| Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
174.254.113.34 | Re: I have the pattern!! | April 19 2012, 3:35 PM |
A Progressive Church of Christ takes the legalistic, sectarian, hypocritical PATTERN and then ADDS Ruffles and Flourishes and praise teams wearing ruffles and flourishing by stealing from the widows and hard working lawyers.
They won't give up the NOT-COMMANDED, NOT-POSSIBLE in the Bible "Singing as an ACT (that legal thingy).
They won't give up that NOT-COMMANDED sermonizing as an ACT of worship.
They won't give up that NOT-COMMANDED Unfunded-everything.
Here is the test: If you can SEE it, SMELL it or HEAR it, that ain't it.
Lk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Religious.ObservationsA.gif)
Tom: here is your assignment if you choose to take it: you must find a safe house and hire lots of guards first.
Brite School of Reading 101A only Ph.ds in Theology or Music or Drama performing as preachers need apply
| This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Apr 22, 2012 12:58 AM |
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| Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211 | Re: I have the pattern!! | April 21 2012, 5:32 PM |
Tom,
With due respect, your argument against the pattern is exactly what the change agents are proposing. You can make a long list of differences within and among churches of Christ, but these are non-substantive differences, meaning, e.g., that the observance of the Lord's Supper is not based on using a bucket or multiple cups to contain the fruit of the vine.
Even without specifying that Jesus Christ is the pattern for our lives and that the New Testament is the pattern or guide for Christian living, it must be evident that we do not seek the pattern from human philosophy and wisdom, the psychology on individual differences, the Koran, the Mosaic law, etc.
Otherwise, we would be no different from the Roman Catholic Church that has departed from the truth as it considers that human, papal-decreed traditions are NO LESS AUTHORITATIVE THAN the Scripture.
The real division occurs when change agents are changing [pun intended?] and modifying God's design for conversion, restructuring the church, no longer stressing the truth that the New Testament is indeed plenary and is in no need for supplementary materials and resources for the Christian to find the true path to Christian living.
Reject or ignore the New Testament as the pattern, and what do we really have?
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| B
(no login)
74.179.11.38 | Re: I have the pattern!! | April 21 2012, 6:33 PM |
If a member of the church of Christ argues against the pattern, and if that argument is exactly what the change agents are proposing, then isn't it quite logical to conclude that this member is indeed a change agent?
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| Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
216.67.70.41 | Re: I have the pattern!! | April 21 2012, 9:32 PM |
No one has argued against a pattern, if such a thing exists, and change agent has yet to be defined.
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| B
(no login)
74.240.241.144 | Re: I have the pattern!! | April 21 2012, 11:58 PM |
People have argued or balked against the pattern--the New Testament--all through this web site. "Change agent" has been defined all through this web site.
If your answer is "Where"? then you haven't read enough here.
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| Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211 | Pattern = Design, Model, Structure, Formula | April 22 2012, 12:55 AM |
Brian,
Maybe, it's the first time you've heard of:
-- The New Testament Pattern
-- The New Testament Pattern for Church Leadership
-- Restoring the New Testament Pattern
-- God's Pattern for the New Testament Church
-- The Pattern of the New Testament Church
-- New Testament Pattern of Christianity
-- The New Testament Pattern of a Plurality of Elders
-- The Lord's Supper--the New Testament Pattern
-- etc., etc., etc.
Are you that unfamiliar with the Restoration Movement and its "principles" and its history itself? Could that explain why you don't seem to be knowledgeable of such expressions?
Well, you might as well "get used to" it. Recall what the initial post of this thread said? "Just curious - what is the pattern we are supposed to follow?" So, the poster has heard of the expression. And I think you now have.
I posted this earlier:
"Pattern" is defined as:
-- [n] a model considered worthy of imitation;
-- [n] something regarded as a normative example;
-- [n] something intended as a guide;
-- other synonyms: blueprint, design, form, formula, diagram. Man's creativity must not be allowed when it comes to addressing God's design or plan, e.g., of man's redemption. Let me illustrate once again the conversion process as designed or patterned by God. We can do this by comparing man's pattern and God's pattern:
(1) Man's pattern is that: "You accept Christ as your personal Savior [meaning: simply "believe that Christ died for you -- and stop there], and you are saved." After [now that] you are/have been saved, be baptized sooner or later only as a symbol or ritual.
(2) God's design does not stop at "believing." The New Testament clearly illustrates that pattern. One outside of Christ must also repent (Acts 2:37,38). He that "believes and is baptized SHALL BE SAVED" (Mark 16:16); "... be baptized so that your sins will be forgiven" (Acts 2:38).
"Change agent" is self-defining.
For the change agent to present an argument or a case that there is "no pattern" indicates that he is familiar with expressions such as "the New Testament pattern." He just rejects it so he can advance his notion, e.g., that baptism is NOT essential to salvation. Once he convinces that baptism is not essential to salvation, he is then in agreement with the Baptist doctrine that "be saved NOW" by "accepting Christ as your personal Savior" and "be baptized LATER."
See the difference, Brian? Trust me, or do your own research, as to what other doctrines and teachings found in the New Testament that the change agents want to CHANGE. Funny, but not really, ... how that you've been aligned with the change agents and their ideas and teachings ... and didn't even know it.
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| Anonymous
(no login)
216.67.48.178 | Re: Pattern = Design, Model, Structure, Formula | April 22 2012, 3:30 AM |
The original question was "What is the pattern?" So far, no one has been able to supply an answer other than "Read the New Testament and figure it out?" What are the particulars of this pattern, if it even exists?
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| B
(no login)
74.179.7.76 | Re: Pattern = Design, Model, Structure, Formula | April 22 2012, 12:40 PM |
The answer has been given many times. It is "Read and study the New Testament," for the New Testament is the pattern. Yet when some people receive an answer they don't want to hear or read, they say, "You still haven't answered my question."
Yes, we have. You just can't or won't accept it.
BTW, those members of the church of Christ who argue against the pattern (the pattern that the change agents argue against) will also not accept the New Testament as the pattern.
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| Tom Brite
(no login)
69.91.123.95 | Re: I have the pattern!! | April 22 2012, 11:51 AM |
Donnie, it seems very easy for you to dismiss differences in some Churches of Christ but have you ever spoken to someone or read material from those with different views from you on these issues? Believe me, for these brethren these issues are not "non-substantive." They will tell you that you are just as wrong (and bound for Hell) for worshipping in a congregation with a gymnasium or kitchen (such as Madison, even before the changes) as you condemn those who now worship with an instrument. The simple reason for your view is that, to you, these issues are non-substantive, just as the instrument is non-substantive to others. And I would dare say that each of these brethren (on all sides of each of these issues) believe that thy are following the "pattern" laid out in the New Testament.
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| B
(no login)
74.240.211.109 | Re: I have the pattern!! | April 19 2012, 9:12 AM |
This is the question Brian asked in the first place. We're back to square one and the "answers" begin anew. Who says "history" doesn't repeat itself? 
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| Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
174.252.180.107 | Re: I have the pattern!! | April 22 2012, 12:28 PM |
Who says "history" doesn't repeat itself? .
So does a Cuckoo Clock.
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| B
(no login)
74.179.7.76 | Re: I have the pattern!! | April 22 2012, 12:41 PM |
A busted clock is also accurate--twice a day.
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| Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
66.230.86.53 | Re: I have the pattern!! | April 22 2012, 1:35 PM |
Despite all the verbiage, no one seems to know the particulars of this pattern we are supposed to follow. I wonder, is the pattern given or is this a traditional doctrinal creed that has been elevated to the status of law?
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| Ken Sublettt
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
174.252.189.137 | Re: I have the pattern!! | April 22 2012, 4:19 PM |
We have repeated and repeated: in the words of those lying, cheating and stealing the church houses of widows (Scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites, performance preachers, singers, instrument players re Jesus) about PATTERNS.
Rubel Shelly used the mocking pattern while looking at a dress pattern (with his wife).
Now they cannot envision a PATTERN which does not include Scribes and Pharisees or STAFF on the pyramid (ziggurat) pattern (Rick Atchley) and Brian cannot grasp the pattern we have described over and overy.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
......All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore,
......and teach all nations,
......baptizing them in the name
......of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [Jesus Christ]
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever
......I have commanded you:
...... and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
SO THAT PATTERN WILL NOT CHANGE
A person is an enemy of Jesus Christ who can say, "Well, He did not say that we cannot hire a musician-preacher or use instruments to PRAISE God?"
The approved INCLUSIVE from the Church of Christ in the wilderness where the TEACHING resource which was the Word of God especially The Book of The Covenenat the musical idolaters rejected at Pentecost. That later included the PROPHETS who spoke by the Spirit OF (preposition) of Christ. What Christ called "the lying pen of the Scribes" should be studied as the ANTITHESIS of a God-centered assembly. The Scribes and Pharisees or hypocrites or "entertainment preachers, singers and instrument players" are the ANTITHESIS of a Christ centere assembly with the WORD as the only available resources.
Jesus followed the pattern as our example.
Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up:
......and, as his custom was,
......he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day,
......and stood up for to read.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city
......them that preach him,
......being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
1Timothy 4:11 These things command and teach.
1Timothy 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers,
......in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
1Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1Timothy 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee,
......which was given thee by prophecy, [teaching]
......with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
1Timothy 4:15 Meditate upon these things; [spaking and meditating IN THE HEART]
......give thyself wholly to them;
......that thy profiting may appear to all.
1Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself,
......and unto the doctrine; continue in them:
......for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself,
......and them that hear thee
THE CAMPBELLS AND ALL BIBLE STUDENTS UNDERSTOOD THE PATTERN.
Of Thomas Campbell: In 1839, from the "old brother, came an article on "The Divine Order for Evangelizing the World, and for Teaching the Evangelized How to Conduct Themselves." He started with the Great Commission in Matthew, and urged the necessity of teaching and preaching.
"Let the church then take up its Book and read and study it. The proper character of the church is the school of Christ, disciples, Christians. . . .
It must not shame its Master by its stupid, wilful, shameful ignorance of his Book."
He proposed for the Lord's Day a meeting of four hours, beginning at ten o'clock and a half-hour intermission between each two hours. An order of service is really suggested which provides at the close for assignments of study for the week and "a contribution of something to the common stock for religious purposes, as God has prospered him." WILLIAM HERBERT HANNA
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| Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211 | Change Agent Says: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed" | April 22 2012, 4:29 PM |
No, Brian, "pattern" is not a traditional doctrinal creed. Human creeds are what the church is to stay away from. Without the pattern the Christian or the church is likely to embrace human creeds.
The change agents are the ones opposed to the pattern. They're very persuasive to gullible Christians by proclaiming their gospel that there is "NO PATTERN." Does it really make sense to oppose something that does not exist?
Again, I posted the following earlier:"Pattern" is defined as:
-- [n] a model considered worthy of imitation;
-- [n] something regarded as a normative example;
-- [n] something intended as a guide;
-- other synonyms: blueprint, design, form, formula, diagram. Brian, isn't a blueprint needed before constructing a building? Or, should the construction go its merry way without the design? What about making a dress or a suit?
Even in the Old Testament era, there was "a pattern of the altar of the Lord"; the "work of the candlestick was ... according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses"; "... that thou make them after their pattern...."
God's plan of man's redemption is a wonderful design. We find that pattern in the New Testament.
There is the New Testament pattern of the church leadership -- it is not based on a human org chart.
There is the pattern of good works in Christian living. "In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity" (Titus 2:7).
There is the pattern to follow to everlasting life. "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting" (I Tim. 1:16).
Right, the change agents reject the pattern by proclaiming their own pattern:- That women ["husband of one wife"] can be church leaders.
- That elders can appoint those to become fellow elders.
- That the Lord's Supper is also a "fellowship meal" of chips & drinks.
- That God doesn't say "no" to mechanical music in the assembly.
- That it's OK for the New Testament church to be a denomination.
- That God's grace takes care of everything--misuse it, abuse it.
- That faith saves now; be baptized later.
- [There are more creative ideas of the change agents.]
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| Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
216.67.49.96 | Re: Change Agent Says: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed" | April 22 2012, 5:36 PM |
You misunderstand, Donnie. I know perfectly well what a pattern is. I understand the concept of a blueprint. What I don't understand is the refusal to provide the particulars of the pattern we are supposed to follow as Christians. "It's in the New Testament; if you can't figure it out, it's your fault" doesn't cut it.
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| Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211 | Re: Change Agent Says: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed" | April 22 2012, 6:07 PM |
Brian,
Knowing "perfectly well what a pattern is" is a great step forward. We've repeatedly provided you the particulars which you've repeatedly failed to acknowledge. Let me put it in a different manner by asking you a few questions.
1) Do you believe in or that there is God's plan (the pattern) of redemption?
2) Do you believe in God's design (the pattern) for His church?
3) Do you believe in God's pattern for Christians towards life everlasting?
Just a few questions for now. If you do not agree that there is the pattern for the church, that there is the pattern of church leadership, that there is the pattern for Christian living ... please explain.
But if you agree (or even admit) that there is the pattern for each of those elements mentioned so far, we'll be glad to provide you "the particulars." We can start with the particulars regarding the process of conversion -- God's plan (pattern) of redemption. In fact, we've already done this.
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| B
(no login)
98.87.23.23 | Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern? | April 22 2012, 5:27 PM |
A man had an appointment with a new doctor and walked around in the clinic looking for the doctor's office. Finally, he went to an information desk and asked, "Can you tell me where Dr. Smith's office is?"
The woman at the desk said, "Why, it's right behind you." The man looked around, then turned back to the woman and said, "Where's the office? Can't you tell me where Dr. Smith's office is?"
The woman looked perplexed and replied, "Sir, I just told you. Dr. Smith's office is the door right behind you."
The man just said, "Apparently no one knows where Dr. Smith's office is."
The woman summoned her supervisor and asked him to direct the man to Dr. Smith's office. "Sir," said the supervisor, "go in this door behind you. That is Dr. Smith's office."
The man just smiled and said, "Neither you nor this woman nor anyone else seems to know where Dr. Smith's office is."
The supervisor said, "Sir, do you have vision problems?"
The man said, "I see perfectly well. All I know is that nobody here knows where Dr. Smith's office is. I would think that in a clinic, an information desk would know where all the doctors' offices are."
And so the "conversation" went on and on and on without any progress. The more people tried to show the man where Dr. Smith's office was, the more the man denied it.
Of course, the man wasn't blind at all. He kept denying the location of Dr. Smith's office, BECAUSE HE REALLY DIDN'T WANT TO GO TO THE DOCTOR IN THE FIRST PLACE.
And so it is with folks who keep asking to see the pattern after others have told them time and again that THE PATTERN IS THE NEW TESTAMENT. These folks play a ridiculous game by appearing to be obtuse, then claim that no one can show them the pattern, because they really don't want to see or know the pattern in the first place.
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| Ken Sublettt
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
174.252.189.137 | Re: Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern? | April 22 2012, 5:56 PM |
That's called the ANTI-Christ pattern. The change agente (missed diaper 101a) planned in the beginning that they would never respond to anything which did not fit their agenda to restructure Churches of Christ under the "unity" ploy of the NACC. I had contact with the Jubilee patternism. You will have noticed that none of the "scholars" plaguing the once-Christian Bible Schools aid and defend the musicators but they will not respond even when you prove that Psaom 150 is the MAKING WAR with all of the prostitute's instruments and MAKING Soothsaying which connects both the instrumental noises with inspecting the stolen animals for flaws or signs.
That's just fine: Jesus will never toss anyone into the Lake of Fire without forcing them to get all of the nails in the coffin or get all of the dry wood collected.
Brian thinks he is being cute but he has a preplanned mission along with the old defunct spirits whom John called sorcerers as performance singers, instrument players and all of the tekne or religious Teknokrats best illustrated as the Jewish System which had a Covenant with Death and an agreement with Hell.
Paul warned us about those agents of the air.
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| Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
216.67.49.96 | Re: Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern? | April 22 2012, 6:05 PM |
Bogus answer, redneck. You mean to tell me that with all your supposed scholarship, you can't provide the particulars of the pattern?
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