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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.76.240

Those without EYES and EARS can neither see nor hear.

March 12 2012, 5:15 PM 

Why not give some hing that there is a command, example or remote inference that God COMMANDED instruments when God in Christ ordained the Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ to be EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing or elevated form of speech. Disciples of Christ COULD NEVER impose instrumental noise when Christ comes to be out ONLY teacher when the elders teacht that which has been taught or "that which is written for our learning?"

Martin Luther and all historic Scholars prior to the Disciples c 1878 knew there was nothing to authorize instruments in the School of Christ.

http://www.piney.com/RefMLuthRom15.html

53. Service to God is praise of him. It must be free and voluntary, at table, in the chamber, cellar, garret, in house or field, in all places, with all persons, at all times.

Whosoever teaches otherwise is no less guilty of falsehood than the Pope and the devil himself.

But how shall there be with us honor and praise of God, true service to him, when we neither love him nor receive his blessings? And how shall we love him when we do not know him and his blessings?

And how shall we know him and his blessings when no word is preached concerning them
and when the Gospel is left to lie under the table?
Where the Gospel is not in evidence, knowledge of God is an impossibility.
Then to love and praise him is likewise impossible.

As a further consequence it is necessarily impossible for divine service to exist.

Even if all the choristers were one chorister, all the priests one priest,
all the monks one monk, all the churches one church,
all the bells one bell; in brief if all the foolish services offered to God in the institutions,
churches and cloisters were a hundred thousand times greater and more numerous than they are,
what does God care for such carnivals and juggling?

54. Therefore, God complains most of the Jews in the second chapter of Micah,

because they silenced his praise, while at the same time,
they piped, blared and moaned like we do.
True divine service of praise cannot be established with revenues,
nor be circumscribed by laws and statutes.
High and low festivals have nothing to do with it.
It emanates from the Gospel, and certainly is as often rendered by a poor,
rustic servant as by a great bishop. [51]


So, maybe you will tell us why YOU want to silence the Word of God commanded to be PREACHED by being READ and discussed to make a place for the singy-clappys always marked with a gender bleed from all recorded history.

And why you think people can escape being cast alive into the Lake of Fire with sorcerers and dogs when John identified the "singers, speakers, instrument players and all religious technicians as SORCERERS who HAD deceived the whole world. Scripture makes these "old spirits" who when they "speak on their own" are called son s of the devil.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.42.38

These Men Know Exactly What They are Doing, but Have Closed Thieir Hearts and Ears

March 12 2012, 12:12 PM 

Luke 10
27 He answered, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and, Love your neighbor as yourself.

Then Donnie Cruz asks.....

Does the Scripture state, "thou shalt not"
1. Venerate angels and dead saints?
2. Worship the Virgin Mary, Mother of God?
3. Pray for the dead?
4. Kiss the Pope's feet?
5. Confess sin to the priest?
6. Believe that the pope is infallible?
7. ... etc., etc., etc.?

Yes Donnie, in reference to Luke 10:27 the Scriptures DO say "thou shalt not" to all 7; therefore rending all 7 points to be sinful.
Now, show a likewise Scripture that states that instrumental music is sinful as Luke 10 does for all 7 of your points.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.76.240

Satan Fall From heaven

March 12 2012, 5:33 PM 

Jesus had some other things to say: you cannot love anyone if you imitate the pattern of the Devil

But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. Luke 10:14

The king/queen of Tyre was INDWELLED by Lucifer who was the "singing and harp playing prostitute."

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Eze.28:13

frmen 4: tibia tenuis simplexque foramine pauco,Hor. Ars 203

Hor. Ars 203 Let a play which would be inquired after, and though seen, represented anew, be neither shorter nor longer than the fifth act. Neither let a god interfere, unless a difficulty worthy a god's unraveling should happen; nor let a fourth person be officious to speak.1

Let the chorus2 sustain the part and manly3 character of an actor: nor let them sing any thing between the acts which is not conducive to, and fitly coherent with, the main design. Let them both patronize the good,4 and give them friendly advice, and regulate the passionate, and love to appease thou who swell [with rage]:5 let them praise the repast of a short meal, the salutary effects of justice, laws, and peace with her open gates; let them conceal what is told to them in confidence,6 and supplicate and implore the gods that prosperity may return to the wretched, and abandon the haughty.

The flute,7 (not as now, begirt with brass and emulous of the trumpet, but) slender and of simple form, with few stops, was of service to accompany and assist the chorus

2 The chorus was not introduced between the acts, merely to relieve the audience, but had a part in the play, and concurred with the other actors to carry on the plot, and support the probability of it. The Choriphaeus, or first person of the chorus, entered in the acts, and spoke for all those of whom the chorus was composed;


That describes the Lucifer worship: she/he/it was the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. Isa 23:15

Which goes: Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. Isa 23:16

And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the Lord will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth. Isa 23:17


Lucifer is ZOE in her modern incarnation while HALAL is the "praise" song of David making himself vile.

[linked image]
[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.72.83 on Mar 12, 2012 10:07 PM


 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
216.67.48.106

Re: Satan Fall From heaven

March 12 2012, 9:13 PM 

This is relevant how?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.72.83

singing

March 12 2012, 10:27 PM 

Scholars are certain that when one read or recited something poetic or addresssed to the "gods" it was called singing: when Moses sang the song of Moses he RECITED it. Further, singing was using the normal inflections of the human voice. Also from this reference:

The case I take to have been this: the tibia, as being most proper to accompany the declamation of the acts, cantanti succinere, was constantly employed, as well in the Roman tragedy as comedy

The other is still more express. In his piece entitled "Orator," speaking of the negligence of the Roman writers in respect of numbers, he observes, that there were even many passages in their tragedies, which, unless the tibia played to them, could not be distinguished from mere prose:

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
216.67.47.110

Re: singing

March 12 2012, 11:45 PM 

You don't know what you're talking about. You are making this up.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Dave's Eyes and Ears Closed or Attention Deficit Syndrome

March 13 2012, 4:47 AM 

Dave,

You don't pay much attention to details.

Praying for the dead or confessing sin to the priest as the Roman Catholic Church teaches has nothing to do with the passage you quoted [Luke 10:27].

A Catholic can claim as much as you to love God and to love his neighbor but at the same time think and believe that he lives righteously by venerating angels.

A Catholic's logic is similar to yours and Brian's, et al -- looking for a specific "thou shalt not" as in: "thou shalt not operate musical machines in the assembly of saints."

So, the point is that yours is an erroneous assumption as that of a Catholic that where the Scripture does not prohibit [with a "thou shalt not" perform] an activity, such an activity is authorized.

"Non-prohibitive is authoritative" is fallacious by scriptural standards.

CENI (command, example, necessary inference) is a great principle as it eliminates or excludes OPINION, IDEA, SUPPOSITION, DOUBT, IMITATION.

-- There is no command or directive from God to perform IM.
-- There is no example of its use in the assembly of saints.
-- There is no implication that can be derived from Scripture re IM.


On the other hand:

-- Operating musical devices to worship God is man's idea.
-- Operating musical devices to worship God is man's opinion.
-- Operating musical devices to worship God is man's supposition.
-- Operating musical devices to worship God is imitating ...
-- ... the pagan's music and dancing to worship their gods.

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
216.67.48.44

Re: Dave's Eyes and Ears Closed or Attention Deficit Syndrome

March 13 2012, 4:13 PM 

CENI is invalid as a hermeneutical technique. It allows proof-texting.

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
216.67.48.44

Re: Dave's Eyes and Ears Closed or Attention Deficit Syndrome

March 13 2012, 4:16 PM 

Regardless of what the Catholics may do, are you honest enough to admit that there is no prohibition against the use of musical instruments? Are you afraid of being honest?

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Evil is as Evil Does

March 12 2012, 11:29 PM 

Ken,
You said "Scholars are certain that when one read or recited something poetic or addresssed to the "gods" it was called singing: when Moses sang the song of Moses he RECITED it. Further, singing was using the normal inflections of the human voice."

That is not true and you know it. I am not asking you to show proof because you have already proven it, and NOTHING that you have given here, at piney.com, or anywhere else has proven that.
You see why you get such a reputation.
You fit in nicely here with this evil and wicked consortium.

Proverbs 5:22
The evil deeds of the wicked ensnare them; the cords of their sins hold them fast.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.42.38

Same Ole Same Ole

March 13 2012, 8:11 AM 

Donnie, you said "Praying for the dead or confessing sin to the priest as the Roman Catholic Church teaches has nothing to do with the passage you quoted [Luke 10:27]."

Donnie, you and the gang here can claim anything you want at anytime here, but the Scriptures have shown you to be wrong time and time again.

If you love the Lord your God with all your heart (Luke 10:27) then you wouldn't allow another man (Catholic priest) to take the place of Jesus and His (and His alone) ability to wipe those sins away.


As far as the rest of your statement it is more of the same false rhetoric.

 
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ken sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.65.134

Matthew 26: they SPOKE a hymn and went out

March 13 2012, 4:36 PM 

Paul and Silas PRAYED a hymn which is a PRAYER.

Notice that a DISCIPLE would never follow the patternism of a scholar or preacher.
First, you quote the whole verse.
Second, you see how words are defined in the Greek or Latin Text
Third, you see how the word is used in the literature of the time.

Don't worry about it: even if you could catch on proving that you have A holy spirit or A good conscience, consciousness or a co-perception, once you have taken the instrumental fork in the road there is no turning back. That is a message well defined in The Book of Enoch and the story of GENUN who is the Babylonian composite of Jubal, Jabal, Tubal-Cain and Naamah (an Ammonitess)

Genesis 4:21 And his brothers name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

Handle (taphas, tambourine, topheth (hell) manipulate, that is, seize; chiefly to capture, wield; figuratively to use unwarrantably:

[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
216.67.40.225

Re: Matthew 26: they SPOKE a hymn and went out

March 13 2012, 9:49 PM 

Now you want to rewrite the Bible to fit your deluded babbling? You really are a piece of work, man.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Matthew 26: they SPOKE a hymn and went out

March 13 2012, 11:59 PM 

Brian,

Quoting from various sources is far from rewriting the Bible. Research is something you can do too. But as of now, you have a lot of catching up to do. I can't help but admire Ken for his voluminous research work. Did you actually read and study his preceding post? Ken quoted several passages from Scripture to support and prove his research. Perhaps you were so overwhelmed that you referred to his research as "deluded babbling" and to his quoting the Bible as rewriting the Bible.

The Douay-Rheims Bible [Catholic] translates Matt. 26:30 as follows: "And a HYMN BEING SAID, they went out unto mount Olivet" [emph. dc]. (And there are other versions with similar translation.)

Barnes' Notes on the Bible has this to say: "The word rendered 'sung a hymn' is a participle, literally meaning 'HYMNING'...."

Clarke's Commentary: "And when they had sung a hymn - [Greek word] means, probably, no more than a kind of recitative reading or chanting."

Now, Brian, Eph. 5:19 states two clauses:

(1) Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs
(2) Singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord

Here are a few questions for you and Dave:

(1) Why is (a) "speaking" separate from (b) "singing and making melody"?
(2) What are those in the assembly to speak to one another?
(3) Do you find Eph. 5:19 a bit difficult to comprehend because of the word "speaking"?
(4) Do you find mechanically operating musical devices in the passage?
(5) If you do not, why complicate the passage with your IM verbiage?

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
209.193.57.42

Re: Matthew 26: they SPOKE a hymn and went out

March 14 2012, 3:20 AM 

Very subtle but still an ad hominum argument. The question on the floor is where in scripture is there a specific prohibition against musical instruments? So far, no one has provided an answer.
I am not advocating and never have advocated that the church of Christ should include instruments in the worship service. Wouldn't dream of it; it is too divisive an issue.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Matthew 26: they SPOKE a hymn and went out

March 14 2012, 8:42 AM 

Brian,

You've already been provided several examples of activities that the Roman Catholic Church practices. There is not a specific "thou shalt not" (SPECIFIC PROHIBITION) for each of them.

Using mechanical music in the assembly falls in that very same category. But your logic matches that of the pope's.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
216.67.72.4

Re: Matthew 26: they SPOKE a hymn and went out

March 16 2012, 2:07 AM 

Answer the question, Donnie. Are you honest enough to admit that there is not a single prohibition in scripture against instruments or instrumental music? Quit trying to sidetrack the issue.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Matthew 26: they SPOKE a hymn and went out

March 16 2012, 4:57 AM 

I've already answered the question a number of times. What didn't you understand? Here was the latest response from me:
Brian,

You've already been provided several examples of activities that the Roman Catholic Church practices. There is not a specific "thou shalt not" (SPECIFIC PROHIBITION) for each of them.

Using mechanical music in the assembly falls in that very same category. But your logic matches that of the pope's.

I'm a bit disappointed in your asking the question again and in my having to explain further. So, my response above remains, and further explanation follows.

There is NOT a single PROHIBITION in Scripture AGAINST nor a single COMMAND in Scripture FOR any of the following activities:

-- Praying for the dead;
-- Canonizing dead saints;
-- Confessing sin to the priest;
-- Praying the Rosary and with prayer beads;
-- Kissing the pope's feet and believing he is infallible;
-- Selling indulgences for the forgiveness of sins;
-- Playing ... musical instruments in the assembly;
-- etc.

In essence, the absence of a "thou shalt not" [PROHIBITION] equates to "the Scripture does not say 'not to'"; neither one proves God's permission or authorization.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.62.231

Re: Matthew 26: they SPOKE a hymn and went out

March 16 2012, 1:00 PM 

Is Brian honest enough to admit that there is not a single passage of New Testament Scripture stating that God's silence about instrumental music gives us permission to use IM, when He has specifically commanded VOCAL MUSIC and mentions NOTHING ELSE?

Would Brian show us one passage of New Testament Scripture stating that we have the freedom to ADD instrumental music and thus adjust, change, or alter God's command about vocal music to suit our own personal preferences?

Would Brian show us where the statement "God didn't say not to use instrumental music" (or another statement of identical meaning) is found in the New Testament?


 
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Anonymous
(no login)
66.230.82.19

Re: Matthew 26: they SPOKE a hymn and went out

March 14 2012, 9:37 PM 

Keep this up and you are going to give Bible scholars a bad name. Ken Sublett's "research" is a joke.

 
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