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The Law of Silence: Two Views: The intoxicating New Wineskin heresy.

May 23 2012 at 10:34 PM
Ken Sublett  (Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
from IP address 166.248.128.197

God does not speak to the wise or Sophists: Scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites named by Christ in Ezekiel 33 as self-speakers, singers and instrument players. God IS silent because Jesus said that God HIDES from them. God sends them strong delusions and makes them foolish

http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.57.The.Law.odddf Silence.html

http://www.piney.com/CENI.Commands.Examples.Necessary.Inferences.html


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[linked image]

The Spirit OF [preposition] Christ defined the future Ekklesia or Church of Christ both inclusively and exclusively in the prophets. In Isaiah 57

http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.57.The.Law.of.Silence.html

In Isaiah 50 Christ defined the future MOCKING and SMITING of Messiah in a musical sense by the Levites

http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.50.Smitten.Plucked.html

In Isaiah 55 Christ outlawed spending ou money for the Free Water of the Word. Beginning in the wilderness the only ROLE is to read the word for its' comfort and doctrine. Equating the Word and Spirit is universal.

http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.55.Word.Spirit.html

In Isaiah 58 Christ outlawed speaking our own words or seeking our own pleasure.

http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.58.html

That doesn't prevent Rick Atchley from using buffoonery to mock the Law of Silence.
2. Since honoring the commands of Christ for the future reign of Christ defined inclusively and exclusively to MARK those who mock His word.
3. The Spirit OF Christ in Jeremiah 23 says that is blaspheming the Holy Spirit of Christ

http://www.piney.com/Rick.Atchley.Law.of.Silence.html







The New Wineskins Magazine builds on the foundation of Al Maxey, Edward Fudge and others. This was part of the Jubilee movement--from Nashville a city set on seven hills--when Rubel Shelly, Max Lucado, Rick Atchley and others thought the time was right to RESTRUCTURE all Churches of Christ into defacto Christian Churches or Baptist Churches.

http://www.piney.com/New.Winskins.Magazine.html

H. Leo Boles proving that the Christian Church invented the Law of Silence.

http://www.piney.com/Unity.Boles.html

Boles:
"Areas of silence," "liberty of opinion," and "the realm of expediency" are trite phrases used by leaders in the "Christian Church" and have been coined and put on a par with the teachings of the New Testament. It is just another way of saying that the opinions of men may guide the people of God, and that some of the people of God should submit to the opinions of men. There was unity with God's people so long as they respected the slogan, "Where the scriptures speak, we speak; and where the scriptures are silent, we are silent"; but when brethren began to claim the authority to speak where the New Testament is silent, and impose their opinions upon other brethren, division and separation were the inevitable results.

W.R. Walker, in Christian Standard, May 27, 1939, said: "There are two areas in our religious living in which the authority of Christ must be recognized. The first embraces all his teaching and that of his inspired followers, the `vocal area' ; but there is another area, the `area of silence."' He further said:

"I am persuaded that Christ has authority in the `areas of silence.'
Christ, by his silence, in every situation concerning which
he has left no direct teaching,
has bestowed on me this authority to act for myself."


Boles: Here are the two standards or rules recognized
.....by many in the "Christian Church,"
..........namely, that of "walking by faith,"
..........and that of "walking by opinion."

W.R. Walker calls the opinions of man in the "areas of silence" "the authority of Christ." This is tantamount to saying that man's opinions in the "areas of silence" are of equal force with the word of God.

I join issue with him on this point. There can be no unity in the "area of silence," as there can be no unity on opinions when each man claims the authority to do what is right in his own eyes. This would violate every scripture that God has given instructing his people to be "of the same mind, the same judgment of one accord."



    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.210.12.63 on Jul 31, 2013 9:15 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.128.197

Re: The Law of Silence: Two Views: The intoxicating New Wineskin heresy.

May 23 2012, 11:32 PM 

The Jesus Proposal: Rubel Shelly and John York

http://www.piney.com/Jesus.Proposal.Book.html

Rubel Shelly and John York in the Jesus Proposal: [p. 114] Our proposal to focus on Jesus means that Scripture is NO LONGER a set of proof-texts or a collection of facts or God's rulebook for human behavior. Scripture is the unfolding story of God acting both to create and to re-create. It is not an easy book to understand.

It was NEVER intended as a document to [p. 115] be INDIVIDUALLY read and interpreted--a sort-of correspondence course in salvation.

As we go to the cradle only in order to find the baby, so we go to the Scriptures ONLY to find Christ. Martin Luther. For thousands of years it could only be heard and interpreted in the context of community.

Yes, INDIVIDUALS could comment on Scripture, but those comments were always for the LARGER hearing of the community.Only after there was INDIVIDUAL access did there become an opportunity for an individual, isolated reading and interpretation that had no need or use for community.

Just as identity in Christ is always COMMUNITY identity,our reading of Scripture becomes a COMMUNITY READING as well.

While we still have access to reading as individuals,we stop asking, "What does this mean to me?"--as though there is such an isolated meaning. Instead we have a GROUP MENTALITY that asks, "What does this mean to US?"we lay aside INDIVIDUAL interpretations precisely because they are inevitably argumentative and divisive.

We GIVE UP the right of individual interpretation and take on the accountability of SHARED READING. This is not a pooling of collective ignorance. The Bible is full of stories from ancient and often quite alien cultural settings and belief systems, and we cannot ignore those differences. So we listen to the voices of scholarship just as we listen to the child who intuitively hears what God is saying in a particular story.


"Liberal literary criticism allows each community the right to re-write Scripture. The canon (not necessarily of biblical texts, but at least in the meanings of those texts) is not closed.

"It is difficult to know whether Fish intended this as a by-product, but the idea of authority resting in the interpretive community gave rise to narrative theology-- a theology which simply affirms a given community's right to come up with its own interpretation, or to "write" its own new biblical text. Narrative theology gave rise to various narrative communities-- hence, the arrival of liberation and feminist theologies.

"Narrative theology does not recognize any absolute truth or meaning in a text. Because Buber is the founder, most narrative theology, especially in Jewish circles, is related to Auschwitz."

"And, what is the purpose of reading texts, for narrative theologians? Why, of course, to affirm the self. Hazards in the Mainline.

 
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Anonymous
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209.193.57.97

Re: The Law of Silence: Two Views: The intoxicating New Wineskin heresy.

May 24 2012, 1:47 AM 

....and he's off on another tangent. Yet the question remains, "When did God ever reveal truth by saying absolutely nothing?" Silence does not prohibit nor permit. Specificity permits or prohibits.

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Scripture Is Silent: "Worship Mary, 'Mother of God'"

May 24 2012, 2:33 AM 

When?

It's when God directed His followers to do "as it is spoken":

  • "God spake unto Noah...."
  • "God spake unto Moses...."
  • "Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you..." (Jer. 10:1)
  • "Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel..." (Jer. 28:2)
  • "... as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh..." (Ezek. 10:5)
  • "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God..." (John 3:34)
It's when God directed His followers to do "as it is written":
  • "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (I Pet. 1:16)
  • "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." (Rom. 14:11)
  • "... for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (Rom. 12:19)
  • "... as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace...." (Rom. 10:15)
  • "... as it is written, The just shall live by faith." (Rom. 1:17)
  • "Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer..." (Luke 24:46)
  • Teach and admonish one another in ... songs -- that is in Scripture
  • The conversion process or pattern is written in Scripture
  • The pattern for observance of the Lord's Supper is written in Scripture
  • The pattern for church leadership is written in Scripture

When God has said "absolutely nothing" about something, then His followers must respect that.

The argument that God actually thought about directing His followers to use musical devices and other accessories in the assembly of saints, but He just failed or forgot to put it in writing ...

... is fallacious and ludicrous.

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
209.193.57.97

Re: Scripture Is Silent: "Worship Mary, 'Mother of God'"

May 24 2012, 2:58 AM 

The argument that God actually thought about directing His followers to use musical devices and other accessories in the assembly of saints, but He just failed or forgot to put it in writing ...

... is fallacious and ludicrous.


You're absolutely right. I don't know anyone who has made that argument; I certainly never have.I don't even know why you bring it up.
When God prohibits something, He is always very specific about it. Jesus didn't have to forbid the practice of witchcraft and sorcery because God had already spoken to it (see Leviticus 19:26).

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Scripture Is Silent: "Worship Mary, 'Mother of God'"

May 24 2012, 3:25 AM 

Here are my observations from your response:

-- That you didn't understand the title of my post about worship of Mary
-- That you agree with the Roman Catholics about praying to Mary
-- That you agree with several RCC heresies because God did not say "not to"
-- That you agree that God had intended to direct His followers to use the trumpet, the drums ...
-- ... but that God had a memory lapse -- forgot to put it in writing

God deserves better respect than that from you -- simply refrain from making up something not mentioned in Scripture ... and call it God's directive.

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
209.193.57.97

Re: Scripture Is Silent: "Worship Mary, 'Mother of God'"

May 24 2012, 5:34 AM 

Donnie, you are reading your own prejudices into my responses. Give me a break, man, you're not that stupid. Grow up.

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
209.193.57.97

Re: Scripture Is Silent: "Worship Mary, 'Mother of God'"

May 24 2012, 5:36 AM 

Donnie, you are reading your own prejudices into my responses. Give me a break, man, you're not that stupid. Grow up. If you are going to dialogue with me, be honest at least.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Worship: Mary, "God's Mother" Parallels Instrumental Music

May 24 2012, 8:42 PM 

Brian,

So, refute my "own prejudices."

Let me illustrate and simplify my understanding of YOUR LOGIC that the law of silence is not prohibitive:

  1. Scripture does not specify this prohibition: "Thou shalt not worship Mary, 'Mother of God.'"
  2. You argue that silence of Scripture is not prohibitive.
  3. You argue that silence of Scripture does not prohibit instrumental music
  4. It follows your logic that Scripture does not prohibit both "Mary" and "IM"
  5. It further follows your logic that if it's OK to worship with musical devices...
  6. It further follows your logic also that it's OK to worship Mary, "Mother of God."

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.12.129

Re: Worship: Mary, "God's Mother" Parallels Instrumental Music

May 24 2012, 9:34 PM 

It seems that many people today prefer a type of "pseudo-Christianity" based on what God/Jesus DOESN'T say rather than on what He EXPLICITLY SAYS. People who are basically dissatisfied with New Testament Christianity are all too eager to take explicit doctrines addressed in the New Testament and add anything and everything to them, based on the fallacious notion of "God didn't say not to."

There is nothing in the New Testament that states God's silence is permissive or not prohibitive. That is man's rash and hasty assumption. There is nothing in the New Testament that states "God didn't say not to." That is man's rash and hasty assumption.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15 KJV). Notice that Jesus DOES NOT SAY, "If ye love me, ye may do anything that I have not forbidden."

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21 KJV). Notice that Jesus DOES NOT SAY, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth all that the will of my Father which is in heaven has not forbidden."

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46). Notice that Jesus DOES NOT SAY, "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I have not forbidden?"

Dissatisfaction and desperation drive many "Christians" to play around with and pollute the New Testament to satisfy their own personal desires.


 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
66.230.80.11

Re: Worship: Mary, "God's Mother" Parallels Instrumental Music

May 24 2012, 10:44 PM 

Donnie Cruz (Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
Posted May 24, 2012 8:42 PM

Brian,

So, refute my "own prejudices."

Let me illustrate and simplify my understanding of YOUR LOGIC that the law of silence is not prohibitive:

Scripture does not specify this prohibition: "Thou shalt not worship Mary, 'Mother of God.'"

You argue that silence of Scripture is not prohibitive.

You argue that silence of Scripture does not prohibit instrumental music

It follows your logic that Scripture does not prohibit both "Mary" and "IM"

It further follows your logic that if it's OK to worship with musical devices...

It further follows your logic also that it's OK to worship Mary, "Mother of God."


It does not follow. God specified the following -

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them" - Exodus 20:3 -5a

God specified it a second time -
"Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them" - Deuteronomy 5:7-9a

God specified it a third time -
"Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you" - Deuteronomy 6:14

God was very specific and, in order to be specific, God had to speak to it. God was not silent. Personally, I never have believed Marian theology, I've never promoted it or advocated it and I don't appreciate your mis-characterization. Your argument is invalid. QED.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Worship: Mary, "God's Mother" Parallels Instrumental Music

May 25 2012, 12:01 AM 

Brian,

Great passages that you quoted!!!

But those great passages do not conform to your own rule of specificity (which in itself is not a bad rule). How quickly have you forgotten that Brian and other change agents are looking for the SPECIFIC PROHIBITION in music "thou shalt not play musical instruments in the assembly"?

For the same reason, Brian, are we expecting you be CONSISTENT. Specifically where does it say, "Thou shalt not worship the Virgin Mary, 'Mother of God'"?

(1) You will never find a "thou shalt not" in favor of the "Virgin Mary."

(2) You will never find a "thou shalt not" in favor of the inanimate and lifeless ... controversial, divisive and unnecessary musical devices.

But we should know better:

(1) God's followers obey Him by worshiping Him, but not other gods;

(2) God's followers obey Him by being richly indwelt by the word of Christ, by teaching and admonishing one another in songs.

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly."

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
66.230.80.11

Re: Worship: Mary, "God's Mother" Parallels Instrumental Music

May 25 2012, 12:12 AM 

Donnie Cruz (Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
Posted May 25, 2012 12:01 AM

Brian,

Great passages that you quoted!!!

But those great passages do not conform to your own rule of specificity (which in itself is not a bad rule). How quickly have you forgotten that Brian and other change agents are looking for the SPECIFIC PROHIBITION in music "thou shalt not play musical instruments in the assembly"?

For the same reason, Brian, are we expecting you be CONSISTENT. Specifically where does it say, "Thou shalt not worship the Virgin Mary, 'Mother of God'"?

(1) You will never find a "thou shalt not" in favor of the "Virgin Mary."

(2) You will never find a "thou shalt not" in favor of the inanimate and lifeless ... controversial, divisive and unnecessary musical devices.

But we should know better:

(1) God's followers obey Him by worshiping Him, but not other gods;

(2) God's followers obey Him by being richly indwelt by the word of Christ, by teaching and admonishing one another in songs.

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly."


You mean to say that "anything in the earth" doesn't include young Jewish maidens named Mary? Your argument is invalid.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Worship: Mary, "God's Mother" Parallels Instrumental Music

May 25 2012, 12:27 AM 

You do not fool me -- you know exactly my specific reference to "the Virgin Mary, 'Mother of God.'"

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
66.230.80.11

Re: Worship: Mary, "God's Mother" Parallels Instrumental Music

May 25 2012, 3:01 AM 

Donnie Cruz (Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
Posted May 25, 2012 12:27 AM

You do not fool me -- you know exactly my specific reference to "the Virgin Mary, 'Mother of God.'"


Wouldn't know, man, that's a term found in Catholic theology. I'm not Catholic. God told the children of Israel not to worship anything other than Him. The point is, He spoke specifically to this very thing. The Almighty hasn't said a word either way about instrumental music.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.65.95

Re: Worship: Mary, "God's Mother" Parallels Instrumental Music

May 25 2012, 12:19 PM 

You lie TO God and ABOUT God. That's why He has not given you eyes to see or ears to hear.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.8.115

Re: Worship: Mary, "God's Mother" Parallels Instrumental Music

May 25 2012, 1:29 PM 

Those advocating instrumental music may say, "Yeah, yeah, the Almighty says to sing and make melody in our hearts, BUT, He hasn't said a word either way about instrumental music."

The Almighty through Paul not only addresses music, but He goes even further and specifies singing, which is vocal music (Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16). Why did God take the trouble to specify vocal music and stop there? Did a big problem on the other side of the planet divert His attention away and He "forgot" to return and tell Paul to include instrumental music? The mindset of some would wander in that direction to "justify" ADDING instrumental music. The majority of the pro-IM folks just go with something like, "God didn't say not to," a fallacious premise that appears nowhere in the New Testament.

The pro-IM folks seem to prefer a type of "Christianity" that is based on what the Almighty does NOT say, rather than be content to follow His teachings AS WRITTEN in the New Testament.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.65.95

Re: Worship: Mary, "God's Mother" Parallels Instrumental Music

May 25 2012, 1:58 PM 

I don't think anything mmakes me shudder more than people who gleefully accuse the Spirit of Christ--speaking for the eternal God of the universe Who made language a human skill--of being more ignorant than a rock.

Paul compared speaking or singing in tongues to that of a lifeless musical instrument. He said that our weapons (instruments) are not CARNAL: that would blaspheme God Who made us His instrument. He said that we do not WRESTLE (include plucking instruments in competing} the evil principalities and powers who have their OWN MINISTERS. What we teach is intended to EDUCATE and no professor would let his lecture be accompanied by singy-clappy boylings.

If God had wanted to even marginally include "machines for doing hard work" to assist Him, Paul would have said:

Speaking to yourself in "that which is written"
Singing and playing a harp in your hands.

There would have been at least one of the churches which had an instrumentalists playing around ANY collection with or without Paul's permission.

You really have to conclude, with John in Revelation 18, that these are the end time sorcerers who HAD deceived the whole world. If that means what I think it means you can never expect them to do anything but curse with all of Maxey's huge collectin of RACA words. That's ok, Jesus said that word teachers would be, like Him, despised and rejected by almost all of the WORLD (form whom He would not pray) and the WISE (sophists: speakers, singers, players, actors) to who God HIDES HIMSELF. Isn't that a shattering thing to discover: it's well beyond science fiction.

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
66.230.80.85

Re: Worship: Mary, "God's Mother" Parallels Instrumental Music

May 26 2012, 4:42 AM 

Ken Sublett (Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
Posted May 25, 2012 12:19 PM

You lie TO God and ABOUT God. That's why He has not given you eyes to see or ears to hear.


Oh, I have eyes to see and ears to hear, which why I don't mind pointing out your lies about God while you presume to speak for Him. Don't you realize you are going to have to give an account of all the damage you have done by slandering and libelling your brethren? I pity you, man, God is going to go hard on you.
"So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." - Romans 14:12

 
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B
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74.179.245.70

Re: The Law of Silence: Two Views: The intoxicating New Wineskin heresy.

May 26 2012, 9:31 AM 

The change agents reject the concept of "Law of Silence," because that expression is not found in Scripture. Yet its PRINCIPLE is definitely found in the Old and New Testaments alike when we are told not to add to or take from God's Word:

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you" (Deut. 4:2 KJV).

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book" (Rev. 22:18-19 KJV).

When God commands anything, we are not free to expand upon or edit His commands according to what pleases us. That's what the two passages above mean. God doesn't have to say, "Worship me with singing but not with mechanical instruments." His explicit directive that we worship Him with singing is sufficient alone. To add instruments when God hasn't commanded them in the New Testament is to pollute God's directive.

On the other hand, the change agents' excuse to do as they please is, "God didn't say not to do thus and so." That statement is not only absent from the Old and New Testaments, there is no principle even remotely akin to it. The reason is that "God didn't say not to do thus and so" is a fabrication of those who are dissatisfied with following God's Word AS WRITTEN in the New Testament.

 
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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

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