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Lack of Perspective or Lack of Faith?

May 2 2012 at 4:46 PM
Anonymous  (Login BrianCade)
from IP address 216.67.57.111

As I was scrolling down the landing page, I noticed a question "Is the church headed for apostasy?" Initially I blew it off as a loaded question but after I thought about it, I decided "No, it isn't." Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against it and who am I to doubt Him? Regardless of how it is delivered, the message remains the same.

 
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AuthorReply
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Lack of Perspective or Lack of Faith?

May 3 2012, 1:53 AM 

Brian,

The topic "Lack of Perspective or Lack of Faith" sounds appealing, but what's your premise? Lacking ... on whose part?

Is the church headed for apostasy? That's a challenging but a fair question. [Brian, in case you now prefer this to be the title, let me know and I'll change it.]

Here's the narrative pertaining to the church:


  1. Jesus said to Peter, "... upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it," (Matt. 16:18).
  2. In the following verse, it says: "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven...."
  3. Then in the following verse 28 (and in Mark 9:1 as well), it says: "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."
  4. In Acts 1 and 2, we find the kingdom come with power ...

Questions: Are the words "church" and "kingdom" synonymous or used interchangeably? Do you believe that they are? Why do agents of the Change Movement do not believe and do not teach this New Testament pattern of the church anymore?

 
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Brian Cade
(Login BrianCade)
216.67.71.130

Re: Lack of Perspective or Lack of Faith?

May 3 2012, 3:55 AM 

Thanks, Donnie, the title is fine as is.

As to your questions, let me start with your premise. Granted, there are a lot of like-minded and very prominant individuals advocating for changes in the way the church of Christ does things, but I'm still undecided as to whether or not it is an organized effort with a formal structure. Even then, there is no reason to fear it. You can acknowledge its existence without being afraid (2 Tim. 1:7)

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Lack of Perspective or Lack of Faith?

May 3 2012, 4:14 AM 

Brian,

I do not understand why suddenly you'd bring up "reason to fear." Any "reason to fear" is neither a factor nor an issue with me.

There are questions related to your initial message:

-- A lack of perspective on the part of whom or which group?
-- A lack of faith on the part of whom or which group?
-- An organized effort by whom or which group?

I like the expression "a formal structure" or "a structure." It is parallel to a design or a pattern. From the church's standpoint or the individual Christian's, the pattern or structure must be God-approved or New Testament-based.


 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
216.67.57.216

Re: Lack of Perspective or Lack of Faith?

May 3 2012, 1:32 PM 

Regarding a lack of perspective - I take statements like "The church is heading for apostasy" with a large grain of salt. That is too broad a statement. God won't allow that to happen. Remember Elijah complaining to God that he was the only one left to worship Him? God essentially told Elijah not to think so much of himself because there were plenty of others. Elijah's problem was discouragement and consequently his focus became too narrow. He lacked perspective on the issue.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.71.220

Jesus will not fail

May 3 2012, 2:07 PM 

The REMNANT will be very tiny: if God reserved 7,000 who had not bowed to Baal out of several millions, only a FEW (almost none) will be chosen meaning testing as by fire.

Here is one of the many reasons why to KNOW a crucified Savior is to go OUTSIDE of the massed multitutes and suffer reproaches. The MARK of a beast is that a preacher is applauded and pretty rich. Nothing fills his coffers better than music that HYPNOTIC drug. Shelly etal even BOAST about creating a GROUP MENTALITY.

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate:
....for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction,
....and many there be which go in thereat:

Lk 13:20 And again he said,
....Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?

Lk 13:21 It is like leaven,
....which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal,
....till the whole was leavened.

Lk 13:22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.

Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord,
....are there few that be saved?
....And he said unto them,
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate:
....for many [almost all], I say unto you,
....will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up,
....and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without,
....and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us;
....and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Luke 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say,
....We have eaten and drunk in thy presence,
....and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you,
....I know you not whence ye are;
....depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth,
....when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets,
i....n the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
216.67.57.86

Re: Jesus will not fail

May 3 2012, 7:59 PM 

Raise your hand and wait till you're called on, Ken.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
99.177.249.211

Re: Jesus will not fail

May 4 2012, 2:53 AM 

Brian,

Did you not hear Ken say, "I approve this message"? [And Ken is not running for president. happy.gif ] Yes, it was Ken who approved your message, although it was uncalled-for.

Ken quoted passages from Scripture, and they made references to "the remnant" ... destruction ... the kingdom ... the saved -- all relevant to your topic being discussed now

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.128.146

Re: Jesus will not fail

May 4 2012, 1:28 PM 

Let's keep Annie Mouse: not everyone can capture a real Angel of Blight. happy.gif

 
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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)
72.209.196.118

Jesus will not fail ...to prune to vine

May 3 2012, 9:40 PM 

Consider the teaching of John 15 that Jesus will remove the branches that are not producing fruit.

Consider the teaching in Revelation that churches need to repent and be zealous otherwise Jesus will come and take away that congregations "lampstand"

Consider the old testament record of the children of Israel how many times they were punished for straying from the law -word of God

I conclude that God continually tests and purges lax and nonproductive individuals and congregations. Hence the scripture indicates that not whom man approves but whom God approves will be saved. I suggest this is perfect harmony with the teaching that God has chosen the honest and faithful as heirs of salvation and his word will not return to him void, but accomplishing what it was sent to do.

I conclude that God nowhere promises to save unconditionally everyone even though they have a vocabulary and appearance that are "religious" . Individuals and congregations must be faithful as God defines what is faithful.

Comments welcome

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.128.146

Re: Jesus will not fail ...to prune to vine

May 4 2012, 1:24 PM 

Beginning with Genesis the "pattern" is that there is an ongoing "pruning" or removing rather than gathering everyone.

1Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you,
.....that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

2Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people,
.....even as there shall be false teachers among you,
.....who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,
.....even denying the Lord that bought them,
.....and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways;
.....by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2 Peter 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness,
.....as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time.
.....Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves
.....with their own deceivings [delusions] while they feast with you;

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Church Apostasy: Lack of Perspective or Lack of Faith

May 6 2012, 4:57 AM 

Brian,

I completely agree with you when Christ said to Peter: "... and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).

At the same time, we both know about what is revealed in this passage: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (I Tim. 4:1).

[#1] Correct me if I am misunderstanding you -- that while you believe [and I do too] that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it [the church]" that departure from the faith [described in the question: "Is the church headed for apostasy?"] will not occur? [Consider this as another question from me.]

So far, I agree with you when you mentioned Elijah's problem of discouragement and went on to draw some conclusion or identify his "lack of perspective." Your mention of the name of a biblical character (Elijah) leads me to believe that you are ALSO directing the same "observation" [of a lack of perspective or lack of faith] to certain individual Christians or to a body or group of believers. [Hint: Are you referring to the change agents? Are you referring to "conservative" members of the church?]

Let's be honest here -- we need more specifics from you. And you can easily do this by answering my specific questions which I have already stated; otherwise, I'll be "tempted" to ask further questions that might complicate matters worse. sad.gif

Question 1: Will apostasy not ever occur? (cf. [#1] above: my misunderstanding.

Question 2: Are the words "church" and "kingdom" synonymous or used interchangeably? (cf. 1st post)

I said earlier that there "are questions related to your initial message:" (cf. 2nd post)

Question 3: A "lack of perspective" on the part of whom or which group?

Question 4: A "lack of faith" on the part of whom or which group?

Question 5: An "organized effort" by whom or which group?

I hope you will consider answering these questions [these are numbered for reference purposes]. I'm only trying to understand why you've brought up a very good and challenging question, as well as your own thoughts as to how this is related to the church of Jesus Christ after its establishment.

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
66.230.101.36

Re: Church Apostasy: Lack of Perspective or Lack of Faith

May 7 2012, 4:01 PM 

Question 1: Apostasy occurs all the time, on an individual basis. However, there has never been a time since its founding that the church hasn't existed. Doctrines may come and go, worship modes may change, numbers may fluctuate; but the church is in no danger of extinction. That's what is implied by the question on the landing page; in other words, its placed there for no other reason than fear-mongering.

Question 2: Synonomous words are used inter-changably. That's what it means to be synonomous.

I'll answer the other three questions in a different post (pressed for time here).

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Church Apostasy: Lack of Perspective or Lack of Faith

May 8 2012, 4:04 AM 

Question 1: Thanks for your response to this question. I was concerned that we differed considerably regarding the matter of church apostasy, but it appears that it isn't the case. You did surprise me.

Your mention of "fear-mongering" leads me to believe that you may be directing "fear-mongering" to certain individual Christians or a group of Christians that represent one side of the aisle vs. another. Now, your position may manifest itself when you respond to Questions 3,4,5.

Question 2: I didn't ask for the definition of the word "synonymous." I was really asking if you believe that God's church or Christ's church or the Lord's church is also (or is referred to as) His kingdom. Yes? No? What do you really believe?

You see, I am not aware that the change agents refer to the church as the kingdom. Rather, they proudly proclaim that the church they claim to be members of is a [or is just another] denomination, rather than the kingdom of the Lord.

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
66.230.112.169

Re: Church Apostasy: Lack of Perspective or Lack of Faith

May 8 2012, 5:23 PM 

Question 2: I didn't ask for the definition of the word "synonymous." I was really asking if you believe that God's church or Christ's church or the Lord's church is also (or is referred to as) His kingdom. Yes? No? What do you really believe?

You see, I am not aware that the change agents refer to the church as the kingdom. Rather, they proudly proclaim that the church they claim to be members of is a [or is just another] denomination, rather than the kingdom of the Lord.


Tough question, but fair. I don't for a moment believe that the church of Christ has a lock on the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus said, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring , and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd"(John 10:16), which means that we have to allow for the possibility of Christians who are not members of the church of Christ.
At the same time, I would refrain from characterizing the church of Christ as a denomination, simply because it is an inflammatory word and alienates those within. Honesty compels us to admit, however, that from an outsider's viewpoint, it certainly looks like a denomination.

 
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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)
72.209.196.118

perspective or faith

May 8 2012, 10:15 PM 


This weekend in Bible study I was reminded of the arrogant question of Pilate in John 18 "what is truth". After questioning Jesus he had no concept of truth and was apparently scoffed at the idea. I feel the same way in talking to some in the church today that they have no concept of truth or that it is even possible.

In Psalm 27 I am reminded of the humility that we all should have before a holy and just creator of all things. The chapter says that our attitude is one of wanting to dwell in the house of the lord, behold his beauty and inquire of him. No room to toot our horn about our education and great works.

I am reminded of satan's works and strategy to break up the family and stir up social warfare based on gender and race. Sexual morality takes a back seat sometimes to whats current buzz in religious books and trendy TV shows. Yet satan seeks to destroy the strength of our nation by corrupt morals and push us in the direction of intolerant socialism. We need to focus on preaching the word at all times and not be pulled off task with the distractions of the post modern crowd with their false ideas about what people want in a church. "If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me."


 
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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)
72.209.196.118

John 10 and other churches

May 11 2012, 4:12 PM 

I would consider the book of Revelation and the judgement applied to the churches there - some of those churches had good traits and virtues but were to be rejected by Christ unless they repented. How does that narrative fit John 10:16 interpretation as many churches or christians outside the fellowship of the church of christ ?

Consider also the use of the word "must" (dei meaning necessary or binding)

- john 3 must be born again
- john 4 must worship him in spirit and truth
- Acts 4 name thru which we must be saved

How do these must statements fit the interpretation of John 10?

Comments welcome



 
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