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1 Corinthians 13 Speaking in tongues

June 6 2012 at 10:40 AM
Ken Sublett  (Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
from IP address 166.248.69.96



http://www.piney.com/1.Corinthians.13.Speaking.In.Tongues.html

1Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels,
and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

La^l-e ,Mark of the Locusts
II. chatter, Opposite. articulate speech, as of locusts, chirp, Theoc.5.34; mesmbrias lalein tettix (sc. eimi), a very grasshopper to chirp at midday,
III. of musical sounds, aul [flute] lale Theoc.20.29; of trees, v.supr.1.2; di'aulou [flute] salpiggos l.[trumpet] Arist. Aud.801a29; of Echo, magadin lalein sound the magadis, [double flute]



Why do you keep harping on instruments in the church?


Paul commands us to speak the inspired Biblical Text for our education and comfort.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hymns.Spiritual.Songs.html

Titus 1 Don't Giving Heed to Jewish Fables by the musical discorders.

http://www.piney.com/Titus.1.Not.Giving.Heed.To.Jewish.Fables.html

We know that it mortally irritates some who call themselves conservatives. However, the only clear attack against churches of Christ since the spawning of the Stone-Campbell Movement has been in brutalizing those who refuse to DO what they have never done and keep on speaking the Word.

This attack by the "progressive" in but not of churches of Christ is used by the enemies of the word to keep up the attack. Just look up the word Campbellism or Campbellite.

Furthermore, Instruments have been the means and signs of all falls from Grace beginning in the garden of Eden and ending in Revelation where the religious instrumentalists are called "fruits" and "Sorcerers."

The Beast in Revelation MIGHT be a four footed beast but not likely. The only other definition which fits the musical sorcerers is "A new style of music or drama." Now, what else has afflicted all Bible-rooted groups in the turn of the century.

Having largely failed at stealing the church houses of widows the new Missional Ministry intends to use the money of non-instrumental church to set up instrumental churches.




    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.81.189 on Aug 10, 2012 11:53 AM


 
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Bobby
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66.230.82.165

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 3:40 AM 


I have had several conversations with Ken Sublett, he is indeed conservative, but more than that he seems to have several screws loose-his porch light flickers-a few bricks shy of a load, etc...

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.64.43

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 10 2012, 2:04 PM 

No Brian Cade: you are lying by using Bobby's handle and we have never discussed.

John said that LIARS and sorcerers (speakers, singers, players) will (have been) cast alive into the lake of fire.

 
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Stoned-Campbell Disciple
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66.230.82.165

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 3:43 AM 

Ken,

I did not know you read my blog. I have visited piney on a few occasions and have found it to be literally colorful. I am glad you are here. Your review of Moser, you are not shocked to learn, that I disagree with ... and usually find simply following your train of thought to be difficult.

 
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Keith
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66.230.82.165

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 3:44 AM 

Ken,
Are you suggesting that Huldah was not a prophet, but a librarian? Maybe I misunderstood the intent of your post. 2 Kings 22:14 and 2 Chronicles 34:22 say Huldah was a prophet.
-Keith

 
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Keith
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66.230.82.165

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 3:46 AM 

Ken,
I don't think you really answered my question. I'm guessing it's because you don't want to say that Huldah was a prophet. Please correct me if I am misrepresenting you.
I don't see Huldah providing any "stored texts" to the king's men. Rather, she validates that this book is indeed the Book of the Law, she interprets it for them (and for the King), then provides a specific message from God to King Josiah. If she's a librarian, she is QUITE a librarian. I think calling her a prophet better summarizes her actions here and do the writers of Kings and Chronicles.
When the king said, "Go enquire of the Lord" his men went straight to Huldah.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.64.43

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 10 2012, 5:14 PM 

Well, we know that Huldah was not a preacher, song leader or elder or deacon. The king did not trust the COPY of the book that the priests had ACCIDENTIALY found when cleaning out the temple.

Your false teaching friends, such as Shelly will take this isolated fact about a woman who knew more about the Law than the king and priests because SHE had a copy of the law and made certain that no preachers added any umms or uhhs or I think AND use that as a PATTERNISM for women to be STAND UP-SPEAK OUT and be elders because she sets her own vain imagination to a tune. They MEAN that we don't care what Paul said.

And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the kings, saying, 2Ki 22:12

Go ye, enquire of the Lord for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the Lord that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us. 2Ki 22:13

So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess,
.....the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah,
.....the son of Harhas,
.....keeper of the wardrobe;
(now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed [spoke] with her. 2Ki 22:14

H5031 nebyâh neb-ee-yaw' Feminine of H5030 ; a prophetess or (generally) inspired woman; by implication a poetess; by association a prophet's wife:prophetess.


The king did not want her to be a PROPHET but she could be a prophet simply by READING the Word as written with no room for SILENCE from very vocal preadhers.

H4932 mishneh mish-neh' From H8138 ; properly a repetition, that is, a duplicate (copy of a document), or a double (in amount); by implication a second (in order, rank, age, quality or location):college, copy, double, fatlings, next, second (order), twice as much.

Huldah did not PROPHESY but because she was keeper of the copies of the Law she knew it pretty well and RESPONDED from the COPY of the Law in safe keeping.

2Kings 22:17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.
2Kings 22:18 But to the king of Judah which sent you to inquire of the LORD,
.....thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel,
.....As touching the words which thou hast heard;
2Kings 22:19 Because thine heart was tender,
.....and thou hast humbled thyself before the LORD,
.....when thou heardest what I spake against this place,
.....and against the inhabitants thereof,
.....that they should become a desolation and a curse,
.....and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me;
.....I also have heard thee, saith the LORD.
2Kings 22:20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.


If the women who know when the preacher is lying would stand up and wave a copy of the word in his face I can go along with that. They seem to know when boylings as "worship teams" are gyrating to get their worshipers moving in "symphony" and run for their lives to closest Laver.


 
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Keith
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Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 3:47 AM 

Ken, you're funny. It's amazing how many times you've mentioned musical instruments when it's not even in the scope of the discussion.

I do find your Librarian Hypothesis creative and entertaining. Unfortunately, the facts just don't support it. You've attempted to redefine words and history to support your position. You might be better off searching for the facts then adjusting you position instead of the other way around.

Please take my criticism with a grain of salt, as I find myself doing the same thing sometimes. Perhaps we all do. Therefore, a message to us all:

Dude, you can't just make stuff up.

 
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mattdabbs
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66.230.82.165

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 3:52 AM 

As I read through what you are writing here there are interpretations all over the place. Interpret just means to explain the meaning of something. Your comments and your website are chocked full of interpretations. The only way to avoid that is to just paste whole blocks of biblical text with NO explanation. You give tons of explanation and conclusionsthat is interpretation. It may seem elementary to you but you still had to interpret the meaning of the text to write the vast majority of what you write.

So lets just get over the idea that the Bible is not to be interpreted (ie. explained) because we are called to do just that. Any time you explain anything from the Bible you have moved into interpretation.

If you are going to stick with what you said you need to not offer any more explanations to the text. Just copy and paste scripture and let it speak for itself.

 
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Royce
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66.230.82.165

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 3:59 AM 

Most readers will be aware of the Contending for the Faith lectures hosted by the Spring, Texas church of Christ. The most recent event was titled gProfiles in Apostasy #1. I watched several of the lectures. One by one speakers were introduced and they would then systematically condemn some of the best and brightest men ever to grace church of Christ pulpits or write books. The gApostatesh they chose to expose were:


Alan Hughes, Todd Deaver, Al Maxey, Cecil Hook, Bill Love, Olan Hicks, James Bales, John Mark Hicks, Leroy Garrett, Carl Ketcherside, Jimmy Allen, Marvin Phillips, Lynn Anderson, Lenard Allen, Mike Cope, Rubel Shelly, Jeff Walling, Edward Fudge, Carol Osborn, K.C. Moser, and F. Legard Smith.

What offence did these men commit that got them branded as gApostatesh? Everyone of them teaches or taught salvation by grace as a free gift. It is about that simple. I know and have had talks with a few of these men and have read most of the others. They are, or were, good men, devoted to Jesus and lovers of His people.

The accusers of the brothers were:


David Brown, Terry Hightower, Lester Kamp, Lynn Parker, Skip Francis, Danny Douglas, Bruce Stulting, Johnny Oxendine, Ken Chumbley, Paul Vaughn, John West, Danial Coe, Gene Hill, Doug Post, Wayne Blake, Ken Sublett, Michael Hatcher, Daniel Denham, John Rose, Jimmy Gribble, Lee Moses, Gary Summers, Jess Whitlock, and Dub McClish.

I donft know any of these men personally, and know little about them. My hope is that they are just brothers who are in error and that somehow they will come to the knowledge of the truth. However, after listening to a few of them (likely a fair sampling of the whole) I question if they are brothers.

What is shockingly clear is that at least some of them teach what Paul would call ganother gospelh. I heard mentioned more than once a reference to gObeying the plan of salvationh and that gplanh was spelled out. It was also clear that they believe that they alone are saved and stay saved, not because of what Jesus accomplished for them but that they are in the right church, believe the right doctrine, and worship according to the supposed gpatternh.

(One name I left off in the list of people attacked was Dave Miller of Apologetics Press. He was roundly condemned as an apostate because of a sermon he preached on the reaffirmation of elders years ago. Miller is a perfect example of a legalist, but even one of their own is condemned to hell if he offends in any way.)

What you will see if you care to watch the lectures is a gParade of Phariseesg. They are no different than those in Jesus day. They teach that you must trust Christ and do this and this and this to be saved. And, you must believe this and do this and this and this to stay saved, and that they and those who adhere to their teachings are the only ones saved. Their contempt was not only for modern day grace men but they attacked Alexander Campbell and other Restoration Movement founders as well. In their view, anyone who even hints that anyone other than conservative church of Christ people are saved is wrong and deserves to be openly condemned.

Why should anyone believe these men are saved? Because they have been baptized? Because they are church of Christ preachers? Because they are gfaithfulh or gsoundh? Not everyone who claims Christ belongs to Him. Not all that glitters is gold.


gBeware of false prophets, who come to you in sheepfs clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. hNot everyone who says to me, eLord, Lord,f will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, eLord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?f And then will I declare to them, eI never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.f (Matthew 7:15-23)

It may well be the case that our greatest mission field is in our own churches. Men much more learned than I estimate that roughly one half of Churches of Christ are gconservativeh. Likely, most of those people believe every word these false teachers say.

These facts call for Christ centered teaching, love expressed in patience, and praying that the Holy Spirit will prick hard hearts and that God will grant repentance bring the lost to himself.

The worst enemy of the Christian faith has always been religion. It is still true today. The most dangerous enemy in a war is the one who marches with our own, under our flag. We must remember though that our enemy in not flesh and blood but the god of this world who is the master counterfeiter.

God help us.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.68.5

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 10 2012, 8:57 PM 

False teachers

Alan Hughes, [don't know]

I have reviewed all of these.

Todd Deaver, Al Maxey, Cecil Hook, Bill Love, Olan Hicks, James Bales, John Mark Hicks, Leroy Garrett, Carl Ketcherside, Jimmy Allen, Marvin Phillips, Lynn Anderson, Lenard Allen, Mike Cope, Rubel Shelly, Jeff Walling, Edward Fudge, Carol Osborn, K.C. Moser,

All of these can probably be lined up like ducks to one or two false teachers: no original teaching in any of them that does not prove their postmodern view that YOU are free to take any statement in the Bible and WRITE YOURSELF into the narrative to make yourself the Moses or Christ for YOUR group. Most of us would call that proof of being STRONGLY DELUDED which is MARKED by the BEAST: "a new style of music or drama."

None of them can take a whole thought pattern and speak about it: they take tidbits and fabricate their own songs and sermons: Pretty Biblically and Spiritually illiterate.

the-ama , Ion. theêma , atos, to, ( [theaomai] )
A. sight, spectacle, Semon.7.67, A.Pr.306, E.Supp.783, Ar.Av.1716, etc.; ei tis orchoit' eu, theam' ên Pl.Com.130 ; opp. mathêma, Th.2.39; freq. of a sight which gives pleasure, theamata kai akroamata hêdista parecheis X.Smp.2.2 , cf. 7.5; orchêseis kai theamata Phld.Mus.p.26 K.; emplêsthête tou kalou th. Pl. R.440a; but also th. dustheaton A.Pr.69 , cf. S.Aj.992; hepta th. the seven wonders of the world, Str.14.2.5, Plu.2.983e: sg., of a marvellously engraved ring, Gal.UP17.1.

X.Smp.2.2 Xenophon, Symposium II. When the tables had been removed and the guests had poured a libation and sung a hymn, there entered a man from Syracuse, to give them an evening's merriment. He had with him a fine flute-girl, a dancing-girl--one of those skilled in acrobatic tricks,--and a very handsome boy, who was expert at playing the cither and at dancing; the Syracusan made money by exhibiting their performances as a spectacle. [2] They now played for the assemblage, the flute-girl on the flute, the boy on the cither; and it was agreed that both furnished capital amusement. Thereupon Socrates remarked: On my word, Callias, you are giving us a perfect dinner; for not only have you set before us a feast that is above criticism, but you are also offering us very delightful sights and sounds. [3] Suppose we go further, said Callias, and have some one bring us some perfume, so that we may dine in the midst of pleasant odours, also. No, indeed! replied Socrates

What use will you make of them? the other asked.
I will dance, by Zeus.


I know F. Legard Smith: he got on the black list I think because when he retreats to England to write, they attend an instrumental church which SHUTS down the instruments when he is present.

I don't know any of the RIGHT WINGERS except I dated one of their wives during summer break from college. Fine person.


 
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striving4
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66.230.82.165

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 4:09 AM 

The person who runs the piney site, posts on concernedmembers.com all the time also. He has some bizarre views. The concerned members site is dedicated to fighting the change agents - which are those who dont think just like them. One of the guys on that site goes to a church and takes notes on what happens then writes them up on the site. I guess he has the spritual gift of watchdog. :D
RM


well partly why I asked is the amount of info.

Its nearly staggering.

One person does this?

If so nearly 99% of his info would have to be hearsay, unless he personally attends a different congregation every week or has lackeys among every congregation he reports on.....

If its just him and not a network this man should take this to heart......

Matthew 18
15 If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.

--------------------

Phillipians 2
3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.

--------------------

Romans 15
1We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.

--------------------

Exodus 20
16 You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

--------------------

Leviticus 19
16 \" 'Do not go about spreading slander among your people.
\" 'Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor's life. I am the LORD .

--------------------

Galatians 5
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

--------------------

Mark 7
20He went on: \"What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.

---------------------

Mark 7
1\"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

LOLOLOL!!! Clifty even way down here, I knew who piney was!!

Beyond the pale to be sure it is now!

I just went and posted the following message to the concerned members 4 boards........

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]As a Christian we are to follow Christ.

Matthew 18
15\"If your brother sins against you,[2] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[3] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18\"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19\"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.\"


Talking behind people's backs and gossipping and slandering them is no way to conduct your life as a Christian.

Phillipians 2
3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.

--------------------

Romans 15
1We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.

--------------------

Exodus 20
16 You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

--------------------

Leviticus 19
16 \" 'Do not go about spreading slander among your people.
\" 'Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor's life. I am the LORD .

--------------------

Galatians 5
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

--------------------

Mark 7
20He went on: \"What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.

---------------------

Mark 7
1\"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.


[/quote]

I wonder if the moderator will post it? Do you want to know if that site is a tool for Christ or simply a tool?

Go back and see if it gets posted... considering its pretty much the words of the bible.... If they don't post the words of the bible, something is definitely wrong with them.

The guy lives in a small town in Tennessee I believe. If you go to the concernmembers site you will see several posts from him that you could reply to. His name is Ken Sublett. Expect a lot of stange rambling mixed with something that sounds like greek mythology. There is also most likely a link on piney somewhere but good luck finding it in that mess.

The scary thing is that Ken Sublett is hailed by the concerned members as a scholar and disseminator of God's own Truth. If you have the patience to sit and read even one of his posts on that website, you might come away believing in modern day demon possession. But the worst part are all the amens that come afterward from others.

I would honestly like to meet this guy just to see what kind of person has a mind like that.

He's definitely committed.




 
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James Wood
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66.230.82.165

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 4:16 AM 

Ken, thank you for your passion for the Word and the truth communicated therein. Id like to address some of your critiques, if I may. When we discuss together, we sharpen each other like iron sharpens iron (Pr. 27.17).

In the context of Ephesians 1:1-14, its addressed by Paul (though that may be up for debate among scholars, I chose to stick with the traditional view) to the saints in Ephesus (again, Im taking the traditional view here). So, in verse 5, the antecedent to us is clearly Paul and the Ephesians, not the Jews.

So, what do we do with Christians who are predestined? What does a careful reading of the Bible lead us to conclude?

I dont want to overstep the bound of what the Bible says. I want to let the Bible interpret the Bible rather than letting my presuppositions cloud the issue. What I read in Ephesians 1 is an overarching message of how much God loves us and how active he has been in pursuing his people. I cant say exactly what predestination means (and I hope I communicated that uncertainty well in the chapter), but I do know that Gods action toward humanity comes out of his love for us and his desire that we be saved. That gives me hope

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.64.43

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 10 2012, 2:33 PM 

Here's the fact, Brian. You surely know that none of your multiple personalities has the guts to respond.

The ONLY SPIRITUAL Covenant was made by God in CHRIST to Abraham. Abraham was chosen because he OBEYED all of God's laws, commands, covenants and decrees (Genesis 26) The Commission of Jesus was to ALL NATIONS (Gentiles) since He did not recognize the Jews who had long ago chosen to repudiate HIS WORD.

God EXCLUDED the tribe of Levi and warned us NOT to attend their services or agree with their covenant (Genesis 49)

Paul makes it certain that the NEW COVENANT is not related to the JEWS but to those who accept the Abrahamic Covenant by being SAVED by faith WHEN they are baptized into Christ. There is no racial distinction in Jesus Christ:

Isa 41:8 - But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
Isa 41:9 - Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant;I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.


HERE IS HOW GOD CHOOSES: JUST LIKE A FOOTBALL COACH. SILLY PEOPLE WHO THINK THEY CAN BE A DISCIPLE OF CHRIST BY CALLING HIM A LIAR IN ALL OF THE BAPTISM PASSAGES WILL NEVER BE ELECTED TO HIS TEAM

Isa 48:10 - Behold,I have refined thee, but not with silver;
I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

Isa 49:7 - Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.


GOD choose those who respond to the ELECTOS and become the ELECT. You choose your ways but GOD chooses or elects those who obey him

H977 bâchar baw-khar' A primitive root; properly to try, that is, (by implication) select: acceptable, appoint, choose (choice), excellent, join, be rather, require.

God did NOT command anything within the record left by the Lying pen of the Scribes: they are for our LEARNING mostly of what NOT to do.

Isa 66:3 - He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
Isa 66:4 - I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because whenI called, none did answer; whenI spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in whichI delighted not.

 
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Doug
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66.230.82.165

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 4:20 AM 

Ken said You may remember that the instrumentalists exited and then attempted to confiscate the property. Actually Ken, I dont remember that one and since I was an instumentalist, youd think that I would remember that one. Are you talking about a single congregational split that was resolved in a court of law or what. Sweeping generalizations like this dont serve any purpose.

 
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Doug
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Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 4:22 AM 


So the generalization you made, instrumentalists exited and then attempted to confiscate the property was really just one congregation, the Sand Creek congregation and the court case decided which of the two rival groups of congregants had title to the Sand Creek property. That is in no way a conspiracy, Ken. Just two factions in a Congregation who both think that they own the rights to a piece of property and wound up going to court to resolve their differences. To me, the big failure of both groups was that they had to go to court to resolve the issue and in doing so, sullied the name of Christs Church. Incidently, I think the Judge got it right in this case but what that case means today is unclear. I supose it means if your incorporation papers clearly indicate that the Church is acapella, a Instumental faction of the Church will lose in a court case where they attempt to gain title to the property in defiance of the incorporation papers define. Thats all it means to me no big conspiracy that I can determine.

There were many Churches who alternately choose the name Christian Church or Church of Christ without the attached meant Instumental or Acapella at the time ( and even later) of this court case. In fact, the Church of my childhood, located in Washington County, Tennessee was a Church of Christ but had both piano and organ inside of it. They only fairly recently changed their name to Christian Church.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.68.5

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 10 2012, 9:18 PM 

Not so: personal experience after I left.

They gang up with Christian churches and load the congregation with those in favor of instruments. [Shelly, Atchley, Jones, Henderson, Lucado (baptists).

They convince all of the godly members that not using instruments is legalism and marks them--re Rubel Shelly--along with fire bombers of abortion clinics or muggers of ladies with fur coats. [Al Maxey and Rubel have a long list of RACA words as weapons]

They send the youth to camps with lots of instrumental music and says Rick Atchley "teach them to leave our movement."

They preach long and hard against sectarianism.

They tell them that the old bylaws do not permit instruments.

They define that as SECTARIANISM (like the deed to your house)

They tell them that they can be sued and loose all of their property if they are convicted of being a sectarian.

The hire an attorney to mangle the old deed and bylaws.

They hold a vote on the NEW bylaws and win. The dupes vote to keep from losing their homes and everything for being convicted as a SECTARIAN.

They impose "musical worship teams" to soften you up and THEN impose instruments: that is THE meaning of legalism or sectarianism.

Of course this is as violent as one can get and stay out of jail only because godly people can be robbed of their coat and cloak.
If they will lie, cheat and steal the church houses of widows and honest workers they WOULD steal your property if they thought they could get by with it.

Can they just be ignorant morons? Of course not: they don't care that Jesus invites the twos and threes to come outside of the masses: how can you get rich following the teaching pattern ordained in Exodus 18?


 
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Charles McLean
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66.230.82.165

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 4:23 AM 


Ive read Bro Subletts writings on a number of occasions, and have perused his website, and the more I read, the more I realized that there was nothing there. Now, reviving a two-year old thread to call 99% of the church blasphemers and to revive an ancient dispute over some property? Why?

But speech is free, I suppose, and sometimes its priced about right.

 
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Jeff Day
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66.230.82.165

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 4:28 AM 

I don't blame Oak Hills Church of Christ for taking "Church of Christ" off of their sign. If I had a choice, I would have it done at our church also. It is ashame the reputation we have forged for ourselves over the past 50 years. "The ones who think they are the only ones going to heaven" is RIGHT. I am 39 and I can't tell you how many HUNDREDS of times I have heard that over my lifetime. But, unfortunately, we have made our bed and now we must lie in it.

To say that they are not "New Testament Christians" is a VERY dangerous statement to make...it borders on Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (to call something of God, of the devil or not of God). I would really rethink that if I were you.

Just because the old pharaseeical version of the Church of Christ that you love so well is dieing off is no reason to criticize a BODY of believers that wish to change the letters on their sign...last time I looked, what sign we have on our building or what we call the name of our churches is NOT commanded ANYWHERE in the Bible.

By the way, THE CHURCH at Oak Hills is making these decisions. They have ELDERS, DEACONS, and MINISTRY LEADERS there. Don't write your article like MAX is making all of these changes. You seem to think that it is HIS fault when obviously the CHURCH at Oak Hills is making these determinations.

My 2 cents....


 
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Jeff Day
(no login)
66.230.82.165

Re: Speaking Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

June 7 2012, 4:30 AM 

Kenny, again you never cease to amaze me with your non sensical diatribes. YOU DON'T MAKE ANY SENSE. You claim Promise Keepers is a cult..PROVE IT! Have you ever been to a PK meeting? Do you know Max Lucado personally? All these are necessary for you to spout off like you do. You need a little more time in the sanitarium my backwoods friend.

You do not help your cause with your blusterings, you only show how big of a fool you really are.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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