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B
(no login)
98.87.24.237

Re: Re trying to rein in

January 21 2013, 3:22 PM 

William stated that, "If college students are generally anything they are generally anti-establishment...ACU's enrollment i[s] flat, down a little, so to entice students ACU is presenting an anti-church establishment face."

That sounds like ACU could be willing to sacrifice or downplay its worship and biblical principles to whatever degree is needed to get more worldly-oriented students interested in coming to ACU. In other words, perhaps the administration is thinking that a relaxed, casual, and "progressive" approach to religion with entertaining chapel sessions and fewer Bible classes would be be less threatening to potential applicants than a highly conservative, Bible-oriented curriculum featuring daily Bible classes and daily chapel sessions where preachers deliver full sermons.

 
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B
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74.179.14.203

Re: Re trying to rein in

January 23 2013, 10:45 AM 

When I was at David Lipscomb (then) College, students were required to take a class in the Bible for every day that they had secular classes and attend chapel on those same days. It made no difference if students were Bible/religion majors or not. Beyond the freshman year, not all Bible courses met every day. Some met twice a week (T-T), others three times a week (M-W-F). So, if students had secular classes every day (M-F), they sometimes had to take one Bible course that met M-W-F, another Bible course that met T-T, AND attend daily chapel with assigned seating, where "chapel checkers" kept a record of students' attendance according to seating charts. So, at least two hours of each day were devoted to Bible/chapel on top of students' secular subjects. Then, if students had three unexcused chapel absences in a quarter, they were put on probation for the next quarter and expelled if the infractions were repeated the following quarter.

This regimen would frighten away many potential applicants today. That's why DLU and some other "Christian" institutions have now, more or less, relaxed their religious requirements.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Re: ACU Lectures 2012

January 21 2013, 3:04 PM 

Donnie said "We consider you as a regular poster despite your vehement opposition to what conservative, mainline churches of Christ believe and teach,..."

You can say it, Donnie, until your blue in the face, but churches of Christ do NOT believe nor teach what you or the other posters here believe in. Public slander of brother and sisters that are trying to do His Will is not what ANY of the Lord's' work is all about.

That has already been proven many times here...over and over.

Call me Annie Mouse if you care...it is typical of the slander that you guys delve into when you get your back is up. It stays up quite a lot these days.

By "Anonymous" [pronounced "Annie Mouse"]
For those wondering: it's David Fields (Clemson, SC)


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Jan 21, 2013 3:19 PM


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Those Who Have Apostatized -- the Change Agents

January 21 2013, 3:41 PM 

Dave,

"Annie Mouse" will disappear once you begin identifying yourself as the poster.

No, Dave, it's the other way around. Fact is that churches of Christ do not teach what you and the change agents teach. The change agents are the ones with whom you align, and you with them are birds of a feather -- unbeknownst to you or not. A clear example is in regards to instrumental music. You and the change agents are attempting to restructure the church that Christ established. Except for the change agents in control of congregations that indulge in operating inanimate and lifeless musical devices in the assembly of saints, churches of Christ do not engage in such unauthorized man-made tradition. You give the impression that churches of Christ are instrumental music lovers when they're not.

Such is man's will, not God's will.

So, who has abandoned the truth and what the church of Christ believes and teaches? It's the change agents along with you, David Fields.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Re: ACU Lectures 2012

January 21 2013, 4:50 PM 

Donnie said "A clear example is in regards to instrumental music. You and the change agents are attempting to restructure the church that Christ established."

Donnie, you have already agreed and know that our church doesn't use instrumental music.
That would lend cause and example to the fact that you have once again fabricated a tall tale. The fact that I will not condemn those who use instruments of music is Scriptural. You have added instrumental music as an ADDITIONAL sin, in another words....YOU, a man, have added to God's Word something that wasn't there before. A man-made tradition will never lend it to be Scriptural. Just doesn't work that way.

The church that Christ established has never made instrumental music an issue. YOU have! Man has!

Posted by:
David Fields, Elder
Clemson, SC


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Jan 21, 2013 9:48 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.9.212

Re: ACU Lectures 2012

January 21 2013, 5:04 PM 

The church that Christ established has never made instrumental music an issue. YOU have! Man has!

The Qahal, synagogue, ekklesia or Church of Christ (the ROCK) outlawed "vocal or instrumental rejoicing including high-sounding rhetoric." That never changed in the history of the world until 1815.

It is true that those who IMPOSED the first organ over the objection of the leaders and recorded history MADE the instrument an issue. Furthermore, they did so because the CARPET BAGS were running low and the mega churches they had built were gonna be lost without some MUSICATORS to collect the entertainment crowd. After they were caught with their RANTS down, they began to lie about all of the mentions of an instrument." Rhetoricians, singers and instrument players are SORCERERS who had deceived the whole world. Jesus as the Alpha and Omega MADE it an issue.

If people have NEVER used instruments then it would be impossible for them to make it an issue.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.193.9.212 on Jan 21, 2013 5:05 PM


 
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Anonymous
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Re: ACU Lectures 2012

January 21 2013, 5:24 PM 

So, Ken, when Jesus sang....was He making it an issue also.
You said "The Qahal, synagogue, ekklesia or Church of Christ (the ROCK) outlawed "vocal or instrumental rejoicing including high-sounding rhetoric.""

So Jesus outlawed what he did?
Never mind Ken....I really wouldn't want to hear your rhetoric. It gets old. If you could actually do what you preach, and "speak that which is written," it would be good. So don't waste your time doing another song and dance....speaking of music.

Posted by:
David Fields, Elder
Clemson, SC


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Jan 21, 2013 9:46 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.9.212

Re: ACU Lectures 2012

January 21 2013, 5:45 PM 

In fact they HYMNED which in the Greek world is a PRAYER. They would have RECITED one of the Hallel psalms in a once each year practice: if you sang the hallel's daily you were considered an idolater.

The speaking in the synagogue is said to "be in the style of a schoolboy READING a hallel." You don't SANG prayers unless you are a pharisee.

Here is what an honest preacher would teach instead of looking for a legalistic loop hole: that defines a legalist.

[linked image]

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Re: ACU Lectures 2012

January 21 2013, 7:52 PM 

So when Jesus SPOKE, I guess that wasn't actually speaking, like when you say that when Jesus sang, He didn't actually sing.

You call it what you want. You do and say anything you want Ken. That may work in the world of sin, but not with the Word of God. You can't just change it to suit your needs.
The great Hallel indeed.

"While Psalms 120-136, all psalms of great praise, are collectively referred to as The Great Hallel, Psalm 136 itself is called The Great Hallel. Hallel is the Hebrew word for praise."
psalm 136
Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good.
His love endures forever.
2 Give thanks to the God of gods.
His love endures forever.
3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords:
His love endures forever.

4 to him who alone does great wonders,
His love endures forever.
5 who by his understanding made the heavens,
His love endures forever.
6 who spread out the earth upon the waters,
His love endures forever.
7 who made the great lights
His love endures forever.
8 the sun to govern the day,
His love endures forever.
9 the moon and stars to govern the night;
His love endures forever.

10 to him who struck down the firstborn of Egypt
His love endures forever.
11 and brought Israel out from among them
His love endures forever.
12 with a mighty hand and outstretched arm;
His love endures forever.

13 to him who divided the Red Sea[a] asunder
His love endures forever.
14 and brought Israel through the midst of it,
His love endures forever.
15 but swept Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea;
His love endures forever.

16 to him who led his people through the wilderness;
His love endures forever.

17 to him who struck down great kings,
His love endures forever.
18 and killed mighty kings
His love endures forever.
19 Sihon king of the Amorites
His love endures forever.
20 and Og king of Bashan
His love endures forever.
21 and gave their land as an inheritance,
His love endures forever.
22 an inheritance to his servant Israel.
His love endures forever.

23 He remembered us in our low estate
His love endures forever.
24 and freed us from our enemies.
His love endures forever.
25 He gives food to every creature.
His love endures forever.

26 Give thanks to the God of heaven.
His love endures forever.
Footnotes:

Ken, whatever you think of the quality of musical notes that came from our Lord as He SANG the words to this Great Hallel....we, that love the Lord, tend to Know that it was BEAUTIFUL....no matter how you try to spoil it for the rest of us. He showed us what real worship to God is.

"The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils."

The Merchant of Venice (V, i, 83-85)

Ken, I thought that since you enjoyed hearing more from man than God, that this might move your soul.

Posted by:
David Fields, Elder
Clemson, SC


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Jan 21, 2013 9:45 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.9.212

Re: ACU Lectures 2012

January 21 2013, 8:24 PM 

The Brisker Rav explains that the reason for these differences is based on a difference in the essence of each Hallel. The Hallel of the Regalim and the set days is a Hallel recited as an obligation to *read the Hallel*, an obligation in "Keri'ah" (through reading the Hallel, we arouse our love for Hashem for the miracle which He did for us). The other Hallel, said by the Jewish people at the occurrence of a miraculous salvation, is said not as an obligation of reading Hallel per se, but as a form of praise to Hashem, or "Shirah"

Therefore we are obligated to give thanks," which is the introduction to the recitation of Hallel. The recitation of Hallel was placed at the end of the Hagadah because it corresponds to the phrase "b'Tzeisi mi'Mitzrayim -- when I came forth out of Egypt," the sixth and final phrase of Shemos 13:8! The Hallel of the Seder commemorates the miracles of the redemption from Egypt and gratefully declares

117b HALACHAH: RECITING BIRKAS HA'MAZON OVER A CUP OF WINE OPINIONS: The Mishnah says that we recite Birkas ha'Mazon over a cup of wine on Pesach night


In this case the DICO or spake a HYMN (hallel) after the FRUIT OF THE VINE to repudiate the Jewish or Babylonian Passover. If you want to get DRUNK on the CUPS of the Jewish Passover where EVERYONE was to get drunk then you have my permission to SANG the hallel (probably 137), dance and play instruments. Then you must sober up until "next year same time."

I might sober you up faster if I tell you that SUNG is an english word. SING or SANG in the pagan world was defined as enchantment or witchcraft: that's why Paul said sing AND make melody (grace) IN YOUR HEARTS and directed ONLY to God.

Melody as tunefulness belongs to the nineteenth century everyone says and melody was not and is not related to HARMONY. Biblical harmony normally speaks of two voices moving in UNISON.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.9.212

Re: ACU Lectures 2012

January 21 2013, 8:26 PM 

Why we know that NO ONE ever sang any Biblical text including the Psalms.

Modern exegetes do not agree in this matter. For a time many would admit no metre at all in the Psalms. Davison (Hast., "Dict. of the Bible", s. v.) writes: "
.....though metre is NOT discernible in the Psalms,
.....it does not follow that rhythm is excluded".


This rhythm, however, "defies analysis and systematization". Driver ("Introd. to Lit. of O. T.", New York, 1892, 339) admits in Hebrew poetry
..... "no metre in the strict sense of the term".
..... Exegetes who find metre in the Psalms are of four schools,
..... according as they explain Hebrew metre by quantity, by the number of syllables,
.....by accent, or by both quantity and accent. (from The Catholic Encyclopedia)


ONLY THE PSALMS WERE CHANTED:

Up to the Edict of Milan (AD 313), the psalms were interspersed with lessons.

By the time of Gregory I (circa 600), the Mass and Office had assumed a fixed shape and antiphonal psalmody (the chanting of a psalm alternately by two choirs) and responsorial psalmody (when the congregation responded to a psalm sung by a cantor) were institutionalized.The distinction between these types later faded.

A Cantor is a Chanter: The Jews cantillated which is Paul's SPEAK. Both singing AND melody (or grace) was IN THE HEART to specificially exclude the external meaning of Psallo which is a warfare word.

You could not sing TUNEFULLY nor could you accompany ANY of "that which is written for our LEARNING" (Rom 15 which defines the assembly inclusively and exclusively.)

In the 16th century, Protestant churches encouraged congregational psalm singing by adopting metrical versions in the vernacular. An important early translation was Clèment Marot's, the basis of the Calvinist psalter. A repertory of tunes came into being; these were set in a simple chordal style in collections which included Loys Bourgeois's complete psalter (1563), widely recognized as a standard version. Some later settings were more contrapuntal; Le Jeune and others dropped the tunes and composed what amounted to free motets.

So, why don't we lock up people who are willing to steal the church house of widows so they and satisfy the lust of the eyes and ears and LIE about God COMMANDING them to do it?

As I have said, Christ in Jeremiah 23 says that those who speak out of their own imagination rather than the Word of God are guilty of blasphemy.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Re: ACU Lectures 2012

January 22 2013, 12:11 AM 

"As I have said, Christ in Jeremiah 23 says that those who speak out of their own imagination rather than the Word of God are guilty of blasphemy."

Ken, now that you've admitted it, are you to follow this with a repentance?

Posted by:
Dave Fields, Elder
Clemson, SC


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Jan 22, 2013 2:49 AM


 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.42.38

Re: ACU Lectures 2012

January 22 2013, 9:43 AM 

Ken said "SING or SANG in the pagan world was defined as enchantment or witchcraft:..."

Ken, in all of your meanderings, greek mythology and apollyon, commentaries and more over; personal opinions, you have never proven that....never!

It certainly isn't backed by the Word of God!

Posted by:
Dave Fields, Elder
Clemson, SC


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Jan 22, 2013 11:30 PM


 
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Scripture
(no login)
74.179.43.82

The Word of God

January 22 2013, 7:54 PM 

Some leave open that we have all the Word of God.

That maybe more books will come later.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.203.55

Re: The Word of God

January 22 2013, 9:56 PM 

Maybe "more books" have been around for centuries, but man was either too ignorant or too stupid to recognize they were inspired after all.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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