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Review of Concerned Members

May 24 2012 at 1:24 AM
Brian Cade  (no login)
from IP address 99.177.249.211

Copied/Transferred from the Richland Hills Church of Christ Forum
May 22 2012 at 8:32 PM
Anonymous
from IP address 209.193.57.120


=====================================

Concerned Members is a gathering place for complainers who feel that changes in their favorite version of "church" are tantamount to apostasy. Unfortunately, the seemingly primary characters here do nothing to mentor them in the faith, but rather fuel and encourage continued complaining, spreading discord, and embarrassing the faith.

It is a rather childish place and makes the operators (to my mind) seem considerably immature and well, stupid. There is little original thought demonstrated and non sequiturs abound. Even those who have published a book or two seemingly suffer from overly narrow thinking and defensiveness.

It really is a waste of time.

 
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AuthorReply
Anonymous
(no login)
99.177.249.211

Re: Review of Concerned Members

May 24 2012, 1:49 AM 

Copied/Transferred from the Richland Hills Church of Christ Forum
May 22 2012, 11:52 PM
Donnie Cruz
donniecruz@msn.com
[Previously bulleted items are now ordered for references purposes.]
=====================================


Brian,

ConcernedMembers came into existence when the transformation of some of the mega churches of Christ was in progress.

The former Oak Hills Church of Christ [thanks to the leadership of its elders and "Reverend Pastor" Max Lucado], in completely transforming into a Community Church, found it necessary to drop the name "of Christ."

Richland Hills Church of Christ, not long after, implemented instrumental music in the assembly; it too had to change its name.

Madison Church of Christ, "almost" [methinks] became a Community Church. Perhaps, it too might eventually incorporate instrumental music into one of its assemblies [let's hope not].

And who are the real complainers? Not just that -- but they who distract, destroy, divide, acquire once-peaceful congregations?

  1. The change agents believe that the church of Christ Jesus is a denomination;
  2. The change agents believe that Christ's church should engage in instrumental music;
  3. The change agents believe in open fellowship with other religious bodies;
  4. The change agents teach that women should have a leading role in the church;
  5. The change agents downplay the office of the deacon -- that women can serve as deaconesses;
  6. The change agents teach that the church is not the kingdom;
  7. The change agents teach that the New Testament church needs to be restructured;
  8. The change agents teach that New Testament Christianity is irrelevant;
  9. The change agents teach that silence of the Scripture is not prohibitive;
  10. The change agents teach that salvation is by faith and baptism is not essential for the forgiveness of sins;
  11. The change agents are greatly enamored by radical youth workshops;
  12. The change agents teach that teaching obedience and commandments is legalism;
  13. The change agents teach that using deductions based on Scripture cannot establish truth;
  14. The change agents teach that restoration of the church is not finished;
  15. The change agents teach the advocacy of the Holy Spirit empowering us in sensational ways apart from the Word of God;
  16. The change agents teach that worship is to be changed to be more emotional in the Pentecostal denominational style;
  17. The change agents are gashing the church and finding little good about it and in contrast being complimentary of other religious groups;
  18. The change agents teach that pattern theology is an abomination;
  19. ... ... ... ...
And who are the complainers?

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
99.177.249.211

Re: Review of Concerned Members

May 24 2012, 2:14 AM 

Submitted: CM's Richland Hills Church of Christ Forum
By: Brian Cade (Anonymous)
Email: arturo@mosquitonet.com
Date: May 23 2012, 5:07 PM
From: 66.230.83.143
[Edited items as numbered for reference purposes.]


Oh, boy, talk about grist for the mill;
1. The change agents believe that the church of Christ Jesus is a denomination;
It certainly looks like one from the outside, especially when you throw in the arrogant belief that only those who are in the "Church of Christ" are saved.It's foolish to believe that our little movement has a lock on God's truth. I can tell you for certain we don't.

2. The change agents believe that Christ's church should engage in instrumental music;
The men you speak against, your brethren, have examined the scriptures and find no prohibition against instrumental music. You won't either, if you examine the scriptures for yourself in a Berean spirit.

3. The change agents believe in open fellowship with other religious bodies;
Who, the Buddhists? The Hindus? The Muslims? OR are your brethren advocating fellowship with other Christians who might belong to another faith-heritage? What's wrong with that?

4. The change agents teach that women should have a leading role in the church;
Evidence?

5. The change agents downplay the office of the deacon -- that women can serve as deaconesses;
The word "deacon" comes from the Greek word for servant. Whether you want to admit it or not, thousands of our sisters are already serving the church in some informal capacity.Paul commended at least one such that we know of, Phoebe.

6. The change agents teach that the church is not the kingdom;
If by "church" you mean the little group that remains from the Stone-Campbell movement that calls itself the "Church of Christ" then your brethren are absolutely correct.

7. The change agents teach that the New Testament church needs to be restructured;
If by "restructure", you mean moving away from the view that elders are an executive board of directors and that deacons are "elders in training"-level junior executives, then your brethren are correct. "Deacon" is not a formal office.
8. The change agents teach that New Testament Christianity is irrelevant; False. You've been lied to.Worse, your brethren have been slandered and libelled.

9. The change agents teach that silence of the Scripture is not prohibitive;Silence neither permits nor prohibits. What permits or prohibits is God's specificity on a given matter.When did God ever reveal truth to His people by saying absolutely nothing at all? That said, scripture is very clear that if you are not sure about something, don't perform that action if it will violate your conscience.

10. The change agents teach that salvation is by faith and baptism is not essential for the forgiveness of sins;
Your brethren teach that salvation is by faith and that baptism is the response. Let me explain it this way:if, out of the goodness of my heart, I go down to the bank and open an account for Donnie Cruz with a balance of a million dollars, you still have to go into the bank and put your name on the signature card for that account. Without your signature, you can't accept or access my gift to you. I didn't have to set up that account for you; I did it because I wanted to and you needed the money.

11. The change agents are greatly enamored by radical youth workshops;
Evidence?

12. The change agents teach that teaching obedience and commandments is legalism;
13. The change agents teach that using deductions based on Scripture cannot establish truth;

These two belong under the same heading. Your brethren teach that the CENI hermeneutic, along with the twin laws of silence and expediency, if taken to their conclusion, lead to division and strife among brethren and need to be re-examined, if not discarded. Are you afraid to think for yourself?

14. The change agents teach that restoration of the church is not finished;
False. The church never needed restoring in the first place. It has been with us since its founding. The idea that the church needs "restoring" is a man-made conceit

15. The change agents teach the advocacy of the Holy Spirit empowering us in sensational ways apart from the Word of God;
Please be more specific.

16. The change agents teach that worship is to be changed to be more emotional in the Pentecostal denominational style;
There is nothing wrong with an uplifting worship service. Nehemiah 8:10 says "The joy of the Lord is our strength." At the same time, we need to be aware that some practices (lifting holy hands, clapping, singing during communion,etc) can cause a large amount of cognitive dissonance to people whose idea of "joy" includes a dry rendition of "The Old Rugged Cross".

17. The change agents are gashing the church and finding little good about it and in contrast being complimentary of other religious groups;
There is very little good about a group whose only purpose in coming together is to find fault in others. On the other hand, did you ever once stop to think that you might have something to learn from people whose lives show evidence of the fruit of the Holy Spirit, regardless of their Christian faith-
heritage?

18. The change agents teach that pattern theology is an abomination;
Pattern theology teaches that a man can earn salvation by keeping to a scripted code of conduct and action, so that come the day of judgment, God has no choice but to allow you into heaven.In other words, pattern theology is a special case of works theology, which spits in the face of clear scriptural teaching to the contrary."For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8,9

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Review of Concerned Members

May 24 2012, 4:11 AM 

The original intent of the list was to show the differences between: (1) the acquired beliefs of the change agents, mainly from their denominational neighbors, and (2) the New Testament-based beliefs and teachings of their "heritage," the Restoration Movement.

You were very predictable in all of your arguments against the "heritage," actually against the teachings found in the New Testament. You've evidently and clearly delineated your personal beliefs and those of your fellow change agents from those of us who would dare not alter God's truth with man's "wonderful" and "pleasant" ideas and opinions. I guess it's understood that your preferred alignment is with the denominational churches rather than with those brethren from whom you've apostatized. Overall, it's better that way anyway, although regrettably and unfortunately, the change agents couldn't afford to start their own denomination(S) from SCRATCH.

Brian, you've learned a lot from those who seek to corrupt, divide, pervert, confuse and acquire congregations and to transform them into Community Churches.

It's been apparent all along that the change agents detest being tested and proved by certain principles that demand: "PROVE IT WITH SCRIPTURE."

C.E.N.I. requires proof from Scripture -- it excludes man's OPINION.

The "Law of Silence" requires proof from Scripture -- it excludes man's OPINION.


I do not have the time right now to discuss all the items that define and identify the change agents operating in the brotherhood. You just quoted a couple of passages: (1) that deals with "programmed" joy but perhaps you were too ashamed to mention "dancing"; and (2) your mishandling of the subject of God's grace in conjunction with the Christian's responsibility to strive to do God's will and remain faithful in order to receive the reward of life everlasting.

Well, just a sample of the discussion to come. The change agents' ideas and opinions will be rebutted.

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
209.193.57.97

Re: Review of Concerned Members

May 24 2012, 5:27 AM 

You were very predictable in all of your arguments against the "heritage," actually against the teachings found in the New Testament

Please expand on this.

You've evidently and clearly delineated your personal beliefs and those of your fellow change agents from those of us who would dare not alter God's truth with man's "wonderful" and "pleasant" ideas and opinions.

I dare to think for myself and come to my own conclusions. Please tell me where you think I am wrong.

I guess it's understood that your preferred alignment is with the denominational churches rather than with those brethren from whom you've apostatized.

Tell me where I have apostasized and prove it from scripture.

It's been apparent all along that the change agents detest being tested and proved by certain principles that demand: "PROVE IT WITH SCRIPTURE."

Actually, your brethren invite debate if you can back it with scripture. What I nor any of the men whom you term "change agents" will accept are a priori pronouncements of judgment from you or anyone who does not like having their version of "church" challenged.

C.E.N.I. requires proof from Scripture -- it excludes man's OPINION.

The "Law of Silence" requires proof from Scripture -- it excludes man's OPINION.


The "law of silence" is a phrase which is never found in scripture. Same goes for Command, Example, Necessary Inference. By what reasoning do you determine that these are the only proper way to interpret scripture? By what reasoning is it proper to use proof-texting and ad hominum to refute an honest difference of opinion?



 
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Jeremiah
(no login)
143.166.226.57

Re: Review of Concerned Members

May 24 2012, 2:22 PM 

The change agents believe that the church of Christ Jesus is a denomination.

Denomination literally means a religious group, usually including many local churches. Is the coc a religious group including many local churches? Yep.

The change agents believe that Christ's church should engage in instrumental music;

Not that they should but that they certainly are at liberty to do so if they choose.

The change agents believe in open fellowship with other religious bodies;

One of the great quotes that came out of the restoration movement was we are Christians only, but not the only Christians. What ever happened to that? Answer: Daniel Sommer and others like him.

The change agents teach that the church is not the kingdom;

This is a new one to me. Ive never read where the change agents teach this, but some of them may very well do so. Please provide evidence to support this claim that I can consider.

The change agents teach that New Testament Christianity is irrelevant;

No they dont. They teach that there is a difference between NT Christianity really is and what many in the coc believe it is, but nowhere do any of them say NT Christianity is irrelevant. By saying such you are clearly seeking to prejudice rather than inform your readers.

The change agents teach that silence of the Scripture is not prohibitive;

If the silence of scripture is prohibitive, then why was it ok for the Jews in Jesus time to include wine in the Passover meal? The scriptures were silent on such. One of many issues with the law of silence. Silence neither permits nor prohibits. Where there is silence we must think and make sound judgments based on Biblical principles.

The change agents teach that pattern theology is an abomination;
God told Moses to make all things according to the pattern, and gave very clear and explicit instructions for how services were to be conducted in the OT. If the NT were a pattern for how we are to worship (which it nowhere claims to be) wouldnt we find the same rather than bits and pieces of it sprinkled across a bunch of letters leaving us to put together and figure out? If the NT is such a pattern it is a very elusive one.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.12.129

Re: Review of Concerned Members

May 24 2012, 9:39 AM 

If Brian thinks that Concerned Members is a "waste of time," then why does he continue to post here?

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.12.129

Re: Review of Concerned Members

May 24 2012, 11:17 AM 

Brian wrote: "Even those who have published a book or two seemingly suffer from overly narrow thinking and defensiveness."

Since the Concerned Members web site takes a stand against the Change Movement, then comments made about books that anyone here might have published would be relevant only if those books addressed the abominations of the Change Movement and similar subjects. I'm not aware that anyone here has published such a book. Therefore, Brian's comment is irrelevant and is spawned from his desperate frustration.

 
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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)
72.209.196.118

Re: Review of Concerned Members

May 24 2012, 5:25 PM 


In response to the change agents I reference the example of Abraham

In Gen 12 he was told to do go to a far country by the word of God and he took that in a literal sense even though familiar territory and persons were around him. He chose to obey God and trust in his promises.

In Heb 11/12, Gal 3 and James 2 this same Abraham is held up as a example of the faithful and who will be the recipients of Gods promise of salvation. See also Rom 4 for a description of Abraham as an example to the men and women who please God and are therefore the heirs of the promise of God.

There is no promise of God for grace to those who do not follow his word. The promises of God are conditional and have been shown to be such throughout the Bible. Matt 7 should be read by the change agents among us and considered for the issues are before God not man, and the main issue is the will of God not the approval and praise of men. This is the example of Abraham and Sarah which is fundamental to any religious thought that has as a goal of pleasing God and seeking that city whose builder and maker is God.

Consider that we live in a miserable permissive society and those that love the world do not have the love of God in them.
We should be saving the lost from denominational dogma and confusion rather than trying to justify them based on pious talk and sincere mistakes. God didn't promise to save based on sincerity alone or he would have approved of Cains offering in Gen 4.

Comments welcome


 
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ken sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.73.194

Re: Review of Concerned Members

May 24 2012, 9:43 PM 

Perhaps the focus on "Music" is a way to make people blind to the Word of God which is there for searching and learning. I might add my further comments. The word "believeth" or pistis as used in the Greek texts always includes "to comply." Believeth not or "apistos" means to be in revolt and to betray Jesus Christ.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ
.....neither circumcision availeth any thing,
.....nor uncircumcision;
.....but faith which worketh by love.


energ-e , A. [select] to be in action or activity, operate, effect, execute,

Abraham is not said to have been SAVED because he was not LOST. Sin was in the world so that people could SIN their own sin and not blame ADAM. Abraham is said to have been a RIGHTEOUS man. Saved does not mean Justified.

Heb.11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance,
.....obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb.11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried,
.....offered up Isaac;
.....and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Ja. 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works,
.....when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Ja. 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works,
.....and by works was faith made perfect?
Ja.2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith,
.....Abraham believed God,
.....and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:
.....and he was called the Friend of God.


Abraham is not said to have BELIEVED God until he had obeyed God: Believeth means to COMPLY.

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him:
.....for now I know that thou fearest God,
.....seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord,
.....for because thou hast done this thing,
.....and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son,
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying
.....I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore;
.....and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed [singular]shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
.....because thou hast obeyed my voice.


God restated this to Isaac:

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven,
.....and will give unto thy seed all these countries;
.....and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham
.....obeyed my voice,
.....and kept my charge,
.....my commandments,
.....my statutes,
.....and my laws.

Gen 26:6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar: [obeyed god.]



 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
66.230.80.11

Re: Review of Concerned Members

May 24 2012, 10:01 PM 

ken sublett (Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
Posted May 24, 2012 9:43 PM

Perhaps the focus on "Music" is a way to make people blind to the Word of God which is there for searching and learning. I might add my further comments. The word "believeth" or pistis as used in the Greek texts always includes "to comply." Believeth not or "apistos" means to be in revolt and to betray Jesus Christ.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ
.....neither circumcision availeth any thing,
.....nor uncircumcision;
.....but faith which worketh by love.

energ-e , A. [select] to be in action or activity, operate, effect, execute,

Abraham is not said to have been SAVED because he was not LOST. Sin was in the world so that people could SIN their own sin and not blame ADAM. Abraham is said to have been a RIGHTEOUS man. Saved does not mean Justified.

Heb.11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance,
.....obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb.11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried,
.....offered up Isaac;
.....and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Ja. 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works,
.....when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Ja. 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works,
.....and by works was faith made perfect?
Ja.2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith,
.....Abraham believed God,
.....and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:
.....and he was called the Friend of God.

Abraham is not said to have BELIEVED God until he had obeyed God: Believeth means to COMPLY.

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him:
.....for now I know that thou fearest God,
.....seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord,
.....for because thou hast done this thing,
.....and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son,
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying
.....I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore;
.....and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed [singular]shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
.....because thou hast obeyed my voice.

God restated this to Isaac:

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven,
.....and will give unto thy seed all these countries;
.....and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham
.....obeyed my voice,
.....and kept my charge,
.....my commandments,
.....my statutes,
.....and my laws.

Gen 26:6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar: [obeyed god.]


The roach in the pudding is that if Abraham had not believed God in the first place, he wouldn't have obeyed Him. Your argument is invalid.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Review of Concerned Members

May 24 2012, 11:28 PM 

Brian,

Please be specific or explain your claim: "Your argument is invalid." The above post quoted facts from the Bible:

1. That faith which works with love avails much in Christ Jesus;
2. That by faith Abraham "went out, not knowing whither he went";
3. That Abraham our father was justified by works;
4. That the focus on "music" in the assembly is misdirected...
5. ... when the focus should be to teach and admonish one another ... in songs

Which argument or arguments are invalid, Brian?

 
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Anonymous
(Login BrianCade)
66.230.80.11

Re: Review of Concerned Members

May 24 2012, 11:59 PM 

Ken claimed that Abraham was not considered to have believed God until he obeyed Him. The reverse is true.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Review of Concerned Members

May 25 2012, 12:37 AM 

"Not considered to have believed ... until" may be taken out of context. Perhaps "by whom" may clarify the issue of who said what -- by the liberal or by the conservative; by the RM heritage or by the change agents; etc.

It is rather easy to take the following out of context: "said to not have"; "not said to have"; etc. It would help to know who says what.

As far as sequence in the conversion process, Act 2:37,38 and Romans 10:13-17 will explain it -- preaching ... hearing ... believing, etc. Faith precedes obedience.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
66.230.80.11

Re: Review of Concerned Members

May 25 2012, 2:32 AM 

Donnie Cruz (Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
Posted May 25, 2012 12:37 AM

"Not considered to have believed ... until" may be taken out of context. Perhaps "by whom" may clarify the issue of who said what -- by the liberal or by the conservative; by the RM heritage or by the change agents; etc.

It is rather easy to take the following out of context: "said to not have"; "not said to have"; etc. It would help to know who says what.

As far as sequence in the conversion process, Act 2:37,38 and Romans 10:13-17 will explain it -- preaching ... hearing ... believing, etc. Faith precedes obedience.


Now is not the time to equivocate. Now is the time for honesty. Ken made the claim; Ken was wrong.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.65.95

Re: Review of Concerned Members

May 25 2012, 12:53 PM 

That's a lie: faith comes by hearing the Word of God (only).
Faith does not mean "just believe something."
By FAITH ABRAHAM Obeyed. He might have believed and not obeyed. However, God did not say that Abraham was JUSTIFIED until AFTER He obeyed. Pistis or "believeth" includes to COMPLY with what you believe.

Justified or Saved (sins remitted, regenerated) are ON THE FACE two different words and have different meanings.

Being "Justified" is defined by reading whole thought patterns that "Abraham was not ceremonially unclean." A person is justified by THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST but they are SAVED by His life. Abraham was not "saved" because he was not lost. You MUST understand that Paul was not speaking to Al Maxey: he was speaking to Jews who claimed that "keeping the law and circumcision" JUSTIFIED and therefore qualified ONLY those to be baptized IN ORDER THAT their sins be remitted. Remission of sins comes AFTER obeying the direct command to be baptized.

The word "believer" is only applied to a believer who has been baptism.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Paul said that Abraham was "Justified by Faith." He did not say that he was SAVED by faith only.

Because Paul was literate, he would have read:

Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven,
and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham
.....obeyed my voice,
.....and kept my charge,
.....my commandments,
.....my statutes,
.....and my laws.

Genesis 26:6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:

He that has FAITH (which complieth) AND is baptized SHALL BE Saved.

Maxeyites say: "That is a lie: A person is saved by faith only."

The clergy BELIEVED in Jesus but they DID NOT CONFESS.

Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.65.95 on May 25, 2012 1:15 PM


 
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B
(no login)
74.179.8.115

Re: Review of Concerned Members

May 25 2012, 12:33 PM 

Two groups of people believe that the church of Christ is just another denomination: (1) denominationalists and (2) dissenters in the church of Christ who are denominationalists at heart and who want the church of Christ to become like the denominations.

Denominationalists don't want to believe that Jesus founded only ONE church, which is the church that bears His name, THE church of Christ. Denominationalists would have everyone believe that Jesus authorized a bunch of different "religious groups," all with differing beliefs and doctrines, yet all-pleasing to Jesus. Denominationalists refuse to admit that in the New Testament, Jesus does not once mention any groups such as Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Catholics, and hundreds of other so-called "Christian" denominations. In fact, the word "denomination" doe NOT appear anywhere in the Bible at all. BTW, John the Baptist was not a member of the so-called "Baptist" denomination. He got that title simply because he baptized others to prepare them for the coming of Christ.

Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15 KJV). Jesus did NOT say, "If ye love me, form many different denominations with many beliefs that differ from what I have taught you."

The inspired apostle John said, "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds" (2 John 1:9-11 KJV).

The "doctrine" to which John refers is the "doctrine of Christ," the teachings and commandments of Christ, which He imparted to His inspired apostles. To follow the doctrine of Christ means to obey His teachings AS WRITTEN in the New Testament. Unfortunately, the denominations follow some, but not ALL of Christ's teachings, which just doesn't cut the mustard.

The church of Christ plus all the denominations believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; well and good. But whereas the church of Christ rightly baptizes for remission of sins and salvation as stipulated in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38, other denominations like the present-day "Baptists," for example, believe that baptism has no part in remission of sins and salvation. The "Baptists" believe that all you have to do to be saved is "invite Jesus into your heart as your personal Savior," and THAT'S IT--faith only. I've heard of some "Baptists" who are "members" of their church who have NEVER been baptized. Such doctrine is NOT that of Christ.

Methodists, Catholics and other denominations, for example, approve of infant baptism (ie, "Christening"), yet that is NOT the teaching of Christ. A candidate for baptism must BELIEVE before baptism can be effective: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." (Mark 16:16a KJV). Infants are not yet old enough to believe, and the New Testament does NOT teach that parents can substitute as their infants' proxies in belief. Catholics also believe in such fallacious ideas as venerating the Virgin Mary, "Purgatory" and "Limbo" as "lesser" degrees of hell, or that a deceased person can be "prayed" out of those latter places and enter heaven. Such poppycock is NOT the teaching of Christ.

Look at any of the denominations and you'll find one or more doctrinal deviations from Christ's explicit teachings in the New Testament; such groups do not belong to THE church of Christ.

The church of Christ, on the other hand, follows Christ's explicit teachings AS WRITTEN without seeking to tweak, alter, enhance, accompany, or take away from them to suit man's personal desires.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.65.95

Re: Review of Concerned Members

May 25 2012, 1:09 PM 

That's a fact: those who whine about the church of Christ being "a big ugly denomination" cannot define a denomination. They endorse the Christian Church which is a defact denomination even though lots of Christian Churches do not participate.

You can find the NAME of the all inclusive denomination.
You can find a mailing address and telephone number
Today, you can find their e-mail and "home page."
They will have the Name of the HEAD: the Disciples give their head many of the rights of the Pope.
The HEAD of the NACC during the recent hostile takeover was David faust whose writings we have debunked.
They will hold at least yearly conferences and they will make denominational changes.

In the 1906 Big Fat Lie, the Disciples Christian churches had a plan and a budget. Shortly afterward they joined the National or Denominational organizations. Beginning in 1927 and not completed until 1971 the Christian Churches sected out of the Disciples.

It is true that there are periodic efforts to ORGANIZE churches: the Jubilee movement followed the Willow Creek and another Nashville pattern including yearly conferences intending to RESTRUCTURE churches of Christ into a dominant pastor, elders as board of directors, women leadership, musical worship teams which always intend to impose instruments and ECUMENICAL fellowship with the Christian Churches.

The Tulsa Workshop was one such UNITY EFFORT to which Al Maxey has poured forth.

All such "community" or Commune efforts have failed primarily because most Churches of Christ have been taught the Bible as its central goal. The old "purple hairs" they intended to "roll over" at Madison are often brighter and more Bible literate and such efforts fail. However, we intend to inscribe their names in paper and maybe STONE.

They WILL burn for lying TO God and ABOUT God. This was always a conspiracy of mean wanting to play the role of Women. A Catholic noted that the younger priests are more moral and more dedicated to conservative values.

 
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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)
72.209.196.118

Re: review

May 25 2012, 6:00 PM 


Abraham is a good example for us to follow as is other persons mentioned in Heb 11. The spirit said in Heb 12 that they are a great cloud of witnesses - to the proper pattern of behavior and mindset we are to have to please God. Consider that this direction is simple, easy to follow and will not change for culture, politics, personal wealth or persecution. What this community church movement is headed for is more and more opinion which cannot be bound on the church and which will lead to inconsistency and complexity which divide further and cause more issues. A hypothetical three headed horse has a difficult time deciding what to do - and so do churches which reject the simple pattern of new testament living and worship.

Consider that the under current of this and many related issues today is that the change agents do not have the Abraham mindset.

We have been told to have the mindset of one on a journey to a wonderful place recognizing that this life is a temporary dwelling place not worthy to sacrifice any thing of spiritual value. The spirit also said to love not the world or the things in the world such as the praise and approval of men. Consider also that Christ has all preeminence in religion, not doctors of such and such and learned men and women. Men and women worship God, not each other. We don't just "do church" we glorify and praise God on his terms. We should be faithful to him no matter what insults are sent our way!

Comment welcome

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.129.221

Re: review

May 25 2012, 6:13 PM 

We know exactly how the people of Ur tried to ascend to or bring down their gods.

To see to all of this the god had priests trained as cooks, bakers, waiters, and bathers, or as encomiasts (singers of praise) and musicians to make the god's meals festive, or as elegists to soothe him in times of stress and grief.

"The temple was staffed by priests, priestesses, musicians, singers, castrates and hierodules (including Temple Prostitutes or ministers). Various public rituals, food sacrifices, and libations took place there on a daily basis. There were monthly feasts and annual, New Year celebrations. During the later, the king would be married to Inanna as the resurrected fertility god Dumuzi..."
Ezekiel 8

We cannot imagine Abraham engaging in any of this and God REMOVED Him because he was a man of faith: if God asked him to do something he never whined. So, since Paul in Galatians leaps back to the Covenant God in Christ made with Abraham, it would help to know from what God rescued him and us.

I cannot imagine a preacher running out of material or needing a musical performance to "warm up the crowd."


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.129.221 on May 25, 2012 6:14 PM


 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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