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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Dave Fields' Role Model -- Nudist, Instrumental Music Lover, Dancer

September 3 2012, 11:45 PM 

Dave,

Besides, King David offered burnt offerings. Remember that!

It's good to quote Scripture to make a point, as you did II Samuel 7. The only problem is that you completely [intentionally?] missed the chapter preceding. So, here it is -- from II Samuel 6:


[14] And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

[15] So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.

[16] And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

[17] And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.

[18] And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts.

[19] And he dealt among all the people, even among the whole multitude of Israel, as well to the women as men, to every one a cake of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine. So all the people departed every one to his house.

[20] Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!

[21] And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.

[22] And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.

[23] Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.


 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.42.38

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 4 2012, 9:16 AM 

Someone once said..."Christians will be judged on the basis of Christ and the New Covenant, not on the basis of the Old Covenant and King David's actions.

Matthew 5
17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Some people, as the one who was quoted above, seems to want to ignore our Lord's Words in the OT. We live by the NT covenant of our Savior Jesus Christ. We use the OT as a guide and a PATTERN, a pattern on how to please God. There was a pattern by David to use instruments. However, another pattern or practice we see in the OT, is burnt sacrifices. We don't use burnt sacrifices today, as many here has lauded that we should do if we use ANY of the OTs' patterns and/or examples. Those that have suggested that we have to use burnt sacrifices if ANY of the OT is used as a guide or pattern, spit in the very face of God when they do. They belittle the very sacrifice of Christ, which did away with all of burnt offerings used in the OT. In the NT we see the following....
"9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God."

Just because we don't see instruments of music being used in the NT that is no reason to add to the Word of God and declare them sinful.

Do we follow ALL the teachings of the NT? Obviously not....seems we have a double standard here. The double standard was invoked many many years ago by legalists to safeguard their traditions that they so much adore.

Hey Donnie,you quoted Scripture from II Samuel 6 verse 23.
And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.

Why do you believe that this happened?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.79.192

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 4 2012, 10:59 AM 

This is part of the fulfillment of Israel being TURNED OVER to worship the starry host because of their musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.

And as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal Sauls daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord; and she despised him in her heart. 2 Samuel 6:16

David's PLAY is identical to
the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai and Samson being forced to GRIND
(not wheat) and to PLAY or SPORT before Dagon.

Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day,who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself 2 Samuel 6:20

And David said unto Michal, It was before the Lord [The ARK], which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the Lord, over Israel: therefore will I play before the Lord. 2 Samuel 6:21

And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour. 2 Samuel 6:22

Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.2 Samuel 6:23

Maybe Michal was so disgusted by this LUDO PLAY (quite vile says David) that she refussed to let David touch her.

Otherwise, you must grasp that David saw this as a threat and made SURE that all of Saul's descendants--except one helpless cripple--were put to death: one was given up for HUMAN SACRIFICE.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.205.97

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 4 2012, 11:58 AM 

I guess we'll again have to remind Dave of Scripture:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Col. 2:13-14 KJV).

Christ nailed the Old Law and all of its ordinances, rituals, and sacrifices to the cross. Since Christ fulfilled the Old Law, Christians no longer practice it. Christians follow the PATTERN of the New Covenant, the teachings of Christ and His apostles, as written in the New Testament. Yet those still bent on satisfying their worldly desires, like having instrumental music in worship, will turn to the Old Testament and cite Psalm 150 or 2 Chron. 29. BTW, the latter chapter also describes burnt offerings with musical accompaniment. So if Dave says we are to follow the Old Covenant as well as the New, then he needs to start burning sacrifices. He cannot be selective; if he justifies instrumental music based on the Old Testament, then he must also include the sacrifices and everything else under the Old Covenant.

More reminders for Dave:

"For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God" (Heb. 7:19 KJV).

"By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament" (Heb. 7:22 KJV).

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second" (Heb. 8:6-7 KJV).

The New Testament tells us that the Old Covenant had faults and therefore was not perfect; Christ and the New Covenant are faultless and perfect. Those who insist on following the Old Testament (for purposes of satisfying their worldly desires for instrumental music) follow a FAULTY covenant.

Just as we cannot serve two masters (Matt. 6:24), we also cannot serve two covenants.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.42.38

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 4 2012, 3:07 PM 

Actually, Ken, I am glad that you answered it before Donnie. This, again, shows that where your mind is....it shows you how you can pretty much conjure up any fairytale to suit your needs and your opinons. Michal was cursed because she spoke against David. Plain and simple

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.83.202

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 4 2012, 6:55 PM 


Speaking of Fairy Tails:

Then you ARE BOUND to defend David in having ALL of Saul's bloodline SLAUGHTERED including one being offered as human sacrifice.

"Part of the deal was for David to receive Michal, Saul's daughter and David's first wife. Michal's tearful parting from her own husband is described with great pathos (II Sam. 3:12-15). Governed chiefly by cold political calculation, David sought to establish a claim upon Saul's throne by taking Michal into his harem. Saul's male descendants were either liquidated in typical oriental style or put under careful custody (II Sam. 21:1-14). At the age of thirty-seven, David had become unchallenged ruler of all Israel." (Anderson, p. 178)

"Wearing a linen ephod, David once performed an ecstatic dance before the ark of the Lord. From the fact that his wife Michal chided him for having uncovered himself before his servant's handmaidens (2 Sam. 6:20), it seems likely that the king's exhibition was vulgar and revealing. Apparently as a retaliation for her scolding, David fathered no children by Michal (2 Sam. 6:23)" (Garrison, p. 31-32)


[linked image]

"At the end of David's days his sons were engaged in intrigue and treachery over the succession to the throne...Though still surrounded by the glories and wealth of the state he had created, the old man David described in I Kings 1-2 was a pathetic, broken-hearted, effete figure who, in vain, sought to warm himself at the dead embers of his former lusts (I Kings 1:1-4). In Solomon, born of the fateful marriage with Bathsheba, the nemesis continued until the United Kingdom was split in two." (Anderson, p. 185).

[linked image]

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 4 2012, 10:16 PM 

"Apparently as a retaliation for her scolding, David fathered no children by Michal (2 Sam. 6:23)" (Garrison, p. 31-32)"

Didn't I say the same thing? Michal was cursed because she spoke against David. Can you imagine Michal's life? She couldn't have any children by David.....and obviously anyone else. Thanks, Ken, for the support from the commentary.

Another commentary said..."Though still surrounded by the glories and wealth of the state he had created, the old man David described in I Kings 1-2 was pathetic, broken-hearted, effete figure who..."

Believe the commentary (a man's opinion) that Ken presented or Scripture where God speaks to David...
2 Samuel 7
14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men, with floggings inflicted by human hands. 15 BUT MY LOVE WILL NEVER BE TAKEN FROM HIM, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom WILL ENDURE FOREVER before me; your throne WILL BE ESTABLISHED FOREVER.

Hence the offspring of David being Jesus!

Hey, don't get mad with me, you guys make it easy!

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.242.64

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 5 2012, 1:17 AM 

It's far better to follow the example and teachings of Jesus, who was perfect and sinless, than to follow the example of David, who committed adultery with Bathsheba and then arranged to have her husband, Uriah, killed in battle, as if plotting a man's death would negate the adultery. That's really LOW-DOWN!

 
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Scripture
(no login)
74.179.45.94

David, a Contradiction, but better than Solomon

September 5 2012, 10:20 AM 

David represented the hopes and future or the Jewish nation (and of Christianity) as Anonymous points out. The hope of David is realized in Jesus Christ, also listed, but Jesus replaced the earthly kingdom of Israel with the spiritual kingdom.

David is rightly criticized for his debauchery, and some extent for his militarism. His militarism and the spilling of blood prevented him from building the temple, which was left to Solomon.

The fulfilment of the prophecy of Lord God concerning the scourge of a human king made to Samuel, that "they had rejected me" as their king, was fulfilled in Solomon, who taxed and conscripted the citizens of Israel, while himself living a life of self-indulgence, marrying wives for political advantage with other nations, and allowing this wide culture of wives to begin the pagan religions in Israel's midst.

All in all, three kings at minimum are praised in the Hebrew Scriptures: David, Hezekiah, and Josiah. Each of these kings have the following in common. They elevated God above the pagan religions, and although flawed especially in David's case, rose above their adversities toward the grace of God. Faith in God, as witnessed by their singular devotion to God, apparently overcame obvious flaws.

David in his sins and in his faith was a gigantic building block for the kingdom that was to come.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.129.106

Re: David, a Contradiction, but better than Solomon

September 5 2012, 11:08 AM 

All in all, three kings at minimum are praised in the Hebrew Scriptures: David, Hezekiah, and Josiah. Each of these kings have the following in common. They elevated God above the pagan religions, and although flawed especially in David's case, rose above their adversities toward the grace of God. Faith in God, as witnessed by their singular devotion to God, apparently overcame obvious flaws.

2Chronicles 17:3 And the LORD was with Jehoshaphat, because he walked in the first ways of his father David, and sought not unto Baalim;

David was never an idolater and that is why his census which brought a plague on the nation was finally stopped when God granted him a TENT at a Jebusite High place as a FAVOR rather than letting him be killed. The Bible and the Jewish Encyclopedia proves that the Civil-Military-Priestly complex worshipped the STARS and also SERPENTS to some extent.

Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days,
and offered sacrifice unto the idol,
and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

Euphrain , Ep. euphr-, fut. Att.155.12, Pi.I.7(6).3
Pind. I. 6 Just as we mix the second bowl of wine when the men's symposium is flourishing, here is the second song of the Muses for Lampon's children and their athletic victories: first in Nemea, Zeus, in your honor they received the choicest of garlands,

Their PLAY which was identical to David's PLAYING was singing, playing, dancing, eating and "finding favor with the servent girls."

God abandoned the nation to the worship of the Starry Host and assigned the Jacob-cursed tribe of Levi to operate that system.

Acts 7:42 Then God turned,
and gave them up to worship the host of heaven;
as it is written in the book of the prophets,
O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts
and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness,
as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should
make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
Acts 7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles,
whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
Acts 7:46 Who found favour before God,
and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
But Solomon built him an house. Acts 7:47

Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Acts 7:48

Acts 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool:
what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Acts 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears,
ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Besides, Samuel was the first writing prophet and proved that demanding a king invited God to carry out the captivity and death sentence imposed because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.





 
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Anonymous
(no login)
75.89.78.48

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 5 2012, 10:36 AM 

I am not sure of your point, but Jesus took the House of David in a completely different direction than where King David was taking his followers. Jesus and his example of worship to God, was rejected while he was on earth and it continues to be rejected today. It is truly a sad commentary if you are suggesting that Jesus was on earth to validate the lifestyle of King David.

I understand why you think that, I graduated from ACU also.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.129.106

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 5 2012, 11:19 AM 

David THOUGHT that God promised him a HOUSE but God promised him a FAMILY.

Since God sentenced the nation to be sent beyond Babylon because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai, and the Spirit OF Christ in the prophets denied that God had commanded sacrifices or burnt offerings, and Stephen gets murdered for denying the status of the Jewish leaders and their temple, and God permissively had Herod's Temple destroyed, and since Paul leap-frogs the Law of Moses and the changed laws of the Monarchy and teaches the Spiritual Covenant God in Christ made to Abraham, it is a mistake to find any PATTERNISM for the Qahal, Synagogue or Church of Christ in the Wilderness in the Scribal records of the abandoned Monarchy even if there were rare men who did not promote idolatry.

The exception made for starving David proves the rule that he or a Levite prophesying (soothsaying) with instruments was to be executed for coming near or into any holy thing or place.

"Worship teams" with or with real instruments CLAIM that God commanded them to follow the Levite pattern to "lead the audience into the presence of God.

The Christian system is the ANTITHESIS of the System of Monarchy.

 
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Scripture
(no login)
74.179.45.94

Monarchy and the Christian Kingdom

September 5 2012, 11:50 AM 

Ken wrote "The Christian system is the ANTITHESIS of the System of Monarchy." Exactly.

The kingdom of God is qualitatively different from the kingdom of men and women.

The sermon on the mount shows this conclusively.

Anonymous is also correct that the gospel is totally different from the Hebrew scripture notion of "inheriting the land of promise." Our land of promise is not earthly but heavenly. Our emphasis is on inward wealth, not the prosperity gospel.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.129.106

Re: Monarchy and the Christian Kingdom

September 5 2012, 12:19 PM 

The history of the Hebrew people is much like that of all nations: the Civil-Military conduct national sacrifices but the "REST" quarantined the godly people to their local area, and the developing synagogue was to read and discuss the Word of God. Jethro commended the small groups for teaching in Exodus 18 under The Book of The Covenant before the fall at Mount Sinai and God gave The Book of the Law and sentenced the nation to captivity and death. That sentence was never carried out until God "Gave Israel kings in His anger" and Judah was not far behind.

The Levites were not commanded to be musical worship leaders then or now: they were to stand in ranks and prevent almost everyone from coming near any "holy" thing or place. "Prophesying with instruments" was called soothsaying and John in Revelation 18 calls it sorcery

The Levites were under the King and Commanders of the Army: they do not command or conduct spiritual worship.

The Church of England tried to remove the organs but Queen Elizabeth, being the head of the church, needed them for national ceremonies. The leader of the National Cathedral notes that the "audience" are simply spectators in national ceremonies.

Picking "patterns" from the Civil-Military national (Goyim) may really be a sentence.

The old ACU is not the new ACU happy.gif Besides, I learned to read in Engineering College.


 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.68.241

Re: Monarchy and the Christian Kingdom

September 5 2012, 3:04 PM 

"Besides, I learned to read in Engineering College."

********************************

Ken, you must have skipped "Technical Report Writing" class. Engineers are expected to write in a clear and precise manner. Double and triple negatives are not allowed. I'm glad you didn't make it to the nuclear power field as an engineer. happy.gif


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.129.106

Re: Monarchy and the Christian Kingdom

September 5 2012, 3:37 PM 

Technical Writing is CRYPTIC: it always assumes a fairly high level of learning because, like Theologians writing for theologians, it is not intended for the mass market.

John Wesley's (I think) mother was asked why she told little johnny not to do something 20 times: she answered "because Johnny did not understand the 19th time."

I can write you a 30 page Book in a couple of days and I don't have the time or energy to write Beginnings, Middles and Endings nor do spell and grammar check. If you can grasp the meaning then I can move on. My younger brother, the writer, could spend 2 weeks rewriting my 4 page paper but then he still asks "whut u gonna due bout Davud?"

I could tell ALL of the instrumental discorders that 2 Chronicles 29 does not say that God COMMANDED them to DO INSTRUMENTAL REJOICING at the not commanded burning of the Goat (a demon or Greek capella or constellation or goat singers) and they will respond GOD COMMANDED INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE for this congregation and you will be DISOBEDIENT if you object.

That's what you call your common grade of strong delusions MARKED for avoidance by religious rituals using the performing arts CLAIMING that a God person is INSIDE of them "giving them visions (Lucado), having A spirit stop them in the middle of a sermon (Atchley) or hearing audible voices (Shelly).

 
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Scripture
(no login)
74.179.45.94

Neither do it condemn you [now]

September 5 2012, 11:35 AM 

I use David as a model, only to the extent that David did repent of his terrible sins. Although he apparently repented, as at the arrival of Nathan the prophet, he still bore the tragic outcome--death of a son, and that the sword would never depart from his house.

Jesus says this well in John 8:11. "Neither do I condemn you [now]" with the "now" suggested by Carroll Ellis, some years ago. The woman caught in adultery was not condemned on the spot, because she was given the chance for repentance.

Jesus was sinless, David was a sinner apparently forgiven. David's forgiveness does foreshadow the mercy now available in Christ, dependent on repentance, of course.

David shows some greatness seen nowhere else in the Hebrew scriptures. And some of the worst behavior. His greatness was because he was able to rise above it.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.203.6

Re: Neither do it condemn you [now]

September 5 2012, 12:07 PM 

Observe the perfect example of Christ. Heed His teachings and those of His apostles, and you'll do well. It's far better to follow and emulate Christ, for He offers salvation to those who obey Him, whereas David, now-long-deceased, cannot. Many will not be able to accept or understand that very simple fact.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.129.106

Re: Neither do it condemn you [now]

September 5 2012, 12:33 PM 

Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush,
when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
Luke 20:39 Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said.
Luke 20:40 And after that they durst not ask him any question at all.
Luke 20:41 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is Davids son?
Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Luke 20:44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?
Luke 20:45 Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples,
Luke 20:46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes,
and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
Luke 20:47 Which devour widows houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both DEAD and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.68.241

Re: Neither do it condemn you [now]

September 5 2012, 1:38 PM 

Observe the perfect example of Christ. Heed His teachings and those of His apostles, and you'll do well. It's far better to follow and emulate Christ, for He offers salvation to those who obey Him, whereas David, now-long-deceased, cannot. Many will not be able to accept or understand that very simple fact.

******************************


What about the "inspired writers", should we believe them?

2 Timothy 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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