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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

"Thou Shalt Not" and "ONLY" Are Separate Arguments

May 30 2012, 11:32 PM 


I agree -- that's what it means to me exactly.

But the LOGIC of the change agent does not follow what you and I believe that passage means.

You and I know better.

But the logic of the change agent does not know any better as it relies on: the "thou shalt not" or "it doesn't say 'NOT TO'"; therefore, it is permitted or authorized.

Let me explain one more time the LOGIC of the change agent:

1. Scripture does not say "NOT TO" use instrumental music, change agents ARGUE;
2. Therefore, instrumental music is allowed -- based on the change agents' LOGIC.

1. Scripture does not say "NOT TO" worship the Virgin Mary, change agents ARGUE;
2. Therefore, worship of the Virgin Mary is permitted -- based on the change agents' LOGIC.

Again, the "NOT TO" argument differs from the "ONLY" argument. Do you still not see what I am saying?

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(no login)

Re: "Thou Shalt Not" and "ONLY" Are Separate Arguments

May 31 2012, 12:40 AM 

That's not anyone's logic. That's your habitual twisting of their words to suit your own twisted belief system. How about an actual example?

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: "Thou Shalt Not" and "ONLY" Are Separate Arguments

May 31 2012, 5:27 AM 


Let's be a little more alert, OK?

How many times have you read or heard an instrumental music lover argue: Where in Scripture do you find a "thou shalt not" play musical instruments in the assembly?

The question cannot be anymore specific than that.

And so the music lover's LOGIC is this: "If God does not say 'NOT TO,' He permits us 'TO DO SO.'"

But that's human logic!!!! Faulty!!!

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(no login)

Re: "Thou Shalt Not" and "ONLY" Are Separate Arguments

June 1 2012, 4:44 AM 

And so the music lover's LOGIC is this: "If God does not say 'NOT TO,' He permits us 'TO DO SO.'"

Blatant mis-representation. Silence does not imply permission or prohibition. Specificity defines what is prohibited or permitted. God is not the author of confusion; He lets us know when something is displeasing to Him. He has said nothing about instrumental music.

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(no login)

Re: "Thou Shalt Not" and "ONLY" Are Separate Arguments

June 2 2012, 3:29 PM 

"Specificity defines what is prohibited or permitted." This obviously man-contrived statement ASSUMES that God ALWAYS specifies what is permitted and ALWAYS specifies what is prohibited. As we know, God DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK THAT WAY.

For example, God specifies what is permitted when He says, "Sing and make melody in your hearts." God specifies vocal music.

For example, God specifies what is not permitted when He says, "Thou shalt not kill." God forbids killing.

But God also issues general prohibitions through His neither-add-to-nor-take-from (NATNTF) command, which the change agents conveniently forget about or dismiss. With the NATNTF command, God need not specify everything that is prohibited within a command. Once He specifies what is permitted, then everything else that would impact upon that command is excluded. Of course, some folks are of the "opinion" that all of the Bible is exempt from God's NATNTF command except Deut. 4:2 and Rev. 22:18-19. Such people would demand that God state in EVERY book of the Bible that we may neither add to nor take from His commands. If such asinine reasoning were not so spiritually heinous, it would be laughable.

Therefore, since God specifies vocal music and stops there, then by the NATNTF command, all other forms of music, such as instrumental music, are EXCLUDED. We expect the change agents to continue their soap-box campaign of pushing instrumental music by saying, "We may have anything that God does not say is displeasing to Him" (AKA "God didn't say not to"). Man will do ANYTHING to justify his own selfish pleasures.

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(no login)

Re: The Law of Silence: Two Views: The intoxicating New Wineskin heresy.

May 31 2012, 9:51 AM 

Mr. Cruz, I am a man of Scripture and of God's Word. When you say "Again, the "NOT TO" argument differs from the "ONLY" argument. Do you still not see what I am saying?" I see that you are trying to teach someone by an argumentative stance only. Those two do NOT differ. Logically speaking, they simply do not differ. Serve him only means NOT TO serve anyone else....period! I know what you are saying spiritually within your heart but the Word of God doesn't follow what you want to and need to say. Hopefully I will not be the target of your next slander, but you have to have the backing of God's Word to follow what you believe and want to teach others. Just because you and many thousands others believe this, it simply will never be true.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: The Law of Silence: Two Views: The intoxicating New Wineskin heresy.

June 1 2012, 12:45 AM 


Donnie believes God's Word that "Him ONLY thou shalt serve."

Anon also believes God's Word that "Him ONLY thou shalt serve."

There's no problem there.

The PROBLEM is with the CHANGE AGENT'S ASSERTION: THAT since Scripture does NOT say "NOT TO" or "THOU SHALT NOT" use musical devices in the assembly, it means that God is giving PERMISSION to use them

Evidently, we are NOT communicating. I agree with you wholeheartedly that we serve ONLY Him--even though the Scripture directed that command to Satan. happy.gif Are we all "little devils"? LOL!!!

I gather that you're pursuing the "ONLY" argument so much because by serving HIM only [as I said: we're in agreement there], you're able to deviate from the issue of whether or not the use of mechanical music in the assembly is authorized. Do you believe that God authorizes the use of mechanical music in the assembly? Yes? No? It's the moment of truth. If you're in agreement with the music lover's argument, there's nothing to hide.

The (1) "ONLY" and (2) "doesn't say 'NOT TO'" are totally different forms or means of argumentation. The change agent would love using the "only" argument when it's convenient. The change agent also loves the "where does it say 'not to' in Scripture.

Since you continue to make the "only" argument an issue when it is NOT AN ISSUE to both of us [and I see that you will never understand my explanation], I am going to list other examples where the "doesn't say NOT TO" argument is fallacious:

WHERE DOES it say in Scripture:

___ NOT TO use instrumental music in the assembly?
___ NOT TO worship the Virgin Mary, God's Mother?
___ NOT TO direct prayers to Mary?
___ NOT TO venerate angels and dead saints?
___ NOT TO discontinue the papal reign?
___ NOT TO kiss the Pope's feet?
___ NOT TO canonize dead saints?
___ NOT TO let the priests marry?
___ NOT TO sell indulgences for the forgiveness of sins?
___ NOT TO confess sins to the priest?
___ NOT TO believe that the Pope is infallible?

I don't think that the change agents would want to do any of the heresies and forms of idolatry; but they make ONE EXCEPTION -- the use of musical inventions in the assembly.

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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)

Re: The Law of Silence: Two Views: The intoxicating New Wineskin heresy.

June 1 2012, 7:50 PM 

Consider the words of the Psalm 19 after a statement of the grand design and beauty of the heavens and the creator of the way of salvation - let the words of my mouth be acceptable...and the meditation of the mind - this is hardly the attitude of the proud and educated man or women of today. This is at the root of many of the issues of today. Mankind wants recognition and glory and approval of men. This attitude leads to all kinds of strife and false wisdom.

Consider also the words of Psalm 25 that the Lord teaches the humble his way. Its the way God works but not the way man works.

Consider also Matt 18 which says you cannot get into the kingdom of heaven unless you become as little children and being humble as a child is the greatest in the kingdom.

Its the attitude of the change agents that is wrong and which leads them to false sources of wisdom. Following this line of reasoning we can see the error of their way. Because the pride and self importance of change agents are not always stated in explicit terms many are fooled.

In Romans 12 we are told that our reasonable service to God is to offer ourselves as a living sacrifice. Now that is our reasonable service. We are told nothing about tooting our own horn or making a name for ourselves. Be famous for being a power broker in the church of Christ? Hogwash! We are to serve the Lord not covet the pride of life!

Comments Welcome

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Nothing About ... Making a Name for Ourselves

June 1 2012, 9:43 PM 

I've been thinking about that subject since I first heard of the change agents and the Change Movement in operation in the brotherhood.

The change agents are busy owning while at the same time ridiculing their Restoration heritage. So, they are continually critiquing and attempting to rewrite the Restoration Movement history.

The change agents are busy ridiculing the church they still claim to be members of [that's "heritage"] and contradicting and modifying the church's New Testament-based beliefs and teachings in favor of denominational doctrines as in: "believe and be saved NOW; be baptized later." And to them, the church of Christ needs restructuring so badly.

In short, the change agent in reality is making a name for himself. Change agents are very familiar with the names of their forefathers -- Thomas Campbell, Alexander Campbell, J.D. Tant, David Lipscomb, B.W. Stone, T.B. Larimore, James O'Kelly, Walter Scott, Elias Smith, et al.

Great men of the Restoration Movement!!!

And here's the new wave: Max Lucado, Al Maxey, Jeff Walling, Rick Atchley, Jay Guin, Rubel Shelly, et al.

Just compare the great men of the Restoration Movement versus the shameless men of the Change Movement!!!

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Martin Luther and EVERYONE knew the pattern

June 2 2012, 12:25 PM 

Martin Luther the Office of Preaching

4. So much for the call into the office. But Christ is not speaking of that here; for something more is required, namely,
that no rival or supplementary doctrine be introduced,
nor another word be taught than Christ has taught.

Christ says in Mt. 23:2-4: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat: all things therefore whatsoever they bid you, these do and observe: but do not ye after their works; for they say and do not. Yea, they bind heavy burdens too grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger."

Although these of whom Christ here speaks were regularly appointed, yet they were thieves and murderers; for they taught variations from Christ's teaching.

Christ reproves them in another place, in Matthew 15:3, where he holds up before them their traditions and tells them how, through their own inventions, they have transgressed the commandments of God, yea, totally abolished them.

We have also many prophets who were regularly appointed and still were misled, like Balaam, of whom we read in Num. 22; also Nathan, described in 2 Sam 7:3. Similarly many bishops have erred. PAGE 376

5. Here Christ says: He who would enter by the door must be ready to speak the Word concerning Christ and his word must center in Christ.

Let it be called "coming" when one preaches aright;

the approaching is spiritual, and through the Word--upon the ears of his hearers,
he preacher comes at last into the sheepfold--the heart of believers.

Christ says that the shepherd must enter by the door;
that is, preach nothing but Christ, for Christ is the door into the sheepfold.

6. But where there are intruders, who make their own door, their own hole to crawl through, their own addition different from that which Christ taught, they are thieves. Of these Paul says to the Romans (16:17-18):

"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them that are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling, contrary to the doctrine which ye learned: and turn away from them.

For they that are such serve not our Lord Christ, but their own belly; and by their smooth and fair speech they beguile the hearts of the innocent."

Paul does not speak of opposing or antagonistic doctrines, but of those placed beside the true doctrine; they are additions, making divisions.

Paul calls it a rival doctrine, an addition, an occasion of stumbling, an offense and a byway, when one establishes the conscience upon his own goodness or deeds.

7. Now, the Gospel is sensitive, complete and pre-eminent: it must be intolerant of additions and rival teachings.

The doctrine of earning entrance into heaven by virtue of fastings, prayers and penance is a branch road, which the Gospel will not tolerate.

But our Church authorities endorse these things, hence they are thieves and murderers; for they do violence to our consciences, which is slaying and destroying the sheep.

How is this accomplished? If only I am directed into a branch or parallel road, then my soul is turned from God upon that road, where I must perish. Thus this road is the cause of my death. The conscience and heart of man must be founded upon one single Word or they will come to grief. "All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field" (Is 40:6).

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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