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(Login BrianCade)

Re: Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern?

April 22 2012, 6:07 PM 

This is a false analogy. Telling me where to find something is not the same as telling me what it is.

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(no login)

Re: Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern?

April 22 2012, 6:45 PM 

Any analogy will seem "false" to those who are bent on denying what the pattern is and where it can be found.

For the deliberately obtuse: The pattern is the teachings of Christ and His apostles. The pattern is found in the New Testament.

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(no login)

Re: Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern?

April 22 2012, 7:06 PM 

John: "Someone tell me the pattern."

Mark: "The pattern is the New Testament."

John: "I don't want to know where to find the pattern; I want to know what the pattern IS."

Mark: "Very well, the pattern is the teachings of Christ and His apostles. You'll find them in the New Testament."

John: "But you haven't told me what the pattern IS!"

Mark: "I just did. The pattern IS the teachings of Christ and His apostles that are found in the New Testament."

John: "Doesn't anybody know what the pattern IS?"

Mark: "Why are you being so obtuse?"

John: "Why won't you tell me what the pattern IS?"

Mark: "I did. Why are you so reluctant to read the teachings of Christ and His apostles in the New Testament and learn the pattern?


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(no login)

Re: Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern?

April 22 2012, 10:47 PM 

Now we are getting somewhere. What are the particulars of this pattern? Are they to be performed simultaneously or in sequence or what?

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ken sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern?

April 22 2012, 11:05 PM 

I have recommended that we start you out in our Toddlers Slow ones of the Slow Group happy.gif

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(no login)

Here's the Pattern

April 22 2012, 11:39 PM 

What is the pattern? It's simply this: obey the teachings of Christ and His apostles in the New Testament. Their teachings are requirements for salvation. The following is taken from an essay entitled "Christ's Requirements for Salvation" by Dr. Bill Crump.

Many people will say, "Jesus requires nothing from us for salvation," or they may say, "All we need to do is just believe/have faith, nothing more," or even, "Just trust in Jesus' sacrifice alone; don't bother obeying Jesus' commandments." Either these people really don't know that Jesus has issued specific requirements for salvation, both explicitly by Him and through His apostles, or their denominational traditions compel these people to deny Jesus' requirements for salvation. My purpose for posting is simply to summarize the requirements for salvation that Jesus and His apostles have stated in the New Testament. Some readers will see the validity of the summary; others will reject it for various reasons. Perhaps they will focus on one verse and ignore another verse that provides further meaning to a salvation requirement. Here are Jesus' requirements for salvation with example references from the King James Bible:

"And the gospel must first be published among all nations" (Mark 13:10).

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Rom. 10:14).

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:31).

Faith is certainly a highly important requirement for salvation, but it is by no means the only requirement. Without faith, we cannot comply with Jesus' other requirements.

"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord" (Acts 3:19).

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 10:32-33).

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Rom. 10:9-10).

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16).

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38).

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).

"The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21).

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15).

"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2 Thess. 1:7-9).

"Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Heb. 5:8-9).

The first five requirements deal with the conversion process. A person cannot be saved until he is converted to Christianity and obeys the Gospel. After obeying the Gospel, a Christian must continue to obey the teachings of Christ and the apostles for the rest of his life. Therefore, the sixth requirement comprises everything else that Christ commanded either explicitly or through His apostles (for example, observing the Lord's Supper, helping the needy, visiting the sick, love thy neighbor, doing good for mankind, assembling together for worship, etc.). Collectively, all six are required for salvation. Of course, Christ knows if man's compliance is done faithfully and willingly or just for show.

Therefore, Jesus requires that we hear the Gospel, followed by faith, repentance, confession, baptism, and a life of obedience from us before He will grant salvation unto us. Many people will argue that since these requirements are not conveniently listed together in one spot in the New Testament, they are not valid. But even if they were listed together, some people would then brand that a "legalistic list" and thumb their noses at it. People will also argue that obeying Jesus' requirements for salvation equates to personal works, that obedience "robs" Christ of His sacrifice, that baptism is dunking in water which can't "save" anyone, or a hundred other man-made excuses for circumventing what Jesus commands. The fact remains, however, that Jesus has issued certain requirements for salvation, either directly or through the apostolic epistles. It is up to us to decide whether we'll submit gladly and willingly, obey Him, and have the promise of salvation; or not submit, disobey Him, and have the promise of damnation.

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(no login)

Re: Here's the Pattern

April 23 2012, 1:49 AM 

Even better. Now is there a particular sequence to this or some order or are all these steps to be performed simultaneousl?

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Here's the Pattern

April 23 2012, 2:55 AM 

Yes, there is a sequence -- logically and scripturally. For example, the remission of sins DOES NOT OCCUR PRIOR TO THE BURIAL WITH CHRIST IN BAPTISM and THE RESURRECTION WITH CHRIST.

Brian, do you believe in the man-made doctrine that: BELIEVE ["accept Christ as your personal Savior"] and you are SAVED [sins are forgiven] ... and BE BAPTIZED later?

Yes? (Then, prove it.)

No? (Then, why question the SEQUENCE like a change agent.)

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Apr 23, 2012 2:59 AM

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(no login)

Re: Here's the Pattern

April 23 2012, 2:58 AM 

They are numbered in the logical sequence in which they should be performed. For example, baptism certainly would be of no value if one had neither heard the Gospel nor believed, nor repented, nor confessed Christ before men.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"

April 22 2012, 11:52 PM 

Brian, earlier I quoted references to patterns from both the Old Testament and the New Testament:

-- "a pattern of the altar of the Lord" [OT]
-- "according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses" [OT, NT also]
-- "that thou make them after their pattern" [OT]
-- "a pattern of good works" [NT]
-- "a pattern to them ... to life everlasting" [NT}

The change agents are the ones opposed to the pattern. They're very persuasive to gullible Christians by proclaiming their gospel that there is "NO PATTERN." Does it really make sense to oppose something that does not exist?

[For the rest of the message, cf. above post dated April 22 2012, 4:29 PM]

Brian's Response:
You misunderstand, Donnie. I know perfectly well what a pattern is. I understand the concept of a blueprint. What I don't understand is the refusal to provide the particulars of the pattern we are supposed to follow as Christians. "It's in the New Testament; if you can't figure it out, it's your fault" doesn't cut it.

Donnie's Response:
Re: Change Agent Says: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed" April 22 2012, 6:07 PM


Knowing "perfectly well what a pattern is" is a great step forward. We've repeatedly provided you the particulars which you've repeatedly failed to acknowledge. Let me put it in a different manner by asking you a few questions.

1) Do you believe in or that there is God's plan (the pattern) of redemption?
2) Do you believe in God's design (the pattern) for His church?
3) Do you believe in God's pattern for Christians towards life everlasting?

Just a few questions for now. If you do not agree that there is the pattern for the church, that there is the pattern of church leadership, that there is the pattern for Christian living ... please explain.

But if you agree (or even admit) that there is the pattern for each of those elements mentioned so far, we'll be glad to provide you "the particulars." We can start with the particulars regarding the process of conversion -- God's plan (pattern) of redemption. In fact, we've already done this.


OK, I'm no longer interested in your one-liner remarks. It's about time for you to respond like a good Christian doctrinal issues debater. [You see, Brian, if you were involved in a real 2-hour public debate, and you spent a total of 2 minutes out of 60 minutes allotted for your persuasive rebuttal, you would persuade no one. Well, maybe, except yourself.]

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(no login)

Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"

April 23 2012, 1:34 AM 

I repeat; telling me where to find it is not the same as telling me what it is. I can read the New Testament and have done. What I want to know is - what is the pattern? You and others seem to think that it is self-evident. I don't find it to be so.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"

April 23 2012, 2:44 AM 


I am not telling you where to find it -- you're smarter than that. The problem is either:

(1) That you do not believe there is any pattern at all that the Christian or the church is to follow -- this is what the change agents are telling the gullible folks;

---------------------- or-----------------------

(2) That you know [or once knew] about the New Testament pattern for the church, the NT pattern of church leadership, the NT pattern for Christian living -- you just deny or reject the truth that God who designed his creation to perfection also has a design [pattern] for His NT church and pattern for NT Christians to follow.

I've been telling you and showing you what it is. Over and over again.

Now, would you answer the 3 simple questions above?

I am waiting.

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(Login BrianCade)

Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"

April 23 2012, 12:22 PM 

You told me where to find the pattern then went on the attack when I asked you what the pattern is. Misdirection and vitriol are not explanations.You need to answer the question you are asked instead of deriding the seeker for his inquiry. If he knows already, why would he ask in the first place?

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Brian is A pattern

April 23 2012, 1:42 PM 

Clement of Alexander: Word Versus Instrumental Music:

Brian, you are tolerated because you are a wonderful PATTERN to contrast with a Disciple of Christ: You are of such "Biblical Proportions" that I giggle all day!

It is an enterprise of noble daring to take our way to God; and the enjoyment of many other good things is within the reach of the lovers of righteousness, who pursue eternal life, specially those things to which God Himself alludes, speaking by Isaiah:

"There is an inheritance for those who serve the Lord." Noble and desirable is this inheritance: not gold, not silver, not raiment, which the moth assails, and things of earth which are assailed by the robber, whose eye is dazzled by worldly wealth;
but it is that treasure of salvation to which we must hasten, by becoming lovers of the Word.
Thence praise-worthy works descend to us, and fly with us on the wing of truth. This is the inheritance with Which the eternal covenant of God invests us, conveying the everlasting gift of grace; and thus our loving Father-the true Father-ceases not to exhort, admonish, train, love us.

For He ceases not to save, and advises the best course: "Become righteous," says the Lord.

Ye that thirst, come to the water;

and ye that have no money, come, and buy and drink without money.
.....He invites to the laver, salvation, to illumination,

all but crying out and saying, The land I give thee, and the sea, my child, and heaven too;
.....and all the living creatures in them I freely bestow upon thee.
.....Only, O child, thirst for thy Father;

God shall be revealed to thee without price;
.....the truth is not made merchandise of.
.....He gives thee all creatures that fly and swim, and those on the land.
.....These the Father has created for thy thankful enjoyment.

What the bastard, who is a son of perdition, foredoomed to be the slave of mammon, has to buy for money,
.....He assigns to thee as thine own,
.....even to His own son who loves the Father; for whose sake He still works,
.....and to whom alone He promises, saying,
....."The land shall not be sold in perpetuity," for it is not destined to corruption.
....."For the whole land is mine; "and it is thine too, if thou receive God.

"Behold," He says, "I have set before your face death and life."
.....The Lord tries you, that "you may choose life."
..... He counsels you as a father to obey God. "For if ye hear Me,"
.....He says, "and be willing, ye shall eat the good things of the land: "
..... this is the grace attached to obedience.
....."But if ye obey Me not, and are unwilling,
.....the sword and fire shall devour you: "
..... his is the penalty of disobedience.

For the mouth of the Lord- the law of truth, the word of the Lord-hath spoken these things.

But your Olympian Jove, the image of an image, greatly out of harmony with truth,
..... is the senseless work of Attic hands.

For the image of God is His Word, the genuine Son of Mind,
.....the Divine Word, the archetypal light of light;
.....and the image of the Word is the true man,
.....the mind which is in man, who is therefore said to have been made
....."in the image and likeness of God,"
.....* assimilated to the Divine Word in the affections of the soul, and therefore rational;

but effigies sculptured in human form,
.....the earthly image of that part of man which is visible and earth-born,
..... are but a perishable impress of humanity, manifestly wide of the truth.
.....That life, then, which is occupied with so much earnestness about matter,
..... seems to me to be nothing else than full of insanity.

No trinitarian can understand that the Son of God is His Word: truth is revealed through parables to fool the Scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites. They use PHYSICAL images or IDOLS to define their godhead.

No Grace-Centered person need apply because even Jesus was not called a Son until he was baptized. They literally TAUNT God by saying that they know they are going to sin but GRACE has an obligation to save them: God hates instruments in the holy places and He hates those who sow discord being INTENTIONAL (their buzz word) in stealing your property and dividing your family and working witchcraft on your children.

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(Login BrianCade)

Re: Brian is A pattern

April 23 2012, 4:04 PM 

Learn when to shut up, Ken. Your input is not necessary or instructive.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"

April 23 2012, 9:48 PM 


I really believe I have told you several times what the pattern is. I may not be as patient as you would expect [although I think I have the patience of Job (almost)], but I am not deriding you for inquiring.

Since you feel that my response is wrong or insufficient or not what you're expecting or in disagreement with you, I am really, sincerely, asking you to answer the 3 simple questions I posed earlier:

1) Do you believe in or that there is God's plan (the pattern) of redemption?
2) Do you believe in God's design (the pattern) for His church?
3) Do you believe in God's pattern for Christians towards life everlasting?

If you do not agree:

1) That there is a/the pattern/design from God of man's redemption;
2) That there is a/the pattern for the church &/or its leadership;
3) That there is a/the pattern for Christian living ... please explain.

But if you agree (or even admit) that there is the pattern for each of those elements mentioned so far, I'll be glad to provide you, to the best of my ability, "the particulars."

This is not a trap; I'm just trying to figure out why you do not understand my answer [several times] to your question.

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(no login)

Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"

April 24 2012, 12:59 AM 

The answer is "I don't know". Some say there is a pattern, some say not, some say it depends on how pattern is defined.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"

April 24 2012, 4:47 AM 


Thanks for responding. Your answer of "I don't know" to each of the 3 questions is not exactly what I was expecting from someone who's engaged in the discussion of doctrinal issues for quite some time now. I take it that you answered with all sincerity.

On that basis [no knowledge of the subject], the approach to discussing "a pattern" or "the pattern" is changing somewhat.

I think you agree on the definition of the word "pattern":
"Pattern" is defined as:

-- [n] a model considered worthy of imitation;
-- [n] something regarded as a normative example;
-- [n] something intended as a guide;
-- other synonyms: blueprint, design, form, formula, diagram.

I have provided examples of or references to patterns:

(1) The pattern of the altar of the Lord [several ref. in the OT]
(2) God's plan of man's redemption in the blood of the Lamb [throughout the NT]
(3) The pattern of living in Christ to life everlasting [I Tim. 1]
(4) God's design of His church, including its organization.

In order to know and learn about the particulars of a pattern, one must first identify which pattern or design or plan it is. For our purposes as Christians, we obviously identify the (any) pattern as a New Testament pattern -- which is our only written source. [The pattern of the tabernacle described in the O.T. is history, just as is the law of the Ten Commandments.]

Yes, there is the pattern of the New Testament church.

But ... the change agents are altering God's pattern of His church.

Yes, God has designed the process of man's conversion.

But ... the change agents are oversimplifying God's design of conversion with: "Be saved now; be baptized later."

Yes, there is the pattern for Christian living. While we are under grace, we are still responsible to remain faithful unto death.

But ... the change agents want you to believe that God's grace covers it all -- abuse it; misuse it.

It does not make sense to believe that there was no design to God's creation of the universe. There was a pattern when Christ established His church. God's plan of man's redemption has been perfectly designed so that there's God's part [grace, love, mercy] and man's part to follow God's directives for conversion.

With the proper understanding of the New Testament pattern (of "conversion" or of "church organization" or of "Christian living"), I think that we can now identify the pattern that we would like to discuss in more detail.

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Tom Brite
(no login)

Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"

April 24 2012, 9:27 AM 

Donnie, this is my post from earlier in this thread:

"Donnie, it seems very easy for you to dismiss differences in some Churches of Christ but have you ever spoken to someone or read material from those with different views from you on these issues? Believe me, for these brethren these issues are not "non-substantive." They will tell you that you are just as wrong (and bound for Hell) for worshipping in a congregation with a gymnasium or kitchen (such as Madison, even before the changes) as you condemn those who now worship with an instrument. The simple reason for your view is that, to you, these issues are non-substantive, just as the instrument is non-substantive to others. And I would dare say that each of these brethren (on all sides of each of these issues) believe that thy are following the "pattern" laid out in the New Testament."

While I have knowledge of the pattern concept, I am confused as to how a different pattern can be arrived by pattern theologies who read the same scriptures but yet come to different conclusions as to the actual pattern to be followed. Even among conservative Church of Christ members, a different pattern sems to exist in even fundamental issues (foe example, reelection of Elders, operation of the Holy Spirit, use of kitchens and family life centers). Again, it seems to me that for each individual Christian, the result of pattern theology happens to be whatever that particular person feels it to be, thus a problem for pattern theologists.

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(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"

April 24 2012, 1:30 PM 

Tom, the owners of this forum do NOT defend any kind of "patterns" which go beyond what Christ in the wilderness specificially INCLUDED and EXCLUDED. The Purpose Driving CM is to refute those who boast about "Infiltrating and Diverting" your church to make it into a "theater for holy entertainment." That was the stated purpose at Madison and they boasted about letting people think they were on a train to Birmingham but "we gonna switch their cars and take them to Louisville 'cause that's were we gonna take them.' Max Lucado and Lynn Anderson "learned them how" as Promise Keepers and then Purpose Driven.

Speaking of Thomas Campbell on Christian Union XVI

In 1839, from the "old brother, came an article on "The Divine Order for Evangelizing the World, and for Teaching the Evangelized How to Conduct Themselves." He started with the Great Commission in Matthew, and urged the necessity of teaching and preaching.

"Let the church then take up its Book and read and study it. The proper character of the church is the school of [175] Christ, disciples, Christians. . . . It must not shame its Master by its stupid, wilful, shameful ignorance of his Book."

He proposed for the Lord's Day a meeting of four hours, beginning at ten o'clock and a half-hour intermission between each two hours. An order of service is really suggested which provides at the close for assignments of study for the week and "a contribution of something to the common stock for religious purposes, as God has prospered him."

In XVII speaking of beginning Bethany college in 1840 (Millennial Harbinger, p. 340).

"Most infants from twelve to eighteen months old are capable of being instructed; so that at the age of two years they would be able to connect the idea of the heavenly Father with every object of delight and enjoyment; and thus not only become duly acquainted with the divine existence, but also with the delightful attributes of his nature--his power, wisdom, goodness and love."

Rick Atchley who learned all of the TRICKS from Max Lucado and the NACC wrote

Well, we discipled the children of those progressive churches
.....for a whole generation to grow past us Boomers.
.....They never heard the sermons we heard.
.....They never heard the rationale for a cappella music.

We sent them to youth rallies and Church of Christ events
.....with some of the finest Christian bands in the world.
.....We discipled our children to leave our Movement!

We TAKE the right to tell the world that these are blasphemers (saying that the Spirit of Christ said something He did not say) or that all of the instrumental noise in the Bible is called soothsaying, sorcery or witchcraft. It is a fact that God did NOT say, thou shalt not practice witchcraft. Witchcraft has always been facilitated by sound, sight, expectation or drugs and these were--in REAL HISTORY--best facilitated by the sounds of instruments which with the demon worshipers SPOKE for their gods (demons). David tried to AWAKEN his lyre so that he could AWAKEN the sun. Paul warned about this instrumental demon worship in 1 Cor 10 and Romans 10.

There is no way to associate CM with any of the right-wingers who are just as NOT bible literate as the Left wingers. However, the right wingers will never use deception (witchcraft usually female or effeminate) to steal the church houses of widows and hard working lawyhers.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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