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(Login mcc-torn)

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision"

June 28 2012, 8:49 AM 

Donnie, a lot has happened that you may have not seen. Around new year's they announced that Brent had been let go because the elders had decided to go in a different direction. Maybe he didn't like the instrumental path but that's just me speculating. Or maybe they just wanted somebody famous like Keith again. Right after that, they announced that George was the interim worship leader. Then after about 2 or 3 months they made another announcement that George's time as interim leader was over. Then it was just a few weeks later that the new instrumental "vision" came down.

Anyone who is interested can see the vision yourself. They posted the same video that was shown in church to the web site. At click on the Resources tab and then launch media player. Look for Vision presentation 4G. You can choose audio or video. If you like Apple, choose video because it could double as an ipad commercial.

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(no login)

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision"

June 28 2012, 12:50 PM 

Since Madison has opted to go the unscriptural, denominational route with instruments, I wonder how long it will be before Madison embraces other denominational trends, like prefabricated, scripted prayers, for example. The Catholics and various Protestant denominations have printed "prayer books" with scripted prayers for just about every conceivable occasion known to man. Such "prayers" often contain lofty, flowery language designed to gratify the senses; the idea is that whatever sounds really good and tickles the ears will please God. All people have to do is whip out the book and look up the "appropriate prayer." Some folks have such prayers memorized and can rattle them off without really paying much attention to what they're saying. The same scripted "prayers" are read or memorized for the same respective occasions year in and year out. That's known as "vain repetition," and it's not too far from the Catholics' "penance" of saying so many "Hail Marys" and "Our Fathers" over and over again. Scripted prayers either said over and over in succession or said for the same occasion(s) year after year constitute "vain repetitions."

"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him" (Matt 6:7-8 KJV).

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(no login)

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision"

November 16 2015, 12:44 PM 

Very good article by Wayne Jackson.


Why People Quit Church

by Wayne Jackson

Church leaders have long been interested in why so many drift away from faithful service to the Lord.

Jesus summarized the matter in his parable of the sower. The causes he listed are: the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of wealth, distracted desires for worldly things, and carnal pleasure (Matthew 13:22; Mark 4:18; Luke 8:14).

This list could be expanded from numerous other texts (e.g., the ingestion of false teaching [cf. Romans 16:17; 2 Thessalonians 3:6; Titus 3:10]), but for the moment this will suffice.

Several months ago, LifeWay Christian Resources, a Baptist-based group, did a survey of 469 adults who formerly were “church” people but had left their respective groups. The results of this study are interesting.

Why People Quit Church

Too Busy: Many of them quit church because they simply got too busy. Too busy to honor their Creator; too busy to serve him who died for them; too busy to go to heaven.

Family Responsibilities: Others faded away, they said, because family and home responsibilities prevented their continued connection with church.

Is not serving God the most important family and home responsibility? Is putting food in a child’s mouth and clothes on his back more crucial than nurturing his soul toward heaven? The failure to sort out one’s prime obligations is one of the most significant gauges of spiritual foolishness.

Church Leaders: A considerable number complained that they had become disenchanted with church leaders or members. This is what one might call the PTB syndrome (“passing the buck”). Some do not like the elders’ decisions. Others find the preaching boring. Then there is the complaint that the deacons don’t minister to their needs.

There also is the common gripe that they are not being included in the church’s activities. Of course, they never volunteer for service and usually complain when asked to do something.

Hypocrisy in the Church: Not a few charge that church members are judgmental and hypocritical, etc. Never mind that these are judging those whom they contend are judgmental. And they never boycott any place on the basis of hypocrisy except the church!

In more than a half-century of service to Christ, I cannot recall having seen a reprobate leave the fellowship of the church and take personal responsibility for his apostasy. He always plays the blame game: “It’s not my fault; they did it to me!”

Such rationalizations are hypocritical subterfuge on the part of dishonest people who refuse to acknowledge their own problems.

Organized Religion: A small number claim they left the church because they lost faith in organized religion. One supposes they prefer disorganized religion.

God does not condone confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33), and one is not allowed to improvise his own worship and service system (John 4:24; 17:17). Such autocratic, self-focused individuals have not the slightest understanding of what genuine Christianity is.

Of course, there are cases where people genuinely lose faith. Perhaps they were never grounded or they were disappointed when their expectations of God were more idealistic than informed.

I am familiar with a man who matriculated through two Christian schools and then preached the gospel for a number of years on a foreign mission field. Eventually he “soured,” and now he works vociferously to oppose Christianity in every conceivable way he can, denying even that Jesus Christ ever lived. It most likely is the reality that he failed personally and now seeks to rationalize his apostasy by directing his wrath toward the Son of God.

Such loss of faith is never justified. Let the patriarch Job be your teacher! One should join the man who exclaimed, “[H]elp my unbelief” (Mark 9:24), and seek assistance.

Major Life Changes: Some fall away because of changing circumstances in their lives. A divorce, for example, can devastate a person. He or she may feel an unjustified guilt because the marriage did not hold together. One may be immersed in shame because other families in the church seem stable.

Change in Job/Location: Others may experience a job move that sends them into an isolated area where there are no Christians. If one does not have the stability to survive in a community where there is no church, or if they cannot summon the courage to faithfully serve God alone, attempting to teach others, he or she would be far better off finding a new job that would facilitate Christian faithfulness. No job is worth the loss of one’s soul (Matthew 16:26).

The ultimate truth of the matter is this: there are no valid reasons for forsaking Christ—only lame excuses!

And Jesus made it very plain: excuses will carry no weight in the day of reckoning (see Luke 14:18ff).

Scripture references: Matthew 13:22; Mark 4:18; Luke 8:14; Romans 16:17; 2 Thessalonians 3:6; Titus 3:10; 1 Corinthians 14:33; John 4:24, 17:17; Mark 9:24; Matthew 16:26; Luke 14:18

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(no login)

"Salvation Issue"

June 13 2012, 6:01 PM 

It's one thing when a congregation realizes it has followed a doctrine that is not true to the New Testament and takes corrective action. Today, however, when a congregation changes its position about a doctrinal matter and announces that the change is not a "savation issue," it usually means that congregation is about to deviate significantly from what is written in the New Testament. That congregation "justifies" its actions by assuming that as long as the majority agrees the change will not impact salvation, then it must be right and God will accept it.

I don't recall Jesus ever saying anything like, "If ye love me, keep only those commandments that the majority of the congregation agree to follow and add whatever ye like to them if anything seems 'missing' from them."

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Rejoice and be glad!

June 13 2012, 7:52 PM 

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

MHC: 15:5-8 In the judgments God executes upon antichrist and his followers, he fulfils the prophecies and promises of his word. These angels are prepared for their work, clothed with pure and white linen, their breasts girded with golden girdles, representing the holiness, and righteousness, and excellence of these dealings with men. They are ministers of Divine justice, and do every thing in a pure and holy manner. They were armed with the wrath of God against his enemies. Even the meanest creature, when armed with the anger of God, will be too hard for any man in the world. The angels received the vials from one of the four living creatures, one of the ministers of the true church, as in answer to the prayers of the ministers and people of God. Antichrist could not be destroyed without a great shock to all the world, and even the people of God would be in trouble and confusion while the great work was doing. The greatest deliverances of the church are brought about by awful and astonishing steps of Providence; and the happy state of the true church will not begin till obstinate enemies shall be destroyed, and lukewarm or formal Christians are purified. Then, whatever is against Scripture being purged away, the whole church shall be spiritual, and the whole being brought to purity, unity, and spirituality, shall be firmly established.

Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple,
.....having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen,
.....and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

WES: 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple - As having received their instructions from the oracle of God himself. St. John saw them in heaven, verse 1, Rev 15:1 before they went into the temple. They appeared in habits like those the high priest wore when he went into the most holy place to consult the oracle. In this was the visible testimony of God's presence. Clothed in pure white linen - Linen is the habit of service and attendance. Pure - unspotted, unsullied. White - Or bright and shining, which implies much more than bare innocence. And having their breasts girt with golden girdles - In token of their high dignity and glorious rest.

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever

Rev. 15:8 And the temple was filled with
.....smoke from the glory of God, and from his power;

God SENDS the Wine to the Wineskinners and POURS IT OUT.:

kapnos metaph., Porph.Abst.1.47): prov., kapnou skia, [The Law] of things worth nothing, grammatn kapnoi learned trifles, E.Hipp.954

Kapn-eios (sc. ampelos), hê, vine. A. with smokecoloured grapes.

2586. kapnos, kap-nos´; of uncertain affinity; smoke: -- smoke.
2585. kapeleuo, kap-ale-yoo´-o; from kapelos (a huckster); to retail, i.e. (by implication) to adulterate (figuratively): corrupt.
kapno-mantis , eôs, ho, smoke-diviner,

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(no login)

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision"

June 14 2012, 12:10 AM 

Mr. Cruz,
in your post on 13 June at 3:27 your conclusion stated "Once, the brotherhood knows about what Madison is doing to achieve its goal of increased membership by whatever means, I wonder if certain churches or elders of other congregations will be inquiring or writing to Madison's leaders about this "endeavor." I know, I know about congregational autonomy. But this is not an "autonomy" issue. This is a New Testament church issue!!!"

You're right. It isn't about congregational's about following Jesus and you not going about like an old lady craving her gossip. You are acting the opposite of what Jesus showed us to do and be. You and all the rest here slander any brother or sister that doesn't agree to your ideology. I mentioned "your ideology" for it certainly isn't that of God. You slander the elders of the congregation where you attend. I would put your gossip levels against those of anyone. Do you not care where your soul is eventually going?

As the great John Watson Smith spoke of......comments welcome

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(no login)

Returning to the Dark Ages

June 14 2012, 3:38 AM 

It is interesting to see how the permissives (no, not progressives) have chosen to return to the controversies of the dark ages regarding adding pagan practices to Christian worship with almost the same dark ages arguments. The moderators of this blog site have a point in questioning where will you ever see it necessary to draw a line; after praise teams - choirs; for choirs - robes for choir and preacher; after that interpretive dance; etc. Since congregational autonomy is not being questioned, and what we know as Churches of Christ (capital "C") is merely a loose fellowship of like minded believers, you are welcome to the name for there is no patent on it. But for clarity perhaps you will consider appending the eponym with a parenthesis, such as Church of Christ (believing less every day).

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Returning to the Dark Ages

June 14 2012, 5:19 PM 


"Eponym" in parentheses -- that's exactly what change agents should be honestly doing as/when they misrepresent, discredit and badmouth the church of Christ of which they still claim to be members of.

Jay Guin, e.g., a change agent who happens to be an elder of the University Church of Christ in Tuscaloosa, AL and who wants to alter much of the NT-based beliefs and teachings in the church of Christ -- has he considered founding his own church from scratch? He could relocate and name his church with the eponym appended: "Church of Christ (Community Church-Transformed)." That would clarify "change" matters and issues, wouldn't it? But, of course, we do not know how many of the other elders of the University agree with Jay Guin's church-doctrine-modification initiatives.

I can think of another example of the use of the eponym -- this time it's about the Community Church in Hendersonville, TN. I wrote about this a few years ago. I'll repost the message as soon as a find it.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Risky Business: "It Is Not a Salvation Issue"

June 14 2012, 3:52 AM 

Anon [let's not confuse you with the original poster "B"], please identify yourself differently. You address me as "Mr. Cruz"; how may I address you?

I said: [1] "a New Testament church issue." You want me to say that [2] "it's about following Jesus." It appears that you're incapable of noting the difference. Let me help you:

(1) A "NT Testament church issue" simply means that our concern should be about the impact of one congregation within the fellowship or brotherhood, when said congregation begins to adhere to some NEW or NEWLY ACQUIRED teaching foreign to the New Testament, in order to achieve the goal of increased membership at any cost. [I can explain this further and in more detail, if you're interested.]

(2) That "it's about following Jesus" is fine. Why not? But this has nothing to do with our subject of discussion here -- concerning a church with a pre-existing anomaly called "division" that is about to complicate the same anomaly, now called "further division." What you speak of, "it's about following Jesus," is really about an individual Christian's responsibility. Can you initiate a thread by that title or subject?

The excuses to deviate from the topic being discussed, such as: (1) "it's about following Jesus"; (2) "you do not have Christian love"; and "you slander" ... are pretty mild compared to the change agents' despicable motto: "it is not a salvation issue."

Anon, "freedom of speech" is still practiced in this country, and you know it. Just wait when The Christian Chronicle finds out about the new Madison plan to keep the youth and increase its membership with instrumental music, and then reports it or gossips [your impression--and I like it better] about it.

Anon, I did not initiate the report: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision" -- someone else did it. Besides, it is not a gossip as it was announced to the congregation.

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(no login)

Re: Risky Business: "It Is Not a Salvation Issue"

June 14 2012, 4:09 AM 

Unfortunately, you are still defying your elders if you are a member of Madison. "Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple." - 1 Cor. 3:16-18, Paul, speaking of the church.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Risky Business: "It Is Not a Salvation Issue"

June 14 2012, 4:26 AM 

Defying the elders?

What about the elders defying God's authority? Did you know that the elders are to teach that which they've been taught [instead of teachings acquired from churches founded by men (and women)]? (I Tim. 3:2; II Tim. 2:24)

Did you read about division in the eldership itself in 2001? Please read the Timeline threads.

What about the passage you quoted applying to all Christians including you ... and me ... and the elders?

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(no login)

Re: Risky Business: "It Is Not a Salvation Issue"

June 14 2012, 8:25 AM 

If the elders decide to implement instrumental music, the change agents jump on that and insist that we "must not defy the elders." The change agents, thinking that elders are infallible, abuse the New Testament's admonition and would have everyone blindly follow elders who have chosen to defy the New Testament by adding more to what is written in the command to sing and make melody in the heart.

Christians should NOT obey rogue elders.

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(no login)

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision"

June 14 2012, 8:38 AM 

I think discerning readers can differentiate between the real "B" and an obvious impostor.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Musicators WILL NOT--CAN NOT read the Word of a Holy God

June 14 2012, 8:37 AM 

A holy spirit in our body

is OUR spirit made holy

What? know ye not that

For ye are bought with a price:

YOUR body

therefore glorify God in YOUR body,

is the temple of the [A] HolySpirit

and in YOUR spirit,

which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?1 Corinthians 3:19

which are Gods. 1Corinthians 3:20 ="#0000af"face="arial">

1Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Corinthians 3:13 Every mans work shall be made manifest:
..... for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire;
.....and the fire shall try every mans work of what sort it is.
1Corinthians 3:14 If any mans work abide which he hath built thereupon,
.....he shall receive a reward.
1Corinthians 3:15 If any mans work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:
.....but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God,
.....and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;
.....for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself.
.....If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world,
.....let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.
.....For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Corinthians 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
1Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

Sophia , Ion. -i, h, prop. A cleverness or skill in handicraft and art
in music and singing, in divination

True Sophia is the 'Spirit OF God.'

God HID Himself from the Sophist and Jesus WILL NOT PRAY for the Kosmos or World system

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Nov 19, 2014 1:32 AM

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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)

Gods wisdom

June 14 2012, 4:24 PM 

Consider the words of the preacher in Ecclesiastes 1 and 2. Church leaders who think problems of the world should take priority over spiritual warfare should consider the evaluation of all the works under the sun - "what is crooked cannot be made straight and what is lacking cannot be numbered" . I submit to you that we should stay on course. Its a spiritual war. We are to love God with all our being and not be inordinate lovers of own selves as mankind does so often. Instrumental music adds nothing to a worship other than demonstrating mans stubborn will.

Again in Ecclesiastes 2 the preacher states that wisdom excels folly as light excels darkness. Those who want sights and sounds of denominational proceedings are pandering to human desire. I assert they are walking in darkness and will continue to digress and err further and further. Someone said what they were really doing is worshiping the talents of men and women. I suggest that worship of almighty God is not a showcase for a few but a submission of will by all and our thanks to him. Proverbs 1 says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom not the fawning over the talented.

Comments Welcome

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Gods wisdom

June 17 2012, 9:35 PM 

Religious musicians have always been seen as parasites or robbers because they do no productive work. Furthermore, they have always said to be "drunk, perverted or just having fun: take your pick. Paul really said--in similar literature--"Don't get FLUTED down with Wine."

Ecc 2:8 KJV. ASV I gathered me also silver and gold,
and the peculiar treasure of kings and of the provinces:
I gat me men singers and women singers,
and the delights of the sons of men, [soft, effeminate]
as musical instruments, and that of all sorts.

Singers: H7891 through the idea of strolling minstrelsy); to sing:
H7788 shûr shoor A primitive root; properly to turn, that is, travel about (as a harlot or a merchant):go, sing. See also H7891 .

Men and women Singers:
H7705 shiddâh shid-dah' From H7703 ; a wife (as mistress of the house), concubine:X all sorts, musical instrument.
H7703 shâdad implication to ravage:destroy oppress, robber

Musical Instruments:
H7705 shiddâh shid-dah' From H7703 ; a wife (as mistress of the house):X all sorts, musical instrument.

Concubines and Millers (grinders) did double duty as concubines and instrument players.

Guess that some people just cannot learn from reading the clear text.

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(no login)

So Right

June 17 2012, 9:28 AM 

"I think discerning readers can differentiate between the real "B" and an obvious impostor."

Who is B anyways? No name....therefore no idea to who I am. I must be ashamed of who I am. My real name has to be kept secret because something must have been done in the past to set off a sequence of events to protect my identity.
I am only and merely....just B. Therefore I am who I am.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: So Right

June 17 2012, 2:03 PM 


Please stop it. Real "B": no need to respond to Dave as I have already explained it. None of this will be approved anymore.

OK, I think Madison is about to go "your" way.

No comments from you? I am surprised! Thought you might say: "I told you so." But again, we'd been expecting this.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision"

June 24 2012, 11:56 AM 

[linked image]

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ken sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Speaking in tongues (lauguages) excludes singing in tongue.

June 24 2012, 9:16 PM 

The clickable links to this table is at

[linked image]

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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