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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.68.241

Re: Bootlegging the Bootleggers

September 1 2012, 11:28 AM 

"B" has become quite comfortable speaking for God where God has not spoken. Perhaps his conscience has become comfortably numb.


1 Timothy 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils, 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their conscience seared

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.13.119

Re: Bootlegging the Bootleggers

September 1 2012, 1:18 PM 

Many people do not like what is written in the New Testament, especially if it does not satisfy their personal desires, so when Bible-believers cite what is written therein, the scoffers smear those believers as "speaking for God." Take the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command, for instance. Racnor evidently doesn't believe it or doesn't follow it, so he smears B as "speaking for God" when B cites it as a scriptural reason for not having instrumental music. Racnor would have God list every conceivable "Thou shalt not" for every possible issue before Racnor would refrain from implementing something. That is, Racnor would demand that God say, "Thou shalt not have instrumental music" before he would ever dream of putting instruments away.

God need not explicitly mention an item or practice by name for it to be forbidden, because the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command covers that. When God explictly issues a directive and specifies what is to be done therein, we do not have the liberty to add to or take from that directive. Since God specifies vocal music, then we are not at liberty to add other kinds of music, such as instrumental music.

That's simply the way things are, but Racnor has the "freedom of choice" to defy God's explicit directive.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.13.119

Re: Bootlegging the Bootleggers

September 1 2012, 2:22 PM 

It is evidently Racnor's numb conscience that prompts him to fail to recognize the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command.

 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.68.241

Re: Bootlegging the Bootleggers

September 1 2012, 2:54 PM 

"B", sorry if I hit a nerve. I'm sure it was your last one. Moving on....... Vocal harmony is a style of vocal music. It is possible to just sing without harmony?

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.13.119

Re: Bootlegging the Bootleggers

September 1 2012, 3:29 PM 

Racnor's "aim" would have to be much more accurate to hit any nerve. Since the New Testament does not address singing in unison or in harmony, then man is at liberty to sing either way. We are not at liberty to add instrumental music to the vocal music that the New Testament specifies. Racnor should remember the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command when the urgent cravings come upon him to use instrumental music.

 
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Scripture
(no login)
98.87.31.57

Explain these verses

September 1 2012, 11:19 PM 

Racnor, how would you apply the following verses to this CM site?

1 Tim. 1:3-10 ASV

3As I exhorted thee to tarry at Ephesus, when I was going into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge certain men not to teach a different doctrine, 4neither to give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questionings, rather than a dispensation of God which is in faith;'so do I now . 5But the end of the charge is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience and faith unfeigned: 6from which things some having swerved have turned aside unto vain talking; 7desiring to be teachers of the law, though they understand neither what they say, nor whereof they confidently affirm.

8But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully, 9as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10for fornicators, for abusers of themselves with men, for menstealers, for liars, for false swearers, and if there be any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine; 11according to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.


 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.128.116

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

August 31 2012, 12:37 PM 

The direct command is to "Use ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH to teach that which is written for our learning which Paul defines as Scripture. Because there is absolutely NO MUSIC possible in SPEAKING that which is written WITHOUT MEASURE or METRON: meter. That is Why Jesus is the personified WORD or LOGOS: Logos is defined to specificially EXCLUDE Jewish fables, poetry or music. SPEAK is exclusive and if you can take the liberty to SANG in mind-altering harmony then simple simons can say that you STILL sang even if you CLANGE.

IT'S JUST THIS SIMPLE: ADULTS DO NOT MAKE MUSIC WHEN JESUS (The Holy Spirit and ONLY Teacher and Mediator) appears WHEN the Elders "Teach that which has been taught."

Again, you have to be faithful to the Word of God: there is not a command, example or remote inference that any godly people congregated for singing with or without instruments. In fact, The Church of Christ (the Rock) ordained the Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness.

INCLUSIVE of Rest, reading and rehearsing the Word of God.
EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing or high sounding rhetoric: Jesus called them hypocrites.
There was never any singing or praise service in the synagogue because the PURPOSE was:

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath
.....in every city (groups as small as 10 families Ex
.....them that preach him,
.....being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Ex. 18:20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws,
.....and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk,
.....and the work that they must do.

caermna
A. Objectively, sacredness, sanctity sanctitas regum, et caerimonia deorum. legationis
B. [select] Subjectively, a holy dread, awe, reverence, veneration of the Deity (external; while religio has regard both to internal and external reverence for God

ostendo , A. In gen., to show, disclose, exhibit, manifest: ille dies cum glori maxim sese nobis ostendat, 2. Transf.: vocem, to make heard, Phaedr. 1, 13, 9.
1. To show, express, indicate by speech or signs; to give to understand, to declare, say, tell, make known, etc. (syn.: indico, declaro, significo). :

Ex. 18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide
tout of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness;
.....and place such over them, to be
.....rulers of thousands,
.....and rulers of hundreds,
.....rulers of fifties, and
.....rulers of tens:

When SINGING as ACT was imposed as late as ad 373 and SPLIT the east and west churches, why would we think that those great scholars NEVER thought of anything TUNEFUL when you GATHER YOURSELVES to Read and Discuss the Word.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.128.116

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

August 31 2012, 1:00 PM 

Babylonian Tablets proves that people knew how to MANIPULATE people with "god sounds."

It's perfectly clear to Nimrod--the mighty hunter AGAINST God and modern science as reported in Time Magazine.

http://www.piney.com/MuTimeBrain.html

It's hard to exaggerate the effect music can have on the human brain. A mere snippet of song from the past can trigger memories as vivid as anything Proust experienced from the aroma of his petite madeleine.

A tune can induce emotions ranging from unabashed joy to deep sorrow and can drive listeners into states of patriotic fervor or religious frenzy-- to say nothing of its legendary ability to soothe the savage beast.

Yet in spite of music's remarkable influence on the human psyche, scientists have spent little time attempting to understand why it possesses such potency.

"We tend to think of music as an art or a cultural attribute," notes Robert Zatorre, a neuroscientist at McGill University in Montreal,

"but it is a complex human behavior that is as worthy of scientific study as any other."

That's why Zatorre helped organize a conference, "The Biological Foundations of Music," sponsored last week by the New York Academy of Sciences, at which experts in disciplines ranging from neuroscience and neurology to brain imaging and psychology met to exchange notes about what's known--and, more important, what remains to be learned--in this small but growing field.

What seems clear is that the ability to experience and react to music is deeply embedded in the biology of the nervous system.

While music tends to be processed mostly in the right hemisphere(FEMININE) of the brain, no single set of cells is devoted to the task

Different networks of neurons are activated, depending on whether a person is listening to music or playing an instrument, and whether or not the music involves lyrics.

Specific brain disorders can affect the perception of music in very specific ways. Experiments done on epileptics decades ago showed that stimulating certain areas of the temporal lobe on both sides of the brain awakened "musical memories"--vivid re-creations of melodies that the patients had heard years earlier.

Lesions in the temporal lobe can result in so-called musicogenic epilepsy, an extremely rare form of the disorder in which seizures are triggered by the sound of music. Autism offers an even greater puzzle. People with this condition are mentally deficient, yet most are proficient musicians; some are "musical savants" possessed of extraordinary talent.

The opposite is true of the less than 1% of the population who suffer from amusia, or true tone deafness. They literally cannot recognize a melody, let alone tell two of them apart, and they are incapable of repeating a song (although they think they are doing it correctly). Even simple, familiar tunes such as Frere Jacques and Happy Birthday are mystifying to amusics, but when the lyrics are spoken rather than sung, amusics are able to recognize the song immediately.

"This goes way beyond an inability to carry a tune," observes psychologist Isabelle Peretz of the University of Montreal. "They can't dance, and they can't tell the difference between consonance [harmony] and dissonance either.

They all appear to have been born without the wiring necessary to process music." Intriguingly, people with amusia show no overt signs of brain damage or short-term-memory impairment, and magnetic-resonance-imaging scans of their brains look normal.

There is evidently no way to help these unfortunate folks (though, admittedly, they don't know what they're missing).But for instrumentalists, at least, music can evidently trigger physical changes in the brain's wiring.

By measuring faint magnetic fields emitted by the brains of professional musicians, a team led by Christo Pantev of the University of Muenster's Institute of Experimental Audiology in Germany has shown that intensive practice of an instrument leads to discernible enlargement of parts of the cerebral cortex, the layer of gray matter most closely associated with higher brain function.

As for music's emotional impact, there is some indication that music can affect levels of various hormones,

including cortisol (involved in arousal and stress),

Consider the following three types of damage that takes place in our bodies under exposure to loud volume.

First, loud volume slows down our ability to memorize and do other brain functions by constricting the flow of blood to the brain. In the words of Dr. Arnold Scheivel, professor of medicine at UCLA and an expert on brain growth, "If there is a bottom line, it is that no neuron is healthier than the capillary that supplies it.

We have a very strong feeling that in the capillary supply system is the story of the maintenance or slow decline of the brain." How does volume effect blood supply? The blood vessels undergo a narrowing of caliber in the presence of loud sound. This narrowing decreases the flow of blood to the different parts of the body, including the mind. A person studying under the influence of loud music has a decrease in the amount of blood flowing to the brain. This makes it more difficult to memorize and to understand their studies.

Second, loud music can cause a form of schizophrenia. When a person is exposed to high level sound, a chemical is formed in the brain that is normally found in schizophrenia patients in mental institutions. A music therapist, investigating the effects of loud music, gave an emotional stability test to 240 teenagers while they listened to music.

A psychologist, who was unaware of how it was given, examined the results and determined that the test had been given in a mental institution.

Martin Polo, the director of Audio Visual Services at UCLA and noise consultant for the aerospace industry and related technologies writes, "Lastly, the presence of continued exposure to high level sound can trigger psychopathological impacts on individuals."

These impacts can range from depressions noted among females during the menstrual period to actual presence in the brain of chemicals normally found in schizophrenia and psychosis. There are a number of other interesting reaction to the presence of high level sound which involve the brain, including interference with vision.

Third, loud music can cause ulcers. When susceptible individuals are exposed to loud sound over a period of time, certain stomach functions are disrupted and an increase of hydrochloric acid is released, causing ulceration of the stomach. Martin Polon of UCLA writes, "The continuing exposure to high energy sound creates a stress reaction in the body that significantly involves the gastrointestinal system. Certain stomach functions are disrupted by abnormal contractions of the abdominal area, and increased infusion of hydrochloric acid causing dyspepsia. Recurring activation of this syndrome will lead to peptic ulceration in susceptible individuals.


ORGANUM or "After the Pipe Organ" may be more damaging than using instruments since the "audience" is pretty well dummed. MOST congregational seeks to be LOUD, Musically CORRECT, and the PARTS enter into combat to make their PART stand out.

A Disciple of Christ commanded to teach and observe WHAT HE commanded should never put SILENCE above a command which cannot be misunderstood. Jesus SPOKE or Cantillated the YEARLY halal and went out.

It really could matter less if you intend to violate the command to TEACH THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING

Congregational singing, when the NACC and JUBILEEATORS such as Flat, Shelly etal, almost ceased when their disciples scrapped the song books and bought Howard's (Vineyard) PRAISE BOOK. We had an expert musician from a college who taught us to ROCK the beat by JUMPING over the bar and hitting with a thud. Undoubtedly, even the so-called conservative preachers made School of Christ into WORSHIP ONLY which they define out of the Pagan Song Books and which James repudates as contrary to PURE religion.




    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.128.116 on Aug 31, 2012 1:10 PM


 
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ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.64.206

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 1 2012, 2:37 PM 

[linked image]

 
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ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.64.206

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 1 2012, 4:07 PM 

There is no Biblical text (that which is commanded) which can be sung in any kind of harmony. That would be like four preachers preaching IN PARTS because the commands to the elders is to "teach that which has been taught." The method from the Church of Christ in the wilderness oneward was to PREACH the Word by READING the Word

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Romans 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There was no MUSIC ever never in the church until Calvin permitted radically REWRITTEN Psalms to be sung in unison only:

"One of the developments in which Beza was of great assistance was in Reformed psalmody. Zwingli had opposed music in public worship and it was a century or so after his death before the Reformed Churches in which his influence was strong departed from that precedent.

Calvin did not go as far as Zwingli, but confined the use of music to congregational singing in UNISON of metrical versions of the Psalms and Canticles." (Latourette, p. 760).

"During Luther's time, congregational chorales were performed in the service without accompaniment. They were most often sung with the choir in UNISON, and occasionally the congregation would sing the melody while the choir sang a simple polyphonic harmonization. However, the pipe organ was never used to accompany hymns. The general view of Luther toward the organ was not at all enthusiastic because of its "primitive" nature (mean-tone tuning).

The pipe organ was used to preludize to give the initial pitch to the priest and choir. And it was used with chorales in alternation with the choir, one verse played by the organ and the next sung.

"It is that in UNISON and UNITY they might glorify God the Father... in the background lurks the thought of the prejudice incurred for the final end to be promoted by the church when the fellowship of the saints is marred by suspicions and dissensions and in this case particularly by the arrogance of the strong and the stumbling of the weak. No consideration could enforce the exhortation more strongly than to be reminded of the glory of God as the controlling purpose of all our attitudes and actions." (Murray, John, Romans, p. 201, Eerdmans).

Swiss, and later, French, English, and Scottish Calvinism promoted the singing of metrical translations of the psalter (see psalmody), austerely set for unaccompanied UNISON singing. English and Scottish Protestantism admitted only the singing of psalms. English metrical psalms were set to tunes adapted from the French and Genevan psalters. These were fairly complex melodies written on French metres. The English psalter used only a few metres, and the custom of singing each psalm to its proper tune was soon replaced by the use of a few common tunes. The common metre 8, 6, 8, 6 (the numbers give the number of syllables in each line), a form of English ballad metre, remains the archetypal English hymn metre.Kenneth Latourette, A History of Christianity, p. 760).

"Sometimes religion produces suggestive rituals shared by a community to create an atmosphere useful for uplifting one's thoughts and coming to one's senses. There are those who cannot do without such forms of worship. Where, however, the form takes the place of meditation, or conditions it; where human words prevail over the Spirit.. then we are no longer in the presence of true religion.

"The one who uses colours and sounds and forms and movements and other gifts of God under the illusion of creating a stairway to heaven out of his own resources can, even involuntarily and in good faith, be raising an invisible barrier between humanity and God himself. (Davide Melodia, The Lord of Silence)

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 2 2012, 11:55 PM 

William Crump said "We are not at liberty to add instrumental music to the vocal music that the New Testament specifies."

If the Scriptures compel us to sing, then whether we use an instrument isn't the issue. Will the instrument keep us from singing? No. Will the instrument aid the singing? Yes. Will the instrument keep us from fulfilling the Word of God, which asks us to sing? No.

Good time here to tell the tale us that since God doesn't tell us to not use cocaine, then it is ok. You guys quit using that one. Other than making you look like you didn't have any idea of what you were talking about, why did you stop using that line?

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 3 2012, 12:10 AM 

Dave,

Do you feel insecure about claiming your posts?

Inanimate musical objects do not sing. They do not aid my singing. Instead, they make me wanna dance. happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif In many instances, congregants quit singing when your type of music begins. I could be wrong. Maybe, dancing aids your singing, too.

Have you done your research how that music and dancing are good friends? They go together well. They might do something to the nerve endings and make you feel erotic. Would you be in favor of dancing in the assembly, in addition to the playing of musical devices? Just wondering.

 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.68.241

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 3 2012, 11:55 AM 



You have to remember that not everyone's clock speed is the same. Some people are slower to process than others. I hope "B" will someday process the fact "speaking for God where God has NOT spoken" is not a good thing. Until then, it will be like the cocaine fiasco, we will just have to endure until "B" repents. JMHO.

happy.gif

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 3 2012, 1:45 AM 

I would be in favor of you not going to a church (Madison) where all you do is criticize and ridicule.
Does William Crump feel insecure by using B as an alias?


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 3 2012, 11:48 AM 

David Fields,

I asked you first.

Meanwhile I can help you answer my questions: David, king of Israel and a skilled musician -- his nudity and deep love for musical instruments and dancing. It is a known fact: that type of music and dancing are inseparable in many cases. There are churches out there in the denominational world who do instrumental music and "interpretive" dancing while congregating.

Congregations of the church of Christ, including those in the first century (Philippi, Corinth, Ephesus, Thessalonica, etc.) assembled to be enriched and indwelt with the word of Christ and NOT be entertained. So have churches of Christ through the centuries, including 99.9% of churches of Christ in the 21st century.

The few congregations that have succumbed to the "holy entertainment" experience per the change agents' agenda for the church of Christ Jesus to be just "like the other denomiNATIONS" are now part of the Community Church Movement -- admit it or not.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.7.92

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 3 2012, 3:27 PM 

Dave and many other change agents do not subscribe to the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command. If they had their way, that command would be removed from future printings of the Bible and replaced with the man-made philosophy of "God didn't say not to." In other words, they would rewrite the Bible to suit their worldly, personal preferences and practices.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.42.38

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 3 2012, 4:56 PM 

Donnie Cruz,
I asked you second. I don't really wonder why you cover for William Crump in the manner that you do. You and him are a lot alike. You have an agenda to protect a tradition. Unfortunately, you want to claim these traditions of men, to be the same as those of God. Your abuse Scriptures and spout opinion to make these claims. You can make that claim until our Savior returns.....

Hey Donnie, you said earlier that music makes you want to dance. I can understand that.....you seem to want to follow the feelings of your heart instead of the paths of God.

Go ahead and put down King David, as we see in Scriptures that the lineage of our Savior runs through him.

1 Chronicles 29
26 David son of Jesse was king over all Israel. 27 He ruled over Israel forty yearsseven in Hebron and thirty-three in Jerusalem. 28 He died at a good old age, having enjoyed long life, wealth and honor. His son Solomon succeeded him as king.

29 As for the events of King Davids reign, from beginning to end, they are written in the records of Samuel the seer, the records of Nathan the prophet and the records of Gad the seer, 30 together with the details of his reign and power, and the circumstances that surrounded him and Israel and the kingdoms of all the other lands.

2 Samuel 7
14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men, with floggings inflicted by human hands. 15 But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever.

Donnie, you take your cheap shots at our servant David. We all must stand before God and give him answers. You going to call him a nudist and dancer before God?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.83.202

David was the secular Type: Jesus was the Spiritual Antitype

September 3 2012, 5:26 PM 

[linked image]

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.247.10

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 3 2012, 7:01 PM 

I wonder why Dave and other change agents keep fixating on what King David did as a basis for justifying instrumental music in Christian worship. Dave needs to be reminded that the gold standard for Christian worship and living is found in the teachings of Christ and His apostles in the New Testament. Christians are to emulate Christ, Who is Holy and divine, not King David, who was a mere mortal. BTW, if we're supposed to emulate David, as the change agents would have us do, then we would also commit adultery just as David did with Bathsheba and offer burnt sacrifices just as David did. So we see how ridiculous the change agents' logic is. Christians will be judged on the basis of Christ and the New Covenant, not on the basis of the Old Covenant and King David's actions.

 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.68.241

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 4 2012, 5:16 PM 

"B" by your logic you would also do as Saul did and bash Christians? Didn't think so.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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