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Is Concernedmembers the Antichrist?

March 14 2012, 8:23 AM 

Donnie Posted this....."And when they had sung a hymn - [Greek word] means, probably, no more than a kind of recitative reading or chanting."--which is from Clarke's commentary. Donnie, with all the research out there, the best the researcher came come up with is "probably."

Donnie, probably means "likely" or in other words, he will not give an affirmative yes. You are grasping for anything that would give you the opportunity to continue your self-consuming negative rant. If something doesn't fit your tradition then you look for even a "probably." Donnie, this is what weren't happy with destroying those Christians that use instrumental you have even gone after those that sing. That is the definition of consumes you. You remember a while back when I spoke of Ken wanting nothing to do with music in any form, including singing? You defended him and NOW look at where you are?
The part that I don't understand is if you continue to tear down churches of Christ, disciples of Christ, and don't want to sing, then why go to worship at Madison......a church that DOES enjoy participating TOGETHER to worship God and His Son.

Hey Donnie, I am coming to possibly worship at Madison in April......wanna do lunch?

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

No, David Fields, Elder, Is Anti-Church of Christ

March 14 2012, 8:53 AM 


I was showing you the difference between "speaking" and "singing." A third grader understands that.

I am sure there are many other sources out there that prove the truth concerning "hymning." Certainly, a hymn can be read or spoken as a hymn consists of teaching the word of Christ that is to "dwell in you richly."

Just follow the teaching from the Scripture and what churches of Christ believe, and you will do well serving as an elder of your congregation. So far, you've proven yourself as anti-church of Christ.

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Just Wondering....

March 14 2012, 4:00 PM 

No lunch? You still lurk in the balcony at Madison during the contemp. service?

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(no login)

I Still Wonder

March 14 2012, 11:16 AM 

Does that lunch?

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Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns Spiritual Odes

March 14 2012, 12:50 PM 

I really don't have a "horse in this race" but could someone explain to me who is "out on a limb" here? Is it the Mainline Church of Christ or Concerned Members? Is this just opinions of men or a real Church doctrine issue?

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns Spiritual Odes

March 15 2012, 3:38 AM 


The church of Christ is following what the Scripture teaches (in Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16) -- speaking to yourselves ... teaching and admonishing one another IN psalms, hymns and spiritual songs; singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. A musical instrument or device DOES NOT/CAN NOT speak, teach, admonish, sing.

ConcernedMembers agrees with the church of Christ in following what the Scripture teaches.

The "teaching and admonishing one another" is prefaced by the directive to "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom." Please READ and STUDY the passages very carefully. The PRIMARY directive to be indwelt by the word of Christ has been IGNORED by many in the discussion of operating mechanical music in the assembly.

Clearly, performing music "in/as worship" is man's opinion just as venerating the "dead saints" or praying for the dead or confessing sin to a priest is a papal/Catholic view or opinion.

Trust the Scripture: Do not look for a "thou shalt not" or "the Bible does not say 'NOT TO'" as a means to prove that man's opinion is God-authorized. You will never find man's opinion or directive in the Holy Scripture.

Yes, these are church doctrine issues.

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Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns Spiritual Odes

March 15 2012, 10:50 AM 

Since Christ through Paul addressed the kind of music we are to use in worship, which is vocal music, then it is an important, church doctrinal issue. On the other hand, the worldly denominations come along and say music is a "moot" issue, that God has more "important" things to do than worry about music. Such philosophy puts God's commands on the back burner in favor of satisfying the denominations' desire for instrumental musical entertainment in worship.

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Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns Spiritual Odes

March 15 2012, 6:00 PM 

"B", I think you have missed the gist of this lesson or maybe you can SPEAK in four-part harmony. happy.gif

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ken sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns Spiritual Odes

March 15 2012, 9:06 PM 

I told you that SPEAK was one of those truly difficult words. happy.gif

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Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns Spiritual Odes

March 16 2012, 1:09 PM 

Can you not "speak" through singing? Singing is simply speaking with a tune. Talking is speaking without singing.

Since Jesus never addressed harmony or tempo or volume of singing, they are not doctrinal or spiritual or Gospel issues. We have the freedom to sing in unison or with harmony, loudly or softly, rapidly or slowly.

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Ken Sublett
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SPEAK is the opposite of poetry or music

March 16 2012, 9:47 PM 

1Timothy 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee,
....which was given thee by prophecy, [teaching]
....with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
1Timothy 4:15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them;
....that thy profiting may appear to all.

Timothy had no more to do but to GIVE HEED to what he had been taught. Giving heed to the Word is the only way we non-mad people have of giving heed to God in Christ.

If Paul and the Spirit wanted to speak of musical melody the Greek is MELOS and never once PSALLO in any text: Psallo just means "pluck."

What Paul commanded Timothy to do as he commanded him to read the word publically, discuss any doctrinal content and COMFORT those who listened. The melody or grace IN THE HEART where harps dare not go is:

3191. meletao, mel-et-ah´-o; from a presumed derivative of 3199; to take care of, i.e. (by implication) revolve in the mind: imagine, (pre-)meditate.

Melet-a , tauta meleta 1 Ep.Ti.4.15; esp. practise speaking, con over a speech in one's mind, logaria dustna meletsas D.19.255; apologian Id.46.1; also, deliver, declaim (cf. 11.5 b), logous

I'm not against singing with or without instruments but Jesus asked "could you not tarry with me for one hour." The response in almost all churches is NO!

This collection of links to REAL literature is included in:

Jesus said the Kingdom of God is WITHIN US and WILL NOT come with religious observation or "worship services." The Campbells tried really hard to restore the church as A School of Christ.

[linked image]

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Ken Sublett
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Garbage In Garbage out

March 15 2012, 11:47 AM 

If the command is to FILL UP with the Word of Christ
Then that which overflows is the word of Christ.

I am surprised that Paul in 2 Cor 3 identifies something which can be tested in a Petri Dish.

If you have not converted or baptized INTO Christ you cannot have A holy spirit or A good conscience, consciousness or a co-perception of the Word. God will NOT let you read the word "straight" if you do not diligently seek Him IN HIS WORD.

2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were blinded:
....for until this day remaineth
....the same vail untaken away the reading of the old testament;
....which vail is done away in Christ.

2Cor. 3:15 But even unto this day,
....when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

2Cor. 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, [Baptism]
....the vail shall be taken away. [Receiving A holy spirit]

Now, notice that almost no preacher or scholar can grasp the next verse.

2Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit:
....and where the Spirit of the Lord is,
....there is liberty.

Who is the Holy Spirit?

Of the "another" or different on some respects "Spirit" Jesus said "I" will come to you.

1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
....And if any man sin,
....we have an advocate [Comforter] with the Father,
....Jesus Christ the righteous:

What is the name of the "another Comforter"? Jesus Christ. But the preachers and scholars CANNOT read that: it is impossible for them.

Who has the only authority to command us in faith and practice?

1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,
....but also for the sins of the whole world.
1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him,
....if we keep his commandments.
1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him,
....and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar
....and the truth is not in him.
1John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected:
....hereby know we that we are in him.

2Cor. 3:18 But we all,
.... with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
....are changed into the same image from glory to glory,
....even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

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March 16 2012, 9:05 AM 

Still no response from Donnie (the William "B" Crump move) Interested in lunch after service? I am paying.....

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(no login)

Re: Obtuse?

March 16 2012, 10:04 PM 

Dave should realize that many (perhaps most) of his posts don't merit serious responses.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

from Brian on the Richland Thread

March 16 2012, 12:56 PM 

When one PRAYS it is nice to know WHAT is being prayed.
Hymns are PRAYERS: you can do silent prayer, you can pray OUT LOUD. The prisoners UNDERSTOOD the prayer. The prayer was one of the HYMNS which even children would have learned. Prayers in the Bible most often quote the text.

Hymns never include SINGING or PLAYING.
IF YOU SING a HYMN it takes two words. Sing is not in the text so the CONTENT of their prayers were HYMNS. If you want to tell someone to SING and then define a HYMN as the content it takes two words:

aoids humnos

Humnos means "without the flute" or "without the lyre."

We look for an example and when the writer intends that you SING A SONG he MUST use two words or a compound word:: there is no command, example or remote inference in the Bible that anyone SANG a HYMN. Remember that in Ephesians 5 the command is to SPEAK hymns. No one could accidentally make that SING HYMNS. The word SPEAK as LOGOS excludes poetry or music.

Homer, Odyssey 8:26: and do ye heat for the stranger a cauldron on the fire, and warm water, that when he has bathed and has seen well bestowed all the gifts which the noble Phaeacians have brought hither, he may take pleasure in the feast, and in hearing the strains of the song.

No one ever attributed anything but pleasure to music much like that of eating and drinking wine.

Hesiod Works and Days:
Then I crossed over to Chalcis, to the games of wise Amphidamas where the sons of the great-hearted hero proclaimed and appointed prizes. And there I boast that I gained the victory with a song and carried off a handled tripod which I dedicated to the Muses of Helicon, in the place where they first set me in the way of clear song. [660] Such is all my experience of many-pegged ships; nevertheless I will tell you the will of Zeus who holds the aegis; for the Muses have taught me to sing in marvellous song.

If the writer wanted to ADD a musical instrument the expression is:

Humnoi ho kuris hu. pros kitharan deto [aeido] hesttn
Pro means 6. with the accompaniment of musical instruments, p. kalamon Pi.O.10(11).84; p. aulon or ton aulon, E.Alc.346, X.Smp.6.3, etc.; p. luran . . adein SIG662.13 (Delos, ii B. C.); p. rhuthmon embainein to step in time, D.S.5.34.

It is blaspheming the Spirit OF Christ and the intelligence of Paul to CLAIM that they were so illiterate that they could NOT demand the ACCOMPANIMENT of a harp if they wanted to say that.

The reason Paul puts the singing IN THE HEART is that EXTERNAL singing among the pagans who INCLUDED instruments sang like the modern "Praise Teams" just making "Jerky" and falsetto sounds:

Aeido of all kinds of vocal sounds, crow as cocks hoot as owls, croak as frogs, the Locust, twang, of the bow-string, whistle, of the wind through a tree, ring, of a stone when struck, to crow too soon.

When you want to SING to the LYRE the evidence is aeido pros [with the accompaniment of] aulone [flute] luran [harp] sing to a harp. That is, you match your voice to the sound of a single string twang.

The decent people never beat on the strings WHILE they were SPEAKING.

There is no such language in the Bible. These people are enemies of Christ and His Word which is FREE (Isaiah 55) and they are outlawed from SPEAKING THEIR OWN WORDS (Isaiah 58).

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Mar 16, 2012 1:00 PM

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Ken Sublett
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Re: from Brian on the Richland Thread

March 16 2012, 9:49 PM 

Bump for response to "B" above

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Re: from Brian on the Richland Thread

March 17 2012, 2:23 AM 

By definition, a hymn is sung.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Not so

March 17 2012, 11:39 AM 

A hymn is a prayer: you can read it silently, you can speak it audibly but if you SING a HYMN it takes both the word sing AND HYMN.

If you sing a hymn and play the instrument is always specified

A psalm is a song: a song is
A poetic piece

Accommpanied by the VOICE as the first "instrument of choice."
Accompanied by a har pr other musical instrument.

Jesus and the apostles DICO the hymn and then WENT OUT.
If you open the service with a HYMN the pattern is you must get up and go out.

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Re: Not so

March 18 2012, 7:36 AM 

Really? When the last time you took Paul's cloak to Troas?

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Speaking versus Singing

March 18 2012, 6:39 PM 

I don't sing A HYMN, therefore, I don't have to GO OUT. happy.gif
It is a fact that those waged as a "located missionary" most often deny the CENI we learned in Card Class.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth

That doesn't leave ANY for the preachers: I just listened to a sermon on the computer: it was about
2Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land

And the rest of it was defending the Second Great American Awakening which was an outbreak of witchcraft.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Singing is spelled SINGING


Speaking is safe: singing will destroy your vocal cords: ask me.

"speaking employes gliding vowels....transistions from one to the next. Singing is phrased such that vowels are held longer (to the note) which more or less erases regional accents. In singing, vowels tend to sound more like their true sounds (monophthongs), rather than diphthongs.

From the National Center for Voice and Speech:

How come when people with a strong regional accent (i.e., Southern) or stuttering problem don't manifest it when they sing?
When people speak with an accent, they produce the vowel sounds differently than the person identifying them as having an accent. When singing, the vowels are prolonged and those differences are minimized.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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