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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: What Is the Pattern to Follow?

May 31 2012, 5:15 AM 

Anon,

You seem to be the only one recycling the same question. With as many as 250+ messages that have been posted, it is apparent that you do not agree with any of them. [I'm reminded of a story about one religious group singing, "Will there be any stars in my crown"; and the other neighboring church responding in song: "NO, NOT ONE."]

Now, we can't help you with that.

We've defined the expression "pattern."

We've considered the term "the pattern" too broad and attempted to clarify and be more specific by appending the word "for"; thus, e.g.:

-- What is the pattern for church organization?
-- What is the pattern for church leadership?
-- What is God's design or process of conversion?
-- What is the pattern for the observance of the Lord's Supper?

You've been asked if you wanted each or any of the above discussed in more detail? No response from you!!!

Anon, the question of "what is the pattern for ______" essentially means "how." I do not see why you object so much to the New Testament being our guide?

-- Would you prefer the Quran as our guide?
-- The Book of Mormon?
-- The early writings of Ellen G. White?
-- The change agents and their anti-church of Christ stances?
-- "Let your conscience be your guide"?

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.243.57

Re: What Is the Pattern to Follow?

May 31 2012, 10:28 AM 

It's been stated that the answers to "What is the pattern for thus and so?" are found in the teachings of Christ and His apostles in the New Testament. Yet Anon keeps saying that no one can tell him what "the pattern" for anything is. It sounds like Anon either is not satisfied with Christ's teachings after having read the New Testament and wants something more; OR Anon has refused to study the New Testament at all. As I recall, Anon hasn't mentioned anything about that, one way or another. He has neither said, "I just don't understand Christ's teachings and want help," nor has he said, "I don't believe Christ's teachings." Anon just keeps saying that no one can show him "the pattern" (to his satisfaction).

When a person gives the appearance of wanting answers, all of which point to finding them in the New Testament, yet that person rejects those answers every time, it's as if that person is saying, "Don't mention the New Testament to me! Can't you steer me to something MORE substantial than that?"

So what is Anon's angle anyway?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.76.17

Re: What Is the Pattern to Follow?

May 31 2012, 1:23 PM 

Brian Cade and Al Maxey REALLY need a CHANGE AGENT. My older sister is one: she uses the DISPOSABLE kind on her much older husband.

He acts like an idiot and deserves an Oscar. I finally found a picture of Brian:

[linked image]


 
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Anonymous
(no login)
216.67.48.38

Re: What Is the Pattern to Follow?

June 1 2012, 4:33 AM 

You are pathetic.

 
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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)
72.209.196.118

pattern

June 1 2012, 5:45 PM 


The matter here is that some don't accept the statement that all that pertains to life and godliness is found in the scriptures. The holy spirit made that fundamental assertion of truth, not Campbell. What tells on the change agents is that they then seek the advice of men with their recycled traditions from other religious groups and propaganda about the history of the restoration movement. We are to make followers of Christ not merely entertain folks, we don't "do church" we worship in spirit and truth, we are to love God with all of our being and not be mere minions of mind control.

We are to teach the elect to not love the world or things in the world - we should not worship or serve the thinking of men.

Comments Welcome

 
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Royce
(no login)
66.230.82.165

Re: pattern

June 7 2012, 4:02 AM 

Today I did a Google search for this term, What is the Church of Christ pattern? The search returned 905,000 hits. In most every case, the churches and individuals that came up in my sampling insist that the New Testament provides a pattern for worship which must be followed.
Interestingly, I could not find many who stated what the pattern is. Those in my sample who did define it included pattern components different from each other. Many patternists teach that the pattern extends far beyond worship, and their pattern is more elusive than the first.
No agreement as to definition
One Church of Christ insists that the five acts of worship (singing, praying, preaching, giving, and the Lords Supper) are the pattern. So they will quote verses that support those five things. Another Church of Christ will add baptism for the remission of sins and singing only a cappella to the pattern of the one true church. Still another adds to the pattern a requirement that only the King James Version of the Bible be used in public readings. The width and breadth of the supposed pattern is limited only by the number of people who define it.

The problem with patternism is the pattern. If what devout patternists proclaim is true, wouldnt it make sense that it would be relatively easy to find in the Bible? I am well aware of many of the proof texts but I must ask, Is everyone reading the same Bible?

What about those earliest Christians who, for perhaps two generations, got along quite well before many of the proof texts were written, and for sure before they were widely distributed? Were those early believers not able to worship God acceptably?



When patternism becomes sin



The title of this article is rather strong indictment. Tell me Im wrong. At least one book has been written, plus scores of articles in periodicals and on blogs, condemning North Richland Hills Church of Christ in Texas, for its decision to include instrumental music in one of many Sunday services.

The attitude of those passing judgment is simple: Forget all the Christian service this church provides in its community, forget its faithfulness to preach Christ, to baptize believers and to live holy, loving lives. No Sir! These Christians went outside the supposed pattern and are damned because of it.

It is one thing to decided what is permissible individually or for my congregation, but when I apply that standard to every other Christian, and then teach that they will be lost if they do not comply, I am guilty of teaching another gospel and commit a grievous sin.

I recently listed over 40 different issues about which some Churches of Christ have divided, refused to acknowledge each other as brothers, and condemned each other to hell-fire. In each case, one group insists the other violated the pattern. In each case, the folks condemning have concluded that what the other people are doing is unauthorized, which puts them in open rebellion against God and means they are lost.

When this happens, Patternism becomes a template for sin! Those who design the template require everyone who claims to follow Jesus to fit their exact template or be lost. In Jesus day, the patternists were called Pharisees. Among some Churches of Christ today, they are called elders and preachers, but they are cut from the same cloth.

Yes, there is one pattern we should apply to our lives as believers. His name is Jesus.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.62.103

Re: pattern

June 7 2012, 7:50 AM 

Royce wrote: "Yes, there is one pattern we should apply to our lives as believers. His name is Jesus."

That is true but it is a bit incomplete. The statement should say, "Yes, there is one pattern we should apply to our lives as believers, and that pattern is the teachings of Jesus and His apostles as written in the New Testament."

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.132.236

Re: pattern

June 7 2012, 11:52 AM 

Jesus submitted Himself to the Musical Mocking by the Jacob-cursed Levites as well prophesied in Psalm 41.

Jesus didn't have a place to lay his head at night.

Therefore, Royce (Brian) is DUTY BOUND to get himself nailed on a cross.

None of the progressives can read the Word.

Paul used the word KNOW
They substitute the word PREACH.

Therefore, they are terminal liars if they do not get up this sunday and tell the story about Jesus being Crucified, sit down, and set up a repayment play to repay all of the widow's living and loss of church family because someone had "A" spirit tell him to IMPOSE the same curse Jacob pronounced on the Levites.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.132.236

Re: pattern

June 7 2012, 12:24 PM 

The Vineyard, the New Wineskins and proven by the erotic praise songs, is that they really want to KNOW God in a sexual way. That is why they try to stimulate one another with voice and body manipulation. The climatic experience they say is experiencing God personally.

When Adam KNEW Eve the Word is:

co-gnosco I. To become thoroughly acquainted with (by the senses or mentally), to learn by inquiring, to examine, investigate, perceive, see, understand, learn;
B. Mentally, to become acquainted with, learn, recognize, know:
II. To recognize that which is already known, acknowledge, identify
III. With the access. idea of individual exertion (cf. Gr. gignsk), to seek or strive to know something, to inquire into, to investigate, examine


Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

However, in the sense of corrupting the Word or "selling learning at retail" is also adultery.

euphem of sexual intercourse, Ov. H. 6, 133 aliquam adulterio

The religious world is in utter contempt of "musical worship teams" whose PERSONA is bi-sexual or they would NEVER have been selected by the feminine half of the flock.

Brian cannot even FIND an end-time preacher who does not KNOW HIMSELF rather than just seeking to know WHAT Jesus taught without trying to invent dogma to make the "experience" more climatic.

The New Wineskins and your new "praise song book from Howard" is a Vineyard THRUST.

http://www.piney.com/VineyardIntimacy.html





 
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Anonymous
(no login)
216.67.56.224

Re: pattern

June 15 2012, 3:22 AM 

None of the progressives can read the Word
Neither can you, apparently.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.135.175

Re: pattern

June 15 2012, 11:32 AM 

That's True: that's why Jesus taught me to "Copy and Paste."

Try it: you will like it.

 
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harry
(Login wordkeeper)
96.29.245.221

Re: What Is the Pattern to Follow?

June 14 2012, 8:01 PM 

I have not read all 268 responses to this post so I apologize if the following point has already been mentioned: doesn't a pattern have to have at least two occurances? If something is mentioned as happening only once can we call that a pattern?

Specifically, the followers of Christ in a community took up a collection on the first day of the week. That is mentioned only once in the New Testament. Did the author mean for it to be a pattern or just a statement of fact of what happened on one day in the first century church?

I can understand baptism by immersion because it is mentioned at least a dozen times in the NT. But, my question is if something happened once is it sufficient to label it a pattern?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.83.186

Re: What Is the Pattern to Follow?

June 14 2012, 9:33 PM 

If it is a PATTERN it absolutely limits the collection to be handcarried to the elders to care for the destitute at the time Paul submitted a chance for people to give. He had not commanded them but some had volunteered--a year ago.

The command to Lay by HIM means from most recorded history is that Jim lays by Jim in storage. The first day of the week was their first workday. They could take part of that first day's wage and put it in his own safe keeping.

Then when Paul's agents came everyone would bring in their own collections so that it could be put together and it would be sent to Judea with a bunch of hands making sure that it wasn't pilfered. It did not belong to the receiving elders but was dedicated to the famine which was by now--a year later--less severe.

Paul said that it was NOT a command and he wanted the total monies collected before he arrived. He worried that this might amount to extortion.

In church history the practice was continued "but only if one was willing" and it was still dedicated to the poor or traveler.

With Paul, it seems that the individuals from previous stops supported him and he did not charge for the gospel to separate himself from those looking for a job.

Because of real slick tricks--two played on me--I would never give to the "treasurer" where the "leaders" insist that I have no more control. That means that they can get their property paid for by "gifts to the lord" and then divert the monies into becoming a different "denomination." I'm not sure that in these latter days that I would give to "tower builders" and "staff collectors."

Only those who were given free food-producing farms, flocks, houses, orchards were to tithe ONCE a year.

And Jesus paid the "temple tax" and sons of a king don't pay religious taxes. Once upon a time you could really trust people. Really sad.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: What Is the Pattern to Follow?

June 15 2012, 12:41 AM 

Harry,

That's a good and fair question.

"Pattern" by definition is a design or plan. As in a "blueprint" for a house or a 75-story building. There may be duplicate copies of the same/original blueprint to be used; nonetheless, it is one final blueprint.

It does not have to be a number of occurrences for it to be a pattern. The number of times baptism is mentioned in the New Testament is not the reason for it becoming a pattern. Actually, the conversion process is a pattern -- it is God's plan of salvation described in the New Testament -- and baptism is a part of that pattern, the conversion process.

There is, however, a mode of baptism. We can scripturally conclude that baptism is by IMMERSION. As you said, it is by immersion -- that is correct. Expressions as in "coming up out of the water" prove that point -- the point that it is the only mode of baptism -- and that excludes sprinkling and pouring.

Therefore, God's plan of salvation, the conversion process in accordance with New Testament specifications, is a pattern; and one final part of that pattern is being buried with Christ in baptism for [in order to, so that, toward, unto] the remission of sins and being resurrected with Christ to begin newness of life as a Christian. (Faith or believing in Christ as the Son of God does not forgive sins as it is only the beginning step of the entire conversion process. Simply, forgiveness of sins DOES NOT OCCUR PRIOR to being buried with Christ in baptism. Sorry, change agents who modify and degrade the significance and purpose of baptism ... just to get along with others and their creeds.)

In the case of the "collection for the saints," the Scripture reveals to me is that it is NOT tithing (forced giving by percentages per the O.T. Levitical requirements). Rather, it is liberal giving (I Cor. 16:3) "as God hath prospered him" (v. 2). "Upon the first day of the week" suggests that it was when the saints regularly assembled. Of course, the saints should be able to contribute at any time. But during that time, the first day of the week of the assembly, it was convenient and efficient to do the collection "that there be no gatherings when I come" (v. 2). The important message here is that it is about liberal giving as God has prospered and that it is a collection "for the saints." That was the instruction (an example for Christians today) "to the churches in Galatia" (v. 1) and "them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem" (v. 3) -- NOT as wages for the professional services of "the Worship Leader" or of "Christian" musical concerts. OK, I did not say "pattern" -- I did simply say liberal giving -- a collection "for the saints."

So, there is the pattern of conversion: God's plan of salvation. The New Testament clearly specifies the steps [the change agents detest "the steps" ... I know] scripturally -- clearly in a logical and chronological manner that one outside of Christ can understand and follow, without the distortions coming from the change agents and denominational creeds.

There is also the pattern for the church -- its structure with Christ as its foundation and builder. The New Testament's specifications are clear.

There is also the pattern for church leadership per the New Testament layout. Again, the New Testament specifications are clear and simple.

All else, consult the New Testament for SPECIFIC directives and commands.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
216.67.56.224

Re: What Is the Pattern to Follow?

June 15 2012, 3:10 AM 

Donnie,
"Baptism" is a transliteration of "baptizo" meaning "to immerse". There's no such thing as "baptism" by "sprinkling", etc. That's a logical and linguistic inconsistency, forming what is known in formal debate as a
"straw man" argument. You really need to learn what you are talking about.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: What Is the Pattern to Follow?

June 15 2012, 5:03 AM 

Brian,

You should know by now that our messages are directed: (a) not only to the apostatizing change agents and their followers (b) but also to those who adhere to human creeds, such as those religious groups that practice "sprinkling" or "pouring" instead of "immersing." It appears now that you weren't even aware of such practices by others.

(a) To the apostates or apostatizers and their followers, the issue regarding baptism is not what it literally means -- "to baptize" is "to immerse" -- and that is a given. The issue with the change agents, generally, is their modified doctrine that it's not about God's intended purpose, i.e., ["eis"] in order to have sins forgiven. They're essentially teaching, as the Baptists are, that sins are forgiven PRIOR TO immersion and that baptism (immersion) is only symbolic or a ritual.

(b) To certain denominations that practice sprinkling or pouring, the issue begins with the mode of baptism. Tell them the transliteration of "baptizo" being "to immerse" -- they will not comprehend you. You will still have to try to prove by necessary inference [I know, you HATE the C.E.N.I. principle] that "coming up out of the water" clearly illustrates and makes it conclusive that those who were baptized were immersed.

 
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This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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