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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Trinity Not Taught in the Old Testament (and Not in the New Testament)

April 11 2012, 11:09 PM 

Statistics from the Old Testament [KJV]:
  • "spirit" --------------------- = 244 times
  • "spirit of" ------------------ = 86 times:
    • spirit of = ...man...princes...Jacob...Pul...Cyrus...Tilgath...Egypt
    • spirit of = ...knowledge...wisdom...jealousy...judgment...deep sleep
    • spirit of = ...grace...heaviness...whoredoms
    • spirit of = ...the gods...the holy gods...the kings...the living creature
    • spirit of = ...the beast...the ruler
  • "holy ghost" ----------------- = 0 times
  • "spirit of God" -------------- = 14 times
  • "spirit of the Lord" --------- = 26 times
  • "holy spirit" ---------------- = 3 times
Brian, I knew/know that you believe "that God existed as three persons from eternity." That's why I wanted you to prove it from the Old Testament. However, you were not able to prove it on both counts: (1) explicity and (2) implicitly.

The Old Testament teachings regarding "the spirit of the Lord God" match those from the New Testament [which we are going to study more later on].

The word "spirit" is an improper or a common noun that is not a being nor a separate being from another being. Rather, the word "spirit" or the expression "holy spirit" is an entity that belongs to or in the possession of a living being, in this case: the Father or the Son.

The O.T. expressions:
  • ----- "spirit OF God" (14 times);
  • ----- "spirit of the Lord (26 times);
  • ----- "holy spirit" (3 times) ...
... are used properly and grammatically correctly in both the Old and New Testaments. The preposition "OF" indicates in possession of or as belonging to the Lord God. Please NOTE, Brian, that the expression "holy spirit" in Psalms and Isaiah is used in conjunction with the personal pronoun:
  • "thy" [the form of the possessive case of the personal pronoun "you"]; therefore: "thy [your] holy spirit"; or
  • "his" [belonging or pertaining to "him"]; therefore, "his holy spirit."
"Thy holy spirit" simply means the spirit that is holy [the adjective "holy" modifies the common noun "spirit"] and it [the spirit that is holy] belongs to the Lord God -- not to Brian, not to Donnie.

There is no justification for identifying "the spirit" as the Lord God. Listen to these expressions, Brian:
  • (1) If "the spirit" is God, then, "the spirit of God" would mean "God of God."
  • (2) If "the spirit" is God, then, "the spirit of the Lord" would mean "God of the Lord."
  • (3) If "the spirit" is God, then, "the spirit of Jesus Christ" would mean "God of Jesus Christ."
No, I'm not with you so far. There's a lot missing or lacking in your "progressive" [pun intended] history of the Trinity dogma.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
66.230.87.239

Re: Trinity Not Taught in the Old Testament (and Not in the New Testament)

April 12 2012, 2:45 AM 

I'm just getting started. Let me rephrase - do you understand my reasoning so far? My intent is to lay this out in small chunks.
If you ask me why I believe something, I'm going to lay it out for you. In return, I expect a fair hearing.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Trinity Not Taught in the Old Testament (and Not in the New Testament)

April 12 2012, 11:46 PM 

Brian,

You are getting started alright. So, let's just say then that so far you have delivered only your introduction to the study of your Trinity doctrine? Here's what you said:
.
Yes, I believe that God existed as three persons from eternity. That said, the doctrine is not explicitly stated in the Old Testament writings. What we see, however, when we take the Bible as a whole, is that the doctrine of the Trinity is progressively revealed throughout the period of history recorded in the Bible
With me so far?
You're not known to me as someone who explains matters in detail. So, I took your short paragraph as your complete answer. And I did not see any evidence or fact to validate your assertion. Your belief concerning the Trinity is only premise, an assertion, with which I disagree.

You can expect a fair hearing. And if you're just getting started, then, get started with biblical references to the man-made, Catholic-based Trinity creed. I'm purposely dealing with what the Old Testament [at this time], in particular, teaches regarding the Trinity.

I am waiting....

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.66.43

One of the INVENTORS or Trinity and Thomas Campbell

April 11 2012, 10:18 PM 

Tertullian an inventer of "trinity" which the Nicean Creed did not change

http://www.piney.com/HsTertTrinity.html

Thomas Campbell on the Trinity

http://www.piney.com/HsACTrin.html

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Apr 12, 2012 2:07 AM


 
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Anonymous
(no login)
66.230.87.239

Re: One of the INVENTORS or Trinity and Thomas Campbell

April 12 2012, 9:27 PM 

The original post said the doctrine of the Trinity was invented by the church of Christ. Just sayin'...

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.70.193

Not so

April 12 2012, 10:15 PM 

We've just GOT to get you a remedial reading class along with all of the "scholars"

Ken Said: Seeing God as three "persons" each with their "centers of consciousness" and each given their own dispensation was invented by H. Leo Boles of David Lipscomb College (LU) and promoted by the Gospel Advocate and therefore the dogma of many churches of Christ.

There is NO classical trinitarian who ever went so far into heresy. The First Nicean Creed spoke the truth:

There is one God
And there is one Lord

And as an after thought "OH, and we believe in the Holy Spirit"
If anyone had mouthed the Nashville Creed I am pretty certain that they would have been burned with dry wood.

 
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Anonymous
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.64.208

Re: Nashville School of Preaching and the Holy Spirit

April 12 2012, 6:22 PM 

"And God said , Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:" - Genesis 1:26

When Jim says, Let US be going, Jim is not triplets. Jesus warned about parables from the foundation of the world to FOOL the clergy who made up their own songs and sermons (matt 13) SO THAT they didn't have to obey the command, example and inference that Word of Christ is intended to be PREACHED by being READ. The elder in the synagogue STOOD OVER the young reader to make certain that he did not change one word or add "I think" which would be an oxymoron.

Therefore, we FLASHED with no expectation that it will be caught that God uses instrumental means to carry out His will wind (spirit) and fire: those are the two major agents in turning huge mountains into flat plains.

Those just grap lexicons or the list followed by all of the non-thinkers are CERTAIN to use GEnesis 1:26 to prove that the TRINITY was present: In the words of John Mark Hicks "three centers of consciousness" and others "each with their skills and according to Boles ranked 1, 2, 3.

Here are a few more statememts by the Spirit OF Christ who warns about the "lying pen of the Scribes" who keep books for the Jacob-Cursed tribe of Levi.

[linked image]

Never get caught lying by CHRIST who defined the future reign of Messiah in His church both inclusively and exclusively.

Isn't it blasphemy to have the Spirit of Christ make such absolute statements only to leave the "US" word to give theologians the authority to tell Christ that HE did not REALLY know what He was talking about. What He did NOT know is the "ONE GOD" really means THREE PERSONS (people) all united in a friendly sense. They say that Christ was not smart enough to say what He meant.

 
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Anonymous
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.64.208

Psalm 18

April 12 2012, 6:39 PM 

[linked image]

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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