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Re: Neither do it condemn you [now]

September 5 2012, 4:53 PM 

Well, we thought Racnor knew who recorded the teachings of Christ and His apostles and that those teachings were found in the New Testament. Racnor sounds as if he had some doubts about the "inspired writers." This may be news for Racnor, but those inspired writers were the ones who recorded the teachings of Christ and His apostles. I hope that's clear now.

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Re: Neither do it condemn you [now]

September 5 2012, 5:16 PM 

"Well, we thought Racnor knew who recorded the teachings of Christ and His apostles and that those teachings were found in the New Testament. Racnor sounds as if he had some doubts about the "inspired writers." This may be news for Racnor, but those inspired writers were the ones who recorded the teachings of Christ and His apostles. I hope that's clear now."


Your almost there "B". The inspired writers were in both the Old Testament and New Testament.

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Re: Neither do it condemn you [now]

September 5 2012, 6:31 PM 

All of the Bible is inspired, but we as Christians follow the teachings of Christ and His apostles as found in the New Testament. We do not follow the Mosaic Law, which Christ nailed to the cross (Col. 2:14). If we did, we'd still be burning sacrifices and following all the rituals as per the Old Law. Even the Scriptures state that the Old Law was flawed:

"For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second" (Heb. 8:7 KJV).

"In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away" (Heb 8:13 KJV).

Just as we cannot serve two masters (Matt. 6:24), we cannot serve two covenants.

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Re: Neither do it condemn you [now]

September 5 2012, 6:51 PM 

For "B" and his head (old rocky top). happy.gif

2 Timothy 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

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Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 5 2012, 12:40 PM 

The fact that our King and Savior IS Jesus Christ is not the problem. The problem here is that several here continue to berate and despise David.....all because someone will use David as an example of how one can please God by playing and singing. They they conjure up this tale of tales where you need an explicit command/authority to play while you sing. David did it so you attack him, no matter how many times that the Scriptures show that God loved David.
Remember....too and again.....playing an instrument does not prohibit the only aids the singing. That ONLY means that playing isn't an addition to the Scriptures and will NEVER be an matter how many times you say it.

Have a go at it William Crump and say it again and no avail.

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Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 5 2012, 6:45 PM 

We urge Dave to abandon his fixation about David as the gold standard for Christian worship. Dave's gold standard should be the teachings of Christ and His apostles as written in the New Testament. Dave should also make sure that he adheres to and teaches the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command, especially regardng singing and making melody in the heart.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 5 2012, 3:02 PM 


Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel,
.....Amend your ways and your doings,
.....and I will cause you to dwell in this place. Jeremiah 7:3

Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, are these. Jeremiah 7:4

For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings;
.....if ye thoroughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour; Jeremiah 7:5

If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow,
.....and shed not innocent blood in this place,
.....neither walk after other gods to your hurt: Jeremiah 7:6

Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever. Jeremiah 7:7

Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit. Jeremiah 7:8

If you say that God DID command anything about the Temple-State when the Spirit OF Christ has denied it then the Spirit OF Christ in Jeremiah 23 says that you BLASPHEME.

The Spirit OF Christ said

Jer. 8:7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD.

Jer. 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is WITH US? LO, CERTAINLY IN VAIN MADE HE IT; THE PEN OF THE SCRIBES IS in vain.

8267. sheqer, sheh´-ker; from 8266; an untruth; by implication, a sham (often adverbial):without a cause, deceit(-ful), false(-hood, -ly), feignedly, liar, + lie, lying, vain (thing), wrongfully.

Even the stork in the heavens knows her times; and the turtledove, swallow, and crane keep the time of their coming; but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD."How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. The wise men shall be put to shame, they shall be dismayed and taken; lo, THEY HAVE REJECTED THE WORD OF THE LORD, and what wisdom is in them? Jeremiah 8:8-9 RSV


Jer. 8:10 Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them: for every one from the least even unto the greatest is given to covetousness, from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.

The Holy Spirit of Christ said it again about the MONARCHY which did not follow the Law of Moses since there is NO musical worship commanded in The Law of Moses. If you say that God DID COMMAND INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE (Atchley, etal) they you BLASPHEME the Spirit of Christ.

Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites. The Ezekiel 33 example names "entertainment speakers, singers and instrument players." This was the MARK of those who had no intention of "using one mind and one mouth to speak that which is written."

Jesus said that God HIDES Himself from these WISE or SOPHISTS. I hope people can grasp that the EVIL THESIS of the Jews is recorded for your LEARNING and not for your imitation claiming that A SPIRIT told them to lie, cheat and steal the church house and families from widows--that Scribe and Pharisee Mark.

Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on John, agreeing with ALL of historic scholarship:

That the Pharisees puffed up unto strange boasting,
.....were wont to pretend that the Divine Word was with them and in them,
.....and therefore foolishly affirmed that they had advanced to marvellous wisdom,
.....the Spirit Itself will testify,
.....since Christ says by the Prophet Jeremiah unto them,
.........How do ye say, WE are wise, and the word of the Lord is with us?
.........For nought to the scribes became their lying pen;
.........the wise men were ashamed, were dismayed and taken;
.........what wisdom is in them? because they rejected the word of the Lord.

For how are they not taken rejecting the Living and Hypostatic Word of God, receiving not the faith to Him-ward,
.....but dishonouring the Impress of God the Father, and refusing to behold His most true Form (so to say)
.....through His God-befitting Authority and Power?

Paul who SAW and HEARD the Spirit Lord Who said "I am Jesus of Nazareth" confirmed: Paul EXCLUDES all of the hypocritic arts and crafts BEFORE he defines the preaching-teaching role to "teach that which has been taught and "use one mind and one mouth to speak that which is written for our learning. We DISCIPLES do not have to be told not to MAKE INSTRUMENTAL NOISE when Jesus Christ comes as still King, Priest and only Mediator. Instrumentalists CLAIM to be the mediators by claiming to "lead you into the presence of God.

1Cor. 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness;
.....but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Cor. 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
.....and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Cor. 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe?
.....where is the disputer of this world?ß
.....hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Cor. 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God
.....the world by wisdom knew not God, pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Sophis-tês , ou, ho, master of one's craft, adept, expert, of diviners, Hdt.2.49; of poets, meletan sophistais prosbalon Pi.I.5(4).28 , cf. Cratin.2; of musicians, sophistês . . parapaiôn chelun {Herme's Turtle Shell Harp he made before he got out of his crib: You know; Herneneutics?)

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 5 2012, 5:23 PM 

What about the "inspired writers", should we believe them?

2 Timothy 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

I thought I posted this? Paul ALWAYS defines the pagan-witchcraft THESIS before he teaches the Christian ANTITHESIS. For instance, why is it that the instrumental witches (one Warlock to 10,000 witches unless there is that gender thingy).

Why is it that NO promoter of music ALL of who claim that there is NOT ANTI EVIDENCE do not have the simpliest ability to define words: reading is more important than writing. I told you before that Good does not advise the WITCHES and SORCERERS to repent: the MARK OF MUSIC is defact proof that "there is no light in them." Now, why would people let honest preachers starve and suffer abuse and pay false preachers to Lie, Cheat and steal the church houses of widows: the Scribe and Pharisees patternism.

[linked image]

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Ken Sublett
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2 Timothy 3 part TWO as PAGAN THESIS

September 5 2012, 5:38 PM 

What means it that the Church is built (edified or educated)upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles and not warriors? The Spirit OF Christ breathed on the prophets to REPUDIATE the Civil-Militay-Priestly complex and names them robbers and parasites: a religious instrument player in Greek sacrificial systems was called a PARASITE as were the instrumental prophesiers.

Jesus of Nazareth made these prophecies more certain so that Christ is the chief cornerstone which is OPEN as opposed to the sacrificial clergy which was commanded to EXCLUDE the godly people and gave notice by the Levites making noise to threaten you with death if you were not outside the gates.

An accurate RECORD can be inspired but if you can READ that record you will discover that it commands you NOT to do what the end-time Babylonian mothers have done by unleashing the Locusts which in the knowledge base of most people educated in the Greek theater would be identified as the MUSES or GRACES. History calls them dirty adulterers and John called them Sorcerers who HAD deceived the whole world (Kosmos for which Jesus refused to pray).

[linked image]

Consistent with the attack of the Grace-Centered and New Wineskins patternism, maybe the CUP is already being POURED OUT: Christ in Isaiah 30 says the MARKS in sight and sound of God driving His enemies into "hell" are the wind, string and percussion instruments which Lucifer, the singing and harp playing prostitute, brought with him-her-it when "cast as profane" (Chalal, halal) out of heaven.

Since you don't hear or see those certain marks in the non-instrumental churches, we can be fairly certain of "who are the enemies of God."

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Ken Sublett
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September 5 2012, 7:46 PM 

Timothy and Paul would have attended synagogue and gone home to be taught what they learned until the next REST time. The council at Jerusalem understood that many Gentile converts would have attended synagogue and were made wise unto salvation. That was because the REST which was promised by Christ in the Prophets defined the future church both INCLUSIVELY and EXCLUSIVELY.

We noted that the Spirit OF Christ in the prophets radically condemned the nobility (Civil-Military-Priestly) as robbers and parasites and the murderers of the prophets "from the foundation of the world." The Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites (entertainment speakers, singers and instrument players) would fulfill prophecy and murder the Messiah whom they could not deny.

Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers,
.....because they knew him not,
.....nor yet the voices of the prophets
.....which are read every sabbath day,
.........they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Mocking Jesus as prophesied and fulfilled.

[linked image]
[linked image]

THE CHURCH OF CHRIST ANTITHESIS while the discorders DENY that there are any commands by saying that the Scriptures are NOT adequate to the needs of their sorcery.

2Tim. 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou HAST learned and hast been assured of,
.....knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Tim. 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,
.....which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
.....and is profitable
.......for doctrine,
.......for reproof,
.......for correction,
.......for instruction in righteousness:
2Tim. 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect,
.....throughly furnished unto all good works.

The PATTERN from the wilderness onward:

1Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to [public] reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1Timothy 4:15 Meditate upon these things;
.......give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
1Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine;
.......continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself,
.......and them that hear thee.

The instrumental sorcerers DENY the truth of this: they are JESUS ONLY and deny the Epistles.


Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak,
and not to please ourselves.

GREEK Areskos, LATIN placeo: stop the rhetoric, singing, playing, drama consistent with the direct command in Isaiah 58.

Romans 15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. [Education]
Romans 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written,
.....The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. [exposing His nakedness while musically mocking]
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning,
.....that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

NO! we need to frazzle your nerves and stroke all of your pleasure centers: that gender thingy.

Romans 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God,
.....even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.

NO! you must GET OVER IT or GET OUT. Why are the MASSES so easily deceived: in the words of Rick Atchley they spent about 12 years refusing to teach the truth and taking the youth to the retreats where they were deliberately subjected to instrumental "worship" music. He said that they were "teaching them to leave our movement" while he still took took the pay. Paraphrasing Paul, fools love to be fooled.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Sep 5, 2012 7:48 PM

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Madison Continues to Embrace the Community Church Movement

September 10 2012, 1:05 AM 

Google "40 days Rick Warren." I did this and it came back with:
About 1,650,000 results (0.30 seconds)
Searches related to 40 days rick warren
40 days purpose rick warren
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rick warren 40 days of love
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40 days of purpose
Pastor Rick Warren, leader of Saddleback Community Church in Lake Forest, Calif., and author of "The Purpose Driven ...

40 Days Of Love at CBD
Save at Christianbook on titles by Rick Warren today!
Joyce Meyer - Stormie Omartian - Max Lucado - John MacArthur

40 Days of Community Small Group Bible Study by Rick Warren ... 14, 2012 - 25 min - Uploaded by zondervan
The DVD, study guide, and personal devotional are all available here: - ...


What's more evident than what the Madison leadership's decision to adopt "Pastor" Rick Warren's money-making methodology, an appeal to "Building My Life in the Bible: 40 Days in the Word"?

No wonder that Rick Warren does not need the monthly salary from his Saddleback Community Church in CA. And certain "progressive" churches of Christ are just going with the FLOW -- the Community Church Movement!!!

The "worship" guide's advertisement today:

40 DAYS IN THE WORD: Participant Sign-ups LAST DAY Today

  • A church-wide study of "40 Days in the Word" starts the week of September 16. This is a six-week-long, coordinated study that includes pulpit messages and small groups, called Grow Groups. Each Grow Group will consist of 10-12 people of all ages, unless the group decides to be "adult only."

  • Each participant (or couple) will need a workbook, which is $10 (cash or check).

  • Contact Leanne Shelby at 615-860-3202 or for more information.

I actually saw the name of "Rick Warren" on the big screen.


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Ken Sublett
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Re: Madison Continues to Embrace the Community Church Movement

September 10 2012, 12:37 PM 

ALL of the Bible and Church history knows that Israel LOST The Book of The Covenant and was abandoned BECAUSE of musical idolatry. NO preacher or "scholar" I am aware of will not HURT you for saying it. That is why the FORTY DAY PLAN is the LAST TEST.

Ephraim Syrus On Our Lord

Ye ought therefore to understand. And this also I further beg of you, as being one of you, and loving you both individually and collectively more than my own soul, to take heed now to yourselves, and not to be like some, adding largely to your sins, and saying,

"The COVENANT is both theirs and ours."
.....But they thus finally lost it, after Moses had already received it.

For the Scripture saith, "And Moses was fasting in the mount forty days and forty nights,
.....and received the covenant from the Lord,
.....tables of stone written with the finger of the hand of the Lord; "
.....But turning away to idols, they lost it.

The Israelites were consummate idolaters in Egypt. However, God gave them one more shot at the Abrahamic Covenant. By removing Moses as a visible "authority figure" He wanted to let them answer their own prayer:

As for this Moses who brought us up, we know not what has become of him.
.....ffr they ceased to regard the mighty works that had been surrounding them.

They perceived that Moses was not near them; so that for this cause that had come near,
.....they drew [near] to the heathenism of Egypt.
For Moses was for a little removed from before them,
.....that the calf that was before them might appear, that they might worship it openly also;
.....for they had been secretly worshipping it in their hearts.

18. But when their heathenism from being inward became open,
.....then Moses also from being hidden openly appeared;
.....that he might openly punish those whose heathenism had revelled beneath the holy cloud which had overshadowed them.

But God removed the Shepherd of the flock from it for FORTY DAYS
.....that the flock might show that its trust was fixed upon the calf.

While God was feeding the flock with all delights,
..... it chose for itself as its Shepherd the calf, which was not able even to eat.
.....Moses who kept them in awe was removed from them, that the idolatry might cry aloud in their mouths,
.....which the restraint of Moses had kept down in their hearts. For they cried: Make us gods, to go before us.

19. But when Moses came down, he saw their heathenism revelling in the wide plain with drums and cymbals.
.....Speedily, he put their madness to shame means of the Levites [not MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAMS]and drawn swords.
.....So likewise here, our Lord concealed His knowledge
.....for a little when the sinful woman approached Him,
.....that the Pharisee might form into shape his thought,
.....AS his fathers had shaped the pernicious calf.

20. God gave room to Israel to enlarge its heathenism in the wide desert;
.....whom God cut short with whetted sword,
.....that their idolatry might not be spread abroad among the Gentiles.
So our Lord allowed the Pharisee to imagine perverse things,
.....that He might in turn duly reprove his pride.

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Ken Sublett
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Rick Warren is NOT the Foundation for Bible Study

September 10 2012, 8:19 PM 

I am amazed that with all of the APT TO TEACH talent that they would call in Rick Warren to show them how. Of course, they DEFACT defend Rick Atchley's method which led him to REPUDIATE everything a Church of Christ believes and teaches. The DIRECT COMMAND about how to PREACH the Word by READING it, explaining ITS doctrine and giving COMFORT through Scripture delivered for that very purpose. No one when all churches were called a Church of Christ ever doubted two things repudiated by the Madison people:

First, the Jews worshiped the TEMPLE and the Spirit OF Christ said that the "lying pen of the Scribes" are NOT out authority.
Second, the Spiritual Temple is WITHIN us and those given A holy spirit or A good conscience can worship God IN THE SPIRIT in contrast to IN THE FLESH which permits the "dogs" from entering.
Third, the Church is built or Educated upon the Prophecies by the Spirit OF Christ and the prophecies made more certain by Jesus and RECORDED for our learning.

There can be no doubt that Rick Warren's False Dogma will be included: otherwise why join a nation-wide building upon the foundation of Rick Warren. Certainly people will be encouraged to believe what Rick Warren DISCOVERED in his magical way to study the Word.

Let us inquire, then, if there still is a temple of God. There is-where He himself declared He would make and finish it. For it is written, "And it shall come to pass, when the week is completed, the temple of God shall be built in glory in the name of the Lord."

.....Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins,
........and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
........and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
........and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
........and to anoint the most Holy.

I find, therefore, that a temple does exist. Learn, then, how it shall be built in the name of the Lord.
.....Before we believed in God,
.....the habitation of our heart was corruptand weak, being indeed like a temple made with hands.
For it was full of idolatry,
.....and was a habitation of demons,
.....through our doing such things as were opposed to [the will of] God.

But it shall be built, observe ye, in the name of the Lord, in order that the temple of the Lord may be built in glory. How? Learn [as follows].

Having received the forgivenessof sins,
.....and placed our trust in the name of the Lord,
.....we have become new creatures,
.....Formed again from the beginning.

Wherefore in our habitation God truly dwells in us.
.....His word of faith;
.....His calling of promise;
.....the wisdom of the statutes;
.....the commands of the doctrine;
........He himself prophesying in us;
........He himself dwelling in us;

opening to us who were enslaved by death the doors of the temple,
.....that is, the mouth; and by giving us repentance
.....introduced us into the incorruptible temple.

He then, who wishes to be saved,
.....looks NOT to man,
.....but to Him who dwelleth in him,
.....and speaketh in him,
.....amazed at never having either heard him utter such words with his mouth,
.....nor himself having ever desired to hear them.
.....This is the spiritual temple built for the Lord .

Any Levite soothsaying with instruments who entered into the earthly temple was to be EXECUTED. Why would people IMPOSE instruments on their youth knowing that they are violating direct commands and using machines to FACILITATE a foolish, infantile and effeminate view of God the Father.

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(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 13 2012, 7:53 PM 

Wherefore by their FRUITS ye shall know them. Matthew 7:20

I am not ready to launch into to the FRUITS connected with lord, lord prophesying.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 7:21
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Matthew 7:22

I am also skipping some of the MARKS of the musical prophesiers. I am reading a book which spells out the universal mark of MUSIC and the EFFEMINATE in the ancient world and now. Readers will be interested.

This explains why people FLEE from Babylon and heaping on more performance will make things worse.

[linked image]
[linked image]

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(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 13 2012, 9:41 PM 

Quoting Greek and Latin scholars who would have understood why SPEAK is so important as the ANTITHESIS to the marks of perversion in musical, rhetorical and theatrical performance. That's why so many people FLEE when they see the exhibition of performance in rhetoric or music.

We shut ourselves up and write something grand--sometimes in verse, sometimes in prose--something that will take a vast amount of breath to pant out. This stuff you will some day read aloud to the public, combed, with a new toga, all in white, even with a birthday sardonyx gem on your finger; you shall read from a high chair having first lubricated your throat with a delicate wash, with an effeminate leer in your eye.

157 Bramble's fine analysis of the sexual and homosexual overtones in this passage does not require amplification.

48 For the purposes of this discussion, I will only elaborate on the features that link Persius' epic recital
to other genres of public performance: the theatrical performance and declamation.
The recitatio in this passage is clearly a public event, bordering on prostitution. The high chair evokes associations with Juvenal's Satire 3.135, where a prostitute displays her goods in public.

49 The audience does not consist of the select few, but of the common public (populo). The voice betrays features of effeminacy similar to those of actors, who were also often represented as effeminate.

50 Signs of effeminacy appear in the preliminary vocal modulation of the recitator (liquido cum plasmate guttur mobile conlueris) and in his entire comportment and body language (patranti fractus ocello).
Persius continues with the audience and the emasculating effect of the public performance
on those who passively submit to the allurements of the recitator's virtuoso voice.

The sweet voice is an agent of titillation, arousing the audience, evoking images of sexual gratification:

(Sat. 1.20--21) Then, as the poems enter the loins and when the intimate parts are tickled by the thrilling verse, you might see huge Tituses quiver in no seemly fashion and in no tranquil voice.

Wyke cites these lines at the close of her discussion of the performative aspects of the elegiac genre and suggests that Persius' First Satire is a productive ground for examining how the recitation of poetry sheds light on the construction of gender in ancient Rome.

51 Indeed, this entire section of Persius' satire represents the recital as partaking in the infamous association of performance and effeminacy.

It partakes in the deconstruction of traditionally held values of male excellence. Persius manipulates terms used also in Seneca the Elder's moralizing discourse in regard to the decline and emasculation of declamation as practiced in the rhetorical schools.

Seneca's invective against the deterioration of the morals of young orators includes many of the components that we have observed in Persius' satire in regard to poetic performance.

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(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps

September 14 2012, 11:18 PM 

People have no trouble of boasting about "turning your church into a theater for holy entertainment:"we will just have to console the weeping widows who are being cast out of their own church family. What they are taught to do is "infiltrate and divert" but a thief is a thief and a liar is one who denies the eternal use of musical instruments (without authority of Jubal) in order to steal your sheep and sell them back to you. John calls the singers, instrument players and other religious TEKNOKRATS "Sorcerers" who HAD deceived the whole world. That is their job: they are ordained from old so we need to rejoice and be glad when so many of the Churches of Christ refuse to take the MARK of the beast defined as "a new style of singing or drama, or performing the roles of the satyrs (goats, cappellas)

Strabo wrote about music

Plato Plat. Laws 12.941b
[941b] if convicted. Theft of property is uncivilized, open robbery is shameless: neither of these has any of the sons of Zeus practiced, through delight in fraud or force. Let no man, therefore, be deluded concerning this or persuaded either by poets or by any perverse myth-mongers into the belief that, when he thieves or forcibly robs, he is doing nothing shameful, but just what the gods themselves do.1 That is both unlikely and untrue; and whoever acts thus unlawfully is neither a god at all nor a child of gods;

1 Cp.Plat. Rep 378 ff., Plat. Rep. 388 ff. Hermes is specially in mind, as notorious for his thefts and frauds; cp. Homer Iliad 5. 390; 24. 395, etc

The "New Hermeneutic" of the Neuts happy.gif

[941c] and this the lawgiver, as it behoves him, knows better than the whole tribe of poets. He, therefore, that hearkens to our speech is blessed, and deserves blessing for all time; but he that hearkens not shall, in the next place, be holden by this law:--If anyone steals any piece of public property, he shall receive the same punishment, be it great or small. For he that steals a small thing steals with equal greed, though with less power, while he that takes a large thing which he has not deposited does wrong to the full;

In [10.3.7] Strabo continues, "The accounts which are more remotely related, however, to the present subject, but are wrongly, on account of the identity of the names, brought into the same connection by the historians--I mean those accounts which, although they are called "Curetan History" and "History of the Curetes," just as if they were the history of those Curetes who lived in Aetolia and Acarnania, not only are different from that history, but are more like the accounts of the Satyri, Sileni, Bacchae, and Tityri;
.....for the Curetes (clergy or priests), like these, are called genii or ministers of gods by those who have handed down to us the Cretan and the Phrygian traditions, which are interwoven with certain sacred rites, some mystical, the others connected in part with the rearing of the child Zeus in Crete and inpart with the orgies in honor of the mother of the godswhich are celebrated in Phrygia and in the region of the Trojan Ida.

Defined in Revelation 17 as the mother of harlots defined as "fruits" in Amos, Revelation and the all of the plucking of self pleasure to "Make the Lambs dumb before the slaughter."

But the variation in these accounts is so small that, whereas some represent the Corybantes, the Cabeiri, the Idaean Dactyli, and the Telchines [Father of Judas] as identical with the Curetes, others represent them as all kinsmen of one another and differentiate only certain small matters in which they differ in respect to one another;
.....but, roughly speaking and in general, they represent them, one and all, as a kind of inspired people and as subject to Bacchic frenzy, and, in the guise of ministers, as inspiring terror at the celebration of the sacred rites by means of war-dances, accompanied by uproar and noise and cymbals and drums and arms, and also by flute and outcry and consequently these rites are in a way regarded as having a common relationship, I mean these and those of the

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

"Worship Leader"--->"Praise Team"--->"Instrumental Music"--->

October 15 2012, 5:01 PM 

Combined 8:00AM and Contemporary (10:30AM) Attendance

..... Recent stats are taken from the Marcher/worship program
..... Transition: Bruce White out; Phil Barnes in (Oct-Dec, 2004)
..... Membership Records for 2002 (Madison Marcher, 01.22.03):
..... __________ 1863 Family Units
..... __________ 4574 Attenders/Members
..... Membership Records for 2004 (Madison Marcher, 01.10.05):
..... __________ 1633 Family Units
..... __________ 3629 Attenders
..... Membership Records for 2005 (Madison Marcher, 01.25.06):
..... __________ 1675 Family Units
..... __________ 3514 Attenders/Members
..... Membership Records for 2006 (Madison Marcher, Feb. 2007:
..... __________ 1648 Family Units
..... __________ 3507 Attenders/Members

2001 JANUARY 3000+___3000+___3000+___3000+
2001 APR ______ ________2525____________2303
2001 MAY ______ 2498____2675____2403____2348
2001 JUN ______ 2355____2558____2543____2371
2001 JUL ______ 2531____2508____2428____2306____2386
2001 AUG ______ 2177____2375____2297____2161
2001 SEP ______ 2163____2335____2577____2096
2001 DEC ______ 2148____2008____2039____2134____1985

2002 __________ [no stats available]
_______________ [NOTE: 2002 census shows MCC with
_______________ 3142 members;
_______________ 1786 in worship attendance;
_______________ 4730 adherents]

2003 SEP ______ 1782____1722____1629____1498
2003 OCT ______ 1681____________2028____1643
2004 SEP ______ 1640____1728____1715____1661
2004 OCT Trans. 1687____1660____1630____1660____1617
2005 SEP ______ 2014____1917____1854____1915
2005 OCT ______ 1637____1784____1811____1773____1794
2006 SEP ______ 1695____1864____________1888
2006 OCT ______ 1880____1800____1872____1886____1884
2007 SEP ______ 1933____1876____1794____1902____1895
2007 OCT ______ 1540____1812____1859____1737____
2012 SEP ______ 1441____1582____1556____1497____1494
2012 OCT ______ 1402____ ____ ____ ____

As one may notice from the stats above, there has been no compilation derived from the weekly worship guide since the latter part of 2007. I have extracted the above data from the last "What Happened This Week..." thread. The intent here is to show comparative data during the months of September and October for each year indicated. Hopefully, I can find time to compile the weekly stats through all the years.

Here are some factors to consider in the analysis of the attendance trend since 2001, especially since the congregation has been under Phil Barnes' "watch" [duty of a pastor/elder]:

  1. The upheaval of 2001 was prompted by the emergence of a denominational "Worship Leader" concept.
  2. The upheaval of 2001 was prompted by the implementation of the "Praise Team" [denominational CHOIR] fad.
  3. The above Community Church fads/schemes caused division in the eldership -- many elders left/resigned.
  4. The above Community Church fads/schemes caused division in the membership -- half of it LEFT.
  5. The above culture-driven schemes split the membership into: (a) "traditional" and (b) "contemporary."
  6. ------- [Many incidents and events occurred in between.]
  7. Last year was a "survey" (referred to as "suggestions" requested from members).
  8. The "suggestions" were supposed to provide solutions to and how to combat decline in membership and attendance.
  9. The result of the survey was certainly predetermined -- someone [perhaps only a few] suggested instrumental music. That was a no-brainer.
  10. Ever so subtle in the implementation of instrumental music is to begin with/brainwash the "innocent" -- the children and the youth.
  11. Continue with the culture-driven "grow-the-church" scheme of Rick Warren, senior pastor of the 15,000+ member Saddleback Community Church in CA.
  12. Rick Warren, along with his various "40 Days" programs [financial sales from study materials, etc., going to his "ministry"], is frequently mentioned as mentor by Phil Barnes. Rather than using Scripture-based materials written by Restoration Movement [and its history] authors.

You, the reader, do your own assessment of what is happening at Madison.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: "Worship Leader"--->"Praise Team"--->"Instrumental Music"---

October 15 2012, 5:20 PM 

Does that mean that there has been little to no recovery from the bottom?

An interesting study would be how many of the OWNERS were retained versus being replenished (according to plan) by the pro-musical bent butterflies.

That would say that they shifted out the owners and shifted in the seekers with no hint that they "gonna save more souls" by turning the church into "a theater for holy entertainment."

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(no login)

Placing a rod in the spokes of a bicycle

October 15 2012, 5:51 PM 

It has seemed to be true that usually the church shows signs of growing, those who "rule" want to get in on the action, and propose some grandiose programs to accelerate.

More often than not, this places a "rod in the bicycle spokes" that all but disables the church.

The abrupt change from normalcy to "freshness" and "novelty" from the charm of a filmmaker who has been questioned as being "meditative" with the Eastern religions is a wound.

Some of the members, apparently, who have been comfortable in the "traditional" Bible classes, which they love, have felt compelled to visit neighboring churches, where to their surprise, the singing is very energetic and inspiring. They have found the teaching there is Biblical and uplifting. Some have said that the anchors holding them to Madison are more tentative than other, and they would leave were it not for a few teachers that have wonderful classes--but the number of anchor points continues to diminish.

This could account for some of the drain. The change from normalcy to disturbance can have the good effect that it opens the eyes of those who have been asleep.

But since the elders feel that they have made their decisions on the basis of information from the Holy Spirit, I'm sure that they're surprised with the results. All should assume the mantle of leadership under the motto "inasmuch as it is in keeping with the Word of God."

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Placing a rod in the spokes of a bicycle

October 15 2012, 6:08 PM 

That's pretty funny: when you tamper around with spiritism you can get hurt. Like that guy trying to cast out demons (older members?)

Arnobius writing (A.D. 297-303) Ridicules instrumental music in worship and Charismatic Worship as idolatrous.

In a footnote on the first page of Book I the editor notes that-

The words insanir, m bacchari, refer to the appearance of the ancient seers when under the influence of the deity. The meaning is, that they make their asserverations with all the confidence of a seer when filled, as he pretended, with the influence of the god." (Arnibious, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 413)

He notes that it is childish that the gods of the pagans were not interested in heavenly things but with the courser things of earth. However, he is aware that the professional religionists devised the myths and fables to fool fools. They felt this need because "we need to do something about the falling attendance."

Nay, rather, to speak out more truly, the augurs, the dream interpreters, the SOOTHSAYERS, the prophets, and the PRIESTLINGS, ever vain, have devised these fables; for they, fearing that their own arts be brought to nought, and that they may extort but scanty contributions from the devotees, now few and infrequent,

whenever they have found you to be willing that their craft should come into disrepute,
.....cry aloud, the Gods are neglected, and the temples there is now a very thin attendance.
.....For ceremonies are exposed to derision,
.....and the time-honoured rites of institutions once sacred have sunk before the superstitions of new religions.

And men--a senseless race--being unable, from their inborn blindness, to see even that which is placed in open light,

dare to assert in their frenzy
what you in your sane mind do not blush to believe. VI, p. 418).

May it not happen, may it not come to pass,
..... although you craftily conceal it,
.....that the one should take the other's place,
.....deluding, mocking, deceiving,
.....and presenting the appearance of the deity invoked?
.....If the magi, who are so much akin to soothsayers, relate that, in their incantations,
.....pretend gods steal in frequently instead of those invoked; that some of these, moreover, are spirits of grosser substance, who pretend that they are gods, and delude the ignorant by their lies and deceit." (Arnobius Against the Heathen, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 479).

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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