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Church is named after Circe: the harlot in John's Revelation

March 10 2012 at 5:03 PM
Ken Sublett  (Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
from IP address 166.248.132.122

The word "church" does not appear in any Biblical text. While the Catholics may have latched onto "kurios" or some such word the result is a hierarchy of absolute control. Most churches have used the word Circe or Kirke when there was no Biblical evidence to do so and ALL of the literature at the time that ekklesia or synagogue was used was perhaps PROPHETIC of the churches which have become Circles (as in witchcraft) or Circuses as in performance music and drama.

Circe is well documented in the Classics and people did not begin to come out of the Dark Ages until they became students of the Classics which very often had Egyptian and Hebrew roots.

Here is a short bit to determine whether your KIRKE is really engaged in witchcraft or sorcery (Revelation 18 shows the marks). Christ in Isaiah 30 and John shows that these are the identifying marks of those who will be cast alive into the lake of fire: perhaps they are being consumed by their own breath (spirit).

[linked image]





What about scholars and preachers and occupational praise teams who claim that God commanded instrumental praise when there is no such evidence. Proof cannot change self-willl but the fact is that no one COULD sing any of the commanded RESOURCE in a tuneful sense: even in the more "speaking than singing styles" noone ventured to IMPOSE singing as an ACT (work) before the fourth century.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hymns.Spiritual.Songs.html



I am starting a new thread because people are skeptical about defining Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Odes the as not defining "musical worship" when the assembly is clearly defined as a School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles.

Greg: I have posted the "overkill" data on the meaning of Hymns. You can click on most of these links and go to the real literature to validate the fact that hymning was SPEAKING unless one adds SINGING and then a word for HYMN. Harps or Lyres are always excluded and flutes must be added to the words for hymning. There is no single word for singing and playing and the name of an instrument.

Being a disciple means I have no interest beyond reading the text and seeing what the words meant to the writers of the time.

I have posted some data on Speaking Psalms Hymns and Odes here.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hymns.Spiritual.Odes.html

Follow up question on the viewpoint of no command to sing...

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?


They "hymned"" which has various meanings: here it means "reciting a form of the Law" and means to recite hymns which were types in the BOOK of Psalms. Like all such words it is without singing unless indicated, never means with a lyre and with a flute only when intending to create anxiety.

When Jesus and the apostles "hymned" the word is DICO or speak. There is no word which INCLUDES a musical instrument unless one commands to [1] hymn [2] WITH a named [3] instrument. Any simple simon would know how to command group singing WITH a musical instrument. To try to force the Spirit to give us aid and comfort for sowing discord and stopping the teaching-admonishing pattern would seem to be blasphemy. Jeremiah 23 has Christ defining saying something that God did not say is blasphemy.

Additionally, I Cor. 14:26 regarding orderly worship alludes to, and some versions actually use the word "sing" in part of what occurs when the church meets together. Is it too much of a stretch doctrinally to infer some idea or possible command of singing from these passages from example and direct inference? I know nothing of the Greek here. I don't want to bind a command to sing if there really isn't one, but want to look further at your position of singing not being required by God for the worship.

We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity. In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.128.194 on Mar 26, 2012 10:11 PM


 
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AuthorReply
Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

I Think Not

March 10 2012, 6:28 PM 

It isn't skepticism of defining Psalms....it is people who believe that they ONLY have the ability to interpret Scriptures, and if anyone disagrees with them then they are doomed to hell.

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
216.67.41.59

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns Spiritual Odes

March 10 2012, 6:44 PM 

We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.

"And when they had sung an hymn , they went out into the mount of Olives." - Matt.26:30

"And when they had sung an hymn , they went out into the mount of Olives." - Mark 14:26

"Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery." - Psalm 81:2

"Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm." Psalm 98:5

Seems Like your "facts" are off by a couple of centuries. Did you make this up too?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.132.122

Sorry you missed reading

March 10 2012, 10:01 PM 

Take a [1] psalm, and bring hither the [2] timbrel, the pleasant [3] harp with the [4] psaltery." - Psalm 81:2

Psalm NEVER includes an instrument UNLESS it is defined: if you tell little brother and sister singer to PLUCK there is no telling WHAT they will pluck. Psallo EXCLUDES anything but plucking with the FINGER and never with a PLECTRUM. You cannot pluck a flute with your finger.

[1] Sing unto the LORD with the [2] harp; with the harp, and the voice of a [3] psalm." Psalm 98:5

David NEVER sang and played to a "congregation." No one but the cursed, disinherited Levites could make instrumental noise OUTSIDE of the temple: it is defined as SOOTHSAYING with INSTRUMENTS.

Psalm does NOT includes singing OR a harp.

"Speak (opposite to poetry or music) ONE TO ANOTHER using BIBLICAL text.

It takes three words to [1] sing and [2] play and the name of an [3] instrument

Paul said sing and make melody IN THE HEART (that's a place) which is the ANTITHESIS to your preacher who said:

Let the team SING to you NOT using psalms, hymns or spiritual songs
Singing and MAKING MELODY upon a HARP.

See the difference?


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.132.122 on Mar 10, 2012 10:13 PM


 
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Brian Cade
(Login BrianCade)
66.230.88.56

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns Spiritual Odes

March 11 2012, 1:15 AM 

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?

The Greek word is "humneo", meaning "to sing the praise of", "sing hymns to", "to sing a hymn",or "to sing" (Strong's 5214), from "humnos" meaning "a song in the praise of gods, heroes, or conquerors","a sacred song",or "hymn". There is no doubt Paul and Silas were making vocal music. Whether we would recognize it as such 2000 years later is another matter. Melody and harmony as we know them didn't develop into their recognizable forms until well into the eleventh century.

 
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B
(no login)
98.87.24.175

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns Spiritual Odes

March 11 2012, 9:01 AM 

All that matters is that Paul and Silas "sang hymns," melody and harmony aside. Even if there had been no "recognizable" melody as we know it today, theirs was STILL a vocal hymn of praise without instrumental accompaniment. Enough said.

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
216.67.47.250

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns Spiritual Odes

March 11 2012, 3:42 PM 

...which means the passage is not against musical instruments as it is for the use of singing in praise of God.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.62.92

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns Spiritual Odes

March 11 2012, 6:11 PM 

...which means the passage doesn't mention, advocate, or command the use of, musical instruments. Since singing is the New Testament example of the type of music to use, then adding instruments evokes the sham, man-made rule of "God didn't say not to," which goes above and beyond what is written in the New Testament. Certainly there is no biblical record that Paul and Silas made a habit of carrying around lutes and lyres for the express purpose of accompanying their singing. Or maybe the change agents would desperately argue that the New Testament conveniently "forgot" to mention that.

 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.51.27

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns Spiritual Odes

March 12 2012, 4:25 PM 

...which means the passage doesn't mention, advocate, or command the use of, musical instruments. Since singing is the New Testament example of the type of music to use, then adding instruments evokes the sham, man-made rule of "God didn't say not to," which goes above and beyond what is written in the New Testament. Certainly there is no biblical record that Paul and Silas made a habit of carrying around lutes and lyres for the express purpose of accompanying their singing. Or maybe the change agents would desperately argue that the New Testament conveniently "forgot" to mention that.

********************************************************

"B", surely Paul and Silas were equipped with the standard instrument aid bag consisting of a pitch pipe, tuning fork and PA system? happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.76.240

Single Words for using an instrument

March 12 2012, 5:41 PM 

Psallo is the FOUNDATION upon which the NACC built their attempt to force churches of Christ to have "unity with them." Unity always meant "conformity" or Affirmation.

Psallo means pluck with the fingers and never with a plectrum: Tom Burgess is another authority for plucking connected to instruments. Unfortunately all of the plucking+A+harp is connected with older males-like Alexander the Great--plucking the lyre too skilled for his father's taste in trying to seduce a younger male.

The Holy Spirit and Paul are mocked when people blame "them" for not knowing as much as a school boy at the time. ALWAYS when psallowing or blowing an instrument there are dedicated words. There is one compound word for EVERY possible instrument and even number of strings and style of plucking.

[linked image]

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

More assumptions

March 11 2012, 6:19 PM 

Where does it say that the Apostles sang with the use of instrumental music. The ASSUMPTION would to be that since the Scriptures don't mention the use of instruments then they didn't have them. The assumption SHOULD be that since men used instruments to praise God in the OT then it carried over into the praising of God int the NT. The New Covenant did away with animal sacrifices.....what would that have to do with praising God with instruments?

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.242.79

Re: More assumptions

March 11 2012, 9:11 PM 

Don't assume anything. Don't assume that instruments were "carried over" from the Old Covenant into the New Covenant. The denominationalists and change agents wrongly assume that if the New Testament doesn't say not to use instruments, then instruments are OK. That's the old "God didn't say not to," and it's risky business. The safe thing to do is to abide by the music specified in the New Testament--which is vocal music--and go no further as far as music is concerned.

 
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Anonymous
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216.67.70.24

Re: More assumptions

March 11 2012, 10:04 PM 

All that to say the passage supports the use of singing.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.11.9

Re: More assumptions

March 11 2012, 11:16 PM 

All that to remind folks not to add to a specific command in the New Testament, which denominationalists do all the time when they implement instrumental music.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Instrumental Music Was NOT Part of the Old Covenant

March 11 2012, 11:06 PM 

Dave,

You are correct in that Christians are under the new covenant and no longer observe the law of Moses and offer blood sacrifices and burnt offerings.

Why would you ASSUME that musical instruments and dancing were part of the old covenant, but weren't done away with?

The pagans also loved musical instruments and dancing -- probably more so than "followers of God" who WERE NOT COMMANDED to praise God with instruments.

Truth is that instrumental music and dancing (Psalm 150) were NEVER part of the OLD COVENANT. Two fallacies in your assumption:

(1) FALLACY: That praising God with instruments was carried over into NT.
(2) FALLACY: That which was NOT part of the OLD could be carried over to the NEW.

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Same Ole Same Ole

March 11 2012, 10:45 PM 

The safe thing to do? Hide your talent in the ground....know what I mean? You who berates those who ASSUME yet you promote CENI? What do you consider to be Necessary Inference? People throw rocks from glass houses and promote double standards.
Know what I mean B?

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.11.9

Re: Same Ole Same Ole

March 11 2012, 11:28 PM 

There's not one word in the New Testament stating that if we have a "talent" for playing a musical instrument, then we are to exhibit it in worship. That's another man-made assumption the denominationalists and denominational sympathizers make, and they'll keep making that assumption until Doom's Day. People must realize that there is simply no New Testament basis for using musical instruments in Christian worship on earth. Every rationale for doing so man has concocted to satisfy his desire for worldly pleasure in worship.

 
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Anonymous
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66.230.82.29

Re: Same Ole Same Ole

March 11 2012, 11:56 PM 

Honesty compels us to admit, however, that there is no specific prohibition against it.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Honesty Compels Us to Accept Roman Catholic Church Teachings

March 12 2012, 1:15 AM 

If you rely on SPECIFIC "thou shalt not" [prohibitive] directives as means by which God or the Holy Scripture authorizes, then, you are in agreement with the pope and the Roman Catholic Church regarding its teachings.

Does the Scripture state, "thou shalt not"

1. Venerate angels and dead saints?
2. Worship the Virgin Mary, Mother of God?
3. Pray for the dead?
4. Kiss the Pope's feet?
5. Confess sin to the priest?
6. Believe that the pope is infallible?
7. ... etc., etc., etc.?

 
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Anonymous
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209.193.57.133

Re: Honesty Compels Us to Accept Roman Catholic Church Teachings

March 12 2012, 5:21 AM 

Regardless of what the Catholics may do, are you honest enough to admit that there is no specific prohibition against musical instruments? If not, why not?

 
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