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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

The New Testament Is THE PATTERN

April 16 2012, 6:42 PM 

Brian,

How many times does it have to be explained to you that the New Testament is THE PATTERN or the GUIDE?

"Pattern" is defined as:

-- [n] a model considered worthy of imitation;
-- [n] something regarded as a normative example;
-- [n] something intended as a guide;
-- other synonyms: blueprint, design, form, formula, diagram.

The "particulars" that you are looking for are contained in the New Testament, THE PATTERN.

I have given you a few examples of these particulars. So, I'll briefly explain them to you -- again:

Particular -- Baptism: The conversion process that one who is outside of Christ goes through includes baptism, besides hearing the truth, believing in the Son of God, repentance. Forgiveness of sins does not occur prior to baptism as one is BURIED with Christ in BAPTISM and is RISEN with Him to begin newness of life (Acts 2:37,38; Romans 6:4; etc.). The Greek translation of "eis" (or unto, into, in order that, so that) clarifies the question if forgiveness of sins occurs prior to baptism. The correct context is that after belief and repentance, one is baptized so that or in order that his sins be remitted in the blood of the Lamb. That demolishes man's pattern that one is saved prior to baptism.

Particular -- Office of Elder: The church does not create its own organization as the Roman Catholic Church has done progressively with its hierarchy -- the "infallible" POPE, the cardinals, archbishops, etc. The qualifications of the office of an elder are listed in I Timothy 5; Titus 1; etc.

Particular -- Christian Living: After one has been converted to Christ (after baptism) and as a member of the body of Christ (His church), he is to love God and neighbor; do good works as "faith without works is DEAD" (James 2:17,24; Matt. 5:16; Titus 2:7,14; II Tim. 3:17; etc.; to remain faithful (Rev. 2:10). This demolishes man's opinion that God's grace [often misused and abused] covers it all -- and there's nothing to worry about: backslide, etc.

I think I have repeated these particulars a few times already. Have you even read them?

In essence, the church does not resort to other sources (man's philosophy, books on psychology and psychoanalysis, the Koran, religious magazines, denominational creeds, etc) for any pattern or guide. The New Testament is THE PATTERN for the New Testament Church and for New Testament Christianity.

If you're thinking of other "particulars" that you would like discussed, please identify them, and we'll try to show you from the right and only source -- the New Testament, again, THE PATTERN that is all that we need.


P.S.: Sorry, if I was under the assumption that you were familiar with teachings in the church of Christ and that you were familiar with the Restoration Movement principles. It appears that you are not.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.8.120

Re: The New Testament Is THE PATTERN

April 16 2012, 7:03 PM 

I'll give you my impression: Brian does know the teachings of the church of Christ, which are the teachings of the New Testament--the pattern--but he wants a detailed description of the pattern so he can argue about it, or possibly even deny it. We keep telling him to read and study the New Testament, yet that seems to turn him off; instead, he demands that we "tell" him the pattern.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: The New Testament Is THE PATTERN

April 16 2012, 9:55 PM 

B,

I was giving Brian the benefit of being able to explain his stance. He could very well say he is a member of the church of Christ and is familiar with the history of the Restoration Movement and its principles. But, to qualify that further by stating that he is in reality affiliated with the neo-church of Christ {as restructured by the change agents).

We can trace this attitude from when Brian was endlessly attacking Ken Sublett for exposing musical idolatry and other performances now practiced in a few congregations that have strayed away from the truth, not realizing that Ken is the closest among us, based on his study and research, to providing facts that biblical history has already recorded. Ken is here with us to research in great depth what our Restoration Movement forefathers have just scratched the surface -- thanks to the WWW!!!! that wasn't available at the time.

I was just waiting for Brian to state that baptism is only a symbol or a ritual -- and not really a requirement; that as Max Lucado (a pro- or former Baptist minister) would say: "accept Christ as your personal Savior" and you are saved [your sins are forgiven] right then, and "be baptized" later on just to perform the ritual.

I can go on with other teachings to which the change agents now adhere -- which are contrary to those found in the New Testament. (I am using baptism here as one example.)

It is the change agents that have questioned "the pattern," actually meaning that they want to go beyond what the New Testament teaches.

Brian has probably encountered for the first time the amount of time and effort we have expended on this site to expose "The Acts of the Change Agents" -- not to be confused with the N.T. book, "The Acts of the Apostles?." Didn't know they were in real existence operating in the brotherhood, aiming to restructure the church of Christ, modifying its teachings, rewriting the history of the Restoration Movement, Brian?

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
216.67.41.185

Re: The New Testament Is THE PATTERN

April 17 2012, 4:59 PM 

You assume too much. You've never asked me what my belief on baptism is, and for purposes of this discussion, my belief on baptism is irrelevant. We're discussing the pattern a Christian is to follow. You tell me that the New Testament is the pattern I'm supposed to follow, but that doesn't make any sense because there is at least one command in the New Testament that is impossible to follow (2 Timothy 4:13). Further, when I ask for clarification, you act like its an imposition. Do you really understand what you're doing?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: The New Testament Is THE PATTERN

April 17 2012, 6:12 PM 

Brian,

When I assume and the assumption is incorrect, shouldn't that be enough for you to be responsible for making the correction? I have used the word "assume" as a preface or an invitation for you to speak your mind.

I've mentioned the word "baptism" in so many different ways to give you all the chances to agree or rebut. Why haven't you done either one -- agree or rebut?

What have I heard from you? NOTHING!!! So, is that supposed to mean that you agree on baptism?

Now, you are asserting that your belief on baptism is irrelevant??? It certainly is irrelevant. It is you claiming to be trying to know more or to understand better "the pattern." Baptism is a very significant part of the conversion process. And the process or plan is explained in the New Testament.

Your quote of II Tim. 4:13 is ludicrous in defense against the New Testament as the pattern -- not any less than quoting a preceding verse: "Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry."

Try again.

It is becoming more and more apparent that your alignment is with the change agents -- perhaps unbeknownst to you at first -- until you discovered this website and other conservative websites. You are not ignorant or dumb. You just do not question the objectives and goals of the change agents who argue that there is no pattern for the church; that there is no pattern for conversion; that there is no pattern for Christian living.

Again, Brian, the New Testament is the answer to your and any other doubter's questions.

Surely, "Take Mark, and bring him with thee." (II Tim. 4:11)

Surely, "The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments." (II Tim. 4:13)

I still believe you are not ignorant nor dumb. Just ... um ....

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.242.182

Re: The New Testament Is THE PATTERN

April 17 2012, 6:37 PM 

Neither ignorant nor dumb, just...deliberately obtuse.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
174.252.191.94

Re: The New Testament Is THE PATTERN

April 17 2012, 7:31 PM 

I think he is a frozen ATM machine!

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.242.182

Re: The New Testament Is THE PATTERN

April 17 2012, 8:26 PM 

Surely...Brian is not telling us that he can't distinguish between New Testament passages that narrate chronological events or biographical sketches vs. those passages that reveal the explicit teachings of Christ and the apostles.

If Brian fixates on 2 Tim 4.13 as his prime example why the New Testament cannot be the pattern to follow, then he really is deliberately trying to be obtuse for the sake of perpetuating ludicrous arguments.

Nevertheless, it is rather interesting to see how low the change agents will stoop to mock the New Testament.


 
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Anonymous
(no login)
66.230.80.122

Re: The New Testament Is THE PATTERN

April 18 2012, 3:36 AM 

How do you come to the conclusion that anyone was mocking the New Testament?

 
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Great Baptizmo
(no login)
65.19.254.58

Re: The New Testament Is THE PATTERN

April 18 2012, 9:13 AM 

The New Testament isn't a "pattern." It is instruction for followers of Christ that must be read carefully.

5 steppers operate on the principle of eisegesis of the text in order to PROVE what they have been taught by their DENOMINATIONAL "non-denominational" brotherhood.

The 5 steps of salvation and the asinine instrumental issue are not found in God's Word.

=======================

Original "Your Name": "The Crumptastic Great Baptizmo"

Edited only the "Name" -- too long for the forum's page editor.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Apr 22, 2012 1:07 AM


 
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B
(no login)
74.179.12.52

Re: The New Testament Is THE PATTERN

April 18 2012, 12:44 PM 

A college student enrolled in a particular course, took copious notes from the professor's lectures, and read his textbook. At the end of the course, the professor gave an examination, for which the student felt that he was well prepared. The student assumed that the exam would be nothing more than a simple regurgitation of facts to run-of-the-mill questions.

But the exam questions required the student to list various characteristics, properties, and traits about items in the course. This took the student by surprise, because the professor had never given any explicit lists in the lectures, nor were there any lists in the textbook. The student was at a loss about how to answer the questions correctly and therefore received a poor grade on the exam.

The student felt that the exam was unfair, and he complained to the professor about his poor grade.

"What's the idea of making up an exam with LISTS anyhow?" raged the student. "You never mentioned one word about LISTS in your lectures, and there are no LISTS in my textbook! Your exam is unfair and did not cover the material in your lectures!"

"Upon what basis do you claim that the exam didn't cover the lecture material?" replied the professor. "Everything on those exam lists can be found either in my lecture notes or from the material in the textbook. The lists tested to see how well you could assimilate the material and summarize it neatly. Evidently you didn't know the material well enough. You should have studied more diligently."

The student stomped out of the professor's office and thumbed through his notes and book again and compared them with the exam questions. Sure enough, although there had been no lists in either source, the answers to the exam were staring him in the face. The student just hadn't taken the time to assimilate the material well enough.

Some people react similarly to Jesus' requirements for salvation. They reason that since there is no explicit "1-2-3 list" in the New Testament about what Jesus requires for salvation, then it is wrong for man to make any kind of "list." Yet throughout the New Testament, Jesus and His apostles have issued explicit requirements for salvation. Those people who diligently study the teachings of Jesus and His apostles will become familiar enough with those requirements such that they can neatly summarize them in a list for easy reference. Yet other people in rebellion against Jesus will scoff at such a list and denounce it as "man-made."

To the scoffers, remember these bits of information: The terms "Bible" and "Holy Bible" are also "man-made." God never uses those terms at all in His written Word, yet the Christian world readily accepts them. Dividing the Bible into chapters and verses is also "man-made." God did not do that, yet the Christian world readily accepts that as well. The point is that there is nothing wrong with calling God's Word "Bible/Holy Bible," nor is there anything wrong with dividing the Bible into chapters and verses. Doing the latter makes it much easier to refer to the Bible's contents. Likewise, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making a list of Christ's and His apostles' teachings about what is required for salvation. Such a list only makes it easier for people to know how to be saved.

--From "Christ's Requirements for Salvation," by Dr. Bill Crump


 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
216.67.47.220

Re: The New Testament Is THE PATTERN

April 18 2012, 6:58 PM 

Interesting parable. What it boils down to is "Read the New Testament and figure it out." Bogus.

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
66.230.81.234

Re: The New Testament Is THE PATTERN

April 18 2012, 2:11 PM 

My point being that, if there is a pattern to follow, there's got to be more to it than "Read the New Testament and figure it out." God not being the author of confusion, one would hope that such a pattern is simple and could be easily explained. I can understand Acts 2:38 just fine; but what is the follow-up to that? Life goes on after conversion.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.8.25

Re: The New Testament Is THE PATTERN

April 18 2012, 4:51 PM 

You seem to imply that the New Testament is too difficult to understand, given that the KJV, for example, was written at the fifth grade level.

You also seem to be looking for other "sources" beyond the New Testament for learning how to be converted and live the Christian life.

Since you know that God is not the Author of confusion, you should also know this: "But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Heb. 11:6 KJV).

And where is the FIRST AND ONLY place to go to learn about what God requires to become a Christian and remain a Christian? The answer, of course, is the New Testament. That answer is so simple that many people scoff at it and say, "There's got to be more to it than 'Read the New Testament and figure it out.'"


 
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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)
72.209.196.118

the pattern

April 18 2012, 4:36 PM 


Galatians 5 declares the fruit of the Spirit - a pattern in life that all of us are to strive for.

Colossians 3 says that we are to conform to the image of Christ -is that not a pattern to strive for? It also says to do all word and deed in the name of Christ - doesn't that make Christ the pattern?

It seems to me hat the pattern issue comes from a mindset that is trying to enforce the values and judgements of society. Should the Church accommodate culture? I think not. In the Bible its the other way around. The values and pattern in the scripture is to be conformed to by humans. In Luke 9 we are taught that we are to take up our cross and lose our own life. Its not mans will and pleasure that counts but Gods will that is the pattern.

Judges 17/18 tells a sad story of one Micah who tried to have "religion" both ways - that of truth and that of idols. Ridiculous and corrupt behavior are identified in the book along with the comment "there was no king in Israel" and "every man did what was right in his own eyes" Is this not a similar situation today if we insist that there is no pattern and everyone can worship and live before God in whatever way he wants?

In Proverbs 1 it says that those who hate knowledge and do not choose the fear of God will bear the fruit of their own decisions. The same chapter says those who listen to God will be safe. This seems very plain to me.

comments welcome

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
174.252.182.94

Re: the pattern

April 18 2012, 10:22 PM 

Good thought: the pattern is Jesus Christ in his humble humanity.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, {the Jews]
he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

God's predestinated pattern is Jesus Christ and when you set forth musical or theatrical performers they will automatically be conformed or repulsed by them

 
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Jason Snyder
(Login JasonSnyder)
207.157.10.2

I have the pattern!!

April 18 2012, 7:21 PM 

I have the pattern!!!

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
174.252.182.94

Re: I have the pattern!!

April 18 2012, 10:19 PM 

Spread it out: I bet that it is the pattern for a tutu?

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
66.230.83.27

Re: I have the pattern!!

April 19 2012, 2:46 AM 

Can you list each of the particulars of this pattern, and specify the parameters of it? If faithfulness to God consists of following a pattern contained in the NT writings, then it behooves us to know exactly what that pattern is.

 
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Tom Brite
(no login)
69.91.123.95

Re: I have the pattern!!

April 19 2012, 8:07 AM 

After reading this thread, I am reminded of the quote by Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, who when deciding a case involving hard core pornography in the 1960's stated that he could not define it, but "I know it when I see it." I think that is why many who advocate for a pattern are unwilling to state what the pattern is, other than to state that "it is the New Testament." One need only look at the divisions among those who advocate for pattern theology, people who are sincerely seeking the pattern of the New Testament, to see just where this leads. Countless divisions can be seen among these seekers with everything from class rooms, kitchens, gymnasiums (family life centers), number of cups for communion, style of worship, etc. I would state that most are true sincere seekers, but are led in different directions and to different conclusions by the same pattern. Thus, the question arises of why does this pattern, honestly followed by believers, lead to different destinations? And why do those who reach one conclusion, feel compelled to belittle those who reach a different conclusion than themselves? It is a simplistic mind that would argue that they are the only ones to follow the pattern correctly and yet be able to state just what the pattern is. The fear among them is that the true result of their "following the pattern" would be exposed for what it really is, that they themselves have no clue what the pattern is, even though they feel that they "know it when they see it."

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

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This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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