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Re: Salvation Issue

July 14 2012, 3:23 PM 

What determines whether a command in the New Testament is or is not a salvation issue?

Is man free to decide for himself whether altering a particular command is a salvation issue or not? That's what man assumes when he says that adding instrumental music to the explicit command to use vocal music is not a salvation issue.

Aren't all of the explicit commands in the New Testament salvation issues?

If we deliberately break, alter, or in any way change those explicit commands to satisfy ourselves, do we not jeopardize our salvation?

Would God/Jesus issue any commands if they were not salvation issues?

Does the New Testament teach that we may do as we please with God's/Jesus' commands with impunity?

Jesus said, "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46 KJV).

Jesus did NOT say, "Ye may add to, alter, and change my explicit commands as ye will and still call me Lord, Lord."

If you expect to have the Lord hear you when you call upon Him, then you must follow His commands AS WRITTEN in the New Testament. No tweaks, enhancements, augmentations, etc.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Salvation Issue

July 14 2012, 4:50 PM 

Based on lots of explicit marks of a disciple meaning a Christian; and based on the gibbering of people who use the term, I am convinced that anyone who could whine "Is that a salvation issue?" cannot be a Christian because they don't understand that a Disciple is a student and a student of God through that which is written, is not given the right to judge except where written.

They are so far removed from connection to the HEAD that they simply cannot make a spirit to Spirit connection. They think that God is three men about 6 foot tall and a bit smarter them they. Some have even said that if Jesus or Paul had lived in OUR changed culture they would not have said what they said.

A Disciple of Christ who has been given A holy spirit or A good conscience (consiousness or a co-perception) would never have the urge to do something for which they have to make decisions for God.

A diligent seeker who loves the truth will never burn. However, since God says he hates the soothsaying instruments in the holy places; and He hates those who sow discord, their being wrong might be being "consumed with their own breath" the foyer to being cast alive into the Lake of Fire.

Concerned members just needing feeding.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jul 14, 2012 4:51 PM

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Salvation Issue

July 14 2012, 7:50 PM 

Congrats to Ken for saying that God alone is the judge.

To say "it is not a salvation issue" makes Christianity entirely too individualistic. So in this way of thinking, nothing else matters but just my "individual" salvation. This is the "me" person's way of thinking. Many from both left and right, generally thinking, hesitate to say something is a "salvation issue."

With this thinking, the "church" becomes a totally insignficant organization.

And yet, the church is the organization through which evangelization and individual salvation comes. Salvation comes through the word of God and preaching. Preaching is one of the great works of the Spirit, and preaching comes by the way of the church, which when organized scripturally can be best equipped to produce good preachers.

So it is self-defeating to say that nothing else matters but "salvation issues." The church looses badly here.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Salvation Issue

July 15 2012, 12:05 PM 

Preaching would be a lot more effective and less stressing if they knew that God has done all of the work for them: now that's pure grace.

Eph. 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ
.....for you Gentiles,
Eph. 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
.....which is given me to youward:
Eph. 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph. 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

The Qahal, Synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness continued to teach the prophets and the Law as it related to their Civil lives. The writings of the Greeks makes it clear that they were familiar with the Words of God by attending the synagogues. However, the Jews were still looking to the Law and their own works as proving that one was purified and therefore ceremonially pure. Jesus stood up in the synagogue to read from Isaiah which was already open as the resource being read, explained and commended for people's lives. The Church as Jesus reigning as both King and High priests was His blood bought instrumental means of HIM still remaining as the source for our building up or education. If something is divisive or diminishes the Word of God being taught as it has been taught or the time for teaching, they it IS a Salvation Issue because you tell Jesus: "you are not up to date with OUR culture."

Eph. 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


Eph. 3:6 That the Gentiles
.....should be fellowheirs,
.....and of the same body,
.....and partakers of his promise in Christ THE gospel:
Eph. 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister,
.....according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me the effectual working of his power.


Eph. 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, this grace given,
.....that I should preach among the Gentiles
.....the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph. 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
.....which from the beginning of the world
.....hath been hid in God,
.....who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph. 3:10 To the intent that now
.....unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places
.....might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph. 3:11 According to the eternal purpose
.....which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eph. 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access
.....with confidence by the faith OF him.

That's one good reason to preach and teach the Word (in context) and tell the story God intended: it is pretty difficult to impose something by claiming that it IS discording but it is NOT a salvation issue. Paul excluded those private opinions in Romans 14 so that the assembly (Romans 15) would be dedicated to "that which is written for our learning." That was the only CHURCH the Campbell's intended to restore.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jul 15, 2012 12:10 PM

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Salvation Issue

July 15 2012, 12:53 PM 

Papers out of ACU on preaching makes it clear that they have not read or do not care how God defines SALVATION ISSUES which would clearly MARK FOR AVOIDANCE such people:

2Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, them that have obtained like precious faith with us
.....Ghrough the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you
.....through the knowledge of God,
.....and of Jesus our Lord,
2Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
.....through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises:
.....that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
..... having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2Peter 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease have these things always in remembrance.
2Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables,
.....when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
.....but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory,
.....when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory,
.....This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Peter 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard,
.....when we were with him in the holy mount.
2Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy;
.....whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, unto a light that shineth in a dark place,
..........until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Sorcery or witchcraft was adding rhetoric or music as a means of making people follow your own will.

Epi-lusis A. release from, e. phobôn [fear] didou A.Th.134 (lyr.): abs., exemption from banishment
2. solution, sophismatôn explanation, 2 Ep.Pet.1.20, 2 Pet 3
4. spell, Magic: g4486 rhegnum to sunder by separation of the parts, a shattering to minute fragments; but not a reduction to the constituent particles, or disrupt, lacerate; by implication to convulse (with spasms); figuratively to give vent to joyful emotions:

Sophisma A.acquired skill, method, stage-trick, claptrap, rhetorikos 2. of persons, skilled in speaking, fit to be an orator Pi.O.13.17 2. in less good sense, sly trick, artifice, dikên dounai s. kakôn E.Ba.489 , cf. Hec.258; eph' hêmas tauta paronta s. Th.6.77, cf. D.35.2; stage-trick, claptrap

Pi.O.13.17 Pindar Ode 0.13 [17] the Seasons rich in flowers have cast ancient inventiveness. But the fame for every work is due to its inventor. Whence did the graces of Dionysus first come to light, with the ox-driving dithyramb? [20] Who invented the bridle for the harness of horses, or placed the double king of birds on top of the temples of gods? And in Corinth the sweet-breathing Muse blossoms, and also Ares, with the deadly spears of young men.

There is a good reason--A SALVATION ISSUE--for not IGNORING the prophets as the voice of Christ or using Private Interpretation which means adding personal opinions or ENHANCING the Word of Christ in the PROPHETS (not the kings or priests or Levites) with something RISKY but not a SALVATION ISSUE.

2Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
.....but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

This was the Spirit OF Christ: the same Spirit Agent Who ordained the Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness.

1Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently,
.....who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,
.....when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners
.....spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, [His personified Word]
.....whom he hath appointed heir of all things, whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory,
.....and the express image of his person,
.....and upholding all things by the word of his power,
.....when he had by himself purged our sins,
.....sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

ALL of the "further expounding" which violates a Direct Commandment and violates common honesty, REPUDIATE the fact that God spoke through the PROPHETS to the spiritual people and DID NOT speak through the Civil-Military-Priestly complex IMPOSED because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jul 15, 2012 12:58 PM

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Salvation Issue

July 15 2012, 7:56 PM 

So, if I understand you correctly, Ken, the Civil-Military-Priestly caste in the Old Testament could not be depended on for the truth of God, but had compromised themselves irretrievably.

So God turned to the prophets, who through the Spirit of God, brought His truth to those in the Old Testament who were ready to accept His truth. Those who accepted His truth were the Spiritual.

This would mean that the Spiritual class today should be wary of the Civil-Military-Priestly class. This would include in a general kind of government, military, and prominent religious leaders. Military mindlessly follow the government or the seculary Commander-in-Chief, while religious leaders are often "sold out."

This today would throw all truth-seekers back into an individual study of the Scriptures, where we would have to dig out the truth for ourselves. And we could look at some of those persecuted for their beliefs today, and there would be truth to be found somewhere, there-about.

Instrumental music, in this way, is like a mind-altering drug, which takes down the mind, and leads it away from logic and the rational, into an outward expression of feeling, far from objective reality. Those deceived by music are the deluded, while those maintaining a logical and rational system are truly the Spiritual.

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Donnie Cruz
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The Mind-Altering Drug

July 15 2012, 9:35 PM 

Great point, Scripture!

Instrumental music is a form of a mind-altering drug that leads one away from the pure, unadulterated truth into a "religious experience." The so-called "truth-seekers" already IN the church are actually "compromise-seekers" with the other "nations" already known for their "religious experiences."

Can you imagine the apostles, elders and other disciples in the early church indulging in this mind-altering drug? They had with them the spiritual sword, God's truth -- not the flute, the harp, the sackbut, the trumpet, the musical band with the "HOLY ENTERTAINMENT" bit.

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Ken Sublett
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July 15 2012, 8:03 PM 

More proof that Instrumental Idolatry carried a Penalty without redemption. We have shown that it was because of Musical Idolatry that God turned Israel over to Worship the Starry host. Because that became God's determined will, THOSE are the gods worshipped during the nont-commanded king, kingdom, temple, animal sacrifices, burnt offerings and the Jacob-cursed Levites performing as exorcists or soothsayers with instruments. No credible student who has read the Bible has missed that fact. NEVERTHELESS, all of the instrumental troublers in Zion INSIST that "a" spirit told them that THIS is what God commanded them to do. And I have absolutely no doubt that a spirit repudiated them by making them into a laughingstock--but not among the scholars.

"The triumphal hymn of Moses had unquestionably a religious character about it; but the employment of music in religious services, though idolatrous, is more distinctly marked in the festivities which attended the erection of the golden calf." (Smith's Bible Dictionary, Music, p. 589).

"In Egypt an ox is honored in place of the god. He is called Apis and he lives in isolation. If he ever goes among the people he stalks along while the lictors make way for him and throngs of boys accompany him, singing songs in his honor. He appears to understand what is happening and seems to wish to be adored. The throngs [of boys] sudddenly become inspired and prophesy the future. (Pliny, Natural History)

Consequently Apollo (Abaddon, Apollyon) was god of prophets and musicians and Pan was god of medicine, music and divination


21. I hate, I despise--The two verbs joined without a conjunction express God's strong abhorrence.
your feast days--yours; not Mine; I do not acknowledge them: unlike those in Judah, yours are of human, not divine institution.

The Spirit OF Christ in Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 7 insists that God DID NOT command sacrifices or burnt offerings when He rescued them by grace from Egypt. If sacrifices were ordained in any sense it was as part of God's TURNING THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST.

I will not smell--that is, I will take no delight in the sacrifices offered (Ge 8:21; Le 26:31).
in your solemn assemblies--literally, "days of restraint." Isa 1:10-15 is parallel. Isaiah is fuller; Amos, more condensed. Amos condemns Israel not only on the ground of their thinking to satisfy God by sacrifices without obedience (the charge brought by Isaiah against the Jews), but also because even their external ritual was a mere corruption, and unsanctioned by God.

22. meat offerings--flour, &c. Unbloody offerings.
peace offerings--offerings for obtaining from God peace and prosperity. Hebrew, "thank offerings."

23. Take . . . away from me--literally, "Take away, from upon Me";
.....the idea being that of a burden pressing upon the bearer.
.....So Isa 1:14, "They are a trouble unto Me (literally, 'a burden upon Me'): I am weary to bear them."
the noise of thy songs--The hymns and instrumental music on sacred occasions are to Me nothing but a disagreeable noise.
I will not hear--Isaiah substitutes "prayers" (Isa 1:15) for the "songs" and "melody" here; but, like Amos, closes with "I will not hear."

Hence the Phnicians offered human sacrifices to him, children especially; so idolatrous Israel also. Rimmon was the Syrian name (2Ki 5:18); pronounced as Remvan, or "Remphan," just as Chiun was also Chevan. Molech had the form of a king; Chevan, or Chiun, of a star [GROTIUS]. Remphan was the Egyptian name for Saturn: hence the Septuagint translator of Amos gave the Egyptian name for the Hebrew, being an Egyptian. [HODIUS II, De Bibliorum Textibus Originalibus. 4.115]. The same as the Nile, of which the Egyptians made the star Saturn the representative [HARENBERG]. BENGEL considers Remphan or Rephan akin to Teraphim and Remphis, the name of a king of Egypt. The Hebrews became infected with Sabeanism, the oldest form of idolatry, the worship of the Saba or starry hosts, in their stay in the Arabian desert, where Job notices its prevalence (Job 31:26); in opposition, in Am 5:27, Jehovah declares Himself "the God of hosts."
the star of your god--R. ISAAC CARO says all the astrologers represented Saturn as the star of Israel. Probably there was a figure of a star on the head of the image of the idol, to represent the planet Saturn; hence "images" correspond to "star" in the parallel clause. A star in hieroglyphics represents God (Nu 24:17). "Images" are either a Hebraism for "image," or refer to the many images made to represent Chiun.

27. beyond Damascus--In Ac 7:43 it is "beyond Babylon," which includes beyond Damascus. In Amos' time, Damascus was the object of Israel's fear because of the Syrian wars. Babylon was not yet named as the place of their captivity. Stephen supplies this name. Their place of exile was in fact, as he states, "beyond Babylon," in Halah and Habor by the river Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes (2Ki 17:6; compare here Am 1:5; 4:3; 6:14).

The road to Assyria lay through "Damascus." It is therefore specified,
.....that not merely shall they be carried captives to Damascus, they had been by Syrian kings (2Ki 10:32, 33; 13:7),
..... but, beyond that, to a region whence a return was not so possible as from Damascus.
.....They were led captive by Satan into idolatry,
.....therefore God caused them to go captive among idolaters.
.....Compare 2Ki 15:29; 16:9; Isa 8:4, whence it appears Tiglath-pileser
.....attacked Israel and Damascus at the same time at Ahaz' request (Am 3:11).

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Ken Sublett
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SCRIPTURE I have moved this quick response down and leftward

July 15 2012, 9:00 PM 

So, if I understand you correctly, Ken, the Civil-Military-Priestly caste in the Old Testament could not be depended on for the truth of God, but had compromised themselves irretrievably.

True: If you read Acts 7 about God turning Israel over to worship the starry host instead of the CREATOR of the hosts of heaven, a spiritual (rational) person would jump on that with both feet. In Genesis 49 Jacob warned us not to make a covenant or attend an assembly (ekklesia-synagogue) with them. For those not part of the Levites, God provided that teachers be assigned down to as few as 10 (probably heads of household). The Jews must have grasped that and allowed ten mature males to set up a synagogue because they COULD NOT travel to the Temple during the national sacrifices which God imposed but did not command.

So God turned to the prophets, who through the Spirit of God, brought His truth to those in the Old Testament who were ready to accept His truth. Those who accepted His truth were the Spiritual.

In Matthew 13 Jesus refused to speak to those who CHANGED the word so they could teach their own dogma. This class He calls hypocrites--speakers, singers and instrument players in Ezekiel 33--would not be able to comprehend the "parables" which were hidden in plain site in the text. Paul said that you have to be converted and receive A holy spirit or A good conscience before you can read BLACK text on BROWN paper.

Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
.....I will open my mouth in parables;
.....I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father,
.....inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets,
.....which was shed from the foundation of the world,
.....may be required of this generation

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
.....Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Built upon, edification or education is ONLY through the Prophets (by Christ) and the Apostles (Christ made the PROPHETS more certain. The Scholars are sorely plagued by Messianic Jews trying to restore the Law.

This would mean that the Spiritual class today should be wary of the Civil-Military-Priestly class. This would include in a general kind of government, military, and prominent religious leaders. Military mindlessly follow the government or the seculary Commander-in-Chief, while religious leaders are often "sold out."

It should be obvious that those turning their school of the Word into a "theater for holy entertainment" are in fact THE legalists believing that they can do a musical performance and appease God:

"That the spiritualistic and the legalistic are not polar opposites but in fact correlatives has been one of the discoveries of this study... If the Spirit does not come to us freely in Christ then we must go to him through some kind of spiritual achievement and this means, ultimately, via law." "
One of the most striking aspects of the Scrolls is the coincidence in them of a 'legalistic' and a 'charismatic' piety." (Bruner, A Theology of the Holy Spirit, p. 229)

The "elders" demanded that God Set A King Over us. This is fulfilled by a violent attack upon the leadership of Elders and Deacons: Deacons are being delisted and replaced by "Ministers of Bad Breath." The Preacher wants to be THE Pastor and in fact those imposing "worship teams" and Instruments have found some way to coerce the elders into agreeing or resigning. The Shepherding Movement promoted by Lynn Anderson has penetrated into many of these changed churches: this involves everyone telling the "prayer circle's" leader all of you secrets. It is a fact that these groups feed back the confessions and they are put on file. If you dare cross them, says Erasmus, they will use the "confession" to EXCISE you and they say: "Get over it or get out." This is not just "diversity" but an outbreak of demonism as we watch. Donnie's "elders" insisted that NO ONE bother the leaders unless it was a "salvation issue."

You cannot defend the ABANDONED Civil-Military-Clergy complex and prove that you have ever read the Bible beyond "passing that test." For instance, when the elders hired a Senior Preaching Pastor as a king set over us, this was the SIGN that God "gave them kings in His anger" to carry out the captivity and death sentence imposed at Mount Sinai.

This today would throw all truth-seekers back into an individual study of the Scriptures, where we would have to dig out the truth for ourselves. And we could look at some of those persecuted for their beliefs today, and there would be truth to be found somewhere, there-about.

Jesus sent out to seek and make disciples: there is little early effort that the poor priests who called themselves The Church of Christ ever concentrated on the massses but set up schools. Disciples come one at a time and the modern church seeks--and some boast--about destroying "individuation" (Shelly) and developing a GROUP MENTALITY where individuals give up their right to read, interpret or speak the word not approved by the Community (commune). Thise who will be saved must "believe and diligently seek him." No "commune" can do that for you. The assembly as A Schoolf of Christ (Campbells) is still desirable.

Certainly not the people but the NACC has never cease but intensified the persecution of those they label ANTI-instrumentalists. That means that people who will NOT conform or confirm instruments are FAIR GAIN for attacks. Considering the numbers involved, I don't think that there has been a more hostile against those who "speaking where the Bible speaks" (meaning speak that which is written for our learning" (Rom 15). If they boast about taking "your" children to retreats and intentionally subjecting them to lots of instrumental music to "teach them to leave our movement" I have no doubt that they would break your legs if they could get by with it.

Instrumental music, in this way, is like a mind-altering drug, which takes down the mind, and leads it away from logic and the rational, into an outward expression of feeling, far from objective reality. Those deceived by music are the deluded, while those maintaining a logical and rational system are truly the Spiritual.

The accounts of Genun (composite of Jubal, Jabal, Tubal-Cain and Naamah) on Babylonian accounts prove that "fathering" the use of musical instruments--without authority says Genesis--was to collect all of the God-given animals, put them in pens and then sell them back to you.

The accounts of Nimrod say that he led about a team of female musicians claiming to "regenerate morals through external means." Modern science knows that the louder and more complex the harmony the more destructive it is to the body and spirit God wants to be meek and gentle.

Modern science knows that loud music can boil an egg and creates endorphins and other thingies which induce the impulse to Fight, Flight or Sexuality. I have no doubt that it is intentional because the SEEKER impulse is defined perfectly in Mein Kampf and Machiavelli who is quoted to encourage people because change may be slow.

While the instruments have been imposed in few congregations, I believe that "worship" as the only purpose has infected lots by Agents trained and sent out---as boasted--by ACU professors. With no remembered exception conservative preachers wax hostile when you tell them: NO, God did not command "instrumental worship" under the Monarchy.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jul 15, 2012 10:02 PM

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Salvation Issues

July 18 2012, 2:09 PM 

Ken, this is why I asked you to affirm what you have stated (see below). I am not trying to trap you but just trying to understand your posts. YOU judged me in your very next post. Let's keep it civil. happy.gif

* * * * * * *

Lynn Anderson Oak Hills Church

Instrumental Music is a Salvation Issue: Proof is that nothing has occupied more unauthorized preacher than trying to force churches to add instrumental music in what they call "worship." Christ in the prophets knew that the serpent in the garden of Eden was a musical enchanter (ess) which he called "a singing and harp playing prostitute." In Matthew He warned that truth had been hidden from the Scribes and Pharisees, or hypocrites which are named as performance speakers, singers and instrument players in Ezekiel 33.

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Re: Salvation Issues

July 18 2012, 4:19 PM 

When the change agents accuse the conservatives of "judging" them and demanding that the conservatives keep things "civil," it means the conservatives have called the change agents to task for their unscriptural doctrines, and the change agents don't like that one bit.

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john watson smith
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Salvation Issues and Romans 8

July 23 2012, 5:49 PM 

Consider the teaching of Romans 8 that we are to walk by the Spirit not the flesh.

Consider also that Romans 8 says we are to set our minds on the things of the Spirit not of the flesh

Consider also that Romans 8 says if we have not the spirit of Christ we are not his.

Seeing that these things are true, what category does instrumental music fall under? Is it not the appeal to the senses of man wanting things to sound good to human ears? Is not the appeal of the flesh wanting to be entertaining and intellectually acceptable to mankind?

Remember the Spirit of Christ is to do the will of the Father. Where is instrumental music specified as the will of the Father?

Comments Welcome

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

The Sword of a Change Agent's "Spirit": "It Is Not a Salvation Issue"

August 25 2012, 3:03 PM 

Ephesians 6:

  • [14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
  • [15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
  • [16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
  • [17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
  • [18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints...

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Re: Phil Barnes probably builds on Lynn Anderson at Oak Hills Church

August 26 2012, 3:37 AM 

Why is this delusional moron still being allowed to post here? You do realize he is a plant by the Mormons, don't you?

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Phil Barnes probably builds on Lynn Anderson at Oak Hills Church

August 26 2012, 6:34 PM 

Annie Mouse,

Careful!!! He is an engineer. He has served as an elder of the church. He is a moderator of ALL the CM forums and has the authority to delete or edit posts and messages, including those that deal with personal attacks -- like yours [the one above].

It may be that the truth he reveals and supported by the Holy Scripture is beyond your level of comprehension. But that is your problem, not his. His writings may be beyond the level of comprehension among the change agents, and the problem is theirs, not his.

Your post above could have easily been edited or deleted altogether, but the audience needs to know your true nature -- the reason why it has been approved. You have every opportunity to rebut the contents of his messages that you vehemently disagree with. But your personal attacks are despicable and undesirable to those who visit to learn and study the truth, as well as the facts about the CHANGE AGENTS who constantly demean the church that Christ established -- the church they STILL claim to be members of -- while they seek to elevate the denominational churches that surround them and to promote certain teachings and doctrines that contradict the New Testament.

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Re: Phil Barnes probably builds on Lynn Anderson at Oak Hills Church

August 26 2012, 7:33 PM 

Thank you archbishop has been three weeks since his last confessional.

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Ken Sublett
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What the Hebrews knew that Madison fulfills

August 26 2012, 8:01 PM 

I've been busy with Jimmy and others trying to refute people promoting SPEAKING IN TONGUES. We showed that there is no such thing as UNKNOWN tongues and that no one in the Bible spoke gibberish. Paul warned that too many people speaking their OWN KNOWN DIALECT would SOUND like what is documented as the Mad Women of Corinth. GCM won't tolerate too much Scripture so I AM barred again so people can promote SPEAKING IN TONGUES. Quoting real true evidence will never change those who think that they are INCARNATED Just like Jesus.

Preachers are not trained as Bible Students but often chosen because of their charisma (smile) and devotion to turning "Madison into a theater for holy entertaiment" as they claimed at the time. Never be surprised at a slow train to nepotism: This is what God promised Israel when the ELDERS fired God and demanded a Senior Pastor so they could worship like the nations. (Goyin or Babylonian)

All ancient Hebrews and Church fathers understood that Moses wrote an INVERTED form of the Babylonian myths. This was to warn those who had fallen into nusical idolatry with no redemption to protect very few from falling into the same Canaanite Baalism. Madison used to sing their children into Canaan Land.

"For only Og the king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Tobalkin ; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbah of the Ammonites? Nine cubits [i.e. about 13 feet / 4 meters] was its length, and four cubits its breadth, according to the common cubit." (Deuteronomy 3:11 RSV)

7497. rapha, raw-faw´; or raphah, raw-faw´; from 7495 in the sense of invigorating; a giant:giant, Rapha, Rephaim(-s). See also 1051.

Of the Transmission of the Art of Playing the Harp, that is to say of Music and Singing and Dancing. Yobal made reed instruments, and harps, and flutes, and whistles,and the devils went and dwelt inside them. When men blew into the pipes, the devils sang inside them, and sent out sounds from inside them. (Note: the "familiar spirit" of the Witch of Endor was an old "lifeless instrument" made of an old water or wineskin).

Yobal (Jubal). (Note: Jubilee or "a blast of trumpets" is from Jubal which means "to lead with triumph or pomp.") and Tobalkin (Tubal-Cain), the two brethren, the sons of Lamech, the blind man, who killed Cain, invented and made all kinds of instruments (or metal weapons) of music.

Cain, meaning a musical note, was "gotten from the Lord" meaning without Adam: Judas was OF that wicked one and he failed to musically triump over Jesus with his wind instrument and the JUDAS BAG. This triumph over or Vocal AND instrumental rejoicing including high sounding rhetoric--the meaning of a hypocrite--was outlawed from the Church in the Wilderness by Christ the Rock.

It is a mark of the WISE (Sophists: rhetoricians, singers, instrument players) from Who God HIDES Himself and the WORLD (Kosmos) for which Jesus will NOT even pray. Both the WISE and the WORLD mark the natural world under principalities and powers in high places (pulpits) and are doomed to obey their father who speaks on his own.

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Tobalkin (blacksmith taught brass or bell metal used to claim that the GODS were making that ringing sound: the meaning of SERPENT) made cymbals, and sistra, and tambourines (or drums). And lasciviousness and fornication increased among the children of Cain, and they had nothing to occupy them except fornication--now they had no obligation [to pay] tribute, and they had neither prince nor governor--and eating, and drinking, and lasciviousness, and drunkenness,and dancing and singing to instruments of music, and the wanton SPORTINGS of the devils,

(Israel: "rose up to play" and so did David in moving the ark from God's tabernacle to his)

The Anakim lived in the south, near Hebron. They were defeated by the Israelites under Joshua. "tall as the Anakim" (Deuteronomy 2:21 RSV) "And Joshua came at that time, and wiped out the Anakim from the hill country, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab, and from all the hill country of Judah, and from all the hill country of Israel; Joshua utterly destroyed them with their cities." (Joshua 11:21 RSV)

Thus the names Hagar, Kiib, Agubeni, Raabeni and Rauben (Reuben) are names of Arab tribes. These tribes Genesis describes as persons, not as tribes. Arba (the same name as the district Raab-en) was a Great Man among the (Sun-worshipping) Anakim.Joshua, Tit. 15; xxi. 21. The Hebrew Religion stepped out from the noblest side of the Dionysus- worship, influenced, no doubt, to IV PREFACE. some extent by Persian and Babylonian ideas, but still retaining the Phoenician impress. The name of the Phoenician Highest God is Bal, Bol, Bui, Sadak, Suduk, Adonz. THE MYSTERIES OE ADONI BY S. F. DUNLAP

(g) Azael, however, far from repenting, still offers women ornaments and many-colored robes with which to lead men astray.

For this reason, on the Day of Atonement, Israel's sins are heaped on the annual scapegoat; it is then thrown over a cliff to Azazel - as some call Azael.

See Nadab and Abihu.

After they rushed into the Holy places and burned incense it was a STRANGE ritual and STRANGE fire. The word indicates that they repeated one of their ancient pagan rituals.

After this God caused moses to institute the DAY OF ATONEMENT to atone even for the Tabernacle. The scapegoat was sent away. It was a sacrifice to Azael or the devil to forever teach the folly of Nadab and Abihu.

There was no need for a Day of Atonement until Nadab and Abihu brought on the sacrifice of a goat to the devil.

In the modern celebrations of Jubilee (Child of Madison) a fundamental element is to define the scapegoat and attempt to "send him away" while the keynoter climbs to the top of the mountain. Catholics claim that the Jubilee has as its fundamental meaning, the Atonement for sin.

The sacrifice of the Goats (capella latin) were to the demons and the burning was accompanied with MADISON'S proof authority but Christ in the prophets said that God had NOT commanded sacrifices or burnt offerings. When God ABANDONS you to the use of "machines for doing hard work" you know that the COMMAND is terminal.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Aug 26, 2012 8:19 PM

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Not a moron

August 27 2012, 10:42 AM 

Ken wrote

"This is what God promised Israel when the ELDERS fired God and demanded a Senior Pastor so they could worship like the nations. (Goyin or Babylonian)

All ancient Hebrews and Church fathers understood that Moses wrote an INVERTED form of the Babylonian myths. "

What he is trying to do is to go beyond just the mere restoration of the pattern on the New Testament church with argument from silence. Silence is a good start, but in itself is not sufficient to prove a practice is not authorized.

He is saying that objections to ecclesiastical change are rooted in the "types" of Mosaic writings that need not be repeated in the future.

That is, the key to understand current change practices is to recapture the past and to apply it to the present.

Congratulations for Ken for remembering the Old Testament.

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Not a Moron; Not a Mormon

August 27 2012, 11:14 PM 

Ken has researched and accumulated more historical facts about music and dancing and musical idolatry through the ages, as already revealed in Scripture, than have all the change agents in the brotherhood combined. In reality, it's not even a comparison.

Bruce White was employed as the interim preacher in the early few years of "recovery" from the church havoc in 2001. (The implementation of the services of the Praise Team at that time caused the havoc -- congregational singing, without the CHOIR comprised of both men and WOMEN "song" LEADERS, just wasn't good enough.) So, imagine the division among the ELDERS and among the members being caused by the Praise Team factor!!!!! A decade ago!

Now, a decade later, the ultimate goal of the Change Movement disciples is to implement the new "vision" -- INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC in the assembly of saints!!!

Under his watch, under Phil Barnes' watch!!!

(Interestingly, the attendance was somewhere in the 1500s or 1600s when senior minister Barnes succeeded Bruce White. Attendance improved to 1700-1800 early when many of the members from his former congregation "visited" [it now appears]. Of late attendance has been back down to 1500-1600 -- still about half of what it was during those days.)

Oh, yeah!!! Just re-direct or project the "responsibility" to "the shepherds" who "made" the executive, ecclesiastical decision that "it is NOT a salvation issue."

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Salvation Issue

August 28 2012, 9:57 AM 

No statement has more confusing aspects and arrogance than "it is not a salvation issue."

If a church has only one elder is that a salvation issue? If a church legislates that all who wait on the table wear coat and ties, is that a salvation issue? If someone believes just one incorrect teaching, is that a salvation issue?

If the elders don't allow a member to express his or her opinion, is that a salvation issue?

If the preacher wears a robe is that a salvation issue?

How many practices and beliefs are a "salvation issue" to the elders?

The elders would do well to eliminate the expression "salvation issue" from their vocabulary.

Is it a "salvation issue" when the elders say they can do anything that is not a "salvation issue."

"Salvation issue" blurs the distinction between individual salvation and the practices of the church structure. Forget all restoration and reformation of the church! These are not "salvation issues!" At least according to some elders.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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