I changed the message title from being "untitled."
This is a great question -- now made controversial by the change agents who no longer subscribe to "the pattern" that the New Testament church is to follow. Let's discuss.
Christ, the Rock, defined the pattern for the qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness. To avoid panic of camp movement, going to war or celebrating victory, the godly Israelites were called into assembly only for the purpose of transmitting the Word of God down to tribesand smaller groups.
The synagogue always existed for the godly people not involve in the not-commanded sacrificial system which was the flesh-- and blood-- lust of the other national or STATE sacrifices used to confiscate the peoples animals under the ploy that their "god" needed to be fed, clothed, housed and entertained or he/she would get angry and hurt you.
Jesus attended the synagogue
Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was,
.....he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day,
.....and stood up for to read.
The Scrolls would be open on the pulpit (not to hold up preachers) and it would have been the scheduled plan of reading: the Prophets were key documents because they were inspired by the Spirit OF (preposition) Christ and defined in inclusive and exclusive statements the plan for a TRUE REST when Messiah came.
Jesus came as the LIGHT of the world and the purpose was to heal spiritual afflictions.
Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias.
.....And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, [Isaiah 61)
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, ..... because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor;
..... he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted,
......to preach deliverance to the captives,
......and recovering of sight to the blind,
......to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down.
......And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Both Jew and Gentile attended synagogue and both would be prepared to obey the good news when Messiah came.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time
.....hath in every city them that preach him,
.....being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
It would have been considered blasphemy to insert your own experiences or speculation into that "which is writen for our learning."
I suggest the beginning of this answer is to look at the following line of reasoning
Col 1 - Christ is the image of God, the head of the church, raised from the dead and has pre-eminence over all things.
Pre eminence meaning first in rank or influence over everything spiritual or physical.
John 10/14 - Christ says that he and the Father are one, and to know him is to know the Father.
John 14 - Christ is the only way to God and no person comes to the Father any other way. There are no alternate ways to salvation and approval by God.
Heb 11 - Humans who come to God must believe that he is and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.
To know or be aware of the pattern that we are to follow in worship and life one must conform his or her thinking to the above scripture concepts and absolutes. There is no other name given among men by which we must be saved!
For those who love the Lord and are Disciples (students) that is the central purpose driving the assemblies. Whatever minimizes or replaces Christ as the only source is forbidden by the Word and common decency.
Songs and sermons are to teach that which has been written and elders are to teach that which has been taught. That is both a direct command and the mark of those who hunger and thirst to know more about God and the lord.
I don't believe that is widely believed anymore and if the church shrinks or does not grow the only remedy is to feed them with The Word.
John Watson Smith summed it up quite well. Of course, if a person really wants to know the pattern, s/he will read and study the New Testament. If that's odious, then s/he really doesn't want to know the pattern.
That "it [whatever] is not a salvation issue" is a typical ultimate response coming from the liberal, progressive side of the aisle.
For example, part of the pattern for the New Testament church is the gospel truth that only when one outside of Christ hears the gospel, believes in Christ, repents and is baptized will that sinner be saved and become God's child and be added to the body of Christ.
That's only one example. But still not only can that part of the pattern become a salvation issue but also that part of the pattern IS A SALVATION ISSUE.
Unless the final step in the process of conversion, which is being baptized, is followed, the sinner DOES NOT BECOME God's child UNLESS and UNTIL he has been buried with Christ in baptism IN ORDER TO HAVE HIS SINS REMITTED. He also must be RISEN with Christ from the burial IN ORDER TO BEGIN NEWNESS OF LIFE.
It is unscriptural to tell the sinner (one outside of Christ) that all he needs to do is "accept Christ as your personal Savior" (i.e., "believe") and he is forgiven of his sins and is SAVED WITHOUT THE BURIAL AND RESURRECTION WITH CHRIST.
That is just one example of many. But that should be a strong point enough to consider: (1) that conversion without baptism or (2) that one is saved BEFORE BAPTISM -- is a serious salvation issue.
Sadly and unfortunately, is the change agents in the brotherhood who are questioning the pattern for the New Testament church.
The change agents go so far as to teach:
(1) That the sinner "accepts Christ" and is saved; he is baptized later on.
(2) That the "office of an elder" is now a modified concept [that of a liberal "shepherd"]
(3) That the "office of a deacon" is insignificant, to be abolished
(4) That the church of Christ is just "another denomination."
(5) ... etc.
Follow the commands and directions of Jesus in the Gospels as well as the examples of Christian living given in the apostolic epistles. That is the complete pattern.
There is a thread in the archives entitled "Christ's Requirements for Salvation" by Dr. Bill Crump. It summarizes what Christ requires of us for salvation plus how we must live after we become Christians. All these directions are taken directly from the New Testament.
I know what you want -- making all excuses for the benefit of the change agents who make an issue of the New Testament pattern for the New Testament church.
The truth in the New Testament is THE PATTERN for the New Testament church. In it you will find the design and structure of the church and its organization -- the office of "elder" (not papacy), the office of "deacon" (not wife, but husband of one wife).
God's design for conversion is that forgiveness of sins in the blood of the Lamb DOES NOT OCCUR PRIOR TO immersion in water (burial and resurrection with Christ in baptism).
THE PATTERN for the church, conversion and Christian living is revealed in the New Testament -- it is plenary.
Do not question the completeness of the New Testament -- be assured: it does not include man's opinions, creeds, viewpoints, assertions, commandments.
You may be visualizing a literal pattern, such as a dress pattern. We can't help you with that--literally.
But there may be some good resulting from your questions such as: what "the pattern" really is or what "the complete pattern" is.
Because of your persistence in asking (and you may be asking with all sincerity), I would no longer assume that you are that familiar with certain Restoration Movement principles. One of those RM principles -- that the change agents are now rejecting -- is the principle that the New Testament is the pattern for the New Testament church.
Ken Sublett has already mentioned that "which is written for our learning"; the church being a school of Christ; worship is "reading and musing the Word."
John Watson Smith has indicated that the pattern for Christian living (living a sober righteous godly life or "living in holy conduct and godliness") is found in God's truth.
I have provided specific examples of:
(1) God's design for the church in terms of its structure [the elders--not the papal hierarchy and ascendancy in the Roman Catholic Church; the deacons--not the deaconesses]; etc.;
(2) God's design for the conversion process--cannot be without the burial in baptism with Christ and resurrection with Him to begin newness of life;
(3) God's design for Christian living--loving God and neighbor [faith without works is DEAD], remaining faithful to the end in order to be rewarded "the crown of life," life everlasting;
Brian, the pattern is the New Testament -- it is our complete guide.
When the change agents are advocating that the elders make decisions for the congregation without consulting the New Testament for boundaries and limitations (e.g., "let us now implement the use of inanimate, lifeless [not to mention "divisive"] musical devices in "public worship"), the New Testament as a pattern is being rejected and violated.
When the change agents advocate that baptism is no longer essential as many of them now believe that one can be saved beforehand or without it [thanks to the pro-Baptist Max Lucado, et al], the New Testament as a pattern or guide is rejected and violated.
When the change agents abuse and misuse God's grace in Christian living, they are in violation of the New Testament as a pattern or guide because the Christian under God's grace is still responsible to maintain good works (Titus 3:8,14; James 2:17,24).
Indeed, the New Testament is the pattern or guide that Christians are to follow.
"Can Anyone Articulate for Me What the Pattern Is?"
April 14 2012, 11:22 PM
A man found a cave and went into it. The passage went straight back into a mountain for a mile, then abruptly stopped at a dead end.
"How am I gonna get out of here?" mused the man to himself.
Waving his flashlight around, the man saw a message written on the wall: "To leave the cave, turn around and go back out the way you came in."
That seemed much too easy for the man, so he hollered and screamed, "WHAT'S THE PATTERN FOR GETTING OUT OF HERE? CAN ANYONE ARTICULATE FOR ME WHAT THE PATTERN IS?"
Some people look for the complex and difficult way to solve a problem when the simple answer is staring them right in the face.
If you want to know what pattern Christ set for us, read His Words and those of the apostles whom He inspired in the New Testament. It doesn't get any simpler than that.
Re: "Can Anyone Articulate for Me What the Pattern Is?"
April 14 2012, 11:33 PM
And then there are other people who know exactly what Christ's pattern is, but they reject it and make a mockery of it by continuing to ask, "What is the pattern? Can anyone articulate for me what the pattern is?"
In Titus 2 that the Grace of God teaches us to live sober righteous and godly lives looking for the second coming of Jesus.
That is a pattern of thinking that we are to follow. The Grace of God does not teach what some TV and radio preachers teach that Christianity is the ultimate feel good about yourself trip.
In I John 2 the Spirit of God says do not love the world or the things in the world - and gives the reason that the world and its works will pass away and those that walk by the will of God abide forever. Another pattern of thinking that we are to follow. The things in the world include the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
In II Pet 3 the inspired apostle tells us another firm and sure pattern of behavior to follow - living in holy conduct and godliness looking for the day of God. We don't know when the Lord will return so we should live in a constant state of being ready for the judgement.
In II Pet 3 the inspired apostle tells us another firm and sure pattern of behavior to follow - living in holy conduct and godliness looking for the day of God. We don't know when the Lord will return so we should live in a constant state of being ready for the judgement.
Sure hope God doesn't catch me singing those girly songs, clapping and swaying and making so much noise I don't hear the trumpet.
The Great Baptizmo, I now recall that you were one of those "one-liner" guys. LOL. You remind me somewhat of Brian Cade as that seems to be one of his methods of critiquing posts.
But thanks for bringing up "aka Bible Church." Not quite, though. I've heard of the "Bible Church" religion or deminational group. [We have an "assignment" for you, Baptizmo: Would you research the "Bible Church" founder? Thanks!] So, this gives me a chance to make a distinction between "Bible Church" as a religious group and a school (i.e., "of the Bible").
"A community, qahal in Hebrew, is a Jewish community of any size. The qahal was a well established concept and was called an ekklesia in the Nazarean Codicil. In English we translate the Greek ekklesia as church. So, whenever we see the word church in our Nazarean Codicil's, we should have in mind the concept of a qahal, a community or congregation.
The Septuagint uses the word Ecclesia seventy times when it translates the Hebrew word: kve (qahal could also be spelled Cahal), from which we get our English word call. It means to call together, to assemble, or gather together.
The synagogue serves the same purpose for a community that the Temple served for the nation. (Greg Killian)
From this midrash we learn that the study and application of the scriptures and the oral law, are the work that a group of people put in to establish a qahal. However, without a structure to impart this wisdom, the qahal will not prosper. The structure that establishes and prospers a qahal is the synagogue.
The outlawed alarm which Judas would try on Jesus was:
Ruwa (h7321) roo-ah'; a prim. root; to mar (espec. by breaking); fig. to split the ears (with sound), i. e. shout (for alarm or joy): - blow an alarm, cry (alarm, aloud, out), destroy, make a joyful noise, smart, shout (for joy), sound an alarm, triumph.
The assembly was for hearing the Words of God:
Specially the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children. Deut 4:10
That's THE pattern: The Lord's supper is to PREACH or show forth the Death of Christ:
Re: The Spirit OF Christ ordained The Qahal, Synagogue, Ekklesia or Churche of Christ.
April 15 2012, 5:08 PM
Brian,
You have already figured it out. Problem is that your alignment is with the change agents and their influence on you and others is apparent.
But thanks for asking -- it allows us to explain it to those unfamiliar with any of the Restoration Movement principles and/or to those who no longer fully accept the New Testament as THE PATTERN (guide).
Re: The Spirit OF Christ ordained The Qahal, Synagogue, Ekklesia or Churche of Christ.
April 15 2012, 5:56 PM
It's been said that the King James Bible has been written at the fifth grade level. Can you not read and understand the KJV New Testament at that level?
If you were unable to read, there would be good reason to explain the pattern, but since you ARE obviously capable of reading, then as Phil. 2:12 states, "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (KJV). You begin by reading and obeying what is taught in the New Testament. Simple enough.
Re: The Spirit OF Christ ordained The Qahal, Synagogue, Ekklesia or Churche of Christ.
April 16 2012, 2:20 AM
"And, behold , a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying , Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil .But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying , Sendher away ; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said , I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.Then came she and worshippedmhim, saying , Lord, help me.But he answered and said , It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.And she said , Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt . And her daughter was made whole from that very hour." - Matthew 15:22-27
One would think that anyone claiming to be a Christian would be able to answer a simple question in all seriousness and with love.
Re: The Spirit OF Christ ordained The Qahal, Synagogue, Ekklesia or Churche of Christ.
April 16 2012, 8:03 AM
One would think that a person who sincerely wants to learn the pattern and is capable of reading would read the New Testament when others who already know the pattern tell him that's how they learned the pattern. Simple enough.
John 15 tells about the pattern of life that we are to have. To abide in Christ the true vine and abide in his words. To keep his commandments is a must to abide in his love. How do progressives abide in the true vine?
John 15/16 say that the world will hate us and that some will be cast out of the synagogue. Where are the progressives on that mark of true Christianity?
The words of Christ go on to say that the religious people of that day "did not know God". Did the many religious books and seminars today demonstrate they know God and the Bible?
Re: The Spirit OF Christ ordained The Qahal, Synagogue, Ekklesia or Churche of Christ.
April 16 2012, 5:24 PM
Let me re-phrase this a third time - what are the particulars of the pattern we're supposed to follow? If it is that important, seems like someone ought to be able to explain it.
Re: The Spirit OF Christ ordained The Qahal, Synagogue, Ekklesia or Churche of Christ.
April 16 2012, 6:12 PM
Let me state this a third time: Read and study Christ's teachings and those of the apostles in the New Testament. If a person has decided that it really is important for him/her to know the pattern, then it seems like that person would be willing to go directly to the one Source where that pattern can be found. Simple enough.
Of course, we can continue with the various restatements and rephrasings.
Maxey FoundationThe change agents teach that pattern theology is an abomination;
God told Moses to make all things according to the pattern, and gave very clear and explicit instructions for how services were to be conducted in the OT. If the NT were a pattern for how we are to worship (which it nowhere claims to be) wouldnt we find the same rather than bits and pieces of it sprinkled across a bunch of letters leaving us to put together and figure out? If the NT is such a pattern it is a very elusive one.
Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Hebrews 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained,
.....the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Hebrews 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present,
.....in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices,
.....that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Hebrews 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
Hebrews 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts,
.....whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin,
.....are burned without the camp.
Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Hebrews 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Jesus invites the TWOS and THREES (a synagogue might have 10) to come OUTSIDE of any worship RITUAL and Rest and "Learn of Me." That is the CENI. Jesus OUTLAWED anything Christ had not taught in the Prophets and He had not made more certain.
Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
Hebrews 13:15 By him therefore let us
.....offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually,
.....that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Hebrews 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not:
.....for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
.........Isaiah 57:3 But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore.
.........augrtrix , cis, f. id., I. a female soothsayer or diviner
.........Soothsayers: Anan (h6049) aw-nan'; .....
.........i. e. practise magic: - * bring, enchanter, Meonemin, observe (-r of) times, soothsayer, sorcerer.
.........Isaiah 57:4 Against whom do ye sport yourselves?
against whom make ye a wide mouth, and draw out the tongue?
are ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood,
.........ludo to to SPORT play at a game of some kind: ESPECIALLY to play on an instrument of music,
.........to make or compose music or song: ludere quae vellem calamo [pipe] permisit agresti, Verg. E. 1, 10:
God is pleased with the fruit of OUR lips when HE supplies the FRUIT: in Isaiah 58 Christ outlawed seeking our own pleasure (instruments have no other purpose) or speaking our own words. That would stop any person OF TRUTH from thinking that they have anything of value for which others should support him. Paul called them robbers who were not willing to suffer and serve.
.........Isaiah 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips;
.............Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near,
............saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
1Corinthians 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest;
.........and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne,
and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision,
.........which worship God IN the spirit,
.........and rejoice in Christ Jesus,
.........and have no confidence in the flesh.
WORSHIP IS ON YOUR FACE CONFESSING JESUS CHRIST.
Spiritual worship is REJECTING any of your evil imagination and GIVING HEED to Christ's Word
WHAT IS NOT CONDEMNED BUT IS THE MARK OF THOSE WHO HAVE AN EVIL SPIRIT. He does not have to forbid people who have any inclination to try to TRUMP the Word of God in song and sermon. They are lost already.
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice,
.........If any man worship the beast and his image,
.........and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
.........and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image,
.........and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
THE BEAST DOES NOT HAVE FOUR LEGS: THE BEAST IS THE MUSICIANS WITH A NEW STYLE OF MUSIC AND DRAMA.
How many times does it have to be explained to you that the New Testament is THE PATTERN or the GUIDE?
"Pattern" is defined as:
-- [n] a model considered worthy of imitation;
-- [n] something regarded as a normative example;
-- [n] something intended as a guide;
-- other synonyms: blueprint, design, form, formula, diagram.
The "particulars" that you are looking for are contained in the New Testament, THE PATTERN.
I have given you a few examples of these particulars. So, I'll briefly explain them to you -- again:
Particular -- Baptism: The conversion process that one who is outside of Christ goes through includes baptism, besides hearing the truth, believing in the Son of God, repentance. Forgiveness of sins does not occur prior to baptism as one is BURIED with Christ in BAPTISM and is RISEN with Him to begin newness of life (Acts 2:37,38; Romans 6:4; etc.). The Greek translation of "eis" (or unto, into, in order that, so that) clarifies the question if forgiveness of sins occurs prior to baptism. The correct context is that after belief and repentance, one is baptized so that or in order that his sins be remitted in the blood of the Lamb. That demolishes man's pattern that one is saved prior to baptism.
Particular -- Office of Elder: The church does not create its own organization as the Roman Catholic Church has done progressively with its hierarchy -- the "infallible" POPE, the cardinals, archbishops, etc. The qualifications of the office of an elder are listed in I Timothy 5; Titus 1; etc.
Particular -- Christian Living: After one has been converted to Christ (after baptism) and as a member of the body of Christ (His church), he is to love God and neighbor; do good works as "faith without works is DEAD" (James 2:17,24; Matt. 5:16; Titus 2:7,14; II Tim. 3:17; etc.; to remain faithful (Rev. 2:10). This demolishes man's opinion that God's grace [often misused and abused] covers it all -- and there's nothing to worry about: backslide, etc.
I think I have repeated these particulars a few times already. Have you even read them?
In essence, the church does not resort to other sources (man's philosophy, books on psychology and psychoanalysis, the Koran, religious magazines, denominational creeds, etc) for any pattern or guide. The New Testament is THE PATTERN for the New Testament Church and for New Testament Christianity.
If you're thinking of other "particulars" that you would like discussed, please identify them, and we'll try to show you from the right and only source -- the New Testament, again, THE PATTERN that is all that we need.
P.S.: Sorry, if I was under the assumption that you were familiar with teachings in the church of Christ and that you were familiar with the Restoration Movement principles. It appears that you are not.
I'll give you my impression: Brian does know the teachings of the church of Christ, which are the teachings of the New Testament--the pattern--but he wants a detailed description of the pattern so he can argue about it, or possibly even deny it. We keep telling him to read and study the New Testament, yet that seems to turn him off; instead, he demands that we "tell" him the pattern.
I was giving Brian the benefit of being able to explain his stance. He could very well say he is a member of the church of Christ and is familiar with the history of the Restoration Movement and its principles. But, to qualify that further by stating that he is in reality affiliated with the neo-church of Christ {as restructured by the change agents).
We can trace this attitude from when Brian was endlessly attacking Ken Sublett for exposing musical idolatry and other performances now practiced in a few congregations that have strayed away from the truth, not realizing that Ken is the closest among us, based on his study and research, to providing facts that biblical history has already recorded. Ken is here with us to research in great depth what our Restoration Movement forefathers have just scratched the surface -- thanks to the WWW!!!! that wasn't available at the time.
I was just waiting for Brian to state that baptism is only a symbol or a ritual -- and not really a requirement; that as Max Lucado (a pro- or former Baptist minister) would say: "accept Christ as your personal Savior" and you are saved [your sins are forgiven] right then, and "be baptized" later on just to perform the ritual.
I can go on with other teachings to which the change agents now adhere -- which are contrary to those found in the New Testament. (I am using baptism here as one example.)
It is the change agents that have questioned "the pattern," actually meaning that they want to go beyond what the New Testament teaches.
Brian has probably encountered for the first time the amount of time and effort we have expended on this site to expose "The Acts of the Change Agents" -- not to be confused with the N.T. book, "The Acts of the Apostles?." Didn't know they were in real existence operating in the brotherhood, aiming to restructure the church of Christ, modifying its teachings, rewriting the history of the Restoration Movement, Brian?
You assume too much. You've never asked me what my belief on baptism is, and for purposes of this discussion, my belief on baptism is irrelevant. We're discussing the pattern a Christian is to follow. You tell me that the New Testament is the pattern I'm supposed to follow, but that doesn't make any sense because there is at least one command in the New Testament that is impossible to follow (2 Timothy 4:13). Further, when I ask for clarification, you act like its an imposition. Do you really understand what you're doing?
When I assume and the assumption is incorrect, shouldn't that be enough for you to be responsible for making the correction? I have used the word "assume" as a preface or an invitation for you to speak your mind.
I've mentioned the word "baptism" in so many different ways to give you all the chances to agree or rebut. Why haven't you done either one -- agree or rebut?
What have I heard from you? NOTHING!!! So, is that supposed to mean that you agree on baptism?
Now, you are asserting that your belief on baptism is irrelevant??? It certainly is irrelevant. It is you claiming to be trying to know more or to understand better "the pattern." Baptism is a very significant part of the conversion process. And the process or plan is explained in the New Testament.
Your quote of II Tim. 4:13 is ludicrous in defense against the New Testament as the pattern -- not any less than quoting a preceding verse: "Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry."
Try again.
It is becoming more and more apparent that your alignment is with the change agents -- perhaps unbeknownst to you at first -- until you discovered this website and other conservative websites. You are not ignorant or dumb. You just do not question the objectives and goals of the change agents who argue that there is no pattern for the church; that there is no pattern for conversion; that there is no pattern for Christian living.
Again, Brian, the New Testament is the answer to your and any other doubter's questions.
Surely, "Take Mark, and bring him with thee." (II Tim. 4:11)
Surely, "The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments." (II Tim. 4:13)
I still believe you are not ignorant nor dumb. Just ... um ....
Surely...Brian is not telling us that he can't distinguish between New Testament passages that narrate chronological events or biographical sketches vs. those passages that reveal the explicit teachings of Christ and the apostles.
If Brian fixates on 2 Tim 4.13 as his prime example why the New Testament cannot be the pattern to follow, then he really is deliberately trying to be obtuse for the sake of perpetuating ludicrous arguments.
Nevertheless, it is rather interesting to see how low the change agents will stoop to mock the New Testament.
The New Testament isn't a "pattern." It is instruction for followers of Christ that must be read carefully.
5 steppers operate on the principle of eisegesis of the text in order to PROVE what they have been taught by their DENOMINATIONAL "non-denominational" brotherhood.
The 5 steps of salvation and the asinine instrumental issue are not found in God's Word.
=======================
Original "Your Name": "The Crumptastic Great Baptizmo"
Edited only the "Name" -- too long for the forum's page editor.
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Apr 22, 2012 1:07 AM
A college student enrolled in a particular course, took copious notes from the professor's lectures, and read his textbook. At the end of the course, the professor gave an examination, for which the student felt that he was well prepared. The student assumed that the exam would be nothing more than a simple regurgitation of facts to run-of-the-mill questions.
But the exam questions required the student to list various characteristics, properties, and traits about items in the course. This took the student by surprise, because the professor had never given any explicit lists in the lectures, nor were there any lists in the textbook. The student was at a loss about how to answer the questions correctly and therefore received a poor grade on the exam.
The student felt that the exam was unfair, and he complained to the professor about his poor grade.
"What's the idea of making up an exam with LISTS anyhow?" raged the student. "You never mentioned one word about LISTS in your lectures, and there are no LISTS in my textbook! Your exam is unfair and did not cover the material in your lectures!"
"Upon what basis do you claim that the exam didn't cover the lecture material?" replied the professor. "Everything on those exam lists can be found either in my lecture notes or from the material in the textbook. The lists tested to see how well you could assimilate the material and summarize it neatly. Evidently you didn't know the material well enough. You should have studied more diligently."
The student stomped out of the professor's office and thumbed through his notes and book again and compared them with the exam questions. Sure enough, although there had been no lists in either source, the answers to the exam were staring him in the face. The student just hadn't taken the time to assimilate the material well enough.
Some people react similarly to Jesus' requirements for salvation. They reason that since there is no explicit "1-2-3 list" in the New Testament about what Jesus requires for salvation, then it is wrong for man to make any kind of "list." Yet throughout the New Testament, Jesus and His apostles have issued explicit requirements for salvation. Those people who diligently study the teachings of Jesus and His apostles will become familiar enough with those requirements such that they can neatly summarize them in a list for easy reference. Yet other people in rebellion against Jesus will scoff at such a list and denounce it as "man-made."
To the scoffers, remember these bits of information: The terms "Bible" and "Holy Bible" are also "man-made." God never uses those terms at all in His written Word, yet the Christian world readily accepts them. Dividing the Bible into chapters and verses is also "man-made." God did not do that, yet the Christian world readily accepts that as well. The point is that there is nothing wrong with calling God's Word "Bible/Holy Bible," nor is there anything wrong with dividing the Bible into chapters and verses. Doing the latter makes it much easier to refer to the Bible's contents. Likewise, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making a list of Christ's and His apostles' teachings about what is required for salvation. Such a list only makes it easier for people to know how to be saved.
--From "Christ's Requirements for Salvation," by Dr. Bill Crump
My point being that, if there is a pattern to follow, there's got to be more to it than "Read the New Testament and figure it out." God not being the author of confusion, one would hope that such a pattern is simple and could be easily explained. I can understand Acts 2:38 just fine; but what is the follow-up to that? Life goes on after conversion.
You seem to imply that the New Testament is too difficult to understand, given that the KJV, for example, was written at the fifth grade level.
You also seem to be looking for other "sources" beyond the New Testament for learning how to be converted and live the Christian life.
Since you know that God is not the Author of confusion, you should also know this: "But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Heb. 11:6 KJV).
And where is the FIRST AND ONLY place to go to learn about what God requires to become a Christian and remain a Christian? The answer, of course, is the New Testament. That answer is so simple that many people scoff at it and say, "There's got to be more to it than 'Read the New Testament and figure it out.'"
Galatians 5 declares the fruit of the Spirit - a pattern in life that all of us are to strive for.
Colossians 3 says that we are to conform to the image of Christ -is that not a pattern to strive for? It also says to do all word and deed in the name of Christ - doesn't that make Christ the pattern?
It seems to me hat the pattern issue comes from a mindset that is trying to enforce the values and judgements of society. Should the Church accommodate culture? I think not. In the Bible its the other way around. The values and pattern in the scripture is to be conformed to by humans. In Luke 9 we are taught that we are to take up our cross and lose our own life. Its not mans will and pleasure that counts but Gods will that is the pattern.
Judges 17/18 tells a sad story of one Micah who tried to have "religion" both ways - that of truth and that of idols. Ridiculous and corrupt behavior are identified in the book along with the comment "there was no king in Israel" and "every man did what was right in his own eyes" Is this not a similar situation today if we insist that there is no pattern and everyone can worship and live before God in whatever way he wants?
In Proverbs 1 it says that those who hate knowledge and do not choose the fear of God will bear the fruit of their own decisions. The same chapter says those who listen to God will be safe. This seems very plain to me.
Good thought: the pattern is Jesus Christ in his humble humanity.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, {the Jews]
he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
God's predestinated pattern is Jesus Christ and when you set forth musical or theatrical performers they will automatically be conformed or repulsed by them
Can you list each of the particulars of this pattern, and specify the parameters of it? If faithfulness to God consists of following a pattern contained in the NT writings, then it behooves us to know exactly what that pattern is.
After reading this thread, I am reminded of the quote by Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, who when deciding a case involving hard core pornography in the 1960's stated that he could not define it, but "I know it when I see it." I think that is why many who advocate for a pattern are unwilling to state what the pattern is, other than to state that "it is the New Testament." One need only look at the divisions among those who advocate for pattern theology, people who are sincerely seeking the pattern of the New Testament, to see just where this leads. Countless divisions can be seen among these seekers with everything from class rooms, kitchens, gymnasiums (family life centers), number of cups for communion, style of worship, etc. I would state that most are true sincere seekers, but are led in different directions and to different conclusions by the same pattern. Thus, the question arises of why does this pattern, honestly followed by believers, lead to different destinations? And why do those who reach one conclusion, feel compelled to belittle those who reach a different conclusion than themselves? It is a simplistic mind that would argue that they are the only ones to follow the pattern correctly and yet be able to state just what the pattern is. The fear among them is that the true result of their "following the pattern" would be exposed for what it really is, that they themselves have no clue what the pattern is, even though they feel that they "know it when they see it."
A Progressive Church of Christ takes the legalistic, sectarian, hypocritical PATTERN and then ADDS Ruffles and Flourishes and praise teams wearing ruffles and flourishing by stealing from the widows and hard working lawyers.
They won't give up the NOT-COMMANDED, NOT-POSSIBLE in the Bible "Singing as an ACT (that legal thingy).
They won't give up that NOT-COMMANDED sermonizing as an ACT of worship.
They won't give up that NOT-COMMANDED Unfunded-everything.
Here is the test: If you can SEE it, SMELL it or HEAR it, that ain't it.
Lk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Tom: here is your assignment if you choose to take it: you must find a safe house and hire lots of guards first.
Brite School of Reading 101A only Ph.ds in Theology or Music or Drama performing as preachers need apply
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Apr 22, 2012 12:58 AM
With due respect, your argument against the pattern is exactly what the change agents are proposing. You can make a long list of differences within and among churches of Christ, but these are non-substantive differences, meaning, e.g., that the observance of the Lord's Supper is not based on using a bucket or multiple cups to contain the fruit of the vine.
Even without specifying that Jesus Christ is the pattern for our lives and that the New Testament is the pattern or guide for Christian living, it must be evident that we do not seek the pattern from human philosophy and wisdom, the psychology on individual differences, the Koran, the Mosaic law, etc.
Otherwise, we would be no different from the Roman Catholic Church that has departed from the truth as it considers that human, papal-decreed traditions are NO LESS AUTHORITATIVE THAN the Scripture.
The real division occurs when change agents are changing [pun intended?] and modifying God's design for conversion, restructuring the church, no longer stressing the truth that the New Testament is indeed plenary and is in no need for supplementary materials and resources for the Christian to find the true path to Christian living.
Reject or ignore the New Testament as the pattern, and what do we really have?
If a member of the church of Christ argues against the pattern, and if that argument is exactly what the change agents are proposing, then isn't it quite logical to conclude that this member is indeed a change agent?
People have argued or balked against the pattern--the New Testament--all through this web site. "Change agent" has been defined all through this web site.
If your answer is "Where"? then you haven't read enough here.
-- The New Testament Pattern
-- The New Testament Pattern for Church Leadership
-- Restoring the New Testament Pattern
-- God's Pattern for the New Testament Church
-- The Pattern of the New Testament Church
-- New Testament Pattern of Christianity
-- The New Testament Pattern of a Plurality of Elders
-- The Lord's Supper--the New Testament Pattern
-- etc., etc., etc.
Are you that unfamiliar with the Restoration Movement and its "principles" and its history itself? Could that explain why you don't seem to be knowledgeable of such expressions?
Well, you might as well "get used to" it. Recall what the initial post of this thread said? "Just curious - what is the pattern we are supposed to follow?" So, the poster has heard of the expression. And I think you now have.
I posted this earlier:
"Pattern" is defined as:
-- [n] a model considered worthy of imitation;
-- [n] something regarded as a normative example;
-- [n] something intended as a guide;
-- other synonyms: blueprint, design, form, formula, diagram.
Man's creativity must not be allowed when it comes to addressing God's design or plan, e.g., of man's redemption. Let me illustrate once again the conversion process as designed or patterned by God. We can do this by comparing man's pattern and God's pattern:
(1) Man's pattern is that: "You accept Christ as your personal Savior [meaning: simply "believe that Christ died for you -- and stop there], and you are saved." After [now that] you are/have been saved, be baptized sooner or later only as a symbol or ritual.
(2) God's design does not stop at "believing." The New Testament clearly illustrates that pattern. One outside of Christ must also repent (Acts 2:37,38). He that "believes and is baptized SHALL BE SAVED" (Mark 16:16); "... be baptized so that your sins will be forgiven" (Acts 2:38).
"Change agent" is self-defining.
For the change agent to present an argument or a case that there is "no pattern" indicates that he is familiar with expressions such as "the New Testament pattern." He just rejects it so he can advance his notion, e.g., that baptism is NOT essential to salvation. Once he convinces that baptism is not essential to salvation, he is then in agreement with the Baptist doctrine that "be saved NOW" by "accepting Christ as your personal Savior" and "be baptized LATER."
See the difference, Brian? Trust me, or do your own research, as to what other doctrines and teachings found in the New Testament that the change agents want to CHANGE. Funny, but not really, ... how that you've been aligned with the change agents and their ideas and teachings ... and didn't even know it.
The original question was "What is the pattern?" So far, no one has been able to supply an answer other than "Read the New Testament and figure it out?" What are the particulars of this pattern, if it even exists?
The answer has been given many times. It is "Read and study the New Testament," for the New Testament is the pattern. Yet when some people receive an answer they don't want to hear or read, they say, "You still haven't answered my question."
Yes, we have. You just can't or won't accept it.
BTW, those members of the church of Christ who argue against the pattern (the pattern that the change agents argue against) will also not accept the New Testament as the pattern.
Donnie, it seems very easy for you to dismiss differences in some Churches of Christ but have you ever spoken to someone or read material from those with different views from you on these issues? Believe me, for these brethren these issues are not "non-substantive." They will tell you that you are just as wrong (and bound for Hell) for worshipping in a congregation with a gymnasium or kitchen (such as Madison, even before the changes) as you condemn those who now worship with an instrument. The simple reason for your view is that, to you, these issues are non-substantive, just as the instrument is non-substantive to others. And I would dare say that each of these brethren (on all sides of each of these issues) believe that thy are following the "pattern" laid out in the New Testament.
Despite all the verbiage, no one seems to know the particulars of this pattern we are supposed to follow. I wonder, is the pattern given or is this a traditional doctrinal creed that has been elevated to the status of law?
We have repeated and repeated: in the words of those lying, cheating and stealing the church houses of widows (Scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites, performance preachers, singers, instrument players re Jesus) about PATTERNS.
Rubel Shelly used the mocking pattern while looking at a dress pattern (with his wife).
Now they cannot envision a PATTERN which does not include Scribes and Pharisees or STAFF on the pyramid (ziggurat) pattern (Rick Atchley) and Brian cannot grasp the pattern we have described over and overy.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
......All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore,
......and teach all nations,
......baptizing them in the name
......of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [Jesus Christ]
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever
......I have commanded you:
...... and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
SO THAT PATTERN WILL NOT CHANGE
A person is an enemy of Jesus Christ who can say, "Well, He did not say that we cannot hire a musician-preacher or use instruments to PRAISE God?"
The approved INCLUSIVE from the Church of Christ in the wilderness where the TEACHING resource which was the Word of God especially The Book of The Covenenat the musical idolaters rejected at Pentecost. That later included the PROPHETS who spoke by the Spirit OF (preposition) of Christ. What Christ called "the lying pen of the Scribes" should be studied as the ANTITHESIS of a God-centered assembly. The Scribes and Pharisees or hypocrites or "entertainment preachers, singers and instrument players" are the ANTITHESIS of a Christ centere assembly with the WORD as the only available resources.
Jesus followed the pattern as our example.
Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up:
......and, as his custom was,
......he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day,
......and stood up for to read.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city
......them that preach him, ......being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
1Timothy 4:11 These things command and teach.
1Timothy 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers,
......in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
1Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1Timothy 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee,
......which was given thee by prophecy, [teaching]
......with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
1Timothy 4:15 Meditate upon these things; [spaking and meditating IN THE HEART]
......give thyself wholly to them;
......that thy profiting may appear to all.
1Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself,
......and unto the doctrine; continue in them:
......for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself,
......and them that hear thee
THE CAMPBELLS AND ALL BIBLE STUDENTS UNDERSTOOD THE PATTERN.
Of Thomas Campbell: In 1839, from the "old brother, came an article on "The Divine Order for Evangelizing the World, and for Teaching the Evangelized How to Conduct Themselves." He started with the Great Commission in Matthew, and urged the necessity of teaching and preaching.
"Let the church then take up its Book and read and study it. The proper character of the church is the school of Christ, disciples, Christians. . . .
It must not shame its Master by its stupid, wilful, shameful ignorance of his Book."
He proposed for the Lord's Day a meeting of four hours, beginning at ten o'clock and a half-hour intermission between each two hours. An order of service is really suggested which provides at the close for assignments of study for the week and "a contribution of something to the common stock for religious purposes, as God has prospered him." WILLIAM HERBERT HANNA
Change Agent Says: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"
April 22 2012, 4:29 PM
No, Brian, "pattern" is not a traditional doctrinal creed. Human creeds are what the church is to stay away from. Without the pattern the Christian or the church is likely to embrace human creeds.
The change agents are the ones opposed to the pattern. They're very persuasive to gullible Christians by proclaiming their gospel that there is "NO PATTERN." Does it really make sense to oppose something that does not exist?
Again, I posted the following earlier:
"Pattern" is defined as:
-- [n] a model considered worthy of imitation;
-- [n] something regarded as a normative example;
-- [n] something intended as a guide;
-- other synonyms: blueprint, design, form, formula, diagram.
Brian, isn't a blueprint needed before constructing a building? Or, should the construction go its merry way without the design? What about making a dress or a suit?
Even in the Old Testament era, there was "a pattern of the altar of the Lord"; the "work of the candlestick was ... according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses"; "... that thou make them after their pattern...."
God's plan of man's redemption is a wonderful design. We find that pattern in the New Testament.
There is the New Testament pattern of the church leadership -- it is not based on a human org chart.
There is the pattern of good works in Christian living. "In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity" (Titus 2:7).
There is the pattern to follow to everlasting life. "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting" (I Tim. 1:16).
Right, the change agents reject the pattern by proclaiming their own pattern:
That women ["husband of one wife"] can be church leaders.
That elders can appoint those to become fellow elders.
That the Lord's Supper is also a "fellowship meal" of chips & drinks.
That God doesn't say "no" to mechanical music in the assembly.
That it's OK for the New Testament church to be a denomination.
That God's grace takes care of everything--misuse it, abuse it.
That faith saves now; be baptized later.
[There are more creative ideas of the change agents.]
Re: Change Agent Says: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"
April 22 2012, 5:36 PM
You misunderstand, Donnie. I know perfectly well what a pattern is. I understand the concept of a blueprint. What I don't understand is the refusal to provide the particulars of the pattern we are supposed to follow as Christians. "It's in the New Testament; if you can't figure it out, it's your fault" doesn't cut it.
Re: Change Agent Says: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"
April 22 2012, 6:07 PM
Brian,
Knowing "perfectly well what a pattern is" is a great step forward. We've repeatedly provided you the particulars which you've repeatedly failed to acknowledge. Let me put it in a different manner by asking you a few questions.
1) Do you believe in or that there is God's plan (the pattern) of redemption?
2) Do you believe in God's design (the pattern) for His church?
3) Do you believe in God's pattern for Christians towards life everlasting?
Just a few questions for now. If you do not agree that there is the pattern for the church, that there is the pattern of church leadership, that there is the pattern for Christian living ... please explain.
But if you agree (or even admit) that there is the pattern for each of those elements mentioned so far, we'll be glad to provide you "the particulars." We can start with the particulars regarding the process of conversion -- God's plan (pattern) of redemption. In fact, we've already done this.
Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern?
April 22 2012, 5:27 PM
A man had an appointment with a new doctor and walked around in the clinic looking for the doctor's office. Finally, he went to an information desk and asked, "Can you tell me where Dr. Smith's office is?"
The woman at the desk said, "Why, it's right behind you." The man looked around, then turned back to the woman and said, "Where's the office? Can't you tell me where Dr. Smith's office is?"
The woman looked perplexed and replied, "Sir, I just told you. Dr. Smith's office is the door right behind you."
The man just said, "Apparently no one knows where Dr. Smith's office is."
The woman summoned her supervisor and asked him to direct the man to Dr. Smith's office. "Sir," said the supervisor, "go in this door behind you. That is Dr. Smith's office."
The man just smiled and said, "Neither you nor this woman nor anyone else seems to know where Dr. Smith's office is."
The supervisor said, "Sir, do you have vision problems?"
The man said, "I see perfectly well. All I know is that nobody here knows where Dr. Smith's office is. I would think that in a clinic, an information desk would know where all the doctors' offices are."
And so the "conversation" went on and on and on without any progress. The more people tried to show the man where Dr. Smith's office was, the more the man denied it.
Of course, the man wasn't blind at all. He kept denying the location of Dr. Smith's office, BECAUSE HE REALLY DIDN'T WANT TO GO TO THE DOCTOR IN THE FIRST PLACE.
And so it is with folks who keep asking to see the pattern after others have told them time and again that THE PATTERN IS THE NEW TESTAMENT. These folks play a ridiculous game by appearing to be obtuse, then claim that no one can show them the pattern, because they really don't want to see or know the pattern in the first place.
Re: Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern? Where's the Pattern?
April 22 2012, 5:56 PM
That's called the ANTI-Christ pattern. The change agente (missed diaper 101a) planned in the beginning that they would never respond to anything which did not fit their agenda to restructure Churches of Christ under the "unity" ploy of the NACC. I had contact with the Jubilee patternism. You will have noticed that none of the "scholars" plaguing the once-Christian Bible Schools aid and defend the musicators but they will not respond even when you prove that Psaom 150 is the MAKING WAR with all of the prostitute's instruments and MAKING Soothsaying which connects both the instrumental noises with inspecting the stolen animals for flaws or signs.
That's just fine: Jesus will never toss anyone into the Lake of Fire without forcing them to get all of the nails in the coffin or get all of the dry wood collected.
Brian thinks he is being cute but he has a preplanned mission along with the old defunct spirits whom John called sorcerers as performance singers, instrument players and all of the tekne or religious Teknokrats best illustrated as the Jewish System which had a Covenant with Death and an agreement with Hell.
What is the pattern? It's simply this: obey the teachings of Christ and His apostles in the New Testament. Their teachings are requirements for salvation. The following is taken from an essay entitled "Christ's Requirements for Salvation" by Dr. Bill Crump.
Many people will say, "Jesus requires nothing from us for salvation," or they may say, "All we need to do is just believe/have faith, nothing more," or even, "Just trust in Jesus' sacrifice alone; don't bother obeying Jesus' commandments." Either these people really don't know that Jesus has issued specific requirements for salvation, both explicitly by Him and through His apostles, or their denominational traditions compel these people to deny Jesus' requirements for salvation. My purpose for posting is simply to summarize the requirements for salvation that Jesus and His apostles have stated in the New Testament. Some readers will see the validity of the summary; others will reject it for various reasons. Perhaps they will focus on one verse and ignore another verse that provides further meaning to a salvation requirement. Here are Jesus' requirements for salvation with example references from the King James Bible:
1. HEAR THE GOSPEL
"And the gospel must first be published among all nations" (Mark 13:10).
"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Rom. 10:14).
2. FAITH.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).
"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:31).
Faith is certainly a highly important requirement for salvation, but it is by no means the only requirement. Without faith, we cannot comply with Jesus' other requirements.
3. REPENTANCE.
"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord" (Acts 3:19).
4. CONFESS JESUS BEFORE MEN.
"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 10:32-33).
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Rom. 10:9-10).
5. BE BAPTIZED.
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16).
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38).
"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).
"The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21).
6. LIVE A CHRISTIAN LIFE IN OBEDIENCE UNTO CHRIST.
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15).
"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2 Thess. 1:7-9).
"Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Heb. 5:8-9).
The first five requirements deal with the conversion process. A person cannot be saved until he is converted to Christianity and obeys the Gospel. After obeying the Gospel, a Christian must continue to obey the teachings of Christ and the apostles for the rest of his life. Therefore, the sixth requirement comprises everything else that Christ commanded either explicitly or through His apostles (for example, observing the Lord's Supper, helping the needy, visiting the sick, love thy neighbor, doing good for mankind, assembling together for worship, etc.). Collectively, all six are required for salvation. Of course, Christ knows if man's compliance is done faithfully and willingly or just for show.
Therefore, Jesus requires that we hear the Gospel, followed by faith, repentance, confession, baptism, and a life of obedience from us before He will grant salvation unto us. Many people will argue that since these requirements are not conveniently listed together in one spot in the New Testament, they are not valid. But even if they were listed together, some people would then brand that a "legalistic list" and thumb their noses at it. People will also argue that obeying Jesus' requirements for salvation equates to personal works, that obedience "robs" Christ of His sacrifice, that baptism is dunking in water which can't "save" anyone, or a hundred other man-made excuses for circumventing what Jesus commands. The fact remains, however, that Jesus has issued certain requirements for salvation, either directly or through the apostolic epistles. It is up to us to decide whether we'll submit gladly and willingly, obey Him, and have the promise of salvation; or not submit, disobey Him, and have the promise of damnation.
Yes, there is a sequence -- logically and scripturally. For example, the remission of sins DOES NOT OCCUR PRIOR TO THE BURIAL WITH CHRIST IN BAPTISM and THE RESURRECTION WITH CHRIST.
Brian, do you believe in the man-made doctrine that: BELIEVE ["accept Christ as your personal Savior"] and you are SAVED [sins are forgiven] ... and BE BAPTIZED later?
Yes? (Then, prove it.)
No? (Then, why question the SEQUENCE like a change agent.)
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Apr 23, 2012 2:59 AM
They are numbered in the logical sequence in which they should be performed. For example, baptism certainly would be of no value if one had neither heard the Gospel nor believed, nor repented, nor confessed Christ before men.
Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"
April 22 2012, 11:52 PM
Brian, earlier I quoted references to patterns from both the Old Testament and the New Testament:
-- "a pattern of the altar of the Lord" [OT]
-- "according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses" [OT, NT also]
-- "that thou make them after their pattern" [OT]
-- "a pattern of good works" [NT]
-- "a pattern to them ... to life everlasting" [NT}
The change agents are the ones opposed to the pattern. They're very persuasive to gullible Christians by proclaiming their gospel that there is "NO PATTERN." Does it really make sense to oppose something that does not exist?
[For the rest of the message, cf. above post dated April 22 2012, 4:29 PM]
Brian's Response:
You misunderstand, Donnie. I know perfectly well what a pattern is. I understand the concept of a blueprint. What I don't understand is the refusal to provide the particulars of the pattern we are supposed to follow as Christians. "It's in the New Testament; if you can't figure it out, it's your fault" doesn't cut it.
Donnie's Response:
Re: Change Agent Says: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed" April 22 2012, 6:07 PM
Brian,
Knowing "perfectly well what a pattern is" is a great step forward. We've repeatedly provided you the particulars which you've repeatedly failed to acknowledge. Let me put it in a different manner by asking you a few questions.
1) Do you believe in or that there is God's plan (the pattern) of redemption?
2) Do you believe in God's design (the pattern) for His church?
3) Do you believe in God's pattern for Christians towards life everlasting?
Just a few questions for now. If you do not agree that there is the pattern for the church, that there is the pattern of church leadership, that there is the pattern for Christian living ... please explain.
But if you agree (or even admit) that there is the pattern for each of those elements mentioned so far, we'll be glad to provide you "the particulars." We can start with the particulars regarding the process of conversion -- God's plan (pattern) of redemption. In fact, we've already done this.
----------------------------------
OK, I'm no longer interested in your one-liner remarks. It's about time for you to respond like a good Christian doctrinal issues debater. [You see, Brian, if you were involved in a real 2-hour public debate, and you spent a total of 2 minutes out of 60 minutes allotted for your persuasive rebuttal, you would persuade no one. Well, maybe, except yourself.]
Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"
April 23 2012, 1:34 AM
I repeat; telling me where to find it is not the same as telling me what it is. I can read the New Testament and have done. What I want to know is - what is the pattern? You and others seem to think that it is self-evident. I don't find it to be so.
Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"
April 23 2012, 2:44 AM
Brian,
I am not telling you where to find it -- you're smarter than that. The problem is either:
(1) That you do not believe there is any pattern at all that the Christian or the church is to follow -- this is what the change agents are telling the gullible folks;
---------------------- or-----------------------
(2) That you know [or once knew] about the New Testament pattern for the church, the NT pattern of church leadership, the NT pattern for Christian living -- you just deny or reject the truth that God who designed his creation to perfection also has a design [pattern] for His NT church and pattern for NT Christians to follow.
I've been telling you and showing you what it is. Over and over again.
Now, would you answer the 3 simple questions above?
Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"
April 23 2012, 12:22 PM
You told me where to find the pattern then went on the attack when I asked you what the pattern is. Misdirection and vitriol are not explanations.You need to answer the question you are asked instead of deriding the seeker for his inquiry. If he knows already, why would he ask in the first place?
Brian, you are tolerated because you are a wonderful PATTERN to contrast with a Disciple of Christ: You are of such "Biblical Proportions" that I giggle all day!
It is an enterprise of noble daring to take our way to God; and the enjoyment of many other good things is within the reach of the lovers of righteousness, who pursue eternal life, specially those things to which God Himself alludes, speaking by Isaiah:
"There is an inheritance for those who serve the Lord." Noble and desirable is this inheritance: not gold, not silver, not raiment, which the moth assails, and things of earth which are assailed by the robber, whose eye is dazzled by worldly wealth;
but it is that treasure of salvation to which we must hasten, by becoming lovers of the Word.
Thence praise-worthy works descend to us, and fly with us on the wing of truth. This is the inheritance with Which the eternal covenant of God invests us, conveying the everlasting gift of grace; and thus our loving Father-the true Father-ceases not to exhort, admonish, train, love us.
For He ceases not to save, and advises the best course: "Become righteous," says the Lord.
Ye that thirst, come to the water;
and ye that have no money, come, and buy and drink without money. .....He invites to the laver,
.....to salvation, to illumination,
all but crying out and saying, The land I give thee, and the sea, my child, and heaven too;
.....and all the living creatures in them I freely bestow upon thee.
.....Only, O child, thirst for thy Father;
God shall be revealed to thee without price;
.....the truth is not made merchandise of.
.....He gives thee all creatures that fly and swim, and those on the land.
.....These the Father has created for thy thankful enjoyment.
What the bastard, who is a son of perdition, foredoomed to be the slave of mammon, has to buy for money, .....He assigns to thee as thine own,
.....even to His own son who loves the Father; for whose sake He still works,
.....and to whom alone He promises, saying,
....."The land shall not be sold in perpetuity," for it is not destined to corruption.
....."For the whole land is mine; "and it is thine too, if thou receive God.
"Behold," He says, "I have set before your face death and life."
.....The Lord tries you, that "you may choose life."
..... He counsels you as a father to obey God. "For if ye hear Me,"
.....He says, "and be willing, ye shall eat the good things of the land: "
..... this is the grace attached to obedience.
....."But if ye obey Me not, and are unwilling,
.....the sword and fire shall devour you: "
..... his is the penalty of disobedience.
For the mouth of the Lord- the law of truth, the word of the Lord-hath spoken these things.
But your Olympian Jove, the image of an image, greatly out of harmony with truth,
..... is the senseless work of Attic hands.
For the image of God is His Word, the genuine Son of Mind, .....the Divine Word, the archetypal light of light;
.....and the image of the Word is the true man,
.....the mind which is in man, who is therefore said to have been made
....."in the image and likeness of God,"
.....* assimilated to the Divine Word in the affections of the soul, and therefore rational;
but effigies sculptured in human form,
.....the earthly image of that part of man which is visible and earth-born,
..... are but a perishable impress of humanity, manifestly wide of the truth.
.....That life, then, which is occupied with so much earnestness about matter,
..... seems to me to be nothing else than full of insanity.
No trinitarian can understand that the Son of God is His Word: truth is revealed through parables to fool the Scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites. They use PHYSICAL images or IDOLS to define their godhead.
No Grace-Centered person need apply because even Jesus was not called a Son until he was baptized. They literally TAUNT God by saying that they know they are going to sin but GRACE has an obligation to save them: God hates instruments in the holy places and He hates those who sow discord being INTENTIONAL (their buzz word) in stealing your property and dividing your family and working witchcraft on your children.
Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"
April 23 2012, 9:48 PM
Brian,
I really believe I have told you several times what the pattern is. I may not be as patient as you would expect [although I think I have the patience of Job (almost)], but I am not deriding you for inquiring.
Since you feel that my response is wrong or insufficient or not what you're expecting or in disagreement with you, I am really, sincerely, asking you to answer the 3 simple questions I posed earlier:
1) Do you believe in or that there is God's plan (the pattern) of redemption?
2) Do you believe in God's design (the pattern) for His church?
3) Do you believe in God's pattern for Christians towards life everlasting?
If you do not agree:
1) That there is a/the pattern/design from God of man's redemption;
2) That there is a/the pattern for the church &/or its leadership;
3) That there is a/the pattern for Christian living ... please explain.
But if you agree (or even admit) that there is the pattern for each of those elements mentioned so far, I'll be glad to provide you, to the best of my ability, "the particulars."
This is not a trap; I'm just trying to figure out why you do not understand my answer [several times] to your question.
Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"
April 24 2012, 4:47 AM
Brian,
Thanks for responding. Your answer of "I don't know" to each of the 3 questions is not exactly what I was expecting from someone who's engaged in the discussion of doctrinal issues for quite some time now. I take it that you answered with all sincerity.
On that basis [no knowledge of the subject], the approach to discussing "a pattern" or "the pattern" is changing somewhat.
I think you agree on the definition of the word "pattern":
"Pattern" is defined as:
-- [n] a model considered worthy of imitation;
-- [n] something regarded as a normative example;
-- [n] something intended as a guide;
-- other synonyms: blueprint, design, form, formula, diagram.
I have provided examples of or references to patterns:
(1) The pattern of the altar of the Lord [several ref. in the OT]
(2) God's plan of man's redemption in the blood of the Lamb [throughout the NT]
(3) The pattern of living in Christ to life everlasting [I Tim. 1]
(4) God's design of His church, including its organization.
In order to know and learn about the particulars of a pattern, one must first identify which pattern or design or plan it is. For our purposes as Christians, we obviously identify the (any) pattern as a New Testament pattern -- which is our only written source. [The pattern of the tabernacle described in the O.T. is history, just as is the law of the Ten Commandments.]
Yes, there is the pattern of the New Testament church.
But ... the change agents are altering God's pattern of His church.
Yes, God has designed the process of man's conversion.
But ... the change agents are oversimplifying God's design of conversion with: "Be saved now; be baptized later."
Yes, there is the pattern for Christian living. While we are under grace, we are still responsible to remain faithful unto death.
But ... the change agents want you to believe that God's grace covers it all -- abuse it; misuse it.
It does not make sense to believe that there was no design to God's creation of the universe. There was a pattern when Christ established His church. God's plan of man's redemption has been perfectly designed so that there's God's part [grace, love, mercy] and man's part to follow God's directives for conversion.
With the proper understanding of the New Testament pattern (of "conversion" or of "church organization" or of "Christian living"), I think that we can now identify the pattern that we would like to discuss in more detail.
Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"
April 24 2012, 9:27 AM
Donnie, this is my post from earlier in this thread:
"Donnie, it seems very easy for you to dismiss differences in some Churches of Christ but have you ever spoken to someone or read material from those with different views from you on these issues? Believe me, for these brethren these issues are not "non-substantive." They will tell you that you are just as wrong (and bound for Hell) for worshipping in a congregation with a gymnasium or kitchen (such as Madison, even before the changes) as you condemn those who now worship with an instrument. The simple reason for your view is that, to you, these issues are non-substantive, just as the instrument is non-substantive to others. And I would dare say that each of these brethren (on all sides of each of these issues) believe that thy are following the "pattern" laid out in the New Testament."
While I have knowledge of the pattern concept, I am confused as to how a different pattern can be arrived by pattern theologies who read the same scriptures but yet come to different conclusions as to the actual pattern to be followed. Even among conservative Church of Christ members, a different pattern sems to exist in even fundamental issues (foe example, reelection of Elders, operation of the Holy Spirit, use of kitchens and family life centers). Again, it seems to me that for each individual Christian, the result of pattern theology happens to be whatever that particular person feels it to be, thus a problem for pattern theologists.
Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"
April 24 2012, 1:30 PM
Tom, the owners of this forum do NOT defend any kind of "patterns" which go beyond what Christ in the wilderness specificially INCLUDED and EXCLUDED. The Purpose Driving CM is to refute those who boast about "Infiltrating and Diverting" your church to make it into a "theater for holy entertainment." That was the stated purpose at Madison and they boasted about letting people think they were on a train to Birmingham but "we gonna switch their cars and take them to Louisville 'cause that's were we gonna take them.' Max Lucado and Lynn Anderson "learned them how" as Promise Keepers and then Purpose Driven.
Speaking of Thomas Campbell on Christian Union XVI
In 1839, from the "old brother, came an article on "The Divine Order for Evangelizing the World, and for Teaching the Evangelized How to Conduct Themselves." He started with the Great Commission in Matthew, and urged the necessity of teaching and preaching.
"Let the church then take up its Book and read and study it. The proper character of the church is the school of [175] Christ, disciples, Christians. . . . It must not shame its Master by its stupid, wilful, shameful ignorance of his Book."
He proposed for the Lord's Day a meeting of four hours, beginning at ten o'clock and a half-hour intermission between each two hours. An order of service is really suggested which provides at the close for assignments of study for the week and "a contribution of something to the common stock for religious purposes, as God has prospered him."
In XVII speaking of beginning Bethany college in 1840 (Millennial Harbinger, p. 340).
"Most infants from twelve to eighteen months old are capable of being instructed; so that at the age of two years they would be able to connect the idea of the heavenly Father with every object of delight and enjoyment; and thus not only become duly acquainted with the divine existence, but also with the delightful attributes of his nature--his power, wisdom, goodness and love."
Rick Atchley who learned all of the TRICKS from Max Lucado and the NACC wrote
Well, we discipled the children of those progressive churches
.....for a whole generation to grow past us Boomers.
.....They never heard the sermons we heard.
.....They never heard the rationale for a cappella music.
We sent them to youth rallies and Church of Christ events
.....with some of the finest Christian bands in the world.
.....We discipled our children to leave our Movement!
We TAKE the right to tell the world that these are blasphemers (saying that the Spirit of Christ said something He did not say) or that all of the instrumental noise in the Bible is called soothsaying, sorcery or witchcraft. It is a fact that God did NOT say, thou shalt not practice witchcraft. Witchcraft has always been facilitated by sound, sight, expectation or drugs and these were--in REAL HISTORY--best facilitated by the sounds of instruments which with the demon worshipers SPOKE for their gods (demons). David tried to AWAKEN his lyre so that he could AWAKEN the sun. Paul warned about this instrumental demon worship in 1 Cor 10 and Romans 10.
There is no way to associate CM with any of the right-wingers who are just as NOT bible literate as the Left wingers. However, the right wingers will never use deception (witchcraft usually female or effeminate) to steal the church houses of widows and hard working lawyhers.
In my library there are several books promoting the idea of small groups and how to be successful in that "ministry". In reading through these books one will get the idea that a pattern is being promoted and the reader is being pressed to follow that pattern. Setting aside the sunday evening sermon and congregational worship service is one part. Pushing attendees to open up about their personal life is another, eliminating "dry, lifeless worship" with small groups which leads to "community" and "authentic christianity" is one cardinal element of this pattern.
One such book "Go BIg with Small Groups - Eleven steps....." by Bill Easum and John Atkinson (Abington) gives quite a detailed pattern of how to set up and run a small group system. This is clearly a pattern book. Those who promote progressive ideas clearly have pattern oriented books and concepts.
Another similar book "Building a church of small groups" by Bill Donahue and Russ Robinson (Zondervan) gives a pattern of how to set up and run a small group system or "ministry". Plenty of pattern there.
These are the types of books that are available and have been influencing christians - most every one is available on Amazon.com
So when leaders of the progressive movements say they don't know of pattern they should stop and think of how they got to the present. By reading and absorbing the swill of the day - post modern based propaganda.
This defines the PATTERN they used to take over the church where Donnie attends.
Small Groups or Circles (witches do circles) are called Divide and conquer. Leaders come prepared with the fodder for the week and the intention is to "cut out of the heard" certain people able to be promoted into the "inner Circle" of Purpose Driven of the "facilitated."
This is witchery because the method tends to break down barriers and get people to "confess" and seek prayer and help. You can betcha that in such groups the "confession" is put on file and if you become a problem it will be used on you.
Erasmus wrote a wonderful article about the folly of the "confessional" where if you begin to be a problem you become the subject of a sermon and everyone then knows the secret.
Lynn Anderson led Max Lucado's groups into something quite identical to Promise Keepers which all came from exchurch of christ people. It's calles shepherding. Once you have reached a "flash point" you can go to the elders and threaten division if "Our Group Leaves." Lynn Anderson's Navigating the Winds of change has verbage directly from Wicca.
Joke: What is the difference between a conservative patternist and a liberal patternist?"
Answer: Oh, about 50 thousand dollars a year.
Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"
April 24 2012, 3:33 PM
The pattern consists of the teachings of Christ and His apostles in the New Testament, not on such external elements as gymnasiums, kitchens, family life centers, and other items the New Testament does not address. The people who insist on dragging those external elements into the pattern have allowed the worldly traditions of men to mislead them.
True pattern example: Worship God in spirit and in truth (taught in the New Testament, John 4:24).
False pattern example: If you worship in a building with a kitchen and a gymnasium, you're going to hell (man's tradition, not taught in the New Testament).
True pattern example: Sing and make melody in the heart (taught in the New Testament, Eph. 5:19).
False pattern example: Use instrumental music to enhance and accompany the singing (man's tradition, not taught in the New Testament).
Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"
April 25 2012, 4:12 AM
Tom,
I do not disagree with you that there are those in the church who get "depressed" and go "insane" over matters that do not amount to a hill of beans.
The controversy over the use of a bucket or multiple cups to contain the fruit of the vine is "non-substantive" [pun intended]. The spread of a disease or some other health concern over using the same cup for everyone should not go beyond its being just a cultural issue. While making it a doctrinal issue has caused certain brethren to alienate others (divisive we say), it's not an excuse or a reason for implementing or incorporating beliefs and practices foreign to the church of Christ Jesus.
I understand what you are saying about the kitchen sink, the indoor toilet [ ], the gymnasium, the church bus. They were controversial at the time or another. Now, the Mall. Yes, they're divisive to some, but not to others. These are "non-substantive" external matters -- literally. These are the kinds of issues that the leadership [of the elders] has the responsibility for. Perhaps, if the gymnasium facility did not serve its purpose for bringing young souls to Christ, it should be deconstructed?
We cannot equate these external matters (church building, church bus, indoor/outdoor toilet, kitchen, bucket/multiple cups, pews, carpet, etc.) with matters that affect our spirituality and our following God's directives for Christian living.
If these matters have been controversial and have caused the congregation or the church to divide, they should be "lessons learned" for us to be prepared to combat the change agents who are subtly operating in the brotherhood to infiltrate and subvert congregations. They have already succeeded in some of our mega congregations.
While change agents may differ from one another on certain matters, their overall agenda is to transform the church that Christ established into their own perceived pattern.
I understand the confusion regarding various interpretations of any particular pattern (church organization, the conversion process, discipleship, "worship," evangelization, etc.).
While this is to be expected -- as it is part of that human nature -- the issues we've been facing in the church in this post-modern era have been effected, thanks to the change agents who are out there infiltrating, dividing and acquiring congregations.
The change agents are no dummies -- they've known pretty well that the New Testament pattern has been a principle of strength all throughout the Restoration Movement. Now, they proclaim that there is no pattern in existence. Right, "you're happy; I'm happy -- so, there's not a problem."
Well, the change agents have done so much damage to the church. Since they are so anti-church of Christ, why don't they assemble and have conferences and unite and found their own church from scratch ... and call it "Community Church." But wait ... there is a denomination called "Community Church" -- in reality, a conglomeration of members converted from other churches.
Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"
April 25 2012, 12:40 PM
What the Campbell's were faced with and the "progressives" are still sowing discord over:
FOUNDATION OF CHRISTIAN UNION
Religious philosophers on the Bible have excogitated the following doctrines and philosophical distinctions:--
'The Holy Trinity,' 'Three persons of one substance, power, and eternity,' 'Co-essential, co-substantial, [129] co-equal,' 'The Son eternally begotten of the Father,' 'An eternal Son,' 'Humanity and divinity of Christ,' 'The Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son,' 'God's eternal decrees,' 'Conditional and unconditional election and reprobation,' 'God out of Christ,' 'Free will,' 'Liberty and necessity,' 'Original sin,' 'Total depravity,' 'Covenant of grace,'7 'Effectual calling,' 'Free grace,' 'Sovereign grace,' 'General and particular atonement,' 'Satisfy divine justice,' 'Common and special operations of the Holy Ghost,' 'Imputed righteousness,' 'Inherent righteousness,' 'Progressive sanctification,' 'Justifying and saving faith,' 'Historic and temporary faith,' 'The direct and reflex acts of faith,' 'The faith of assurance, and the assurance of faith,' 'Legal repentance,' 'Evangelical repentance,' 'Perseverance of the saints,'8 and 'Falling from grace,'9 'Visible and invisible church,' 'Infant membership,' 'Sacraments,' 'Eucharist,' 'Consubstantiation,' 'Church government,' 'The power of the keys,' &c. &c.
Concerning these and all such doctrines, and all the speculations and phraseology to which they have given rise, we have the privilege neither to affirm nor deny--neither to believe nor doubt; because God has not proposed them to us in his word, and there is no command to believe them. If they are deduced from the Scriptures, we have them in the facts and declarations of God's Spirit; if they are not deduced from the Bible, we are free from all the difficulties and strifes which they have engendered and created.
We choose to speak of Bible things by Bible words, because we are always suspicious that if the word is not in the Bible, the idea which it represents is not there; and always confident that the things taught by God are better taught in the words, and under the names which the Holy Spirit has chosen and appropriated, than in the words which man's wisdom teaches.
Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"
May 3 2012, 10:04 AM
Donnie, I apologize for the long delay in getting these thoughts down, it has been a busy couple of weeks. I understand what you are saying regarding "nonsubstantive issues," but they are only nonsubstantive to you. To those who believe in such issues, they are far from nonsubstantive. It is the same with your view on instrumental music and praise teams, to you they are very important, but to others, they are nonsubstantive and these folks are as dismissive of your views as you are of the anti-kitchen, anti-family life center folk. It all depends on your perspective and position on the issues.
You seemed to take offense at my use of the term Pattern Theology. It is a proper term used to identify a particular school of theological beliefs. It is a technical term not meant as a derisive thought. I find it interesting that Brian has asked several times for the pattern and the only response he seems to get is "it is in the New Testament," but no specific pattern is pointed out.. This brings us around full circle to the point that the pattern overwhelmingly seems to be what the particular individual thinks it is. Whether it is in a large congregational setting (with or without instruments and a praise team) to an isolated school of the Bible, all claim (and mostly sincerely) to be following some pattern set out in scripture. When certain members of this board chastise others for not doing exactly as they believe things should be done, and thus, not following the approved biblical pattern, they only do harm to those who are sincerely seeking to follow Christ and His commands.
Re: Change Agents Say: "Pattern = Traditional Doctrinal Creed"
May 4 2012, 4:52 AM
Tom,
Thanks for your messages. Always.
I speak of issues being non-substantive (one cup vs. multiple cups, kitchen, carpet, gymnasium, church bus, church pews, etc.) mainly because they're being used as reasons why the church divides or splits into different sects. But that is not the case. Truth is that these are not doctrinal differences in the church. They're all congregations of the church of Jesus Christ and still carry the name of Christ.
Let me give you an example of substantive issues. I think you can guess that I am going to use baptism. Baptism that is not according to the New Testament pattern of salvation is a major doctrinal issue and is, therefore, substantive.
I'm not disagreeing with you that individuals and churches have tendencies and the prerogative to follow what they believe to be the pattern. And this is probably what you expect me to understand as "pattern theology." I understand it, and that's fine with me. However, this is what the change agents would have one believe with no other purpose than to divert one's attention from "the New Testament pattern." Now, there is a colossal difference between these two expressions.
I would like to point out that "the New Testament pattern" is a principle that is normally associated with the Restoration Movement. The change agents are attempting not only to "restructure the church" but also to rewrite the Restoration Movement. They reject the principle of the New Testament pattern. If you review the various messages I have posted, you will notice that I have given examples of the New Testament pattern:
-- The New Testament pattern of the church (its establishment)
-- The New Testament pattern of church leadership
-- The New Testament pattern of salvation (conversion)
-- etc.
In fact, these are some of the main New Testament patterns that the change agents reject or modify. And the Change Movement agents are the ones who have an issue with the New Testament as our only guide, and they're causing the church to divide. (Well, it's really night-night time for me.)
If you would like to continue this discourse, please do not hesitate to do so. It's always a pleasure to have a civil discourse with you.
The word "liberalism" is often used to describe the teaching of those who trouble the Lord's church. Some are confused as to just what the term means. The word takes on different shades of meaning when used by different religious bodies. For example a liberal among us would probably be a conservative among Episcopalians or Methodists. A conservative Catholic would be a liberal among us. Even among our own brethren the word is used with different shades of meaning. It would mean something quite different to a change agent who teaches in a Christian University than to the preacher who is struggling to build a local congregation. This article will seek to clarify the meaning of liberalism as used among our brethren in this present generation.
What Liberalism Is Not:
1. It is not the use of newer or different translations of the Bible. All translations are the products of uninspired men. They vary in quality. Each has strengths and weaknesses. One can use a different translation and still be faithful to Christ.
2. It is not just a different interpretation or understanding of a verse or section of Scripture. Every student of the Bible will occasionally find a new understanding of some portion of Scripture.
3. It is not just a new or different idea we have not previously heard or held. None of us have fully mastered every thing in God's Word. All will on occasion find that he had misunderstood something of God's message.
4. It is not just the questioning of some fondly held view. God wants us to prove all things and hold fast that which is good (I Thess. 5:21). Like the Bereans we should always be ready to search the Scriptures to see if a teaching is true (Acts 17:11).
5. It is not just trying to honestly understand our past history. Much of what is repeated by word of mouth becomes distorted or embellished. To seek out the facts of what our forefathers did and believed is a noble endeavor.
6. It is not just using words or expressions unfamiliar to us. Anyone who has traveled among our churches in other nations knows there are dozens of ways to express a commonly held truth. The same is true here at home, although we don't always understand that.
7. It is not just doing the things relating to our faith and worship in a different manor or way than we are use to. For example when we pray we might kneel, or sit or stand, bow with our face to the ground or lift up holy hands and be praying in an acceptable manner so long as we petition the Father through Christ the one mediator (I Tim. 2:5). There are numerous ways to participate in the Lord's Supper; but so long as we gather on the first day of the week and partake of the bread and fruit of the vine in memory of the Savior's death, we have properly obeyed God.
Rather, Liberalism is:
1. A lack of respect for the complete and final authority of the Word of God which Jesus said will judge us in the last day (John 12:48).
2. It is a rejection of what the Bible claims for itself. God calls his book, a "pattern of sound words" (II Tim. 1:13). Liberals vehemently deny this truth.
3. It is a willingness to take liberties with the sacred things of God. It is a lack of love and respect for the church as the sacred body and bride of Christ (Eph. 1:21-22; 5:23-25). It holds no honor for the doctrines with which Christ adorned his bride.
4. It is a spirit that despises its brethren and that disparages great Christian leaders of the past. It treats with contempt those disciples who do not share their elitist views.
5. It is a desire to be something other than a simple New Testament Christians.
6. It is a longing to be like the world, to find acceptance with denominational scholars, schools and leaders. It embarrassed by the exclusiveness of the Master's teaching.
7. It is a willingness to exalt ones own opinions, ideas and feelings above the sacred Word of Christ.
8. It is a spirit of deception; pretending to be faithful members of the church of Christ, when in the secret recesses of their hearts they know such is not the case.
9. Rather than strengthening Christians and building up the church, liberalism erodes faith and undermines the kingdom of Christ.
This brief portraiture of a liberal is also an apt description of the change agents at work among us. They espouse and practice all the points mentioned above. For this reason they should be rejected even as all other liberals are rejected. JHWaddey
A few years ago, a singing group traveled the country, making a good living singing Twenty-six Miles Across the Sea. Today, change agents travel far and wide singing about 28 divisions among Churches of Christ. For them that mantra proves we are an unworthy group and that they with their ecumenical plan for unity are our saviors. A member of their team recently sent me the infamous list. It really shows how desperate change agents are to paint a false picture of their brethren in order to justify themselves in causing yet another division in the body. As we look at their list, note with me the distortions of their accusation
1. The Firm Foundation faction (1884). There was disagreement and discussion about whether those immersed without understanding the full purpose of baptism should be rebaptized. There was never an open break in fellowship. Though still discussed, the issue does not constitute a separate brotherhood.
2. Churches of Christ separation from Digressives (Sand Creek. IL, 1889). This was a declaration of one congregation declaring they would no longer fellowship digressives who were introducing instrumental music and missionary societies into churches. Had not that congregation and hundreds of others taken a stand against the apostasy of that day there would be no Churches of Christ today. All would be in the camp of the Christian Churches. This would be pleasing to our change agents. The fact is those wishing to have musical instruments and societies went out from us (I John 2:19). We continue to occupy the same ground as did the early leaders of the Restoration movement and the first Christians.
3. Black Churches of Christ. Outside of a few Black separatists, no such schism exists. Christians and congregations, be they Black or White, are brethren and fellowship each other.
4. Those opposed to baptistries (ca. 1900). While a few folks a century ago questioned the use of baptistries, I challenge the promoters of the list to find us even one congregation holding such a view today.
5. Those who insisted on an order of worship (1888). True, a tiny handful of brethren argued that Acts 2:42 provided an order of worship. They have long since died out. No such schism exists today.
6. Sommerism. Daniel Sommer was a strong minded, legalistic preacher who had a following that spread into several states. He flourished from 1890-1940. W. Carl Ketcherside led this group after Bro. Sommer's passing but he eventually swung to the opposite extreme of liberalism leaving chaos and confusion among his followers. The survivors, who describe themselves as mutualedification churches, still carry on but are small and few in number. Many of them enjoy fellowship with mainstream congregations.
7. Anti-Sunday School, anti literature and anti-women teachers were not three separate schisms but one. Such churches still exist but in many places now have fellowship with the larger brotherhood.
8. One cup churches. Some of the anti-Bible class churches also insisted on using only one cup in communion. They divided among themselves over such issues as "fermented or unfermented wine;" "whether the loaf should be broken by the one presiding or by the partaker." Of this group he lists, some who advocated "no plate for communion bread; some who debated whether "to have Or not to have a handle on the communion cup" and some that insisted that "communion must be taken around the table." That a legalistic splinter group should continue to divide among themselves is not the responsibility of the mainstream churches, nor should we bear the blame for their foolishness.
9. Premillennialism. In the 1920s a few preachers, led by Robert H. Boll, began to promote the false doctrine of premillennialism and found a following in a handful of churches. The brotherhood rejected their message and they were gradually excluded from fellowship. A few such churches exist today. Most have faded away.
10. In the 1950's a group arose that opposed cooperation of churches in evangelism, benevolent homes operated by the church and eating in meetinghouses. These are the only significant schism that has continued to flourish. Today there is some fellowship between members of the two groups and that will likely increase in coming years. Within this group was a schism led by Charles Holt and a more liberal minded minority.
11. In the late 1950s and 60s, W. Carl Ketcherside and Leroy Garrett, formerly of the Sommerite camp, swung to the opposite extreme of liberalism. They called for unity in diversity and embraced the Christian Churches and other denominational bodies in their fellowship. They worked unceasingly to influence and seduce young preachers of the [80] mainstream churches. The message of the change movement bears the stamp of these two false teachers.
12. Differing views on divorce and remarriage have been warmly discussed by preachers and writers from 1960 to the present. While differences were pronounced and convictions were deeply held, no separate body of people emerged over this issue.
13. Tongue-speaking and supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit were claimed by a tiny handful in the 1960s. Probably not more than a dozen preachers dabbled in this Pentecostal practice. All either left the church ceased to be used by our churches. No schism occurred.
14. Ira Rice's Contending for the Faith group. Bro. Rice led an on-going war against anything and anyone he perceived as liberal. His harsh and indiscriminate approach alienated him from most main-stream churches. Even many who opposed liberalism as much as he, refused to use or approve of his tactics. These brethren do not constitute a separate body of people.
15. The International Churches of Christ. This group otherwise known as the Cross-roads or Boston Movement were a group of young zealots who embraced a cultish program of control over their members. They flourished for some 20 years but now appear to be disintegrating.
16 To this list I will add The ChangeMovement. This is the merging and flowering of several past groups under a new banner. In its ranks one finds Ketcherside's Unity in Diversity disciples; those who yearn for a Pentecostalexperience; those who have lost their faith in the inspiration and authority of the Word of God, those who desire an ecumenicalfellowship with denominational bodies, especially with the Disciples of Christ and Christian Churches; those who have embraced the agenda of feminism and those who have been caught up in the philosophy of Postmodernism. The issues of this movement are virtual identical to those that led to the separation of Churches of Christ and Christian Churches a century ago.
The authors of the infamous list of schisms badly want to paint the Lord's Church as a flawed and failed movement that must be changed by their more enlighten group. The exaggerations of such a list are telling. While there have been issues and trends, actual brotherhood schisms amount to some eight rather than 28. While eight is too many and those responsible will have to answer to God for their actions, it is unfair and unreasonable to blame the church for the failure of some of her disgruntled members. To do so is like blaming godly parents who have raised six faithful children, for the failure of one child who has chosen to abandon the faith.
Ken, there are a few others which I would add to the list:
1. Deaver Doctrine - this is the controversy among former brothers in the "Contending for the Faith" crowd over the direct operation of the Holy Spirit during baptism.
2. Reaffirmation of Elders - this controversy arose from Bro. Jimmy Wren's congregation in Ft. Worth and deals with whether Elders should have a fixed term in office and then reappointed or removed from the Eldership. This controversy ties in with controversy over Bro. Dave Miller (a hero among conservatives until this issue arose) who was the minister at the congregation. This controversy has spread to include the Gospel Broadcasting Network and many conservative congregations.
3. Instrumental Music - More and more congregations identified as Churches of Christ have been adopting the use of instruments in at least some services.
I believe that the reason that there have not been more defined splits among our brotherhood is because there is no centralized authority over who is and is not able to use the title "Church of Christ." There is still a growing number of congregations, especially among more conservative congregations, who will not fellowship with those on the opposite sides of the first two controversies. Obviously, these congregations would have no fellowship with those in the third controversy.
1. Deaver Doctrine - this is the controversy among former brothers in the "Contending for the Faith" crowd over the direct operation of the Holy Spirit during baptism.
Not relevant: Deaver nor son has a clue about how to define A holy spirit. They think the spirit OF Christ is another people. John defines that as the mark of Anti-Christ
2. Reaffirmation of Elders - this controversy arose from Bro. Jimmy Wren's congregation in Ft. Worth and deals with whether Elders should have a fixed term in office and then reappointed or removed from the Eldership. This controversy ties in with controversy over Bro. Dave Miller (a hero among conservatives until this issue arose) who was the minister at the congregation. This controversy has spread to include the Gospel Broadcasting Network and many conservative congregations.
GBN is a product of the preacher's school and should never be suggested as "a church of Christ."
Dave Miller was probably trained to sermonize at a preacher's school: since there is no Role for a preacher in Jimmy's congregation and even, then there is no DOLE, that is just playing the old Perry Mason ploy. Undoubtedly the folly that God commanded instruments came from a preacher's school.
Reaffirmation of elders is about as old as me: that's old. Clement of Rome wrote a letter to the Ephesians because the deacons were squabbling about the authority of the presbyters. In fact, they were casting them out.
There is no process for ELECTING elders: Paul showed how to IDENTIFY those godly men "laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching. Since the elder is the only Pastor-Teacher in A REAL Church of Christ. Jimmy's church probably Self or Peer--selected their favorites and dared anyone to object. If they were elected that is politics and only SERVENTS are suitable to lead by "Teaching" only. There is no one authorized to operate an institution under the pirate's flag of "church"
3. Instrumental Music - More and more congregations identified as Churches of Christ have been adopting the use of instruments in at least some services.
I suggest that you give us some names. The changelings counted 28000 world-wide congregations but I would use the 18,000. At last count there were about 20 which used instruments as an "alternative" to steel sheep. I would say that maybe 4 or so use instruments at the PLENARY SESSION
I believe that the reason that there have not been more defined splits among our brotherhood is because there is no centralized authority over who is and is not able to use the title "Church of Christ." There is still a growing number of congregations, especially among more conservative congregations, who will not fellowship with those on the opposite sides of the first two controversies. Obviously, these congregations would have no fellowship with those in the third controversy.
Red Herring: if all of the preachers were demonic and all Churches of Christ were absolutely wrong on all of the issues, that would not change a jot or tittle of the Word of Christ. That the Levites performed exorcism during the worship of the starry hot, and that the Levites and David's dirty dance are the PATTERNS for all of the instrumentalists, fits PERFECTLY with the end-time prophecy of the Babylon Mother of harlots (Rev 17) using lusted after FRUITS (same as in Amos) as preachers, singers and instrument players who were called SORCERERS who HAD DECEIVED the whole world makes it possible for ME to be involved with something of BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS.
Christ INTENDED that the visible church be no larger than a single congregation. If a congregation is fulfilling their role as School (only) of Christ (only) they have more than they can take care of in their sphere of influence. Fire all of the clergy, shut down what Ezekiel called "workshops of evil where prophets steal words fron one another" and no one TAKE MONEY to worry about it.
THE SHELL GAME IS TO MAKE PEOPLE THINK THAT THE NUT IS UNDER ONE OF THE SHELLS. THE BIGGER THE SHELL IS TO PROVE THAT THE NUT IS UNDER THEIR TEMPLE (have you looked at Max Lucado's list of Ministers?)
Luke 18:6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect,
.....which cry day and night unto him,
.....though he bear long with them?
Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily.
.....Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh,
.....shall he find faith on the earth?
Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain
.....which trusted in themselves that they
.....were righteous, and despised others:
Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray;
.....the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,
.....God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are,
.....extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees (sermon and song writers, reachers), Hypocrites. He was quoting Isaiah and Exekiel 33 who named popular preachers, singers and instrument players. This was his MARK that people had no intention of hearing the Word. Most will never grasp that because most are WISE (sophists=rhetoricians, singers, instrumment playrs) from whom God HIDES himself.
Jesus said that the believers were GIVEN to Him as children: they are pilgrims and aliens in this world and are LOST and needed to be found. Isn't that spooky?
Tom said "Obviously, these congregations would have no fellowship with those in the third controversy."
If they withhold the hand of fellowship.....will God extend His hand to them?
All external elements put aside, we are not to fellowship with those who thwart, oppose, alter, or deny the teachings of Christ and His apostles in the New Testament:
"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds" (2 John 1:9-11 KJV).
Ken, thanks for the civil conversation, I enjoy it very much! I can think of close to 20 congregations here in Texas who have succumbed to the instruments. (And yes, I do believe succumb is the correct word.) They are mostly in the Houston, Dallas/Ft.Worth area, but also a couple in Austin. I will add that most of these are new congregations that sprung from existing Churches of Christ as plants. I will not publish their names because I do not want them to become targets.
The point that I probably did not make well, is that each of these divisions that we have listed come from people who claim to follow "the pattern," just as those from CM. I know that we disagree on whether the pattern is followed but they all seem to be sincere in their beliefs. I agree that it is wrong, wrong, wrong for a group to hijack a congregation and make major moves. Quite frankly, I am glad to see these church plants where the ground rules are known from the beginning.
As Ken has suggested, it would be best to identify which congregations have succumbed to the anti-church of Christ ideology that God is more pleased and accepting with than without "the noise" of mechanical music in the assembly.
I believe it is correct to state that of some 18,000 congregations of the church of Christ in the U.S., most of "the few" congregations, whose misleaders have yielded to the wiles of the Change Movement agents, are in Texas.
In the 2009 directory of churches in the U.S., it was reported that 4 of the 21 IM congregations still had a split in their services that still included acappella. Of course, we know that one of those 4 is the Oak Hills Church [dropped "of Christ"], your former congregation.
We would like to update the list we've had from a few years ago, and most of these are already in Texas, so as to avoid any overlap:
The Richland Hills Church of Christ, North Richland Hills, TX, Rick Atchley, minister
The Quail Springs Church of Christ, Oklahoma City, OK., Mark Henderson, minister.
Norway Ave. Church of Christ, Huntington, WV, Jeff Garrett, minister.
The Faithcross Church of Christ, (formerly Tomball Church of Christ) Tomball, TX.
Oak Hills Church (of Christ), San Antonio, TX, Max Lucado, minister.
The Farmers Branch Church of Christ, Dallas, TX, Chris Seidman, minister
The Northwest Church of Christ, Seattle, WA, Milton Jones, minister.
The Central Church of Christ Cocoa, FL. Don Adkins, minister
Metro Church of Christ, Orlando, FL, Don Holland, minister
Bridgeway Church (of Christ) Flowermound, TX, Art, McNeese, minister
The First Colony Church of Christ, Sugarland, TX, Ronnie Norman, minister
Congregations who have been "transformed" to using IM should have nothing to hide, if they firmly believe it is the right thing to do. They can always associate or affiliate themselves with the Christian Church or with the Community Church, if they're not already in either camp. In fact, that's where they should belong -- and not cause any more harm and division to the church.
21 out of 18,000 isn't bad. 99.88% is not bad. It should be higher than that, since many of these 21 congregations now affiliate or associate or identify themselves with the Community Church or even the Christian Church. Jesus had 91.67% of his original apostles not betray Him. [NOTE: It took a long time to convince Dave Fields that the church of Christ is virtually non-instrumental. Or, is he still not convinced?]
I used to do ekklesia by staying home as "shut in" to review Rubel Shelly's sermons before the "audience" got home.
Today's Sermons Today
He went through a long seris of sermons bad mouthing non-instrumental churches and saying that others see us as fire bombers or muggers of ladies wearing furs. Hitler told Gobeblls tha if you tell a lie long enough people will believe it.
All of the horror stories about SECTS were labeled with a world class collection of RACA words. "You are loosers" is till the mantra of those who don't know that the vandals have retreated and ready to make new jabs.
Their "scholarship" is a great laughing stock and indicts all of the confiscated colleges. Their ethics class was taught in the local prison. I helped buy Milton Jones a new and improved "house" which he confiscated by lying about all of the mentions of instruments. He ended up in Texas the mother of most division because of the work with angents of the NACC as preacher and university-handlers. Here is Patternist Ploy.
They call him Infiltrate and Divert. Donnie and CM turned him "lavender" wearing a tutu: you get the picture.
In order to TAKE THE AXE to the non-instrumental sectarians, I have made a list of 17 NEW sects which automatically EXCLUDES a large part of the owners.
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on May 3, 2012 3:58 AM
It's interesting that most of those few churches of Christ that have fallen prey to the change agents are found in Texas. If a church of Christ congregation is going to yield to the change agents, what in Texas would make them more likely to jump over the cliff?
If I ask ten different brethren what the pattern is, I get ten different answers. No two agree in every detail, which leads me to think that perhaps the notion of a singular pattern to follow is a false one?
There's an old saying: "All roads lead to Rome." Maybe some people actually believe that something like that applies in Christianity--"All patterns lead to Christ."
If Christ had guaranteed that every person who heard His Gospel would believe, follow, and obey Him, the question of "What is the pattern?" would not likely have ever been raised.
Which raises the question of free will; if it were a case of filling in the blanks or performing the proper actions in the correct sequence, then salvation wouldn't be the free gift that Paul says it is. God would be obligated to let us into heaven. Perhaps we need to rethink the notion that there is a set pattern to follow after all?
------------------------------------
If I ask ten different brethren what the pattern is, I get ten different answers. No two agree in every detail, which leads me to think that perhaps the notion of a singular pattern to follow is a false one?
------------------------------------
Response: The New Testament Pattern:
Earlier, we defined the word "pattern" [from an online dictionary] as follows:
[n] a model considered worthy of imitation;
[n] something regarded as a normative example;
[n] something intended as a guide;
other synonyms: blueprint, design, form, formula, diagram.
It is common knowledge that there is a design involved in constructing a website used by healthcare providers, by educational institutions, etc. A blueprint is necessary to build a gymnasium, a mansion, a high-rise apartment building, etc.
A question may be asked as to why there's so much "talk" (for or against) about the New Testament pattern in the church of Christ, but not in the denominational world. A brief response to that is the fact that Christendom overall is divided as hundreds and hundreds of religious sects and denominations have been founded by men and women [Helen G. White, founder, Seventh Day Adventist; Mary Baker Eddy, founder, Christian Science] through the centuries.
Notice some of the key principles and slogans that characterized the Restoration Movement:
"Christianity should not be divided, Christ intended the creation of one church."
"Creeds divide, but Christians should be able to find agreement by standing on the Bible itself (from which they believe all creeds are but human expansions or constrictions)."
"Ecclesiastical traditions divide, but Christians should be able to find common ground by following the practice (as best as it can be determined) of the early church."
"Names of human origin divide, but Christians should be able to find common ground by using biblical names for the church."
"Where the Scriptures speak, we speak; where the Scriptures are silent, we are silent."
"The church of Jesus Christ on earth is essentially, intentionally, and constitutionally one."
"We are Christians only, but not the only Christians."
"No creed but Christ, no book but the Bible, no law but love, no name but the divine."
..., etc.
In churches of Christ [until the Change Movement agents have begun in the criticism, negation, denial or rejection mode], the New Testament pattern is significant in dealing with issues regarding the church and its establishment, its beliefs and teachings, how its members are instructed in order to receive the promise of life everlasting in the end.
Consider the following questions, observations and assertions:
What is the New Testament pattern for the church?
What is the New Testament pattern of "ekklesia"?
What is the New Testament pattern for church leadership?
Is instrumental music a [vital] part [if at all] of the New Testament pattern for "worshiping God"?
What is the "pattern for music" in the New Testament church?
"Music in worship"--what is the New Testament pattern?
Is there no New Testament pattern for partaking of the Lord's Supper?
The New Testament pattern of church discipline....
What is the New Testament pattern of Christianity?
The change agents claim that there is no pattern found in the New Testament for the church.
The New Testament pattern is a plurality of elders in each local church.
The pattern of prayer in the New Testament....
Worship God in spirit and in truth, according to the pattern set forth in the New Testament.
The New Testament pattern of church government....
The New Testament plan of salvation....
The church, the body of Christ, is designed by God.
From the above list, we can deduce that there are various matters and issues that we can discuss individually in detail. Otherwise, we are obfuscating what "the New Testament pattern" is.
When we ask "what the pattern is," of course, we will "get ten [at least ... or more] different answers." The various posts are proof of that observation. What is the New Testament pattern of/for ... what? Let's be more specific as in ... well, take any one statement from the above:
What is the New Testament pattern of man's salvation?
What is the New Testament pattern for the church?
What is the New Testament pattern of church leadership?
What is the New Testament pattern for Christian living?
Re: Back to Square One: The New Testament Pattern 101
April 29 2012, 4:47 PM
Donnie, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that within the New Testament there are models of God's ideal for various aspects of life (prayer, worship, marriage, etc.). Is it better to say "What is the pattern for ____?", indicating a particular area of life rather than asking "What is THE pattern?"
Re: Back to Square One: The New Testament Pattern 101
April 30 2012, 4:41 AM
Brian,
Yes.
I would just complete the question as follows: "What is the New Testament pattern [of/] for _____________?" This is assuming that all the respondents are members of the church and are familiar with the principle that the church's teachings and practices are New Testament-based. Otherwise, it would be really difficult to discuss "the pattern" when teachings and beliefs are also based on other sources than the New Testament.
Other sources will have to be excluded: the Book of Mormon (although it is claimed to be another "testament of Jesus Christ"); the "sacred" writings of Joseph Smith or Ellen G. White; human creeds and councils; etc.
The initial question of "the pattern" that we're supposed to follow caught our attention because it [the New Testament pattern] is one of the principles that the change agents (undoubtedly very familiar with the Restoration Movement background and heritage) now criticize and reject. Be reminded that the change agents have SEVERAL other things and agenda to promote: a significant one being that the church of Christ Jesus is just another denomination. From that stems other anti-church of Christ agenda.
Perhaps, we can initiate a thread that deals with the New Testament pattern (or God's plan) of salvation. We can approach this subject from a broad perspective, but it may be confusing to many when God's grace or when "faith vs. faith and works" is discussed without "rightly dividing the word of truth." But there are ways to make the subject of salvation more understandable by the "tenses." Simply:
1) Past Salvation: The world [from sinner to converted: the process] -- grace, faith, past sins
2) Present Salvation: The church [now a Christian] -- grace, faith and works
3) Future Salvation: Destination [receive eternal life as promised] -- heaven/hell
Well, that's just one example, one topic. There are others.
From the following, we can see where Jay Guin, one prominent change agent, stands on the issue of "the New Testament pattern." We can also see his stance on the "present" salvation of a Christian -- simply note a couple of his expressions: (a) "seek to earn salvation" and (b) "a works-based theology."
"Patterns"! What could possibly be wrong with following a heavenly pattern? Everything. Flawed humans make copies from patterns, and seek to earn salvation by replicating something that is perfect. It can't be done. Pattern theology is necessarily a works-based theology. And if the Law of Moses was proven inadequate by its insistence on pattern-keeping, surely the same is true of any pattern-keeping. After all, the problem isn't the inadequacy of the pattern -- the pattern has always been perfect -- it's the inadequacy of humans to truly replicate the pattern! And we're just as imperfect now as the Israelites were then.
It appears that Jay Guin promotes that because of our humanity or humanness, reject or give up on any pattern, even God's pattern.
The change agents have other agenda. Now, let's see who's anti-church of Christ? What say you, David Fields?
When you repeatedly tell a person what the pattern is but that person keeps hollering, "What's the pattern? Where's the pattern? Show me the pattern, Awww there really ain't no pattern," then any "discussions" with that person will always fall back to Square One.
With certain people's mindsets the way they are today, I could just imagine the following scenario:
Jesus personally appears to these people and tells them that the pattern consists of His teachings and those of His apostles; if they obey His commandments and teachings, He will save them. The people thank Jesus, and He leaves. As soon as He leaves, those same people holler, "Awww, that was just His personal opinion! What's the pattern? Where's the pattern? Show me the pattern!"
These people are like the rich man's brothers in the parable in Luke 16, whom Lazarus said would not be persuaded, even if one rose from the dead.
Jesus rose from the dead, yet if people will neither recognize nor follow His pattern as written in the New Testament, they would not be persuaded, even if Jesus made a personal appearance.
It's also quite ironic that Dave would brand as anti-Christ a site that says the pattern is found in the New Testament, which contains the teachings of Christ and His apostles. I guess Dave is trying to tell us that the pattern lies elsewhere. Or if Dave thinks the pattern DOES reside within the New Testament, then he's just blindly hurling his mean-spiritedness at this site as usual.
Kinsley, David R. The Sword and the Flute: Kali & Krsna: Dark Visions of the Terrible and the Sublime in Hindu Mythology. Berkeley: U of California P, 1975.
A clown would stroll in with his livid, floured face, seat himself on the railing, and produce from his bulky pocket a flute which he began to play. At once the ringmaster appeared and intimated to him that here one could not play. The clown, unperturbed, stalked over to another place and stated again. But now the ringmaster walked up angrily and snatched his melodious toy from him.
The clown gone, and plunging his hand into his fathomless pocket produced another flute and from it another melody. But alas, inexorably, here came the ringmaster again, and from it another melody. But alas, inexorably, here came the ringmaster again, and again despoiled him of his flute. Now the clown's pocket turned into an inexhaustible magic box from which proceeded, one after another,
....new musical instruments of all kinds, clear and gay or sweet and melancholy.
....The music over ruled the veto of destiny and filled the entire space,
....imparting to all of us with its impetuous, invincible bounty a feeling of exultation,
....as thought a torrent of strange energies had sprung from
....the dauntless melody the clown blew on his flute as he sat on the railing of the circus.
Later I thought of this clown of the flute as a grotesque modern form of the great god Pan of the forest whom the Greeks worshipped as the symbol of cosmic vitality--serene,
....goat-footed Pan who plays the sacred syrinx (pan pipes)
....in the sinking dusk and with its magic sound evokes an echo in all things:
....leaves and fountains shiver, the stars begin to tremble,
....and the shaggy goats [cappella] dance at the edge of the grove.
....(qtd. in Kinsley, David R. The Sword and the Flute: 33, n. 49)
-FOOL, also called Jester, a comic entertainer whose madness or imbecility, real or pretended, made him a source of amusement and gave him license to abuse and poke fun at even the most exalted of his patrons. Professional fools flourished from the days of the Egyptian pharaohs until well into the 18th century, finding a place in societies as diverse as that of the Aztecs of Mexico and the courts of medieval Europe. Often deformed, dwarfed, or crippled, fools may have been kept for luck as well as for amusement, in the belief that deformity can avert the evil eye and that abusive raillery can transfer ill luck from the abused to the abuser. Fool figures played a part in the religious rituals of India and pre-Christian Europe, and, in some societies, such as that of Ireland in the 7th century BC, they were regarded as being inspired with poetic and prophetic powers.
The raillery of the fool and his frequent ritual association with a mock king suggest that he may have originated as a sacrificial scapegoat [cappella] substituted for a royal victim. A resemblance between the sacrificial garments of ancient ritual and the costume of a household jester in the Middle Ages..coxcomb, eared hood, bells, and bauble, with a motley coat..has been noted.
The earliest record of the use of court fools dates from the 5th dynasty of Egypt, whose pharaohs attached great value to Pygmies brought from the mysterious lands to the south, apparently employing them as dancers and buffoons. Fools were a part of many wealthy households of imperial Rome, in which imbecility and deformity fetched high prices in the slave markets. References to household fools appear increasingly in records from the 12th through the 15th century. Fools were attached to courts, private households, taverns, and even brothels. In the 18th century, household jesters declined in western Europe but flourished in Russia, and offending courtiers were sometimes degraded to court jesters.
The figure of the fool has also been important in literature and drama. The clown-player in Shakespeare's dramatic company, Robert Armin, was interested in household fools and published a historical account of them in 1605. His knowledge may have influenced the playwright, who produced some of the best-known fools in literature: Touchstone in As You Like It; Feste in Twelfth Night; and the fool in King Lear. See also fool's literature.
As long as the kings / queens can use SCAPEGOATS as jesters, actors or musicians, THEY who are worthy to be a sacrifice or burnt offering (never commanded by God) they can FEND OFF we vandals banging on the doors. That is why they have formed the
Senior Pastor (demoting elders) sect
Removing the vocational deacons who might give him trouble sect
The Theater for holy entertainment sect
Replacing men (masculine) with women (effeminate) sect (more fun at Dunkin Donut)
The ACappella (not a word) MUSES sect
Or the instrumentalist sect
And others to FEND OFF the owners while they steal the church houses of widows.
Anything which destroys the historic Church of Christ as a Word of God Only assembly, proves that they ARE the sorcerers who HAD fooled the world already. They are OLD spirits of the WORLD for which Jesus would not pray or the WISE (Sophists, rhetoricians, singers, musicians, clappers) from whom God HIDES Himself.
SURE WORKS, DOESN'T IT: we wonder why there are so many "spirits" flocking around the pied pipers and the peter pans? Jesus said that Many (most) are called but FEW (almost none) are Chosen to be REMOVED by Jesus Christ who came to seek and save the lost, the soujourners and pilgrims who are NOT OF this world. That's why they will NEVER catch on but the few need to be alerted.
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.77.112 on Apr 30, 2012 1:15 PM
Donnie, the list which you posted is a few years old. There are several more that I know of here in Texas. I will not post there names because of reasons I have already stated. I will give some more comments to your thoughts when I have more time.
Plymouth Park Church of Christ in Irving, TX is both. Instruments and women
One of the churches in Las Cruces, New Mexico recently split because the elders were adding an instrumental service in addition to a "traditional" service. Which one I do not know. One of our members was there when the split occured this year.
Our former congregation, Jenks Church in Jenks, Oklahoma, added an instrumental service several years ago (2001, if my memory is correct).
Redwood Church in Redwood, CA
Southlake Blvd church in Southlake Texas
There's also the New Beginnings Church of Clear Lake (Houston), Texas. They're a "contemporary church with a Church of Christ heritage."
Remember that the ICOC is a special case. Around the latter part of 1993, Kip McKean (who was firmly in charge of the discipling movement at that point), single handedly pronounced that it was not sinful to worship with instruments and women can have an expanded role in the church. (The lesson was titled "Wine, Women, and Song".) The surprising thing was that there was little-to-no uproar for allowing instruments. (At least I can't find any references online. I joined the ICOC in 1998.)
Jay Guin, bloated gloating: In a recent Christian Chronicle article, it was noted that Churches of Christ in the United States had elected to omit 21 congregations that have added an instrumental worship service, but several other congregations with instrumental services had been included by accident. I figure this means WE have at least 25 congregations with an instrumental service, and yet Ive only heard about Richland Hills and Quail Springs. Richland Hills decision became well known, Im sure, because its the largest of our congregations (not to mentioned Dave Millers book declaring them damned), and Quail Spring became famous because of the ads run in the Daily Oklahoma declaring them apostate.
Redwood church in Redwood City, Calif. The other 17 are entirely instrumental.
Consider that the pattern is choices to be made based on priority and consequences -
- Phil 3 says we are to have "no confidence in the flesh" - further it says that choices made by the example apostle Paul included education, erroneous ideas about religion, misguided zeal and personal religious pedigree. Then Paul tells us why this disconnecting is worth it - to obtain knowledge of Christ and attain the resurrection from the dead. It seems to me that many of the leaders of the emergent church mindset want to place great confidence in the flesh and follow erroneous ideas about Christ and base their zeal on popular books and marketing concepts authored by man. In contrast what the spirit said thru Paul is a pattern of choices and behavior and it is absolute truth, universal and objective for all races, cultures and genders.
- I john 2 says we are to put aside unlawful desire for things of the flesh or eye and the boastful pride of life. Another set of choices and behavior given by the spirit of God to us in the BIble. These are patterns of behavior which apply in every culture, to every race, and to both genders equally.
- Jer 10 says man cannot direct his own steps - Gods behavior pattern is not from the mind of men or is it part of any class exploitation of those who own no property or wealth. They are Gods requirements for everyone - and they demand that churches teaching programs and speaking forums address these issues to the young and old.
Paul was speaking about the bad persona of those who engage in "praise worship" when they have no intention of using that which is written. Paul in Acts warned about the "wolves"and the wolves are identified as "boy lovers." No surprise that allof the psallo references they use from the Greek literature speak of older males plucking their harp to seduce young boys. Paul understood that any kind of assembly would be subject to invasion by evil people looking for easy pickings. I can't tell you all that Paul meant about worship IN THE SPIRIT as opposed to IN THE FLESH but he speaks of the "concision and dogs" and this is the mark of only one thing I have found. The praise teams or worship ministers have a lot of people who are not fooled. So, let them steal the church house and thank God that you live in a perfectly prophesied attempt to silence the voice of Jesus and no where with more vile words than the attack on those who speak where the Bible speaks. They sound DELUSIONAL and that too is something to watch for.
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on May 3, 2012 3:52 AM
The question is, if a child, say at an early age, who has become a voracious reader and wants to learn more about our Lord, and say that that this child also knows how to access the internet and would per chance, visit and view this site, and would read Ken Sublett's last entry here about "boy lovers" (April 30 2012, 11:13 PM), what impression would this site leave on that child?
Dave seems to be telling us that children should NOT be warned about pedophiles. Perhaps Dave never said to his own children, "Don't take candy from strangers" or "Don't talk to strangers" or "If a stranger offers you a ride, don't get in his car."
Or perhaps Dave is just grousing at Ken because Dave's mindset doesn't provide him with anything better to do.
It would warn parents not to fellowship or attend any "religious worship" operate by a clergy of rhetoricians, performance singers or instrument players. All recorded history recognized that when people move awaw from SPEAK (ehp 5) or SAY to Lyrical speaking or musical performance it is both a SIGN and a PRODUCER of effeminancy.
They mock because they know that the Mother of Harlots is in charge and she uses "lusted after fruits" as rhetoricians, singers or instrument players. John called them sorcerers and consigned them to the lake of fire. Christ has inspired the prophets to say the same thing in Isaiah 30 where the marks in sight and sound of God driving his enemies into hell would be the wind, string and percussion instruments. Christ declared that lucifer the singing and harp-playing prostitute began the BEGINNING TIME sorcery to deceive the whole world. Guess what, the whole world has been seduced again in these ENDING TIME. But, joke, joke, only the majority of Churches of Christ fed on a life of Bible teaching and preaching were NOT seduced.
Christ began his TOTAL REPUDIATION of the Levites as "falsetto" singers after they were ABANDONED to begin slaughtering and burning both animals and infants. You will find NO RECORDED HISTORY defining the MARK of using INSTRUMENTS to seduce people. The Vineyard, new wineskins BOASTS about the object of instrument worship.
Paul also warned about the ELDERS as WOLVES: a wolf has the same meaning as a dog.
You forgot that The Spirit OF Christ defined the New REST day both inclusively and exclusively. In Isaiah specificially he defines IN DETAIL the eternal pattern of the gay troubadours always seeking whom they may DEVOUR. That was the PROPHETS which you cannot study an any university or hear in songs and sermons.
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on May 3, 2012 3:42 AM
Doesn't Dave think kids should be aware that such loathsome creatures as pedophiles exist? Wouldn't Dave tell his kids to scream and run if a "strange bad man" tried to "get" them? Or maybe Dave thinks pedophiles are fictitious, like the mean ole boogieman of fairy tales. Man, sometimes Dave gives the impression that he's not quite in touch with reality. Now why would Dave squawk blue blazes because Ken gave a negative description about "boy lovers" (AKA pedophiles)? Hmmm... Maybe it would be better if Dave kept his stray and foolish yappings to himself; they just hang him all the more.
Maybe it would be better if Dave kept his stray and foolish yappings to himself; they just hang him all the more.
You would do well to follow your own advice.The confused, pathetic attempt at a response by these patternists to a legitimate question has succeeded in accomplishing only one thing: a demonstration once again, for all the world to see, that their rigid theology is based on nothing other than their own party preferences. God and His Word are not even factors in the establishment of their LAWS that they seek to impose upon the rest of humanity. The harshest condemnation in all the New Covenant writings is reserved for such people as these. I can only hope and pray, as I trust each of you will, that their eyes may be opened before it is too late. They stand in opposition to our God, they dishonor His fair name, and they are a curse to Christianity. Hard words? Yes, they are ... and they are intended to be. Souls are being led into the outer darkness, away from the true Light, by these legalists, and it is time for the people of God to both expose them and oppose them. We have allowed this cancer to fester within the Body too long without treatment. It is time for surgery!
I gather that "Anonymous" was never looking for a pattern, because he had his rebellious mind made up from the beginning that no pattern existed.
No one is holding a gun to "Anonymous's" head to follow a pattern, but the one-and-only legitimate pattern we know of is that presented in the New Testament, which consists of the teachings of Christ and His apostles. Yes, those teachings consist of rules and commandments, but apparently "Anonymous" finds them "pathetic," offensive, stultifying, and "legalistic."
According to Phil 2:12, we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, but "Anonymous" evidently doesn't need the New Testament pattern for that. He'll fly it his own way.
The moment I come across expressions such as "patternists" and "legalists," I become suspicious that this individual is an ardent supporter and follower of "change agents," if he is not already one of them.
I see that this fellow is attempting to initiate a thread by posting an article [a very long one] authored by Al Maxey, one of the most prominent Change Movement agents, without crediting the article to the change agent.
I wondered whether he was a Maxeyite because he will never risk his opinions to a mature challenge.
We have noted over and over that the GIFT at baptism is that Christ gives US A holy spirit or A good conscience. In 1 Peter 3:21 Peter says that BAPTISM SAVES US (Al and the Anti-patternists Sect says that we are saved by faith only). And if we obey what Christ prophesied and Jesus commanded and all recorded history obeyed, Al's Sect says that we are a legalist. That calls God in Christ a liar.
The problem is that those who are NOT saved, the Wise or Sophists (rhetoricians, singers, instrument players) cannot read black text on brown paper (2 Cor 3). Al has never been able to read the text in context because that would OUT him as the real legalists--a musical instrument is a machine for doing hard work. For instance, he has not and will never be able to read the context of His legalistic REWRITING of Scripture.
He says with a STRAIGHT face:
For by grace you have been saved through faith;
......and that not of yourselves,
......it is the gift of God;
......not as a result of works,
......that no one should boast" [Eph. 2:8-9].
Now, a Disciple of Christ would really begin in Ephesians 1 and look at the parallel passages before calling the Spirit of Christ in the prophets a false prophet and call Jesus a liar. However, earlier in the chapter Paul said what he ALWAYS said proving the promise of Jesus that those who believeth (complieth) in baptism would be saved. The Apistos (believeth not) COMPLIETH NOT and is defined by Jesus as one of the people OF THE WORLD and therefore traitorous to the Father of the SPIRITS needing to be translated back into a heavenly kingdom (Church)
Then a Disciple of Christ (CENI to teach what Christ commanded to be taught) would read another important verse:
Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come
......he might SHEW the exceeding riches of his grace
......in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
The Lord's Supper SHOWS FORTH forever that we trust in the death of Jesus Christ to procure all of the blessings of being translated into HIS spiritual kingdom which does not come "with observation" meaning that the kingdom is within us and cannot be FLASHED forth by performers in Religious Observations. Worship is exclusively giving heed to THE WORD as it is written for our learning. Elders are IDENTIFIED by their teaching that which has been taught. A godly preacher or teacher has only ONE RESOURCE and that is the way to be Christ- and Grace-Centered.
Baptism is that FORM or type or "PATTERN capable of being imitated" and only after we have SHOWN FORTH the Grace of Jesus Christ by being baptized are we THEN FREE FROM sin. People who ride on the backs of widows to promote the Grace-Centered PATTERN (even if you have to get hurt) simply TRAMPLE UNDER FOOT the MEANS Christ ordained to request and receive this grace. Obedience is NOT legalism, silly people, God recognized Jesus as His SON only after He had been baptized to FULLY PREACH baptism as God's instrumental means.
People who equate the Spirit OF (preposition) Christ in the prophets promising that He will save us FROM the CROOKED RACE (Scribes, Pharisees, Hypocrites=rhetoricians, singers, instrument players), to the Law of Moses (Added because of musical idolatry) are blasphemers of the spirit OF Christ.
The word SALVATION used by the Jews had nothing to do with the REMOVAL of the human spirit into safe keeping.
Salvation by Jesus Christ is firstly SALVATION FROM the Race of Vipers or the Crooked Race. These are Cainites where Cain is derived from a MUSICAL NOTE.
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on May 3, 2012 3:46 AM This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.128.19 on May 2, 2012 12:42 PM
Here's what's really strange: "Anonymous" is basically saying that we who encourage people to follow the pattern, the New Testament teachings of Christ and His apostles, are:
--Opposing and dishonoring God
--A curse to Christianity
--Legalists
--Leading souls into outer darkness
--A cancer
So how can people be such a blight to God and Christianity if they encourage others to obey the very teachings of Christ and His apostles? Only those in absolute rebellion against God and who bitterly despise all rules and commandments would be so misguided.
Beware of those who cry "FOUL" when they hear anyone mention the pattern, the teachings of Christ and His apostles, and the New Testament.
What's strange to me is the abuse that gets heaped on some one who asks an honest question, especially if it kicks one of the sacred cows. Like Jesus said, you honor God with your lips but your hearts are far from Him.
If you say that teaching that which is written about baptism and instruments as the MARK of satan is just a Church of Christ Sacred Cow then you blaspheme or pour out hatred against Jesus when there is no courage to test you false teachings in a manly way.
If you build on the foundation of Al Maxey and the other promoters of the NACC then you are in trouble. While they are arguing about patternism and all of the other RACA words they KEEP the Bible chained to the pulpit and you PAY them to keep you away from the undiluted word. You could have been Reading Christ's Old Book on Isaiah instead of those intending to silence the mouth of the victim which is the meaning of music.
If you would NAME a Sacred Cow (Amos who demonizes music in the holy places said they were MAN HANDLED by the Cows of Bashaan) we might be nicer. Otherwise, Jesus identified the "mouth worshipers" as Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites and Christ named rhetoricians (self-speak preachers), singers and instrument players.
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on May 3, 2012 3:48 AM
If you say that teaching that which is written about baptism and instruments as the MARK of satan is just a Church of Christ Sacred Cow then you blaspheme or pour out hatred against Jesus when there is no courage to test you false teachings in a manly way.
Case in point. Where does the Bible say that someone who thinks differently from you has the mark of Satan? For that matter, what is the mark of Satan. Book, chapter and verse, please and spare us the rambling.
Case in point. Where does the Bible say that someone who thinks differently from you has the mark of Satan?
See, I told you that you cannot read BLACK text on WHITE paper. I never said any such thing: Scripture doesn't give authority to "think" beyond the sacred pages.
Ken Sublett (Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
Posted May 2, 2012 4:13 PM
Case in point. Where does the Bible say that someone who thinks differently from you has the mark of Satan?
See, I told you that you cannot read BLACK text on WHITE paper. I never said any such thing: Scripture doesn't give authority to "think" beyond the sacred pages.
Nice attempt at diversion but that doesn't answer the question. Care to try again?
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on May 6, 2012 5:04 AM This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on May 3, 2012 3:38 AM
Brian's original question appeared honest enough: "What is the pattern to follow?" We told him what the pattern was, yet when he kept asking "What is the pattern? Where is the pattern? Show me the pattern!" we smelled a RAT.
When it became obvious that Brian was not about to accept the teachings of Christ and His apostles as the one-and-only pattern but kept asking and asking for the pattern, we knew that Brian was just playing a ridiculous game. Under those circumstances, Brian's "questions" were no longer honest but mocking, so we called his bluff. Brian got angry, as change agents do when called out, and showed his true colors by becoming abusive: according to Brian, those who follow the pattern of the New Testament are "pathetic," "legalists," and a "curse to Christianity," among other unsavory comments.
We're happy to answer questions about salvation and the Gospel from people who SERIOUSLY want to know. Our answers are Bible-based. If people don't like our answers, they are free to go elsewhere. When we have answered a person's question multiple times, but the person shows all signs of rejecting the answers, then that person hangs around to mock and jeer at our answers, that's the symbolic time to shake off the dust of our feet at that person and say good-bye to him.
I asked several times WHAT the pattern was, not WHERE to find it. Donnie and I agreed I was phrasing the question incorrectly. The correct question is "What is the pattern for ___?" The consensus was that there are models of God's ideal to follow in different areas of life. My question was answered.
On the other hand, Ken was being his usual lunatic self, trying to twist the thread into yet another condemnation of ...something. B was too busy thinking up her next snarky, church-lady comment to pay attention. I say let's lock the thread and move on.
"Anonymous" would make a great "straight man" for the Church Lady. He could whip out his spiritually heinous diatribe condemning those who advocate the New Testament pattern, and the Church Lady would respond:
"Hmmm...Well isn't that spec-ial! It seems that someone or someTHING is flappin' the mouth of Annie Mouse. Now, who could it be? Could it be...SATAN (tan...tan...tan)?
History knows no exception: that's why the ANTI-sectarians lie about God and to God and up to half of the owners cast themselves out of their own synagogue. You should listen to the gagging which goes on before people can exit what they know instinctively to be the invasion of ZOE or Lucifer Christ called the singing and harp playing prostitute. In the ancient world it was RARE for a male to be so bent that he would sing AND play at the same time. Amos calls them "baskets of summer fruits" and John calls them "lusted after fruits."
"Philodemus considered it paradoxical that music should be regarded as veneration of the gods while musicians were paid for performing this so-called veneration. Again, Philodemus held as self deceptive the view that music mediated religious ecstasy. He saw the entire condition induced by the noise of cymbals and tambourines as a disturbance of the spirit.
He found it significant that, on the whole, only women and effeminate men fell into this folly.
Accordingly, nothing of value could be attributed to music; it was no more than a slave of the sensation of pleasure, which satisfied much in the same way that food and drink did.
Similar opinions may be found in the writings of Philo. On one occasion he spoke of the Jewish "Feast of Fasting," used by the Greeks for the Day of Atonement:
"Now, many a man from the false religions, which are not ashamed of criticising what is noble, will ask: how can there be a feast without carousing and overeating, without the pleasant company of hosts and guests, without quantities of unmixed wine, without richly set tables and highly stacked provisions of everything that pertains to a banquet, without pageantry and jokes,
bantering and merry-making to the accompaniment of flutes and citharas, the sound of drums and cymbals and other effeminate and frivolous music of every king,
enkindling unbridled lusts with the help of the sense of hearing. For in and through the same [pleasures] those persons openly seek their joy, for what true joy is their they do not know.
Women's singing was a vital part of all pagan worship. In very early times women became priestly singers of the gods in the temple.
"Women and girls from the different ranks of society were proud to enter the service of the gods as singers and musicians. The understanding of this service was universal: these singers constituted the 'harem of the gods'." (End of Quasten)
Solomon had both boy and girl singers: concubines.
Donnie,
Obviously B is an important part of this site. You and Ken acknowledge your full names. Are you ashamed of B enough to not ask him to do the same? You, yourself, have often crooned to have anyone here that hides behind an alias to come forth with names. Would this be considered a double standard? How I wonder....
Dave apparently doesn't understand that I have given my name, and it is B. What law says that a name cannot consist of one letter? There is at least one poster on this site who goes by "Anonymous," who happens to share Dave's pro-Change Movement philosophy. I'm not talking about Brian, who sometimes posts as "Anonymous" with a "Brian Cade" login who also shares Dave's views. There is still another pro-Change Movement poster who has never given his name, yet Dave has conveniently withheld any negative comments about that guy's anonymity.
Now what was Dave saying about a "double standard" here?
For those who really want to know, the pattern is found in the New Testament. The answer to the question "What is the pattern for thus-and-so?" the answer is found in the teachings of Christ and His apostles.
Hey B, if you want to hide behind B, that is entirely on you. Are the others who post under 'anonymous' regular posters....like you? Even if they are regular posters you certainly can still do whatever you like. If you feel a bit frightened by doing this.....don't. Don't mind me.....I am, by your standards, just an ole change agent.
Dave, have you heard this expression: "Magician? Yes/maybe. Mind Reader? No." It does not matter if "B" is a middle initial or if "B" is the first character of a nickname. Worrying to excess is hazardous to one's health.
Brian, I prefer the question worded in this manner: What is the New Testament pattern of/for _______________?
[The liberal/progressive Change Movement agents now reject this RM principle and ridicule their "conservative brethren" who teach that we follow the pattern that is New Testament-based, whether it is concerning church leadership or the conversion process or worship, etc.
Any New Testament-based pattern excludes other sources.
No worries Donnie....for me nor you. You seem to have lost your soul and conscience years ago with this struggle and for those who seem to think like you will protect here....and those who think differently and love the Truth of God you go after. This is your site and your kingdom...guard it well.
Didn't you learn and study the Restoration Movement when you attended Abilene Christian? What about the New Testament pattern of church leadership (e.g., the plurality of elders, etc.)? As I recall, you were one of 3 elders in your small congregation; then you weren't listed; now you are an elder.
Based on your knowledge of the Scripture, or even from your personal experience, how are the elders [to be] selected?
==========================
This forum's editor accepts a one-letter name or identification. It also accepts the name or user that is left blank -- in this case, the word "Anonymous" [we sometimes refer to that one as "Annie Mouse"] is substituted for the blank entry.
It seems strange to address someone as an alphabet as in: "Hello, B" but as long as I know who it is, it shouldn't matter to me.
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on May 4, 2012 5:08 AM
A person with a one-letter name gives Dave something more to talk about. It also gives a bit of "variety" to his otherwise one-track posts that claim this site is anti-Christ.
Certainly, with concernedmembers being your kingdom, Donnie, you can do anything you want. Guard B....he needs it.
Donnie, do you actually believe, after all the evil that has been proclaimed from YOUR site here, all the hate and malice exhibited, you actually believe that I am going to discuss anything holy from His Word with you?
After all the insulting, spiteful, mean-spirited, and spiritually heinous comments that Dave, the so-called "shepherd," has spewed forth over many months, does Dave actually believe that we would expect him to be capable of discussing anything holy from God's Word with us?
If Dave actually spent his days reading, studying, and obeying the New Testament teachings of Christ and His apostles, Dave wouldn't have any time to worry about a one-letter name.
No problem Donnie......and a good one in your cap too about B. It just took someone more savy at the computer than me to find it out.
I will leave you guys to have at it for a while. Got some traveling to do....coming back to TN again though. Tell JimmyJoe to email me again. Was trying to meet him last time but didn't hear from him again. We had a great time in TN helping a young couple clear off their land (we only helped for a day and they will still be clearing that land next year this time) from the tornado back towards the first of the year. Made a mess of a lot of trees and houses, but more trees than anything.
Hope you can see to it to give this site to God one day and get off the losing side. Satan may be powerful Donnie, but he doesn't have a chance against God. Give it a try.....
Also, I will let you know, but soon and very soon we are going to see the King, and ALSO....ALSO....a new website coming up soon proclaiming the Word of God. You have to wait for the details. Can't wait, can ya B? Good ole B......Donnie that was awesome!!! I should be back here in about 3 months, maybe a bit longer.
Like that one too, eh B?
Ha!.....B is thee?
Here is a good pattern for yout new BibleSlite.orge
May 5 2012, 2:14 PM
"Jingling, banging, and rattling accompanied heathen cults, and the frenzying shawms of a dozen ecstatic cries intoxicated the masses. Amid this euphoric farewell feast of a dying civilization, the voices of nonconformists were emerging from places of Jewish and early Christian worship ..." (Encyclopedia Judaica, 1971 ed., s.v. "Music")
"Based on the concept of an organic pattern in the life course of civilization, a morphology of history: the idea that every culture has its period of youth, its period of culmination, its years then of beginning to totter with age and of striving to hold itself together by means of rational planning, projects, and organization, only finally to terminate in decrepitude, petrification... and no more life. Moreover, in this view of Spengler's, we were at present on the point of passing from what he called the period of Culture to Civilization, which is to say, from our periods of youthful, spontaneous, and wonderful creativity to those of uncertainty and anxiety, contrived programs, and the beginning of the end." (Campbell, Joseph, Myths to Live By, p. 84)
"That the spiritualistic and the legalistic are not polar opposites but in fact correlatives has been one of the discoveries of this study...
If the Spirit does not come to us freely in Christ then
we must go to him through some kind of spiritual achievement and
this means, ultimately, via law.
"One of the most striking aspects of the Scrolls is the coincidence in them of a 'legalistic' and a 'charismatic' piety." (Bruner, A Theology of the Holy Spirit, p. 229)
Awesome? In the same way that changelings worship God as "awesome"? They have yet to figure out the difference between: (a) "awesome" and (b) in awe or reverence!!!
I have a name for your new website. Since "ex-church of Christ" is already claimed and in existence and cannot be duplicated, the appropriate name for a similar one would be "anti-church of Christ" website. Other names that would carry the same idea as: "transforming the church of Christ" or "away from the Restoration Movement church"; etc.
I'm surprised that you voluntarily continue to be a participant here, not that you're always welcome. Remember, though, that you have continually condemned this site as evil and headed by Satan. Just a reminder, OK? Remember I Thess. 5:22 -- "Abstain from all appearance of evil." And that's speaking of just the "appearance" of evil? Can you imagine participating in the real evil?
All I was trying to do was asking everyone to stop this nonsensical involvement in discussing trivial matters such as the "B" puzzle, as there are more important issues we should be discussing. All the mean-spirited messages that come out of your "heart" are unbecoming of a "shepherd."
All or most of CM has been prompted by people lamenting that people claiming a holy spirit were suddenly and drastically turning other people's church into "a theater for holy entertainment." This is perfectly defined as the "strong delusions." Most of it has been prompted by evil people being squashed like a bug for trying to turn the church into a Tavern of the holy spirit with the Spirit being the Dance Master and chorus leader (Lucado, Shelly) and holy bartender. The MARKS are so perfect that no disciple of Christ could have missed it. We have posted the REST of the text which always refutes the "proof text" collected with someone with a PhDuh in Lexicon 101aa.
How about:
Divinitymalignity.urg
Cain (from a musical note) was OF THAT WICKED ONE. So, we cannot fully appreciate the masses of principalities and powers in high places but Jesus told us how to avoid them and Paul told us how to fight them: we do not WRESTLE (including instruments) but with the SWORD of the Spirit. I know that it hurts but that's the way it is and EUNUCH sang that old song: Once you have been seduced by Satan's "elders" teaching you how to silence the word with instrumental noises, there's "no turning back, no turning back."
Remember that Dave's foundation is built on the WORLD LEADER, David and his naked dance. Being abandoned to Worship the Starry host, it is logical that he would want to be an octopus and play all of those instruments (of vile performer) up in the FIRMAMENT.
And the WORLD has steadfastly heaped derision and identified Bible thumpers as liars and madmen: Jesus spelled this out in John 17:
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on May 6, 2012 5:02 AM
Titus 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate
Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word
as he hath been taught,
that he may be able by sound doctrine
both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. [speak against the Word]
Those willing to steal the church house of widows always use the SWORD weapon to insist that no Christian would openly repudiate false teachers: they do not LOVE. However, the pattern of Jesus is if you starve the little children (deprive them of the Word of God) you will sent into the lake of fire--performing in a progressive church near you.
When you get the better of them they quite posting their twisted views and begin calling you names. You will notice that none of the scholars who are challenged by posting REAL links to REAL facts will ever "stoop" to respond to you. That's what we call cowards and the crooked race because THEY know that they can fool ENOUGH people to carry out their mission of music "to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter." These people are of the WORLD as we have noted and Jesus refused to teach them or prayform them: they are the wise or SOPHISTS meaning "rhetoricians, singers and instrument players" removing all Bible content. Jesus called them Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites and Christ in Exekiel 33 named entertainment speakers, singers and instrument players. This was NOTHING MORE than proving that the teachers performed for money and used performance singers and instrument players.
A few years ago, a rather deranged man posted for awhile on this site. His messages were so filled with bitter hate and rage that they made ole Dave look like a prince. Eventually, this highly disturbed man gave up and left (or he may have been banned). When he couldn't defeat this site, he started a one-man web site designed to debunk CM. In fact, his site was called "concernedmembersdebunked.com." The man raved on and on about the alleged "evils" of CM. A messsage board was supposedly forthcoming, but one never materialized. Not long after, his site bit the dust and disappeared from the Internet.
Now Dave plans to be involved in what could be a similar kind of "site." How fascinating! I would imagine that his site would be devoted to (or at least have a section for) such "Christian" topics as trashing the New Testament church of Christ and CM along with it. And Dave could bring back the "good ole one-sided days" of FaithSite by rejecting any posts from conservatives like Donnie, Ken, and B.
A few years ago, a rather deranged man posted for awhile on this site. His messages were so filled with bitter hate and rage that they made ole Dave look like a prince.
Without mentioning names, let's narrow the possibilities. Spiritually deranged people will always reject the New Testament teachings of Christ and His apostles as the pattern for becoming a Christian and living the Christian life.
David Lipscomb Still speaks for the OWNERS: All service in his kingdom not ordained by him, all organizations not builded by him, not commanded in his word, are without the seals of his blood, are unsanctified and defile the temple of God.
The letter to the Hebrews x: 28, further declares, "He who despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace." [45]
To despise Moses' law was to turn from the law given by Moses and sealed by the typical blood, to service not so given. He who turns from the appointments given by the Son of God, sealed by his blood, revealed and confirmed by the Spirit of God, or places upon equality with them as service to God the acts and institutions of man's wisdom, tramples under foot the authority of Jesus Christ, and makes it nothing.
For if man's wisdom can guide into the service of God,
....it is as good as the wisdom of God.
....So to make services based on the opinions of man,
....not sealed by the blood of Christ, a part of the worship of God,
is to place them upon equality with the blood-sealed appointments of Jesus Christ and the wisdom and authority of man on equality with the wisdom and authority of God. To do this is to count the blood of Christ which seals the covenant, unholy--that is, without sanctifying efficacy. If service in the ways based on man's opinions, unsealed by the blood of Christ, is acceptable to God, it is equal to that service rendered through the blood-sealed appointments, hence the blood is of no avail, it is unholy, and does not consecrate or sanctify the service sealed by it.
To serve God in ways based on the opinions of man, is to turn from the Spirit, is to refuse to be led by the Spirit, and is to place his teachings on a level with the teachings of God.
Hence the seal of the blood and the teachings of the Spirit are of no value. To introduce or observe a service based on the opinions or wisdom of man, is to trample under foot the Son of God, despise his authority, count the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and do "despite unto the Spirit of Grace." Those who thus treat the law of him who speaks from heaven, will receive a punishment much sorer than those who rejected the law of Moses.
David Lipscomb continues: "As an example, the Spirit of God said,
"Christians [46] must speak to themselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your hearts to the Lord."
Here is Divine requirement for singing
....This comes to us as the direction of the Spirit [the Word]
....sealed with the blood of Christ
.....Man's opinion introduces an organ.
When an organ is introduced into the worship
....it is placed on equality with the singing
....It is really placed above it,
....and over-rides and supersedes it.
But say it is there as a part of the service of God.
It stands on equality with the appointments of God.
The authority of the Spirit and the blood of Christ go for nothing--they are not needed to render the service acceptable, since the organ without the authority of God and the blood of Christ, is acceptable.
If any service not authorized by the word of God, not sealed by the blood of Christ, is acceptable to God---then that authority and blood are not needed to render any service acceptable,
.... and to introduce those not authorized and sealed
.... is to declare the sanction of the Spirit and the seal of the blood
....are not needed--not holy--do not sanctify.
It is equally true of institutions in which we serve God
....The churches of Christ, local and distinct,
....are ordained by God--sealed by the blood of Jesus,
....and given us by the Spirit of God, for the purpose
....of saving and elevating men and honoring God.
To accept these and work in them, is to honor their author and
.... to show an appreciation of the blood that seals them,
.... and it is to follow the Spirit of God.
To organize other institutions upon the opinion or judgment of man, through which to work,is to declare man's judgment equal to the wisdom of God,
....it is to declare the sanctifying power of the blood, not needed,
....or it is to ignore that there is sanctifying power in the blood
....and to set at naught the teachings of the Spirit.
This is to trample under foot the Son of God, to count the blood of the covenant unholy--without sanctifying power, and thus [47] to set at naught or do despite to the Spirit of Grace.
This is true of all service based on the authority of man's opinions or judgment.
The pastor distinct from the eldership, is added as a matter of opinion.
This opinion of man becomes equivalent to or above the order of God,
....which ordains the elders as the teachers
....The pastorate becomes more important than the eldership
....It degrades the authority that ordains the eldership for the church. Again, the Lord ordained that his church should be carried forward by free gifts, honestly gained, cheerfully given by his children. This has the sanction of the Spirit, and is sealed by the blood of Christ.
Men on their opinions hold festivals, fairs and frolics, to entice men, for fleshly gratification, to give their money, and this is brought into the temple of God, on an equal footing with that contributed according to the direction of God. This is to trample under foot the Lord Jesus Christ, to count the blood of the covenant unholy, of no value, and it is to do despite to the Spirit of Grace.
These things are properly defined "fads, fancies, preferences, based on opinion and nothing but opinion." To introduce them into the worship or church of God, is to make man's opinion a basis and rule of action for the church, and a fad or fancy or human opinion, equal to a blood-sealed ordinance of God. This is to place man's opinion on an equality with the word of God. This is to degrade the authority of God, to trample under foot the Lord Jesus and his authority, to count the blood of the covenant unholy, of no value, and to reject the teachings of the Holy Spirit.
Al Maxey learned you that. Remember that Al denies that just about anything was COMMANDED in the
Bible.
However, everyone including Jesus attended the synagogue: He stood up to read and quite decently SAT down and didn't pass the collection plate to give Al an honest living.
So, says Al, that means that WE can SIN by imposing instruments and GRACE will give us a pass.
Anyone who does not know that Christ ordained the Church of Christ in the wilderness as the only time and place the godly people were called into assembly should find an honest job. Christ define the ONLY one-piece pattern both inclusively an exclusively.
As a trained sermonizer, Al missed Bible 101a. Furthermore, Paul's "come together, assemble or gather" are SYNAGOGUE words. He also defined the synagogue inclusively and exclusively. The absolute PATTERN with no loop-holes for legalistic end runs was to "us one mind and one mouth" teaching THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING and defined that as Scripture. A Disciple is REDEEMED from Al's understanding of"worship services" and are called to go OUTSIDE these assemblies and "come learn of ME." That leaves absolutely NOTHING to add by honest preachers.
The word ekklesia comes from two Greek words: Ek means out and Kaleo means call, and this is the verb form. When we put the two together and write the noun form of it, it is Ekklesia and means called out ones. This is the way it is always used in the Greek language. It means an assembly of people who are called out for a purpose.
The word ekklesia is also used to translate the Hebrew word miqra in the Septuagint, because it also means called out. Miqra is the word that the English Bibles usually translate as convocation, as in "it shall be a holy convocation unto you" (Lev. 23:36). So in the Old Testament the Hebrew phrase called out is translated as convocation and in the New Testament the same phrase in Greek is translated as church. They are really synonymous, but because of the different English words they are made to seem different from each other.
The TEMPLE was designed as the CAPITAL, bank, center of animal sacrifices--not commanded under The book of the Covenant. They worshipped the starry host (acts 7) because that is what God abandoned them to BECAUSE of musical idolatry at Mountsinai
"A community, qahal in Hebrew, is a Jewish community of any size. The qahal was a well established concept and was called an ekklesia in the Nazarean Codicil. In English we translate the Greek ekklesia as church. So, whenever we see the word church in our Nazarean Codicil's, we should have in mind the concept of a qahal, a community or congregation.
The Septuagint uses the word Ecclesia seventy times when it translates the Hebrew word: kve (qahal could also be spelled Cahal), from which we get our English word call. It means to call together, to assemble, or gather together.
The synagogue serves the same purpose for a community that the Temple served for the nation.
From this midrash we learn that the study and application of the scriptures and the oral law, are the work that a group of people put in to establish a qahal. However, without a structure to impart this wisdom, the qahal will not prosper. The structure that establishes and prospers a qahal is the synagogue.
The outlawed alarm which Judas would try on Jesus was:
Ruwa (h7321) roo-ah'; a prim. root; to mar (espec. by breaking); fig. to split the ears (with sound), i. e. shout (for alarm or joy): - blow an alarm, cry (alarm, aloud, out), destroy, make a joyful noise, smart, shout (for joy), sound an alarm, triumph.
The assembly was for hearing the Words of God:
Specially the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children. Deut 4:10
When settled in the land this was held each sabbath (rest): it quarantined ALL of the godly people from the temple which is Maxey's patternism of being abandoned to Babylonianism.
John Calvin so understood the synagogue and in turn the Campbells understood that
Church was A School of Christ
Worship was reading and musing the Word.
They probably even read this INCLUSIVE-EXCLUSIVE purpose of the synagogue althought it always confessed the SHEMA (repudiating the neo-trinitaqrians) and the READER also prayed. Both Jew and Gentile enjoyed the synagogue as a way of escape from paganism and were "wise until salvation" specifiially because the Prophets was the primary teaching resource.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time
....hath in every city
....them that preach him,
....being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
If you think instrumental idolatry is not condemned the Acts 7 was apparently not required to get a Ph.d. If you say that the synagogue did not exist as long as there was something needing to be taught, then you also missed Acts 15 (2 Cor 3) etal.
Paul defines this EXCLUSIVE first to shut down all of the performers so they could teach the Word of God. Both sermonizing and singing came 4 centuries too late to fit the Biblical pattern. Preaching has ONLY the Scriptures as resource and purpose is to commend it to hearing and understanding.
Pattern all the changelings cannot read or understand to save them from doing a Judas maneuver.
1Timothy 4:13 Till I come,
give attendance to [public] reading,
to exhortation,
to doctrine.
"The word that is employed for this "anaginosko, anagnosis" is the technical term for the cultic reading aloud of the Old Testament in the synagogue. By applying this terminology to the reading of his own epistles he not only ascribes the same authority to the apostolic word as to the Old Testament writings...he also combines a quotation from the Old Testament with a word of Jesus and introduces the whole with the familiar formula: 'for the Scripture says.'" (Ridderbos, Hermon, Paul, an Outline of His Theo., Eerdmans, p. 483)
The Subject is the synagogue: I have proven to you and ALL of those trying to subvert churches of Christ that Christ ordained the Church of Christ in the wilderness. It exists as The Kingdom of God which KEEPS Jesus Christ as King and High Priests over His kingdom within us after having shut down the instrumentalists patterns of a Covenant with Death.
It was EXCLUSIVE of "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" including any elevated form of speech. The PATTERNISM is to READ the Word otherwise you believe your self-speak is superior to Jesus Christ.
Now, respond to the SYNAGOGUE folly.
If you can't give an answer you are a false teacher. One issue at a time.
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.65.47 on May 7, 2012 7:00 PM
The era of the progressive Church of Christ is over.
Back in the 80s you could go to any major city, especially in the South, and you could find a progressive Church of Christ and if they would preach grace, and if they would put words on a screen, and if they would let divorced people place membership, they would grow.
The generation of Boomers has enough denominational loyalty that theyre going to find the least legalistic
Well, we discipled the children of those progressive churches
....for a whole generation to grow past us Boomers.
....They never heard the sermons we heard.
....They never heard the rationale for a cappella music.
We sent them to youth rallies and Church of Christ events
....with some of the finest Christian bands in the world.
....We discipled our children to leave our Movement!
Al Maxey Applauded Rick Atchley for IMPOSING instruments knowing that he would sow massive discord.
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.65.47 on May 7, 2012 7:09 PM
Hey, lunatic, I brought up the question about the synagogue system. You dodged it with your usual blather and you lied about Bro. Maxey in the process. The question was, "What is your take on Jesus' participation in the synagogue system?" There is no mention of the synagogue system in the Law of Moses, not even a hint of it. So I put it to you-did Jesus sin by participating in an unauthorized form of worship. Do try to answer with honesty.
I did a very quick Google search on the "Al Maxey" and "Rick Atchley" affair and found the following info -- it may not be related to the "synagogue" discussion. Interestingly, I find the following info from a linked page (only portions to explain that the "restrictive" exchurchofchrist website has its own disciples who just love their change agents). [It's a copy-and-paste here and there, simple, as I have no time to show it in living color.]
Here's the partial link -- simply to identify the source:
Ex-Church of Christ Support Group For former members of the Churches of Christ
Youtube
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
Ex-Church of Christ Support Group Forum Index -> Church of Christ: Doctrine & Culture
_________________________________
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:54 pm
I've watched this a dozen times, and it never gets old.
Thank you Lord for men like Rick Atchley, Rubel Shelley, Al Maxey, and Max Lucado!
I was on my journey towards thinking like I am now when I found and read Hoebel Music's book "Behold The Pattern!" He spent most of it quoting what these and other dreaded change agents have said. The more I read it, the more convinced I became that the "change agents" were right and Hoebel Music is wrong.
Thank you Music for helping me find the way out of the awful nonsense you teach! Twisted Evil
________________________________
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:08 pm
I too thank God for those men you mentioned. Good ol' Al has become a very dear friend to me.... I feel very close in spirit to Max because he, too, was raised in the legalistic coc, and he has gone the same route I've traveled...only earlier. ... And Rick I really discovered thru Al, who described The Hills to me and urged me and Jim to attend there when we got to Fort Worth.
________________________________
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:36 pm
I think if not for Al Maxey, I'd never have gotten to know about Jay Guin, Rick Atchley or Carl Ketcherside.
OK, I went ahead and underscored important info related to the change agents operating in the brotherhood. Birds of a feather....
Donnie, thank for the info. Unfortunately, none of this excuses Ken's lies and mischaracterizations. If you're opposed to the positions these men advocate, fine. Oppose them, but don't lie about them and don't twist their words to say something they never intended. You dishonor yourself and God when you do that.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Musical Worship people are the real LUNATICS:
2Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth,
and shall be turned unto fables.
Cantus III. In the language of religion, as v. n. or a., to use enchantments, charms, incantations, to enchant, to charm, cantata Luna, exorcised by magic,
B.To call forth, produce by charms: et chelydris [fetid serpent] cantare soporem,
The statement by Jesus in Luke 6:46 - "Why call me Lord Lord and do not what I say" If someone claims to be a follower of Christ and that others cling to every word they speak or write shouldn't they logically line up with what Jesus taught? Not only Christ but his apostles and their letters would be included in this also.
This post modern mindset is one contrary idea - Luke 6:46 uses the word "Kurios" indicating supreme authority, owner, or master. Some say we don't have to follow a pattern because none exists - yet the meaning of the passage is that the lead in religion is Christ and not man. Christ is Kurios not an entertainment preference or religious tradition. He is the way the truth and the life and no one gets to God except by him. His question goes unanswered by the post modern crowd - why are you calling him master and not doing what he said to do?
...or is it simply that they know the difference between tradition and truth? You would condemn to hell all who violate your tradition by thinking for themselves to the point where tradition must be rejected for truth.
"Saying , The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe , that observe and do ; but do not ye after their works: for they say , and do not.For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.But all their works they do for to be seen of men : they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." - Matt.23:2-9.
This is an excellent question to pose. The answer is some are calling singing without instruments a tradition. Women without authority in the assembly as a tradition and somehow pharisee based. Some call out that our measure of who is a Christian and who is not is narrow and based on tradition established by the Campbells. But what is true is that we have based our ideas of what God demands on the literal interpretation of the BIble as it was written for us to study and know everything we need to please God.
Another tradition vs truth issue is that of the grace of God. The grace of God is extended to who? Matt 7 says that just calling him lord is not sufficient nor is doing many good works. Christ made no such promise to recognize men and women because they appear religious. Want the grace of God then be humble in mind and spirit and seek his will. For he that cometh to God must believe that he is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him. Seeking him is not reading books of scoffers and proud men, loving the world and "doing your own thing". One must know the word.
They love to claim that NOT using instruments is "just our tradition." They really want people to believe that churches of Christ INVENTED not using instruments just because they were mean and legalistic.
The fact is that all recorded church historians and founders of denominations rejected instruments based on the clear teachings of the Bible which leaves no "silences" to be filled in.
They claim that this is just our "heritage" which claims that our godly ancestors rejected instruments because they were too ignorant or too poor. "Tradition" means that our views are a deadly virus contracted from better scholars.
Because "conservatives" have only Scripture as their authority they can always increase their faithfulness. They are not bound to any tradition or optional practice as long as it does not remove Christ and His Word from purpose of gathering.
Pepperdine who along with all of the once Christian colleges are now trying to make "a cappella" into a highly trained profession for Composers and worship teams. I think that is because with all of their workshops fueled by pro-instrumentalists and "worship teams" had almost no effect on non-instrumental churches of Christ. I think that is a compliment to preachers and elders and the older ladies who keep everyone in line that they had such miserable success.
Now, A Cappella or as they say ACappella is the new fad. Church for disciples does not depend on the professional performance of the group.
Actually, ACapella is kind of passe anymore. However, you will not find anywhere in Scripture that forbids the use of instruments. Furthermore, silence does not prohibit. God has not spoken to this in the Bible. The law of silence is a man-made construct following from the use of the flawed CENI methodology.What truth has God ever revealed to His people by saying absolutely nothing about it?
The (1) command or directive from God or Scripture to use musical devices in the assembly of the saints would make a much stronger case than to (2) find scripture that prohibits the use of inanimate and lifeless, controversial and unnecessary musical objects in the assembly of saints.
Would you like a list of teachings that nowhere are prohibited in Scripture but that you and other Maxey disciples would not practice in the assembly?
Another thread explains that both CENI and the "law of silence" are principles that essentially challenge change agents like both "Maxes" -- Al Maxey and Max Lucado -- and others to "bring it on and prove it with Scripture."
I think that Briann is really Al Maxey! What do you think?
Briann just proves that he cannot read black text on brown paper: he and Al are legalists: they want a law that says "thou shalt not use a machine for doing hard work during they school of Christ.
They are unable to connect passages and define the words for their first century meaning. Briann still hasn't defined what paul outlawed when he said DON'T please YOURSELF: please others for their EDUCATION.
* If you cannot define Areskos, Airo or Latin Placeo
* And he says instruments or any of they performing arts are not condemned.
* Then according to Christ in Jeremiah 23 says that you blaspheme the Holy Spirit OF Christ who outlawed that very thing in the prophets.
* If you cannot define words like SPORT or PLAY
* And you say that instruments are not OFTEN forbidden
* Then you are a blasphemer because you despise the inspired record left by Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jude and John in Revelation.
Christ in Isaiah 30 says that God's enemies will be beaten into hell to the sound of wind, string and percussion instruments.
John said that same thing about performance preachers, singers and instrument players: they will be cast alive into the lake of fire along with the dogs and LIARS.
Briann has fallen into Satan's Lair and according to Enoch and the idolatry at Mount Sinai he will never repent.
But then, he provides bit of comic relief for my broken head and black eye. He is the fulfilment of a PROPHETIC TYPE and that gives me LOTS of faith.
Brian will not be able to process this through a masculine Left brain because Music is noted as as creating a Testesterone Free Zone.
"The trained musicians which eventually appear around the time of David and Solomon mark a distinctive change in the history of Jewish music. Before this time much of the music was made by women." (Zondervan Pict., Music p. 313).
"Before the establishment of the kingdom under Saul, it was the women who, as in every young civilization, played a major part in the performance of music. Such figures as Miriam, Deborah, Jephtha's daughter, and the women hailing the young hero David have become almost archetypes of female musicians. Characteristic of all these cases is the familiar picture of a female chorus, dancing and singing, accompanied by frenzied drum-beating. This is the scene known to the entire Near East, and not even the severe rule of Islam could wholly suppress this age-old practice." (Int Dict of the Bible, Music, p. 457).
Plat. Laws 936c There shall be no beggar in our State; and if anyone attempts to beg, and to collect a livelihood by ceaseless [making Poieo meter, hymns] prayers, the market-stewards shall expel him from the market, and the Board of city-stewards from the city, and from any other district he shall be driven across the border by the country-stewards, to the end that the land may be wholly purged of such a creature. If a slave, male or female, do any injury to another man's goods,
Plato Republic 3. And therefore when any one of these pantomimic gentlemen, who are so clever that they can imitate anything, comes to us, and makes a proposal to exhibit himself and his poetry,
1. we will fall down and worship him as a sweet and holy and wonderful being;
2. but we must also inform him that in our State such as he are not permitted to exist; the law will not allow them.
3. And so when we have anointed him with myrrh, and set a garland of wool upon his head,
4. we shall send him away to another city. For we mean to employ for our souls' health the rougher and severer poet or story-teller, who will imitate the style of the virtuous only,
5. and will follow those models which we prescribed at first when we began the education of our soldiers.
We already have the directive to sing and make melody in our hearts; that is, use vocal music. God is EXPLICIT about vocal music, but He is SILENT about instrumental music. So why would anyone ASSUME that it is OK to ADD instrumental music, because God is "silent" about it? Has God explicitly said anywhere in Scripture that His silence is permissive or not prohibitive? NO. Has God granted us the freedom to supplement His explicit directives with whatever pleases us? NO. Yet rebellious MAN takes it upon himself to say that God's silence is permissive or not prohibitive. Man ADDS instrumental music to "accompany" and "enhance" the singing, which certainly pleases man, yet there is nothing in the New Testament that says God is pleased with accompanied and enhanced vocal music; only man thinks that way. People of such a mindset only want to do as they please. They are not at all satisfied with obeying God's explicit directives AS WRITTEN in the New Testament. Whatever they ADD to God's explicit directives is done to satisfy their own selfish, worldly desires.
Those who cite the man-made philosophy of "God's silence is not prohibitive" to ADD instrumental music could just as easily apply that same philosophy to the Lord's Supper. Jesus' directive says to use bread and fruit of the vine, yet He is "silent" about pizza and soft drinks, for example. That same man-made philosophy says we are not prohibited from ADDING pizza and soft drinks to the Lord's Supper and making it a festive meal.
Some might say, "That's a silly notion. No really sincere Christian would corrupt Jesus' directive about the Lord's Supper by ADDING pizza and soft drinks." Very well then, no really sincere Christian would corrupt God's directive about vocal music by ADDING instrumental music.
A person who looks for legalistic loopholes knowing that they are intending to sow massive discord, simply cannot know the infinite distance between themselves and a Spirit God. No one could read the Bible seeking TRUTH would never be able to even hallucinate a role for performance singers or performance players. To guard against those OF the WORLD and the WISE Sophists, The Spirit OF Christ hid hundreds of connections between INSTRUMENTS and the WORD HATERS.
I watched a program about Autism yesterday: they plotted the brain waves of both autistic and normal brains. The normal brain wave is very complex proving that it is doing its work keeping all of the normal processes going. When they intruced instrumental sounds the brain wave was totally controlled by the music. That is why all instrumental music terms define sorcery or witchcraft.
As pilgrims and strangers Jesus said that neither He nor believers are OF THE WORLD. The Kosmos is whatever naturally occurs to people's own imagination as they claim to ADORN or embellish or Aid the Word of God.
If The command is to PREACH the Word by READING the word without private interpretation (or further expounding), and people train rhetoricians, performance singers, instrument players and actors to AID the performance, they they are defined as not OF TRUTH or not OF FAITH.
They seek the MASSES and want "to be as much like the world as possible to WIN the Word." Paul said that the "twos and threes" will have to go OUTSIDE the GooGoo Cluster and suffer reproaches with Jesus as the only way He will "teach us.
1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit,
.....but try the spirits whether they are of God:
.....because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God:
.....Every spirit that confesseth
.....that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not
.....that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:
.....and this is that spirit of antichrist,
.....whereof ye have heard that it should come;
..........and even now already is it in the world.
1John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them:
.....because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1John 4:5 They are of the world:
.....therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us;
..... he that is not of God heareth not us.
.....Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Those OF the World--for whom Jesus refused to pray--have a different brain structure which is attuned to the Cosmic patterns.
kosmos , ho, generally, of things, natural order,
II. ornament, decoration, esp. of women, Hes.Op. 76,
Hes. WD 76 And Pallas Athena bedecked her form with all manner of finery. Also the Guide, the Slayer of Argus, contrived within her lies and crafty words and a deceitful nature at the will of loud thundering Zeus, [80] and the Herald of the gods put speech in her. And he called this woman Pandora,1 because all they who dwelt on Olympus gave each a gift, a plague to men who eat bread.
Metaphor., of ornaments of speech, such as epithets, Id.9.9 (pl.), Arist.Rh.1408a14, Po.1457b2, 1458a33; hadumel k. keladein to sing sweet songs of praise, Pi.O.11 (10).13 (s.v.l.).
5. houtos ho k. this present world, i.e. earth, opp. heaven, Ev.Jo.13.1; regarded as the kingdom of evil, ho arkhn tou k. toutou ib.12.31
Pind. O. 11 My tongue wants to foster such themes; [10] but it is by the gift of a god that a man flourishes with a skillful mind, as with anything else. For the present rest assured, Hagesidamus son of Archestratus: for the sake of your boxing victory,
..... I shall loudly sing a sweet song, an adornment for your garland of golden olive,
.....[15] while I honor the race of the Western Locrians.
There, Muses, join in the victory [Nike]-song; I shall pledge my word to you that we will find there a race that does not repel the stranger, or is inexperienced in fine deeds, but one that is wise and warlike too.
The RULER of this world made into an OBSERVATION where you attended church this morning is:
Kosmo-krator epith. of ouranos, Orph.H.4.3; Zeus Mitras Hlios k. Dam.Pr.131; hoi k. tou skotous toutou the cosmic rulers of this sinful world, Ep.Eph.6.12; hoi k. hoi ta hupo selnn stoikheia dioikountes
So, Jesus didn't say to the WORLD: "don't play instruments when speaking or discussing MY instructions: He just said that He would not teach your or EVEN pray for you.
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.69.226 on May 20, 2012 4:40 PM
This commits what is called the "Black or white" fallacy. You assume that, because there is no prohibition against musical instruments, those who state so must, by default, endorse the use of instrumental music. Not so. You are reading something into that statement that was never there. What else have you read eisogetically?
By the way, I'm still waiting on that list of particulars for "the pattern"; or did you read that into scripture as well?
Instead of saying "God's silence is not permissive or is not prohibitive" when desiring to implement something, it is better to ask, "Does God/Jesus address a particular subject, and if so, will implementing something alter what God/Jesus has already commanded?"
Consider this other questions first: Does any Scriptural passage grant us the freedom to alter any of God's/Jesus' commandments in the New Testament? NO.
Does God address music? YES. He commands us to sing and make melody in our hearts; that is, God specifies vocal music. Will implementing instrumental music alter what God has already commanded about music? YES. Since we are not free to alter God's command about vocal music, then we are limited to vocal music and may not add instrumental music or any other form of music.
Does Jesus address the Lord's Supper? YES. He commands us to use bread and fruit of the vine. Will implementing other emblems like pizza and soft drinks alter what Jesus has commanded about the Lord's Supper? YES. Since we are not free to alter Jesus' command about the Lord's Supper, then we are limited to bread and fruit of the vine and may neither add nor substitute other emblems.
Does God/Jesus address such items as church buildings, toilets, restrooms, pews, podiums, and the like? NO. Will implementing such items as they are alter anything that God has commanded? NO. That which God/Jesus specifically addresses in the New Testament is a doctrinal issue and must be followed AS WRITTEN; we are not free to alter it. On the other hand, that which God does not address is not a doctrinal issue and may be implemented as long as it does not alter any of God's existing commandments in any way.
Music and the Lord's Supper are doctrinal issues, because God/Jesus addresses both of them with specific commandments about them. Hence, we are not free to alter them in any way. On the other hand, church buildings, pews, and similar items are not doctrinal issues, because God/Jesus does not address them.
It's when God directed His followers to do "as it is spoken":
"God spake unto Noah...."
"God spake unto Moses...."
"Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you..." (Jer. 10:1)
"Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel..." (Jer. 28:2)
"... as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh..." (Ezek. 10:5)
"For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God..." (John 3:34)
It's when God directed His followers to do "as it is written":
"Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (I Pet. 1:16)
"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." (Rom. 14:11)
"... for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (Rom. 12:19)
"... as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace...." (Rom. 10:15)
"... as it is written, The just shall live by faith." (Rom. 1:17)
"Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer..." (Luke 24:46)
Teach and admonish one another in ... songs -- that is in Scripture
The conversion process or pattern is written in Scripture
The pattern for observance of the Lord's Supper is written in Scripture
The pattern for church leadership is written in Scripture
When God has said "absolutely nothing" about something, then His followers must respect that.
The argument that God actually thought about directing His followers to use musical devices and other accessories in the assembly of saints, but He just failed or forgot to put it in writing ...
True Christians will follow the teachings of Christ and His apostles in the New Testament AS WRITTEN, without searching for something MORE to please themselves.
Rebellious "Christians" will look at the Bible and say, "Surely there's gotta be something MORE than this" and look to the teachings of scoffers and unbelievers to satisfy them.
Totally agree with this, and everyone I know that has been labeled a "change agent" has been seeking to do the former only to be accused by others of the latter.
It would help to give us a link to a change agent:
Who teaches faith only by denying the Word
Who teaches that we should use "teams" or "instruments" to lead us into the presence of God.
Who uses Scripture to teach us to fellow ship those who reject the clea text.
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21 KJV). Notice that Jesus DOES NOT SAY, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth all that the will of my Father which is in heaven has not forbidden."
I think that means that God does not HAVE a will? If God does not have a will, then THEY can imagine their OWN WILL and this, according to the NACC, "is the will of God." They fall further into heresy by saying that THEY can impose their will on YOU and if you object then you are fighting against the Spirit of God.
The "singing" passages defines "that which is written for our learning" and Ephesians 5 demands that we KNOW THE WILL OF GOD before we speak one to another.
I believe that it is possible for people to NOT be able to read the Word: only those who have obeyed at baptism are given A holy spirit or A good conscience (1 Peter 3:21) which means "a co perception" of the Word with the ability to READ and HEAR the read Word.
I think that is spooker than flying tea cups: a Race of Vipers according to John or a Crooked Race whom John refused to baptized: the vipers only were promised a baptism of WIND and FIRE to sift the grain from the chaff. Jesus refused to reveal His Will to the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites Christ named in Ezekiel 33 as performance speakers, entertaining singers and instrument players. This, Christ says, is the MARK He has provided to identify people who love to be entertained by have NOT intention of obeying.
There is no Bible or Historical Exception to this ABSOLUTE pattern
May 20 2012, 9:56 PM
The Synagogue ordained by Christ in the wilderness Rested (from normal Sabbath paganism), Read and Rehearsed the Word of God. Later synagogues began with the SHEMA which confesses that there is only ONE GOD. JESUS AFFIRMED THAT. Thomas follows the PATTERN begun in the wilderness and which never changed. Later synagogues had a poor box in the back of the building for the POOR. Teachers in and around the synagogues made their own living including holding classes for students who paid them WHILE they were teaching the Word.
1. The first instituted act of christian worship is baptism into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
2. The next in the immediate order of connexion is prayer. See Acts xxii. 16, with Luke iii. 21. With what a beautiful and holy consistency is the religion of christianity ordained and exhibited!
3. But that this may be the case, the next immediate ordinance of the christian religion, namely, the reading, I mean the musing upon, or studying the Holy Scriptures; taking them up in their connexion, and meditating upon the subjects they propose to our consideration, with a fixed contemplation of the various and important objects which they present.
Expanding:
This dutiful and religious use of the bible, (that most precious, sacred record of the wonderful works of God, the only authentic source of all religious information,) is inseparably connected with, and indispensably necessary to, the blissful and all-important exercises of prayer and praise. Without this, those exercises must dwindle away to a trite form--must degenerate into a lifeless formality. It is from this dutiful and religious use of the divine word, that we derive the proper materials for those holy exercises.
Hence it is evident, that if we would be spiritually minded, spiritually exercised in this delightful and heavenly employment,
.....we must be filled with the Spirit;
.....and if we would be filled with the Spirit,
.....we must be filled with the word;
.....the word of Christ must dwell in us richly;
.....for we have no access to the Spirit but in and by the word.
.....John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life
He says. Behold I am against them that prophesy false dreams, says the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness. The prophet that has a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that has my word, let him speak my word faithfully; what is the chaff to the wheat? says the Lord. Is not my word like as a fire, says the Lord, and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces? Jer. xxiii. 16-32.
.....In consequence of such teaching as this,
.....how is the third great and fundamental ordinance of our holy religion,
.....the religious use of the Divine Word, obscured and perverted.
With what uninteresting formality, and coldrife indifference, do many read it; even of those who place some part of their religious worship in daily reading a portion of Holy Scripture, as if the mere reading of it were to save them.
Thomas Campbell moved away from quarterly Lord's Supper to a weekly observation: this to has no magical power. It shows forth or PREACHES the death of Jesus. That does no mean something beyond teaching the Word.
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.64.98 on May 20, 2012 10:38 PM This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.64.98 on May 20, 2012 10:00 PM
Romans 12 says to be transformed by the renewing of your mind. A mindset or disposition to be not conformed to this world and its arrogance and pride toward God. The simplicity and consistency of the word of God will never be replaced b y the ambiguous and pompous edits of mankind. Should we now start including the ambiguous and pompous ideas of men because there is no specific command against such?
People who say that God is SILENT have been given a supernatural sign. By mocking the Word of God and presuming to further teach Him, they have invited strong delusions and they believe their own lie. Remembering that we have noted the Prophets and Apostles as the EDUCATIONAL resource for building up the church. Jesus Christ is the "chief Corner Stone" which means that HE gets the glory as the SOLE pattern for us. The Spirit OF Christ spoke through the Prophets and Moses left us The Book of The Covenant of Grace (Abrahamic) and prophesied of Christ. ANYONE who presumes to speak "beyond the sacred page" has boasted that God did NOT supply all that pertains to life and Godliness. The MARK of lying wonders is well defined in the literature as "religious ceremonies dedicated to performances."
Those who OBEY God are the ONLY external PROOF as a strong WITNESS against those who do NOT seek God through HisWord.
Christ DID NOT SAY "thou shalt NOT be a witch" and you are perfectly free to perform all of the witchery or sorcery you wish: He INSISTS that you do so to make you feel cock sure. Go ahead: make God's day: remember that only a teeny weeny remnant are NOT of the World.
Maxey Foundation If the silence of scripture is prohibitive, then why was it ok for the Jews in Jesus time to include wine in the Passover meal? The scriptures were silent on such.
That is a lie and a blasphemy: He observed the Biblical Passover with roast lamb and bitter herbs.
Afterward, he took ONE CUP of the "Fruit of the vine" (not the vine of the fruits) and divided it 11 ways. This repudiated the Jews.
Mark 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites,
.....as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me,
.....teaching for doctrines the commandments of men
In the Ezekiel version hypocrites are performance preachers, singers and instrument players.
Matthew 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life,
.....and few there be that find it.
Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets,
.....which come to you in sheeps clothing,
.....but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
The Wolves or devious elders Paul warned against themselves PERFORM the Role. In the only sense that applies is a PEDARAST or a boy lover. All of the proof texts invented by the NACC (Maxey etal defacto) for proving that psallo means to PLAY AN INSTRUMENT in fact means to PLUCK. In ALL of the examples in the literature it was older males who PLUCKED the harp to seduce youth who had their hairs PLUCKED. Paul warned about that in
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Matthew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Thus saith the Lord God; Smite with thine hand, and stamp with thy foot, and say,
.....Alas for all the evil abominations of the house of Israel
.....for they shall fall by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence. Eze.6:11
For thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast clapped thine hands, and stamped with the feet,
.....and rejoiced in heart with all thy despite against the land of Israel; Eze.25:6
Behold, therefore I will stretch out mine hand upon thee,
.....and will deliver thee for a spoil to the heathen; and I will cut thee off from the people,
.....and I will cause thee to perish out of the countries:
.....I will destroy thee; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord. Eze 25:7
Maxey FoundationThe change agents teach that worship is to be changed to be more emotional in the Pentecostal denominational style;
There is nothing wrong with an uplifting worship service. Nehemiah 8:10 says "The joy of the Lord is our strength." At the same time, we need to be aware that some practices (lifting holy hands, clapping, singing during communion,etc) can cause a large amount of cognitive dissonance to people whose idea of "joy" includes a dry rendition of "The Old Rugged Cross".
The change agents CANNOT read or understand the whole context. They never did ANYTHING but listen when the Qahal, Synagogue or Church was in session.
Neh. 8:5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people;)
.....and when he opened it, all the people stood up:
Neh. 8:6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen,
.....with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads,
.....and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground unto the book of the law.
Lifting HOLY hands was a sign of devotion to the word of God: Waving female or effeminate ARMS was always a sign of "take me: I am ready."
Here is how you WORSHIP God:
.....7812. shachah, shaw-khaw´; a primitive root; to depress,
Neh. 8:7 Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai,
.....Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites,
.....caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place.
995. biyn, bene; a primitive root; to separate mentally (or distinguish), i.e. (generally) understand:--attend, consider, be cunning, diligently, direct, discern, eloquent, feel, inform, instruct, have intelligence, know, look well to, mark, perceive, be prudent, regard, (can) skill(-full), teach, think, (cause, make to, get, give, have) understand(-ing), view, (deal) wise(-ly, man).
Neh. 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly,
.....and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.
This was cantillation and never singing tunefully.7922. sekel, seh´-kel say´-kel; from 7919; intelligence; by implication, success:--discretion, knowledge, policy, prudence, sense, understanding, wisdom, wise.
Neh. 8:9 And Nehemiah, which is the Tirshatha, and Ezra the priest the scribe,
.....and the Levites that taught the people, said unto all the people,
.....This day is holy unto the LORD your God; mourn not, nor weep.
For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the law.
After they left SYNAGOGUE:
Neh. 8:10 Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet,
.....and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared:
.....for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry;
.....for the joy of the LORD is your strength.
Neh. 8:11 So the Levites stilled all the people, saying, Hold your peace, for the day is holy; neither be ye grieved.
2013. haw-saw´; a primitive root; to hush:--hold peace (tongue), (keep) silence, be silent, still.
2814. khaw-shaw´; a primitive root; to hush or keep quiet:--hold peace, keep silence, be silent, (be) still.
6087 {atsab, aw-tsab´; a primitive root; properly, to carve, i.e. fabricate or fashion; hence (in a bad sense) to worry, pain or anger:--displease, grieve, hurt, make, be sorry, vex, worship, wrest.
At the END of the day:
Nehemiah 8:12 And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions,
.....and to make great mirth,
.....because they had understood the words that were declared unto them.
Nehemiah 8:13 And on the second day were gathered together
.....the chief of the fathers of all the people, the priests, and the Levites,
.....unto Ezra the scribe, even to understand the words of the law.
They never read the court records of the Civil-Military-Clergy complex whom Nehemiah says were ROBBERS and were inflicted on them because of SIN and not as a pattern.
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on May 26, 2012 9:01 PM This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.65.95 on May 25, 2012 1:22 PM
He is not very different from pseudo conservatives. Even when the whole purpose of a vast 4 decades "infiltrate and divert effort" has been almost totally to try to force people to add instruments, and all of the blogs pour out hate against those who continue to teach the facts, you cannot imagine the violence "conservatives" can pour down your neck for "harping" against instruments.
I thought that if I repeated something a dozen times even the slow ones of the slow group could catch on. I think these people are really angels of blight. John said the musical performers in Revelation 18 were SORCERERS and they HAD deceived the whole world. The Blighettes whine "there hain't no commandment."
If you follow the directions for taking apart an atomic bomb, any qualified person would need no rules for what not to do. The Provost of Pepperdine warns against "those who rail against instrumental music" as if Pepperdine had not been a facilitator for changelings.
So, then, refute with your vast biblical knowledge. Your own research just may be good enough to refute another man's research.
Why should I waste my time when the moderators of this site are dishonest enough to delete everything with which they disagree? Ken's so-called "research" is garbage. He's built his theology on Stephen's speech to the Sanhedrin and applied it retroactively to the entire Old Testament. That violates the first rule of biblical hermeneutics - never, ever build doctrine on a single passage.
Even if Jesus commands something only once in the New Testament, it is doctrine. Or perhaps Brian needs a multitude of passages about the same subject before he will even consider following them.
Jesus says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15 KJV). He DOES NOT SAY, "If ye love me, keep only those commandments that I mention many times."
Brian wrote: "Why should I waste my time when the moderators of this site are dishonest enough to delete everything with which they disagree?"
Whenever a post is rejected, it can mean one or both of two things: (1) the subject matter is completely off-topic; (2) the comments expressed are so acrimonious or heinous as to be unfit for Christian consumption.
Brian wrote: "Why should I waste my time when the moderators of this site are dishonest enough to delete everything with which they disagree?"
Whenever a post is rejected, it can mean one or both of two things: (1) the subject matter is completely off-topic; (2) the comments expressed are so acrimonious or heinous as to be unfit for Christian consumption.
Then why is Ken still allowed to post?
==========================
Brian,
Wouldn't you allow yourself to "still" post, if you were one of the moderators? LOL
Ken is man enough to share his knowledge of the truth that is evidenced by his research. Ken's secular and educational background is in engineering. He is not an artist or a dramatist like Jeff Walling, another of your fellow change agents. So, he does not have the time to draw those pictures (that artists do) in order to depict what musical idolatry -- especially in conjunction with dancing -- achieves for the pagans and lustful "followers" [of God, professed]. It is time-saving to copy-and-paste those illustrations. You should know that certain strong-willed "Christ-followers" sometimes do not understand explanations -- pictures are needed.
So far, none of your posts has been deleted. (There is a difference in posts being: (1) deleted and (2) edited.
When you notice that your post is published anyway but with your original message removed or altered, it means that your message is too vile for the reader's consumption.
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on May 27, 2012 5:06 AM
Nehemiah defines the ONLY role of the Qahal which was held on each sabbath (rest) day after Israel was settled in the land. For the blasphemers God made a law which outlawed loud vocal or instrumental rejoicing including the rhetoricians as THE meaning of a hypocrite.
Moses made provisions for teaching The Book of The Covenant God in Christ made with Abraham: this was before the fall into musical idolatry and the giving of the Law of Moses. The "testimony" was by the Spirit OF Christ (Rev 19:10)
We have seen that the assembly was to be perfectly still and silent during the time of Qahal, synagogue or Church. They should not be sad but must rejoice AFTER the end of the Assembly of the Word (only) of God (only). We have seen that the changelings HAVE NEVER read the context of their proof texts which make them into liars and blasphemers: saying that the Spirit of Christ said something He did not say.
Ex. 18:20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws,
.....and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk,
.....and the work that they must do.
Ex. 18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide
.....out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness;
.....and place such over them, to be
.....rulers of thousands,
.....and rulers of hundreds,
.....rulers of fifties, and
.....rulers of tens:
A synagogue could be held any place there were ten males or heads of families. After the fall from grace by instrumental idolatry, God separated the Jacob-cursed tribe of Levi to carry out the NOT commanded sacrificial system which they choose for themselves. This NEVER changed. We know that "singing" was imposed as an ACT c. 373. This meant the use of their OWN COMPOSITIONS.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time
.....hath in every city
.....them that preach him,
.....being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
A contemporary of Alexander Campbell, R. L. Dabney uses Nehemiah 8 to define the nature of preaching.
"But the first full description of the nature of the exercise is the oft-cited passage from Nehemiah viii. 1-8,
.....when Ezra and his associates
....."read in the book of the law of God distinctly,
.....and gave the sense,
.....and caused them to understand the reading."
Here we have the true scriptural idea of the preacher's function:
.....to make the people understand what is in God's word.
The direct command for holding an assembly:
1Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to [public] reading, to exhortation [paraklesis comfort], to doctrine.
The Christian minister's commission is in these words: "Preach the word; (herald the word) be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and doctrine." (2 Tim. iv. 2.)
The object of preaching is the salvation of the soul; and that salvation consists in a redeption from the guilt, love and practice of iniquity. The instrument of this redemption is God's truth, as he has revealed it. "Sanctify them through thy truth."The preacher is most explicitly called a herald; that is, the deliverer of a message.
Now, the herald does not make his message, he merely transmits it. He has nothing to do with judging its wisdom or fitness; let him simply proclaim it as it is given to him. This was God's command to an ancient preacher: "Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee." (Jonah iii. 2.)
Consistent with all common sense, in Athenian Law poets or philosophers were not permitted to be heralds (kerusso = preachers or presbyters). That is because poetry means MAKING and there is nothing to MAKE in the Christian System
Nehemiah defines the only reason godly people were called OUT of their rest . However, speaking by the Spirit OF Christ
For they have not served thee in their kingdom, and in thy great goodness that thou gavest them,
.....and in the large and fat land which thou gavest before them,
.....neither turned they from their wicked works. Neh 9:35
Behold, we are servants this day, and for the land that thou gavest unto our fathers
.....to eat the fruit thereof and the good thereof, behold, we are servants in it: Neh 9:36
And it yieldeth much increase unto the kings
.....whom thou hast set over us because of our sins: .....also they have dominion over our bodies, and over our cattle,
.....at their PLEASURE, and we are in great distress. Neh 9:37
God had warned what happens when you reject God's Law and demand a human king. This is the agenda when preachers begin a hostle attack against elders and demand (Shelly) that they just be the shepherds of the minister who is better qualified.
And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. 1 Samuel 8:13
.....And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards,
.....even the best of them, and give them to his servants. 1 Samuel 8:14
.....And he will take the tenth of your seed,
.....and of your vineyards, and give to his officers,
.....and to his servants. 1 Samuel 8:15
And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants,
.....and your goodliest young men, and your asses,
.....and put them to his work. 1 Samuel 8:16
He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants. 1 Samuel 8:17
And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you;
.....and the Lord will NOT hear you in that day. 1 Samuel 8:18
DOMINANT PREACHERS OR Human kings take, take, take, take, take and GIVE to his friends. And YOU are not going to like it.
This proves that the king was more than a military commander who could use his charism to call up an army. The full implications go further: He will make you into a SLAVE NATION just like all other NATIONS where the god's agents lived in the temple.
Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us; 1 Samuel 8:19
.....First: That we also may be like all the nations;
.....and that our king may judge us,
Second: and go out before us,
.....and fight our battles. 1 Samuel 8:20
Maxey-Cade Claim: The change agents teach that pattern theology is an abomination;
Pattern theology teaches that a man can earn salvation by keeping to a scripted code of conduct and action, so that come the day of judgment, God has no choice but to allow you into heaven.In other words, pattern theology is a special case of works theology, which spits in the face of clear scriptural teaching to the contrary."For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8,9
That's a big fat lie: a Maxeyism. All discord is sown by clery who should be selling used toothbrushes, who follow the PATTERNISM of quoting texts out of context and therefore forcing the Spirit OF Christ to lie for them.
THE MAXEY GRACE THESIS: All of the Graces and Muses (musicians). The musicians in Revelation 18 are called SORCERERS who had deceived the whole world. The brides and bridegroups speak of the Hiero-Gamos or sacred marriage ceremony acted out by males and females.
Muses. In Greek mythology originally the Nymphs of inspiring springs, then goddesses of song in general, afterwards the representatives of the various kinds of poetry, arts, and sciences. In Homer, who now speaks of one, and now of many Muses, but
(she that extols), the Muse of history ; with a scroll. (3) euterpe (she that gladdens), the Muse of lyric song ; with the double flute. (4) thalia (she that flourishes), the Muse of comedy and bucolic poetry; with the comic mask, the ivy wreath, and the shepherd's staff. (5) melpomene (she that sings), the Muse of tragedy; with tragic mask, ivy wreath, and occasionally with attributes of individual heroes, e.g. the club, the sword. (6) terpsichore (she that rejoices in the dance), the Muse of dancing ; with the lyre. (7) erato (the lovely one), the Muse of erotic poetry; with a smaller lyre. (8) P6LYMNIA or
they are considered as goddesses dwelling in Olympus, who at the meals of the gods sing sweetly to the lyre of Apollo, inspire the poet and prompt his song. Hesiod [The.og. 52-, 76-,] calls them the nine daughters of Zeus and Mnemosyne, born in Plena, and mentions their names, to which we shall at the same time add the province and the attributes afterwards assigned to each (sec cuts). (1) CALLIOPE (she of the fair voice), in Hesiod the noblest of all, the Muse of epic song; among her attributes are a wax-tablet and a pencil. (2) CLIO
The only 'psallo' music connection: why melody is to be IN THE HEART
9.[1] The resounding strain of Archilochus, the swelling thrice-repeated song of triumph, sufficed to lead Epharmostus to the hill of Cronus, in victory-procession with his dear companions.
[5] But now, from the bow of the Muses who, shooting from afar, send a shower of such arrows of song as these on Zeus of the red lightning-bolt and on the sacred height of Elis, which once the Lydian hero Pelops [10] won as the very fine dowry of Hippodameia.
[25] the Muses of Olympus, daughters of Zeus who holds the aegis: "Shepherds of the wilderness, wretched things of shame, mere bellies, we know how to speak many false things as though they were true; but we know, when we will, to utter true things."
[11] And shoot a winged sweet arrow to Pytho; for your words will not fall to the ground, short of the mark, when you trill the lyre in honor of the wrestling of the man from renowned Opus.
THE CHRISTIAN ANTITHESIS: CAUSES ONE TO REJECT AND REPUDIATE TURING THE SCHOOL OF THE WORD INTO A PERFORMANCE
YOU MUST REPENT OF THE MAXEY METHOD AND BE SILENT BEFORE A HOLY GOD BEFORE YOU CAN BE SAVED.
Salvation by Grace through faith is PROVEN, says Paul by what he said in MOST of his letters. Acts 2 is the first demonstration of this ACTION which proved and still proved that God saves by grace through faith when we accept that Grace. 1 Peter 3:21 says that BAPTISM SAVES because that is the only way to REQUEST A good conscience or A holy spirit. The SEAL which is always a visible demonstration is obedience at baptism. How despicible to encourage people to DENY what Christ in Isaiah and Malachi prophesied and what HE decided to be the WAY or instrumental means of both bestowing and PROVING that one has been saved by THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST.
Al Maxey: If you should desire to get into an intense theological discussion with someone, one that may quickly deteriorate into quite a heated debate, just bring up the topic of baptism. It will not be boring! Few of us question the fact that the NT writings place some significance upon the place of baptism in our spiritual journey.
Because "the Churches of Christ have always taught that baptism is the event during which salvation occurs" [ibid]. Thus, we have historically insisted upon "a sacramental understanding"..
Churches of Christ teach that baptism is the event where salvation occurs.
Churches of Christ DO NOT believe that baptism is a sacrament which means that it is just as effective on an infant as it is on a believer.
Al Maxey:The Churches of Christ, I am embarrassed to admit, have a reputation for being among the worst, changing rapidly and dramatically in our fellowship as my brethren are taking off their sectarian blinders although I am very pleased to report this is
and discovering what the Scriptures actually teach on a number of issues
in which, previously, divine Truth took a backseat to human Tradition.
Al is not reading from the Bible but Baptist theology.
Al Maxey: Somewhere in the middle are those who view baptism as an "ordinance" of the church -- i.e., it is necessary to be baptized in obedience to the Lord's command, but it's NOT NECESSARY to the acquiring of salvation itself, which is "by grace through faith.
Paul said that BAPTISM will always be the SHOWING ACT to prove that salvation is by grace through faith and NOT the legalism of instrumental music or taking money for people you cannot support. Shame.
The Lord commanded baptism and connected remission of sins with it. How can one obey that good news and think that obeying God's commands have nothing to do with salvation?
2Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
.....and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
.....and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Only those who have obeyed the command to be baptized were ADDED by Christ to His Church.
HOWEVER, Paul says that we are NOT free from sin until we have "obeyed that pattern capable of being imitated" or baptism.
You will notice that the same Paul compares THE LAW to GRACE. THE FAITH or TRUTH or SPIRIT are names for the Gospel of Jesus Christ which GIFTS the act of baptism to wash away sins UNDER GRACE which could NOT be washed way under THE LAW. But, then Al denies that in baptism we WASH AWAY OUR SINS. This is not legalism because it is not a provision of THE LAW but is GRACE because it is under GRACE-PERSONIFIED. Let Al find remission of sins, the gift of A holy spirit (ours), A good conscience (consciousness), being added to the Church by Christ and having our spirits translated into a heavenly kingdom which CANNOT be reached by those trying to make the kingdom come by religious rituals: reading and discussing the Word is the only way to reach our spirits and the only way that spirit can be transformed as it is protected from the singy-clappy erotic praise singers.
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on May 26, 2012 8:56 PM This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.129.221 on May 25, 2012 6:02 PM
Al Maxey and his enablers such as Grace Centered Magazine calls Jesus a liar when He said "he that believeth (complieth) AND is baptized shall be saved." He that believeth not (Apistos or complieth not) shall be damned.
They call Paul a liar when He said that remission of sins comes AFTER obedience in baptism.
They call Peter a liar when he said that BAPTISM SAVES
They call Christ the Spirit a liar when he had Paul told "Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins."
They call the entire history of the faithful church for 2000 years which makes remission of sins impossible to day for those who "obey not the gospel of Christ."
The live off widows and hard working people and betray the believes of their employer: Apistos or believeth not after all mean "a treacherous person in revolt against God."
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.64.37 on May 26, 2012 12:25 PM This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.64.37 on May 26, 2012 12:24 PM
Personal opinions NOT ALLOWED where Jesus is the only Teacher
May 26 2012, 12:53 PM
Romans 14 outlaws anything that does not edify or educate in the assembly (romans 15) where the COMMAND is to speak "with one mind and one mouth that which is written for our learning." No one with eyes or ears could fail to read that.
Brian accuses Ken of quoting the Bible out of context, but from what I've seen, I'm not really sure that Brian has enough knowledge of Scripture to know if or when it is quoted out of context.
The change agents reject the concept of "Law of Silence," because that expression is not found in Scripture. Yet its PRINCIPLE is definitely found in the Old and New Testaments alike when we are told not to add to or take from God's Word:
"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you" (Deut. 4:2 KJV).
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book" (Rev. 22:18-19 KJV).
When God commands anything, we are not free to expand upon or edit His commands according to what pleases us. That's what the two passages above mean. God doesn't have to say, "Worship me with singing but not with mechanical instruments." His explicit directive that we worship Him with singing is sufficient alone. To add instruments when God hasn't commanded them in the New Testament is to pollute God's directive.
On the other hand, the change agents' excuse to do as they please is, "God didn't say not to do thus and so." That statement is not only absent from the Old and New Testaments, there is no principle even remotely akin to it. The reason is that "God didn't say not to do thus and so" is a fabrication of those who are dissatisfied with following God's Word AS WRITTEN in the New Testament.
The "Law of Silence" is a man-made construct. When God forbids something, He speaks to it specifically. Silence does not permit or prohibit.
The above quotes are taken out of context. Moses was told not to add to or take away from the Law given by God. John was told not to add to or take from the message given in Revelation.
I find ironic you find it necessary to interpret the command to sing to mean only a capella music is allowed. Isn't that adding to scripture when you seek to bind your preference on others? Doesn't that violate Romans 14 - "All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth , or is offended , or is made weak . Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
Nowhere in scripture does God condemn or forbid instrumental music. Yet you would change the plain meaning of the passage to mean singing only. Who then is the "change agent"? Don't you recognize the double standard inherent in your argument? Apparently not.
You ADD to Scripture when you ADD instrumental music to the vocal music that God has explicitly commanded. You ADD another kind of music that God has NOT commanded in the New Testament. You say the the "Law of Silence" is a man-made construct. You seem to forget that "God didn't say not to do thus and so" is also a man-made construct. Nowhere in the New Testament does God command instrumental music in Christian worship on earth. You base having instrumental music on what God DOESN'T SAY, rather than what He DOES say. When you ADD instrumental music, you go BEYOND what God has commanded, BEYOND what He has written in the New Testament. Christianity is based on what is WRITTEN in the New Testament, not on man making wild assumptions that he can do as he pleases because God doesn't cover every conceivable "Thou shalt not."
You ADD to Scripture when you ADD instrumental music to the vocal music that God has explicitly commanded. You ADD another kind of music that God has NOT commanded in the New Testament. You say the the "Law of Silence" is a man-made construct. You seem to forget that "God didn't say not to do thus and so" is also a man-made construct. Nowhere in the New Testament does God command instrumental music in Christian worship on earth. You base having instrumental music on what God DOESN'T SAY, rather than what He DOES say. When you ADD instrumental music, you go BEYOND what God has commanded, BEYOND what He has written in the New Testament. Christianity is based on what is WRITTEN in the New Testament, not on man making wild assumptions that he can do as he pleases because God doesn't cover every conceivable "Thou shalt not."
You ADD to scripture when you bind a prohibition on your brethren that God never speaks to.
Proponents of instrumental music "justify" it by stating that when God forbids something, He is ALWAYS explict. They mistakenly reason that if God had forbidden instrumental music, He would have explicitly said so in the New Testament.
Apparently the proponents of instrumental music don't realize that God forbids in more than one way. He is sometimes explicit, as in "Thou shalt not kill"; at other times, He generalizes. A prime example of general forbidding is God's command that we neither add to nor take from any of His commandments. God has specified singing (vocal music), and that's as far as He goes. That's as far as any of us may go if we want to follow His directive properly. If we go over, above, and beyond what God has specified within that command or any other command, we sin. Therefore, it should be clear to discerning Christians that if we ADD instrumental music or any other kind of music to vocal music, we sin.
Do not make the mistake of assuming that everything God forbids MUST be mentioned explicitly by name. We have clearly shown that God does NOT always work that way.
Do not make the mistake of assuming that everything God forbids MUST be mentioned explicitly by name. We have clearly shown that God does NOT always work that way.
No you have not shown anything except the ability to regurgiate dogma and a remarkable talent for misrepresenting someone else's argument and position. Silence neither permits or prohibits. Specificity permits or prohibits. God is silent about the use of instrumental music.
You evidently believe that God's neither-add-to-nor-take-from command applies only to Deuteronomy and Revelation. Had you believed that it applied to ALL books of the Bible, you would not add any other kind of music to the vocal music that God commands in the New Testament. You would not add to or take from anything that God commands. As it stands, with the exceptions of Deuteronomy and Revelation, you evidently believe that the Bible is open game for whatever you want to implement, despite God's specifications about certain matters. In that case, you must believe that you need not stay within the bounds of the commands that God has explictly written in the New Testament. Therefore, you feel that you may freely execute your own personal judgment regarding God's explicit commands. In other words, to get what you want, you will go over, above, and beyond what God has commanded in the New Testament and not bat an eye.
Hmmm...As I study the description above, an adjective comes to mind: ROGUE. While there are several different meanings for "rogue," the following seems to fit the description above: "no longer obedient, belonging, or accepted and hence not controllable or answerable; deviating, renegade" (dictionry.com). You could say that the description above fits a SPIRITUAL DEVIANT, a SPIRITUAL RENEGADE.
Change Agents rule: "Silence neither permits or prohibits."
Where did this come from? The Quran? The U.S. Constitution? The Change Agents?
Let's give the Change Agents' "Silence Rule" a test:
(1) The Scripture is silent about using instrumental music in the assembly
(2) The Change Agents' Silence Rule states: "neither permits nor prohibits"
(3) The Change Agents, in violation of their own rule, CHOOSE: "permits" and REJECT: "prohibits"
The Change Agents' Rule of: "Silence NEITHER prohibits nor permits" is clearly violated by the same change agents. Strange!!!
If the change agents would just let the New Testament be their guide, there would be no reason for them to obfuscate and equivocate.
This passage clearly explains their doctrinal stances:
"[14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ." (Ephesians 4, KJV)
All of this blathering and no one has answered the question, "What is the pattern?" "Read the New Testament for yourself and figure it out" is not an answer. That's what is known as a double-bind; no one correct answer exists.
You seem to be the only one recycling the same question. With as many as 250+ messages that have been posted, it is apparent that you do not agree with any of them. [I'm reminded of a story about one religious group singing, "Will there be any stars in my crown"; and the other neighboring church responding in song: "NO, NOT ONE."]
Now, we can't help you with that.
We've defined the expression "pattern."
We've considered the term "the pattern" too broad and attempted to clarify and be more specific by appending the word "for"; thus, e.g.:
-- What is the pattern for church organization?
-- What is the pattern for church leadership?
-- What is God's design or process of conversion?
-- What is the pattern for the observance of the Lord's Supper?
You've been asked if you wanted each or any of the above discussed in more detail? No response from you!!!
Anon, the question of "what is the pattern for ______" essentially means "how." I do not see why you object so much to the New Testament being our guide?
-- Would you prefer the Quran as our guide?
-- The Book of Mormon?
-- The early writings of Ellen G. White?
-- The change agents and their anti-church of Christ stances?
-- "Let your conscience be your guide"?
It's been stated that the answers to "What is the pattern for thus and so?" are found in the teachings of Christ and His apostles in the New Testament. Yet Anon keeps saying that no one can tell him what "the pattern" for anything is. It sounds like Anon either is not satisfied with Christ's teachings after having read the New Testament and wants something more; OR Anon has refused to study the New Testament at all. As I recall, Anon hasn't mentioned anything about that, one way or another. He has neither said, "I just don't understand Christ's teachings and want help," nor has he said, "I don't believe Christ's teachings." Anon just keeps saying that no one can show him "the pattern" (to his satisfaction).
When a person gives the appearance of wanting answers, all of which point to finding them in the New Testament, yet that person rejects those answers every time, it's as if that person is saying, "Don't mention the New Testament to me! Can't you steer me to something MORE substantial than that?"
The matter here is that some don't accept the statement that all that pertains to life and godliness is found in the scriptures. The holy spirit made that fundamental assertion of truth, not Campbell. What tells on the change agents is that they then seek the advice of men with their recycled traditions from other religious groups and propaganda about the history of the restoration movement. We are to make followers of Christ not merely entertain folks, we don't "do church" we worship in spirit and truth, we are to love God with all of our being and not be mere minions of mind control.
We are to teach the elect to not love the world or things in the world - we should not worship or serve the thinking of men.
Today I did a Google search for this term, What is the Church of Christ pattern? The search returned 905,000 hits. In most every case, the churches and individuals that came up in my sampling insist that the New Testament provides a pattern for worship which must be followed.
Interestingly, I could not find many who stated what the pattern is. Those in my sample who did define it included pattern components different from each other. Many patternists teach that the pattern extends far beyond worship, and their pattern is more elusive than the first.
No agreement as to definition
One Church of Christ insists that the five acts of worship (singing, praying, preaching, giving, and the Lords Supper) are the pattern. So they will quote verses that support those five things. Another Church of Christ will add baptism for the remission of sins and singing only a cappella to the pattern of the one true church. Still another adds to the pattern a requirement that only the King James Version of the Bible be used in public readings. The width and breadth of the supposed pattern is limited only by the number of people who define it.
The problem with patternism is the pattern. If what devout patternists proclaim is true, wouldnt it make sense that it would be relatively easy to find in the Bible? I am well aware of many of the proof texts but I must ask, Is everyone reading the same Bible?
What about those earliest Christians who, for perhaps two generations, got along quite well before many of the proof texts were written, and for sure before they were widely distributed? Were those early believers not able to worship God acceptably?
When patternism becomes sin
The title of this article is rather strong indictment. Tell me Im wrong. At least one book has been written, plus scores of articles in periodicals and on blogs, condemning North Richland Hills Church of Christ in Texas, for its decision to include instrumental music in one of many Sunday services.
The attitude of those passing judgment is simple: Forget all the Christian service this church provides in its community, forget its faithfulness to preach Christ, to baptize believers and to live holy, loving lives. No Sir! These Christians went outside the supposed pattern and are damned because of it.
It is one thing to decided what is permissible individually or for my congregation, but when I apply that standard to every other Christian, and then teach that they will be lost if they do not comply, I am guilty of teaching another gospel and commit a grievous sin.
I recently listed over 40 different issues about which some Churches of Christ have divided, refused to acknowledge each other as brothers, and condemned each other to hell-fire. In each case, one group insists the other violated the pattern. In each case, the folks condemning have concluded that what the other people are doing is unauthorized, which puts them in open rebellion against God and means they are lost.
When this happens, Patternism becomes a template for sin! Those who design the template require everyone who claims to follow Jesus to fit their exact template or be lost. In Jesus day, the patternists were called Pharisees. Among some Churches of Christ today, they are called elders and preachers, but they are cut from the same cloth.
Yes, there is one pattern we should apply to our lives as believers. His name is Jesus.
Royce wrote: "Yes, there is one pattern we should apply to our lives as believers. His name is Jesus."
That is true but it is a bit incomplete. The statement should say, "Yes, there is one pattern we should apply to our lives as believers, and that pattern is the teachings of Jesus and His apostles as written in the New Testament."
Jesus submitted Himself to the Musical Mocking by the Jacob-cursed Levites as well prophesied in Psalm 41.
Jesus didn't have a place to lay his head at night.
Therefore, Royce (Brian) is DUTY BOUND to get himself nailed on a cross.
None of the progressives can read the Word.
Paul used the word KNOW
They substitute the word PREACH.
Therefore, they are terminal liars if they do not get up this sunday and tell the story about Jesus being Crucified, sit down, and set up a repayment play to repay all of the widow's living and loss of church family because someone had "A" spirit tell him to IMPOSE the same curse Jacob pronounced on the Levites.
The Vineyard, the New Wineskins and proven by the erotic praise songs, is that they really want to KNOW God in a sexual way. That is why they try to stimulate one another with voice and body manipulation. The climatic experience they say is experiencing God personally.
When Adam KNEW Eve the Word is:
co-gnosco I. To become thoroughly acquainted with (by the senses or mentally), to learn by inquiring, to examine, investigate, perceive, see, understand, learn;
B. Mentally, to become acquainted with, learn, recognize, know:
II. To recognize that which is already known, acknowledge, identify
III. With the access. idea of individual exertion (cf. Gr. gignsk), to seek or strive to know something, to inquire into, to investigate, examine
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
However, in the sense of corrupting the Word or "selling learning at retail" is also adultery.
euphem of sexual intercourse, Ov. H. 6, 133 aliquam adulterio
The religious world is in utter contempt of "musical worship teams" whose PERSONA is bi-sexual or they would NEVER have been selected by the feminine half of the flock.
Brian cannot even FIND an end-time preacher who does not KNOW HIMSELF rather than just seeking to know WHAT Jesus taught without trying to invent dogma to make the "experience" more climatic.
The New Wineskins and your new "praise song book from Howard" is a Vineyard THRUST.
I have not read all 268 responses to this post so I apologize if the following point has already been mentioned: doesn't a pattern have to have at least two occurances? If something is mentioned as happening only once can we call that a pattern?
Specifically, the followers of Christ in a community took up a collection on the first day of the week. That is mentioned only once in the New Testament. Did the author mean for it to be a pattern or just a statement of fact of what happened on one day in the first century church?
I can understand baptism by immersion because it is mentioned at least a dozen times in the NT. But, my question is if something happened once is it sufficient to label it a pattern?
If it is a PATTERN it absolutely limits the collection to be handcarried to the elders to care for the destitute at the time Paul submitted a chance for people to give. He had not commanded them but some had volunteered--a year ago.
The command to Lay by HIM means from most recorded history is that Jim lays by Jim in storage. The first day of the week was their first workday. They could take part of that first day's wage and put it in his own safe keeping.
Then when Paul's agents came everyone would bring in their own collections so that it could be put together and it would be sent to Judea with a bunch of hands making sure that it wasn't pilfered. It did not belong to the receiving elders but was dedicated to the famine which was by now--a year later--less severe.
Paul said that it was NOT a command and he wanted the total monies collected before he arrived. He worried that this might amount to extortion.
In church history the practice was continued "but only if one was willing" and it was still dedicated to the poor or traveler.
With Paul, it seems that the individuals from previous stops supported him and he did not charge for the gospel to separate himself from those looking for a job.
Because of real slick tricks--two played on me--I would never give to the "treasurer" where the "leaders" insist that I have no more control. That means that they can get their property paid for by "gifts to the lord" and then divert the monies into becoming a different "denomination." I'm not sure that in these latter days that I would give to "tower builders" and "staff collectors."
Only those who were given free food-producing farms, flocks, houses, orchards were to tithe ONCE a year.
And Jesus paid the "temple tax" and sons of a king don't pay religious taxes. Once upon a time you could really trust people. Really sad.
"Pattern" by definition is a design or plan. As in a "blueprint" for a house or a 75-story building. There may be duplicate copies of the same/original blueprint to be used; nonetheless, it is one final blueprint.
It does not have to be a number of occurrences for it to be a pattern. The number of times baptism is mentioned in the New Testament is not the reason for it becoming a pattern. Actually, the conversion process is a pattern -- it is God's plan of salvation described in the New Testament -- and baptism is a part of that pattern, the conversion process.
There is, however, a mode of baptism. We can scripturally conclude that baptism is by IMMERSION. As you said, it is by immersion -- that is correct. Expressions as in "coming up out of the water" prove that point -- the point that it is the only mode of baptism -- and that excludes sprinkling and pouring.
Therefore, God's plan of salvation, the conversion process in accordance with New Testament specifications, is a pattern; and one final part of that pattern is being buried with Christ in baptism for [in order to, so that, toward, unto] the remission of sins and being resurrected with Christ to begin newness of life as a Christian. (Faith or believing in Christ as the Son of God does not forgive sins as it is only the beginning step of the entire conversion process. Simply, forgiveness of sins DOES NOT OCCUR PRIOR to being buried with Christ in baptism. Sorry, change agents who modify and degrade the significance and purpose of baptism ... just to get along with others and their creeds.)
In the case of the "collection for the saints," the Scripture reveals to me is that it is NOT tithing (forced giving by percentages per the O.T. Levitical requirements). Rather, it is liberal giving (I Cor. 16:3) "as God hath prospered him" (v. 2). "Upon the first day of the week" suggests that it was when the saints regularly assembled. Of course, the saints should be able to contribute at any time. But during that time, the first day of the week of the assembly, it was convenient and efficient to do the collection "that there be no gatherings when I come" (v. 2). The important message here is that it is about liberal giving as God has prospered and that it is a collection "for the saints." That was the instruction (an example for Christians today) "to the churches in Galatia" (v. 1) and "them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem" (v. 3) -- NOT as wages for the professional services of "the Worship Leader" or of "Christian" musical concerts. OK, I did not say "pattern" -- I did simply say liberal giving -- a collection "for the saints."
So, there is the pattern of conversion: God's plan of salvation. The New Testament clearly specifies the steps [the change agents detest "the steps" ... I know] scripturally -- clearly in a logical and chronological manner that one outside of Christ can understand and follow, without the distortions coming from the change agents and denominational creeds.
There is also the pattern for the church -- its structure with Christ as its foundation and builder. The New Testament's specifications are clear.
There is also the pattern for church leadership per the New Testament layout. Again, the New Testament specifications are clear and simple.
All else, consult the New Testament for SPECIFIC directives and commands.
Donnie,
"Baptism" is a transliteration of "baptizo" meaning "to immerse". There's no such thing as "baptism" by "sprinkling", etc. That's a logical and linguistic inconsistency, forming what is known in formal debate as a
"straw man" argument. You really need to learn what you are talking about.
You should know by now that our messages are directed: (a) not only to the apostatizing change agents and their followers (b) but also to those who adhere to human creeds, such as those religious groups that practice "sprinkling" or "pouring" instead of "immersing." It appears now that you weren't even aware of such practices by others.
(a) To the apostates or apostatizers and their followers, the issue regarding baptism is not what it literally means -- "to baptize" is "to immerse" -- and that is a given. The issue with the change agents, generally, is their modified doctrine that it's not about God's intended purpose, i.e., ["eis"] in order to have sins forgiven. They're essentially teaching, as the Baptists are, that sins are forgiven PRIOR TO immersion and that baptism (immersion) is only symbolic or a ritual.
(b) To certain denominations that practice sprinkling or pouring, the issue begins with the mode of baptism. Tell them the transliteration of "baptizo" being "to immerse" -- they will not comprehend you. You will still have to try to prove by necessary inference [I know, you HATE the C.E.N.I. principle] that "coming up out of the water" clearly illustrates and makes it conclusive that those who were baptized were immersed.
This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!
...........................THE BOOK
What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?
There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.
This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison
Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource
references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least
you will recognize the signs early on.
Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't
know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.
Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was
one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.
It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of
it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word
of Jesus Christ.
At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority
of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly
realm.
They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and
to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.
The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan.
Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books,
seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change
so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....
At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to
be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched
through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the
"Community Church Movement"
Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready,
or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the
plans very nature, it had to be secret.
The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was
never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last
15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.
The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the
elders went along unwittingly.
This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell
something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill
in some of the timeline.
To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the
background materials in the first of the book.
This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be
printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our
web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison
Here is the list of players;
5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten
commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
You remind me somewhat of Brian Cade as that seems to be one of his methods of critiquing posts.
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Therion.Beast.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Religious.ObservationsA.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Red.Herring.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Philippians.3.Dogs.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.3.EffeminoA.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.3.EffeminoB.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/wolf6.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Ephesians2.Rom6.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.1.BaptismA.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.1.BaptismB.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.1.BaptismC.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Blasphemy.Jeremiah23.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/John.17.Pray.World.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/h4744.Miqra.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Maxey.SynagogueA.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Maxey.SynagogueB.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Maxey.SynagogueC.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Maxey.SynagogueD.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Maxey.SynagogueE.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.8.Word.Light.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/PriestsHandsTissotCrop.jpg)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Titus.Acts.Grace.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Titus.Romans.Baptism.gif)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/FoolMidas.gif)