing." (Heaton, E. W., Everyday Life in Old Testament

"Worship was form more than substance; consequently, conduct in the marketplace was totally unaffected by worship in the holy place. Amos spoke from the conviction that social justice is an integral part of the Mosaic covenant, which regulates relations not only between God and people, but also among people." (King, p. 44).

"In pagan traditions, musical instruments are invented by gods or demi-gods, such as titans. In the Bible, credit is assigned to antediluvian patriarchs, for example, the descendants of Cain in Genesis 4:21. There is no other biblical tradition about the invention of musical instruments." (Freedman, David Noel, Bible Review, Summer 1985, p. 51).

And Jubal HANDLED instruments WITHOUT AUTHORITY. YES, when they say a spirit told them to do it it was the Devil made them do it.

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Fred Whaley
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Mission Almost Accomplished

January 5 2012, 11:48 AM 

Fred was successful in thwarting Dr. Crump's negative campaign. Now an anonymous B of a milder manner but with a similar superior-acting personality is making childish comments toward Dave. Fred's mission is the same but the target has changed to this new rising star in the concerned members forum.

Fred Up Whaley

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Re: Mission Almost Accomplished

January 5 2012, 2:27 PM 

Fred, we can handle Dave quite well without your "help." So drink your warm milk and go back into hibernation. We'll let you know when it's time to wake up.

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Hotdogs Anyone?

December 27 2011, 9:51 AM 

Throughout the history of our Lord, we have seen singing and dancing and singing and playing of the instruments along with the singing. Now B wants to believe that because the NT doesn't specifically speak of sing with instruments, then it should be avoided. I see.
And the NT says that it should be vocal music ONLY, right?
Wrong! Again, that is people wanting to abuse Scripture to make their traditions better than someone else's tradition.
The sin is in the fact that musical instruments aren't listed as sin. When people add sins to the Word that is not already listed, therein lies the sin.
Again, recorded history shows that David pleased God in playing and singing. Pleasing God in that manner didn't stop when Jesus died on the cross.
B, maybe you could try the one about the man who ordered a hotdog with relish and got ketchup too....that is always a stellar one.

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Re: Hotdogs Anyone?

January 6 2012, 5:25 PM 

Do you find Jesus dancing, as recorded in the Bible?

If you look at the Men of the Bible, Abraham was going to sacrifice his son to God, God stopped him, as that was not the way he wanted to be worshipped. David, the King, developed a way to worship God and God saw him as a man after his heart, and yet prophesy said the savior was on the way to change the way David was doing things. Then Jesus came and did not follow his Jewish religion to give us a new way to worship God. People rejected his example then and people reject his example now. Dave what are you describing the way David would worship God or the way way Jesus would worship God? Or does it matter to you that you do not follow the example of Christ?

Dave, Just Curious did you get a Degree at a church of Christ University?

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

That's true

January 6 2012, 9:31 PM 

Going further, this suggested sacrifices was on Mount Moriah where the temple was later built.

The message of this action was to prove that God Has Provided the Lamb.

Stephen says that
God permittedd David a Tent on Mount Zion
But, Solomon built God a House on Mount Moriah.
But, God does not live in houses built by human hands nor is he worshipped by the works of human hands.

Christ in the prophets says that God did not command sacrifices or burnt offerings when He rescued them from Egypt.

So it seems that Solomon attenpted to substitute the lambs and goats of the poor people and rejected the fact that God HAD PROVIDED.

Paul in Galatians leapfrogs the Law and calls us back to the Abrahamic covenant.
So, when we try to PROVIDE the hard work of playing "machines for doing hard work" we deny that Jesus Christ has provided it all and we are commanded to rest and come learn of ME. I think that performers who invade churches THINK and CLAIM that they provide the work by "leading you into the presence of God."

Those who refuse to make instrumental noise are in fact those who believe in GRACE and do not have to work so hard at trying to get God'sattention. They must think that He is deaf.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Hotdogs Anyone?

January 7 2012, 2:05 AM 


Not sure, but I seem to recall that David Fields received his undergraduate degree from Abilene Christian C/U[?]

Now, ask him if he is an elder [again] of a "non-instrumental" congregation in Clemson, SC.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Christ inspired the Prophets

December 26 2011, 9:47 PM 

When you even remotely question the Word it is a mark that you HAVE been terminated.

The reason Christ in Isaiah 58 outlawed seeking our own pleasure or speaking our own words is that He is God and we are not. There is not the slightest hint that anyone being supported to Teach the Word as it has been taught would ever permit and lie to add instruments who is NOT of the Devil: Jesus said that they speak on their OWN. Because of the infinite difference between God and his creatures it is not possible that our fabrications can carry spirit along with them to make OUR spirit alive to God's Spirit. Music from mystery MEANS to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter.

Being delusional is to DENY that you do not teach "He didn't say not to" when just about every post says just that thing.

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

A Disciple never whines "but, but, but" which proves that the conception of God is that He is about my size and a bit smarter. That's just fine: Many (most) are called but few (almost none) are chosen which means like Jesus

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience the things which he suffered;
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect,
....he became the author of eternal salvation
....unto all them that obey him;

You cannot use MACHINES for doing hard work while Jesus comes to teach when the elders "teach that WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT" and OBEY JESUS CHRIST. That means that you ARE disobedient--not qualified to be a son of god. Paul warned about elders who let the WOLVES in to honor him: the wolves are the old style praise singers--boy molesters--in all of the NACCs proof examples.

[linked image]
[linked image]

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(no login)

The Truth Shall Set You Free...

December 27 2011, 3:30 PM 

Ken said "The reason Christ in Isaiah 58 outlawed seeking our own pleasure or speaking our own words is that He is God and we are not."

....He is God and we are not.....

Now there's a bonafide truth if I ever saw one Ken. If you could speak like that all the time your listeners might actually listen to you.

Thank you.

However, when you add words that aren't a part of the 66 books you are speaking and adding "that which is not written." You go against what you teach.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Satan is Source of ALL religious instruments: NO exception in any history.

December 27 2011, 3:55 PM

When ALL of the deliberate sowers of discord DENY that the Bible repudiates all of the performing arts (hypocrites), I just have to define words a resource CLOSED OFF from those who SELL their body as mediator and then lie about all truth.

When they claim that EVERYONE used instruments and the Pharisees stopped I just have to point out that they are liars and their tongue is already on fire. Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites by pointing to Isaiah and Ezekial 33 which NAMES NAMES: slick preachers, singers and instrument players.

As a last resort to prove that they are sons of the Devil because "they speak on their own"(Jesus). And I have had to rummage through all recorded history of music in the church beginning with clay tablets to prove that there is not a JOT OR TITTLE of recorded history which does not mark people using instruments in "religion" were "Drunk, Peverted or just mocking people."

Since Jude was a student of Enoch he would have understood that those FOR WHOM God comes in judgment are musical deceivers: soothsayers, sorcerers.

Jude says that they are:

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having mens persons in admiration because of advantage.

Enoch 7: 10 Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and trees.

-Epa^eid , contr. Att. epad , fut.
A. -asomai Ar.Ec.1153, etc.; -as Ach.Tat.2.7:sing to or in accompaniment, magos anr . . e. theogonin Hdt.1.132; dan khor E.El.864(lyr.):Pass., Arr.An.2.16.3.
2. sing as an incantation, ha hai Seirnes epdon t Odussei X.Mem.2.6.11; khr ta toiauta hsper epadein heaut Pl.Phd.114d, cf. 77e; e. hmin autois touton ton logon Id.R.608a; e. tini sing to one so as to charm or soothe him, Id.Phdr.267d, Lg.812c, al.:Pass., Porph.Chr.35: abs., use charms or incantations, Pl.Tht.157c; epaeidn by means of charms, A.Ag.1021 (lyr.), cf. Pl.Lg.773d, Tht.149d.

-Euripides, Electra 859 . Set your step to the dance, my dear, [860] like a fawn leaping high up to heaven with joy. Your brother is victorious and has accomplished the wearing of a crown . . . beside the streams of Alpheus . Come sing [865] a glorious victory ode, to my dance.

-Magos [a^, ou, ho, Magian, one of a Median tribe, Hdt.1.101, Str. 15.3.1: hence, as belonging to this tribe,
2. one of the priests and wise men in Persia who interpreted dreams, Hdt.7.37, al., Arist.Fr. 36, Phoen.1.5, Ev.Matt.2.1.
3. enchanter, wizard, esp. in bad sense, impostor, charlatan, Heraclit.14, S.OT387, E.Or.1498 (lyr.), Pl.R.572e, Act.Ap.13.6, Vett. Val.74.17: also fem., Luc.Asin.4, AP 5.15 (Marc. Arg.).
II. magos, on, as Adj., magical, magps tekhn prattein ti Philostr.VA1.2; kestou phneusa magtera

I just keep challenging your PhDuh to find one jot or tittle of instruments connected with the worship of a Spirit God. NOPE: Israel had been abandoned to worship the starry host. They can't even read Acts 7 and ask for the meaning.

All Recorded history and traditions prove that instruments were introduced by the DEVIL as sorcery or soothsaying to PREVENT people from hearing the Word of God. It certainly works on certain class of frogs which can be boiled proving that they are inhabited by Frog Demons--quacks.

You know that you are in the period of LYING WONDERS when people become "doctors of the law" just to take away the key to knowledge.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Dec 27, 2011 4:59 PM

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(no login)

I Wonder Still.....

December 27 2011, 10:13 PM 

I wonder what this means...."That sums it up: a person OF FAITH or OF TRUTH would not even think about rebuking a human who gave them orders to do something."

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I Still Wonder...

December 28 2011, 12:31 AM 

You ever heard the song 'Mean' by Taylor Swift? Some people are just mean and really like being mean. It gives them an air of superiority.
I just don't understand why they have to dabble in religion when they choose to be mean. Jesus is about love, and you don't like what gives?

All that you write about is doom and gloom....too morbid. If it isn't morbid it is perverted. You would even give the demons the shudders. Take a look at all your writings. Your next to last post was where you slandered someone with "boy molesters." If it isn't that then it is something else perverted, or witchcraft, or sorcery, or dancing naked.
Why would you want to have anything to do with Jesus, who calls you to love others.
Even if you despise other men, what did God say about loving your enemies?
Find something else constructive to do Ken.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Don't keep loving the DEVIL

December 28 2011, 3:22 PM 

Tom Burgess is used as the authority for COMMANDING musical instruments and trying to do away with those who will not follow the leader. I have posted the REST of Tom Burgess' proof examples and ALL of the PLUCKING examples are of older males pulcking the harp to pluck a young male whose hairs had been plucked.

Tom Burgess:Tom Burgess p. 33: Chrysostom strongly opposed instruments because they were "lifeless, demons, unnecessary, and used in heathen entertainments--cf. Hom. Ps. 149:2; Hom. Ps 150. Clement said that such instruments as the pipe and flute were "more suitable to beasts than to men. " He calls such music "licentious and mischievous. " Cf. Instructor. These interesting comparisons are

full of impressive emotional prejudice but demonstrate no scriptural backing and therefore would appeal only to one who is searching for a cause and not the truth.

Self-protection and preservation caused the instrument to be used sparingly;
some abused its use causing it to be compared to pagan music;

hence, some have concluded that conviction based on scripture had stopped the music!

Of course, that's a lie: we don't love lies or liars. The only use of instruments would have been at "how to conduct ourselves at feasts." This would have been "outside of church." All pagans used instruments at festivals and Chrysostom outlawed everything but the lyre and then allegorized that."

FACTS: Chrysostom on Colossians defines HOW and WHAT happened at church:

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you"; that is,
the teaching, the doctrines, the exhortation
, wherein He says, that the present life is nothing, nor yet its good things.
If we know this, we shall yield to no hardships whatever. (Matt. vi. 25, &c)
"Let it dwell in you," he saith, "richly," not simply dwell, but with great abundance. Hearken ye, as many as are worldly,
and have the charge of wife and children;
how to you too he commits especially the reading of the Scriptures
and that not to be done lightly, nor in any sort of way, but with much earnestness.

Now THAT is what Jesus EXAMPLED and Paul commanded in the "synagogue" in Rom 15, what Paul did out on mission, what he commanded Timothy and what the church did until about the year 400 when SINGING WAS ADDED TO THE ASSEMBLY. WHY would you have instruments when the were literate and READ the word as commanded.

From 1 Cor 10 which warns of the PLAY or musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. Homily XII, Col 4

FACTS:I dare say you consider me offensive. For this too is a property of extreme pervertedness, that even one that rebuketh you incurs your ridicule as one that is austere. Hear ye not Paul, saying, "Whatsoever ye do, whether ye eat or drink or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God"? (1 Cor. x. 31)

But ye do all to ill report and dishonor. Hear ye not the Prophet, saying, "Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice unto Him with trembling?" (Ps. ii. 11) But ye are wholly without restraint. Is it not possible both to enjoy pleasure, and to do so with safety?
Art thou desirous of hearing beautiful songs? Best of all indeed, thou oughtest not; nevertheless,
I condescend if thou wilt have it so: do not hear those Satanic ones, but the spiritual.

Art thou desirous of seeing choirs of dancers?
Behold the choir of Angels. And how is it possible, saith one, to see them?
If thou drive away all these things, even Christ will come to such a marriage, and Christ being present, the choir of Angels is present also. If thou wilt, He will even now work miracles as He did then; He will make even now the water, wine (John ii.); and what is much more wonderful,
He will convert this unstable and dissolving pleasure, this cold desire, and change it into the spiritual. This is to make of water, wine.
Where pipers are, by no means there is Christ;
but even if He should have entered, [the musical minstrels]
He first casts these forth, and then He works His wonders.
What can be more disagreeable than this Satanic pomp?
where everything is everything without significancy; and if there be anything articulate,
again all is shameful, all is noisome

Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG. If you have musical minstrels who have invaded your church then CAST THEM OUT more or less violently. That is how to love Jesus and HIS Word.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Dec 28, 2011 3:40 PM

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Division is Sin!

January 2 2012, 5:23 PM 

Quote from Dave Fields:

Hotdogs Anyone? December 27 2011, 9:51 AM

Throughout the history of our Lord, we have seen singing and dancing and singing and playing of the instruments along with the singing. Now B wants to believe that because the NT doesn't specifically speak of sing with instruments, then it should be avoided. I see.

And the NT says that it should be vocal music ONLY, right?
Wrong! Again, that is people wanting to abuse Scripture to make their traditions better than someone else's tradition.
The sin is in the fact that musical instruments aren't listed as sin. When people add sins to the Word that is not already listed, therein lies the sin.

Again, recorded history shows that David pleased God in playing and singing. Pleasing God in that manner didn't stop when Jesus died on the cross.

B, maybe you could try the one about the man who ordered a hotdog with relish and got ketchup too....that is always a stellar one.


How did you come up with the expression "throughout the history of our Lord"? And then follow it up with: "we have seen singing and dancing and singing and playing of the instruments along with the singing"? Really creative thought patterns, Dave.

What you have described is more like the history of musical idolatry!!! The Old Testament pretty much reveals musical and dancing events -- all recorded in the Bible and backed up by human history of music and dancing. Instrumental music and dancing are inseparable in the entertainment world, and that includes "holy" entertainment!!!!

B is correct in that "the NT doesn't specifically speak of sing with instruments." Besides, it specifically speaks of "singing ... making melody in your heart to the Lord" or of "singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." How can it be more specific than that? Your problem, Dave, is that you want God's truth and His word to state YOUR desire: "singing with musical accessories to the Lord."

Now, Dave, the bottom line is that your DESIRE "to add musical equipment and accessories to singing" is the real ABUSE of Scripture. Why are you so unwilling to accept the simple truth from God's word?

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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