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New Wineskins Magazine Transformation

June 8 2012 at 9:52 PM
Ken Sublett  (Login Ken.Sublett)
from IP address

New Wineskins Magazine Review

was begun by Rubel Shelly and Mike Cope in 1992 in the midst of the Jubilee movement attempting to transistion churches of Christ. After the latest meltdown is is being given CPR with some funding.

Oak Hills Church of Christ under Max Lucado

People make promises until they have enough bodies to support them their their old faithful promise was expressed by Rick Atchley: "That was then but this is now." All forms of poetry and music was always called lying. They followed the Law of Silence and wrote their poems and songs according to "What SHOULD have been." Musical Worship Ministers do the same thing and tell Christ and His Word to shut their face.

Max Lucado claims that the elders made their discording decision based on the Bible, Jesus and prayer. We can prove to you that the vision came from a Chris Seidman white paper which their "worship leader" dared me to refute. Of course, these people just look up all of the "instrument" passage and conclude that God COMMANDED them to impose what Christ was an abandonment without redemption because of musical idolatry.

[linked image]
[linked image]

I am updating my review of New Wine Skins Magazine since I can no longer post rebuttal.

Many of these articles fit the massive assault against Churches of Christ under the Rubel Shelly leadership.

False teachers such as Al Maxey, Jay Guin and Edward Fudge are featured editors so we know that the new owner of the magazine is hostile. They are really NACC agents flying pirates flags. They are endorsed by the Christian Standard so we know that they use the Christ Logo to teach outlandish stuff.

They tried to sell online subscriptions when they could no longer sell the print version. Now the leader of the pace offers it FREE online and Okey U magazine endorses.

I will add some of my latest review soon.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Oct 3, 2013 2:00 PM

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Max Lucado Index of False Teachings

June 10 2012, 7:50 PM 

You should understand that if you want to be rich and famous you fall into all kinds of temptations: one is to write everything to appease everyone. Too bad that he uses narative theology to tell the story as HE would have it told: poets and musicians were NEVER permitted to write true history and Poets or Song writers were EXCLUDED from the profession of a HERALD defined as a Presbyter or Kerusso (precher). If he adds to or changes the command from the king to a field commander, or if he charges on the receiving end he was to be punished. How about those who cannot carry the Words of Christ from the source to the pulpit.

If you profess to being a Baptist then why not go get a job with the Baptists rather than turning what he thought of his church to a Baptist Pastor.

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john watson smith
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new wineskins

June 12 2012, 10:12 AM 

I took a look at the new wineskins web site and noted one of the items of interest was John's baptism. The website takes great care to say that John's baptism was for remission of sins. I once heard a non institutional preacher make the same claim. But then the message stops - so my question is where are the progressives (new wineskins) going with this? One can predict that they may be trying to justify Baptists or Christian Church baptism. There is no way to claim forgiveness of sin outside of the Gospel of christ and promote this idea as being obtained by study and prayer. Consider that the Lord is not the author of confusion.

As I read the scriptures I see a clear a simple way of salvation described by God. I see one Lord one Faith and one Baptism. I see the one and only plan of salvation that is to be taught to all races and cultures as long as time lasts. It is truth and not a cultural place in time that needs revising by those with "special wisdom".

To the man and woman in the pew the Bible warning of many wolves and false prophets going out among us rings true today. Because one has advanced degrees, has held 500 meetings, been in 18 foreign nations, has written books and manuscripts does not qualify one to be unquestioned. Measure everything you hear and see by the word of God. What fits within the new testament is worth keeping - all else is swill.

Comments Welcome

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: new wineskins

June 12 2012, 12:26 PM 

That's why it is good that we have two sides to our mouth!

While they can never admit your posts, there seems to be a bit of of moderation probably based on the overwhelming posting of Scripture (beginning with the flood and the Red Sea as prophetic types).

As far as I know most of the insiders at New Wine Skins Magazine are violently opposed to having to "obey" anyone to be saved.

Keith let me do a rebuttal of all of Jay Guin's Instrumental articles featuring Rick Atchley and Chris Seidman. He recently refused to let me connect Abraham's covenant by God in Christ to its fulfillment in galatians 3.

Erasmus was probably one of the most vocal against people who use a verse out of context and claim that that is the whole truth. Narrative Theology and the latest pattern of Lipscomb of using your imagination as the the "spirit's" truth to them. Their 2012 workshop includes lots of false teachers. We just have to laugh the "scholars" out of town.

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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)

How did wineskins authors become leaders?

June 12 2012, 9:12 PM 

I am reminded of the tactics of Marxism to bring proponents of their slavery to power by any means - even by stating scriptures and ideas in favor with the masses. Then when power and acceptance have been obtained they begin the revolution into what they really want. What they want is esteem and control and to "rescue" us.

A description of how these wineskins men came to be "leaders" in the church would make for interesting reading.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: How did wineskins authors become leaders?

June 12 2012, 9:39 PM 

Very early in churches of Christ I think it was the Jubilee movement spawned by Rubel Shelly. He appealed to Machiavelli who warned that change takes a long time. With Rich Atchley it took about 12 years. Machiavelli said that change is slow because the "nation knows that it has law on it's side. He said that change comes from either prayer or force and that prayer rarely worked. That is proven by the real and psychological violence used by those suddenly stirred to "unity" with the NACC.

Adolph Hitler in Mein Kampf Ch 2 chapter 6

This explains why there were so many MASS MOVEMENTS fueled by professors and preachers at once-Christian Colleges. The Tulsa Workshop Soul Winning Workshop finally confessed that they were winning souls for the NACC which probably does not speak for most independants.

The mass meeting is also necessary for the reason that in it the individual , who at first while becoming a supporter of a young movement, feels lonely and easily succumbs to the fear of being alone, for the first time gets the picture of a larger community, which in most people has a strengthening, encouraging effect.

The same man, within a company or a battalion, surrounded by all his comrades, would set out on an attack with a lighter heart than if left entirely on his own.

In the crowd he always feels somewhat sheltered, even if a thousand reasons actually argue against it.

But the community of the great demonstration not only strengthens the individual, it also unites and helps to create an esprit de corps. The man who is exposed to grave tribulations, as the first advocate of a new doctrine in his factory or workshop, absolutely needs that strengthening which lies in the conviction of being a member and fighter in a great comprehensive body.

And he obtains an impression of this body for the first time in the mass demonstration. When from his little workshop or big factory, in which he feels very small, he steps for the first time into a mass meeting and has thousands and thousands of people of the same opinions around him, when, as a SEEKER, (Als Suchender.' A Wagnerian phrase, which Hitler was apparently determined to use at all costs)

he is swept away by three or four thousand others into the mighty effect of suggestive intoxication and enthusiasm, when the visible success and agreement of thousands confirm to him the rightness of the new doctrine and for the first time arouse doubt in the truth of his previous conviction -

then he himself has succumbed to the magic influence of what we designate as 'mass suggestion.'

The will, the longing, and also the power of thousands are accumulated in every individual. The man who enters such a meeting doubting and wavering leaves it inwardly reinforced: he has become a link in the community.

The National Socialist movement must never forget this and in particular
it must never let itself be influenced by those bourgeois s who know everything better,
but who nevertheless have gambled away a great state including their own existence and the rule of their class.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: How did wineskins authors become leaders?

June 12 2012, 10:08 PM 

The forced CHANGE AGENTS truly did build on people like Gramsci or THE PSYCHOLOGY OF REVOLUTION BY GUSTAVE LE BON the direct PATTERNISM used by HITLER. "If you tell a long long enough the world will be forced to believe it. LU is loaded with Calvinism

"This was also the pattern of John Calvin.This last theory, known as that of predestination, was in Luther rather uncertain,

but was stated precisely by Calvin, who made it the very foundation of a doctrine to which the majority of Protestants are still subservient.

According to him: "From all eternity God has predestined certain men to be burned and others to be saved.'' Why this monstrous iniquity? Simply because "it is the will of God.''

Thus according to Calvin, who for that matter merely developed certain assertions of St. Augustine, an all-powerful God would amuse Himself by creating living beings simply in order to burn them during all eternity, without paying any heed to their acts or merits. It is marvellous that such revolting insanity could for such a length of time subjugate so many minds--marvellous that it does so still.[1]

[1] The doctrine of predestination is still taught in Protestant catechisms, as is proved by the following passage extracted from the last edition of an official catechism for which I sent to Edinburgh:

"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

"These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

"Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

"As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ; are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.''

The psychology of Calvin is not without affinity with that of Robespierre. Like the latter, the master of the pure truth,

he sent to death those who would not accept his doctrines. God, he stated, wishes "that one should put aside all humanity when it is a question of striving for his glory.''

The case of Calvin and his disciples shows

that matters which rationally are the most contradictory become perfectly reconciled in minds which are hypnotised by a belief.

In the eyes of rational logic, it seems impossible to base a morality upon the theory of predestination, since whatever they do men are sure of being either saved or damned.

However, Calvin had no difficulty in erecting a most severe morality upon this totally illogical basis.

Considering themselves the elect of God, his disciples were so swollen by pride and the sense of their own dignity that they felt obliged to serve as models in their conduct.

4. Propagation of the Reformation.

The new faith was propagated not by speech, still less by process of reasoning, but by the mechanism described in our preceding work:

that is, by the influence of affirmation, repetition, mental contagion, and prestige. At a much later date revolutionary ideas were spread over France in the same fashion.

Persecution, as we have already remarked, only favoured this propagation. Each execution led to fresh conversions, as was seen in the early years of the Christian Church. Anne Dubourg, Parliamentary councillor, condemned to be burned alive, marched to the stake exhorting the crowd to be converted. "His constancy,'' says a witness, "made more Protestants among the young men of the colleges than the books of Calvin.''

The masses GOOSE CLAP as you see from some of the "posters." That also applies to very bright people with doctorates in Bible and Theology and too many preachers who are worried about their "career path." They don't know that they have already taken the MARK for a "bowl of red beans." The result, naturally, is a lot of passed gas.

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Re: new wineskins

June 13 2012, 2:43 AM 

This from an engineer who tinks he knows more than he does. What a joke.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: new wineskins

June 13 2012, 4:29 AM 

Do you have a problem with Ken being an engineer? Brian, are you an engineer, too? Just wondering.

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(no login)

Re: new wineskins

June 13 2012, 12:00 PM 

Oddly, I don't see anything related to engineering in Ken's post. So when Person A dislikes Person B's posts, Person A trashes the other person's profession or occupation, because Person A doesn't have a leg to stand on and is highly frustrated. Now THAT's the real joke. happy.gif

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: new wineskins

June 13 2012, 12:25 PM 

The O Lites just loose their mind (again) when anyone NOT of their CRAFT just quotes the Bible. If you have a doctorate in New testament Christianity, bible or theology you are right up there with Phrenologists because it is a FABRICATED discipline.

However, if you are an BSEle, Honeywell gives you your first job involving Chemistry. Engineers don't write sermons: they are smart enough to find a Chemical Engineer and ask for help.

If you engineer parts of the Side Winder you are held accountable if it runs up YOUR tailpipe.

If an MD takes liberties about how to mix chemicals or test experience, he goes to the OUT basket.

An engineer has to read the WHOLE thought pattern.

"How to dismantle an Atomic Torpedo"

"Toss in a grinder and shred."

Oops, that was NOT step one.

BUT, says the wineskinners, it DID NOT say DON'T skip steps 1-9. And that is a fact.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: new wineskins

June 13 2012, 12:10 PM 

I took a look at the new wineskins web site and noted one of the items of interest was John's baptism. The website takes great care to say that John's baptism was for remission of sins. I once heard a non institutional preacher make the same claim. But then the message stops - so my question is where are the progressives (new wineskins) going with this? One can predict that they may be trying to justify Baptists or Christian Church baptism. There is no way to claim forgiveness of sin outside of the Gospel of christ and promote this idea as being obtained by study and prayer. Consider that the Lord is not the author of confusion.

I "think" that maybe the 120 disciples were the preserved because they had not bowed to Baal. These (I think) were the "offering" made ready for the day of Pentecost. Paul in Ephesus proves that after Pentecost that was not operative and cannot be used by the Baptists or "wannabes" in the church of Christ.

[linked image]

John was not in the "kingdom" or Church which began at Pentecost. Others want to make "two gospels" and deny that baptism was for Gentiles. However, they missed the Commission of Jesus which included ALL NATIONS: the kingdom was to spread out beginning in Jerusalem but there was not change.

Making disciples by teaching, baptizing and teaching "what Jesus commanded to be taught" began on Pentecost.

The promise was the remission of sins AND the gift of A holy spirit (re Scott and Campbell) which is A good conscience or consciousness or a co-perception (1 Peter 3:21) which Paul defined as the ability to look beyond the "veil" and read the Biblical Text with no power to define it further. (2 Cor 3).

The washing of water was with (INTO) the Word to make one a disciple. Of the Church:
Eph. 5:26WEB That he might sanctify and cleanse it
.....with the washing of water
.....[INTO] the word, (In Verbo, En, Eis)
.....Into Converto , epistles of a writer, to be occupied in, Into school

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
.....but according to his mercy he saved us, the washing of regeneration,
.....and renewing of the holy spirit [ours]

After we are SAVED by obedience of a direct command Christ adds us to His Church.

Our now-holy spirits are translated into a heavenly kingdom.

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us
.....from the power of darkness, [Judaism, Paganism or the progressives]
.....and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

John was never in the Kingdom: Jesus and everyone preached "the gospel of the kingdom" and not just the facts of Jesus' work.

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us,
.....what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

It is a fact that those who are "Just Jesus" and reject the gospels believe and teach that baptism was for the Jews-only and that we are saved by FAITH ONLY which means that they do NOT have A holy spirit or A good conscience and therefore cannot either READ or HEAR the text when it is PREACHED by being READ.

Jay Guin etal claim that FAITH is the work of God: they are simply ignorant of the Bible and Calvin who said that two direct operations are needed: Christ gave us the Scriptures and sent evangelists out to preach it.

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Ken Sublett
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Rubel Shelly and John York The Jesus Proposal

June 13 2012, 10:53 AM 

The Change Agents such as Rubel Shelly and John York bleed off books of psychology rather than the Bible: where Jesus sets us free to be INDIVIDUATED, the Leap was to manipulate people in large groups to develop a GROUP MENTALITY with the "Father" being the one with the right to Read, interpret and speak FOR the Community (Commune.}

Rubel Shelly and John York in The Jesus Proposal Instead we have a GROUP MENTALITY that asks, "What does this mean to US?"

Rubel Shelly and John York: While we still have access to reading as individuals, we stop asking, "What does this mean to me?"--as though there is such an isolated meaning. Instead we have a GROUP MENTALITY that asks, "What does this mean to US?"

Ricky: French-fried psycho-babble

January 3 2006, 10:07 AM

I can't believe that Ken is quoting Gustave LeBon. What were the "well known psychological laws" that gave rise to Reformation associated executions? Were they LeBon's own home-grown theories that he admitted were not even accepted by his colleagues when he wrote "The Psychology of Crowds" and "The Psychology of Socialism?"

The colleagues were the INTELLECTUAL LEADERS the dupes were called Human Material. The Willow Creek Pattern uses "assimilated" for the COMMUNE leaders. Others use the "baseball diamond" to show the Purpose Driven Cult into the "inner circuit."



General Characteristics of the Crowd

Whatever their origin, revolutions do not produce their full effects until they have penetrated the soul of the multitude. They therefore represent a consequence of the psychology of crowds.

Although I have studied collective psychology at length in another volume, I must here recall its principal laws.

Man, as part of a multitude, is a very different being from the same man as an isolated individual. His conscious individuality vanishes in the unconscious personality of the crowd.

Material contact is not absolutely necessary to produce in the individual the MENTALITY of the CROWD. Passions and sentiments, provoked by certain events, are often sufficient to create it.

The COLLECTIVE MIND, momentarily formed, represents a very special kind of aggregate. Its chief peculiarity is that it is entirely dominated by UNCONSCIOUS ELEMENTS, and is subject to a peculiar COLLECTIVE LOGIC.

Among the other characteristics of crowds, we must note their infinite credulity and exaggerated sensibility, their shortsightedness, and their incapacity to respond to the influences of reason.

Affirmation, contagion, repetition, and prestige constitute almost the only means of persuading them. Reality and experience have no effect upon them.

The multitude will admit anything; nothing is impossible in the eyes of the crowd.

By reason of the extreme sensibility of crowds, their sentiments, good or bad, are always exaggerated. This exaggeration increases still further in times of revolution. The least excitement will then lead them to act with the utmost fury. Their credulity, so great even in the normal state, is still further increased; the most improbable statements are accepted. Arthur Young relates that when he visited the springs near Clermont, at the time of the French Revolution, his guide was stopped by the people, who were persuaded that he had come by Order of the Queen to mine and blow up the town. The most horrible tales concerning the Royal Family were circulated, depicting it as a nest of ghouls and vampires.

These various characteristics show that man in the crowd descends to a very low degree in the scale of civilization. He becomes a savage, with all a savage's faults and qualities, with all his momentary violence, enthusiasm, and heroism. In the intellectual domain a crowd is always inferior to the isolated unit. In the moral and sentimental domain it may be his superior. A crowd will commit a crime as readily as an act of abnegation.

You should read Rubel Shelly's list of RACA words always associating the views of the Restoration Movement with being traditional, ROTTEN and DESTRUCTIVE. The ANTI-instrumental phrase appeared in sermons like a MANTRA. That is part of the POSTMODERN SCAM: you dissociate minds and drive them into schizophrenia by telling them how ROTTEN their OLD religion is. That exercises a PSYCHOLOGICAL THREAT so that NO ONE speaks outside of the COMMUNE as articulated in sermons.

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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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