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Jeff Day
(no login)

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 4:32 AM 

Ken, I know that you may find it hard that someone will actually disagree with you, but let's talk about the way things actually are in a world of reality. First, I am a member of Oak Hills.
Second, the Elders, along with members of the staff, undertook a year long study on the issue of instrumental music. The ELDERS concluded as they did, not Max with a gun to their heads. In fact, Max was not a part of the study.
Third, Max does not speak in tongues. I do not know if your quotation of Max supposedly speaking in tongues is one of your erotic fantasies or supposed to be fact. If you contend that it is factual, then I will be the first to call you a LIAR.

Get your facts straight and quit your suppositions which only make you look foolish.

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San Antone
(no login)

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 4:34 AM 

Ken, Oak Hills is led by 15 of the most humble servants of God that you could meet. They spend countless hours meeting together dealing with all of the issues that arise in a 4000 (and rapidly growing) member church. All of the men come from a church of Christ background, and, ironically, most come from extremely conservative backgrounds.

When studying the issue of instrumental music, they drew greatly on the biblical knowledge and expertise of Charles Prince, a retired former minister of Oak Hills who has been a church of Christ minister since the 1950's. Charles is a brilliant man who has greatly blessed the congregation since his retirement 10 years ago.

Unlike what you say, the STAFF has not taken over the BODY. But what the Elders HAVE done is continue to grow and learn from sources available as to what the Bible teaches. Have you reached a point that you have all knowledge in your head or do you continue to grow and learn?

Actually, the name change was pushed largely by a (now retired) elder named David Carpenter. Dave comes from an "anti" background and was an elder at Oak Hills for probably 20 years. He and his wife, Charlene, are great servants of the Lord and have reached many people for the Lord and have raised Godly children. Dave and Charlene moved into a new housing area a few years back and made the effort to knock the door of every home in their new neighborhood and invite their neighbors to services with them. (This was around 100 homes.) By far, the greatest response they received was that the neighbors were thankful they stopped by, but because of the name "church of Christ" associated with their church, the neighbors would not visit. Some of the neighbors related very frightful encounters with members of the "church of Christ" in the past. So they began thinking, what can Oak Hills do to remove this impediment to people coming to services at Oak Hills. This is where the idea started, not Max as you incorrectly assumed.

By the way, I believe that the study on baptism found on the church's website, hits the nail on the head as far as biblical teaching on baptism. Don't make it something that it is not, but do not dilute the power and necessity for it.

If you are quoting some supposed tape of Max speaking in tongues you are again WRONG. (Much like many of your other assumptions.) Perhaps you should take the time to leave your home, come to San Antonio, and visit with Max. I will even buy you dinner. And, do not come back with this "Max is unreachable." Max is the most accessible (and humble, as a matter of fact) person that I know. Especially given his schedule. It is very easy to demonize someone from a distance that you have never even met. Agree or disagree with the decisions, there are legitimate reasons and rationale for each one. I have spoken to Max about Don Finto and he does not know where he comes up with being an "apostle". He said if that is what he thinks then he is "wrong." Perhaps you should also try to find the truth before you continue to spread your false rumors.

For example, the Oak Hills building is located on Interstate 10 in a nicer area of San Antonio. When we moved to this location, we moved our food and clothing ministry (which now serves 1000 families per month) to a mostly abandoned inner city church of Christ facility. We have recently purchased 6 acres of land in their community to construct a larger food and clothing facility as well as provide a building for worship services and bible study. Oh, forgot to mention that as a direct result of this outreach ministry, over 100 have been baptized (you know, that thing you claim we have eliminated) into Christ, but because of transportation issues most of these people are squeezed into a small room for Sunday services in Spanish at the inner city facility.

Finally, one last thing on the name. There will be something added on the name which reflects the name of Christ. (Much like many other churches of Christ across the country who are attempting to reach the lost.) A final decision on that has not been made and if you drive I 10 today, you will still see Church of Christ. Of course, our biggest problem is facility size. We have not enough parking spaces and not enough seating spaces in the auditorium. Between second and third service yesterday, no parking spaces were left available on our property.

I am curious of two things, Ken. Do you attend services at a congregation of the Lord's people? If so, which congregation. Second, do they have these problems?

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(no login)

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 4:35 AM 

Ken, I am not sure that this site is meant as a forum for lengthy discussion or not, but let me just make a few observations.

First, it is obvious to anyone who knows what is going on at Oak Hills that much of what you write is supposition, assumptions and just plain false.

Second, rather than challenging Charles Prince to a debate, why don't you take the time to call him, or call the church office and ask for a copy of the position paper which he prepared several years ago on the subject of instrumental music. I am sure that copies are still available. (210) 698-6868.

I hope that all who read this will take the time to read the links you have provided in your response. That will clear indication to all of the background from which you come. To equate Max's statement that "Oak Hills is on the verge" of great things to a "penis" (along with graphic pictures to back up your statement) is ..... well, I can't think of a good word here, other than sick. (Sorry, folks that is Ken's word, not mine.)

Ken, I do not understand why you did not answer my question about which congregation you attend. The only reason I can think for you not answering this question is that you, in fact, do not attend a congregation of the Lord's body. I am curious if this is a correct assumption?


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(no login)

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 4:37 AM 

Ken, the quote that I was referring to was in your article entitled "Shepherding Max Lucado Oak Hills," in which you state (about halfway down the article):


Again, Dennis Downing is the only missionary from Oak Hills in Brazil. I guess the ball is in your court Ken.

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(no login)


June 7 2012, 7:45 AM 

We've heard of The Three Faces of Eve, but 13 different Ken-bashing "faces" from the same "person" are rather bizarre.

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(no login)

Re: "Faces"

June 8 2012, 9:39 AM 

So we're expected to believe that 13 different "people" all ganged together to post messages from the SAME IP address on the SAME day in the WEE hours of the morning? Seems like quite a few "people" couldn't sleep because they were upset about Ken, so they all felt compelled to "meet" before dawn to bash him. Great jumpin' Caesar's ghost!

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Brian: you may be doing something criminal and illegal?

June 7 2012, 11:45 AM 

Dennis Downing, Max Lucado's Man in Brazil

Dennis Downing:
Paul was devoted to a Person not to a cause.
He was absolutely Jesus Christ's; he saw nothing else;
he lived for nothing else.

'For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.'" (Oswald Chambers, My Utmost for His Highest, Grand Rapids, MI: Discovery House Publishers 1989.)

Max was a late commer to Operation 68 some of whom I knew and who were converted to SPIRITISM

1Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you,
came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom,
declaring unto you the testimony of God.

The testimony is by the Spirit of Christ.

1Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

ALL of the preachers think Paul said "I determined not to PREACH anything."

g1492 Eido Be aware, have knowledge, be sure, tell, understand

Dennis didn't even quote Paul's OWN explanation of "Knowing Chrixt."


1Corinthians 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
1Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of mans wisdom,
but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Corinthians 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

[linked image]


2Co 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee:
behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
2Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
2Co 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God,

Christ and Him Crucified was a DEACON.

Diakonos (g1249) dee-ak'-on-os; prob. from an obs. diako , (to run on errands; comp. 1377; an attendant, i.e. (gen.) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); spec. a Chr. teacher and pastor (techn. a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant

in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
2Co 6:5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
2Co 6:6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
2Co 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
2Co 6:8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
2Co 6:9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
2Co 6:10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

2Co 6:11 O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.


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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)


June 10 2012, 3:38 PM 

kat-auleô ,

A. charm by flute-playing, tinos Pl.Lg.790e, cf. R.411a; tina Alciphr.2.1: metaph., se . . -êsô phobôi I will flute to you on a ghastly flute, E.HF871 (troch.):--Pass., of persons, methuôn kai katauloumenos drinking wine to the strains of the flute, Pl.R.561c; k. pros chelônidos psophon to be played to on the flute with lyre accompaniment, Posidon.10 J., cf. Call.Fr.10.3 P., Phld.Mus.p.49 K.

The BEAST in revelation is defined as "A new style of music or drama." The BEAST was the Satyric dance and drama detailed in Greek literature and art. Here is is a wide view:

[linked image]

And a detail: notice that the WINESKIN was always involved in PHALLIC dramas honoring Dionysus who IS still the wineskin God. The Jews burned Goats with instrumental noise to feed and appease the God of the VINEYARD which is aka WINESKINS.

[linked image]

When Paul warned elders not to BE NEAR wine he was warning about the Symposium where the men were "fluted down" or "harped down" with wine.

[linked image]

Plato's Symposium

Plutarch's Symposium VII

If you do a google on Musical Worship Teams you will see that the PERSONA is of people "drunk, perverted or just having fun."

Leaven is the FOUNDATION of the New Wineskinners.

Leaven is the universal symbol of the Pharisees and other evil (speakers, singers, instrument players Ezek 33)

I'm not sure why Brian is so hot to LIE ON BEDS OF IVORY with these people.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

god's caught you in the red light district.

June 10 2012, 4:21 PM 

[linked image]
[linked image]

The Levites as prophesiers were Soothsayers with instruments: so was Miriam, Al Maxey's patternism.

Their name, tithe, dress, methods and falsetto singing style was MALES performing FEMALE roles because females were prohibited. Plato warns that gender-bleed happens when males perform the female roles too long. Don't BOW and sing and dance when they PIPE. Just can't read the text? I told you that david stripped off his STOLA which was the garment of bad women and that left him with the Babylon Ephod: that's what God and the CHANGELINGS have abandoned you to do.

[linked image]

That's the PURPOSE DRIVEN PERSONA and explains why up to half of the owners cast themselves out of their own synagogue.

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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

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At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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