Re: Children perform with instrument track at Madison
|October 16 2012, 1:05 PM |
It was the Spirit OF Christ who through Ezekiel warned about the Babylonian practices. This is what Paul defines as "doubtful disputations" about private opinions in Romans 14. Of course, you cannot heap up enough "scholarship" to understand that Romans 14 gives them permission to IMPOSE what Christ, Paul and recorded history teaches. A Godly person would not have to be warned about the public spectacles.
Now, they boast about USING the fair ladies (and wannabes) to ACTUALLY PARTICIPATE in what Paul outlawed.
Re: Children perform with instrument track at Madison
|October 17 2012, 1:09 PM |
Jesus said that truth had been hidden in parables from the foundation of the World. This was to fool those who claim special powers (Isaiah 48). Peter said that Paul had some teachings that people TWIST to their own destruction. Paul said that Eve was wholly seduced in a sexual sense and we have the end-time rise of the Eve or Zoe Group teaching over the elders and training people how to add the performing arts which parse to the CAINITES as the agriculture tribes needing FERTILITY RITUALS.
For instance, in Isaiah 3, the Spirit OF Christ prophesied about women and children or women and the effeminate ruling over you. A woman who PRESIDES over with a hymn (prayer) is violating the Prophetic message of Eve and Miriam. That is left as a MARK and Paul did not PERMIT a woman to rule in the Speak-Out--Stand-Over sense. That is absolute.
When Paul spoke about the LAW he was speaking of the bad examples of women and the effeminate in pagan religions. Eve is called "mother of the living." Cybele among Paul's audience was the Mother Goddess of Beasts and Men. Eve or Zoe was identified as the "Beast and female teaching principle." The BEAST in Revelation is "a new style of singing or drama."
We have noted above the evils of the Jewish Synagogue which Paul speaks of in Romans 14. Lucretius has a direct parallel to the Mother of Harlots defined by John in Revelation 17-18 where the rhetoricians, singers and instrument players are called SORCERERS.
|October 18 2012, 2:04 PM |
From Ken: "Jesus said that truth had been hidden in parables from the foundation of the World. This was to fool those who claim special powers (Isaiah 48). Peter said that Paul had some teachings that people TWIST to their own destruction. "
Isaiah 48:3 I have declared the former things from of old; yea, they went forth out of my mouth, and I showed them: suddenly I did them, and they came to pass. 4Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass; 5therefore I have declared it to thee from of old; before it came to pass I showed it thee; lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them. 6Thou hast heard it; behold all this; and ye, will ye not declare it? I have showed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, which thou hast not known.
7They are created now, and not from of old; and before this day thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them. 8Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from of old thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou didst deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
So Jesus, Isaiah, and the Lord are cryptic. Cryptic="a puzzle"
Crypticism flows "under the radar," kind of like the book of Revelation, Paul's writings, and Jesus' parables.
He that is without the right heart, will hear, but never understand.
Re: Children perform with instrument track at Madison
|October 17 2012, 2:01 PM |
It is a FACT that when Paul prohibited stand-up and speak-up or preside-over roles in the assembly served two purposes:
1. It would prevent women clapping and waving UNholy hands and seducing the people away from the Word of God.
2. As one of those Parable or prophetic types this would be the MARK that the SEED of the serpent (Cainites, Eve, Zoe, Venus, Lucifer) was making an asault against the SEED (Godly) of Eve (Sethites)
Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.That SEX or Wholly Seduction of Paul.
Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
AFTER the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai and God sentenced the nation to be returned to Babylonianism and then Babylon, Moses wrote and INVERTED version of all of the common myths about the Mother Goddess beginning with Tehom or Tiamat. The time is ripe (end of the sixth day) for John's prophecy in Revelation 17f to be fulfilled.
When Paul said that women should be SILENT and SEDENTARY, never believe elders who tell you that Paul JUST FLAT LIED.
A Primary World-View
|October 18 2012, 11:30 AM |
Ken is, as I think he said, a "cryptic writer." But he is also concise. I originally thought he meant "concise," but now I think he may have said "cryptic," i.e. mysterious, puzzling, or secret. Many have stated his articles are puzzling, and difficult to follow, and this is what he means by "cryptic." Jesus taught in parables, so that some could see and some should not, so the cryptic approach is not new.
Maybe some of the following comments might add to the discussion.
Ken is a representative of primary (the Restoration used "primitive" to describe this view) application--the importance of role definition and basic role responsibilities of males and females, and of the necessity of male leadership at the top of a society or church. In times of national crisis, or identity-crises in churches as we now have, a "primitive" world-view and application may be essential to "restoration" and "redemption." As such, he would be a supporter of scripturally-based assertive elderships and an unemotional application of scriptural truth, in his view.
Of course, many can disagree in the particulars of scriptural truth, but a primitive world-view is one that has been with us as long a human society has existed, and will continued to be applied and to be successful as long as there is human society, and church organization.
In this sense, he is not "far-out" but an applier of a design that has been with us from the beginning of time. This is not a democratic approach, as valued by our society, but more like one that is ruled by "righteousness" from top to bottom. Some would call it "sexist" but I think that label can refer to all of us, at one time or another.
****Ken wrote: "Paul said that Eve was wholly seduced in a sexual sense and we have the end-time rise of the Eve or Zoe Group teaching over the elders and training people how to add the performing arts which parse to the CAINITES as the agriculture tribes needing FERTILITY RITUALS."
I want to de-crypticize the previous statement from Ken.
A. "Paul said that Eve was wholly seduced in a sexual sense." 1 Tim 2 discusses this point of view.
1 TIm. 2: 8 I desire therefore that the men pray in every place, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and disputing. 9In like manner, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefastness and sobriety; not with braided hair, and gold or pearls or costly raiment; 10but (which becometh women professing godliness) through good works. 11Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection. 12But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve; 14and Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression: 15but she shall be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety. ASV
The TNIV (Bible translation) translated "men" in verse 8 as "men" as does the KJV and ASV, so this is a sex-specific word and not referring to "humans", i.e. inclusive of both men and women. TNIV translates "men" as "humans" or "mankind" where that is the intended meaning, in other words, gender specific. So when "men" is used in these verses it is referring to males, and "women" of course refers to females. So verse 8 refers to males in the worship. Whether it also applies to females is not clear, but in the least males are asked when they lift up their hands that their hands should be "holy," that is without anger or disputing. This refers to the "roosterism" that is sometimes present under male leadership--Elders, take note. This refers to the chief goal or man, that is "power." Multitudes of scriptural passages warn again the abuse of power within the family, the church, and the nation. When men become dysfunctional because of abuse of power, then women have been known historically to take over. This is true even in the animal kingdom.
According to his passage, women, unlike men who are drawn to POWER, are drawn to impression, subtlety, and OSTENTATION. Therefore the passage says that women are to be ostentatious on the basis of inward purity. Quietness is the characteristic most elevated in the passage. There is a reference back to the POWER of the man, in verses 11 and 12. It is an open question in the verse, concerning the situation in which the leadership of the man is inept, then should the women remain quiet and under subjection and dominion.
There are also level of application that should be considered. Are these rules for the church, the family, the community, or the society? Or for some combination of these? This passage does apply the principles to worship, but the application is likely wider with the support for the position being, (1) that the order of creation places man first, and (2) that woman was deceived first and not man. The verses do have their redeeming reason for their application, and that reason is so that "she shall be saved through her child-bearing." That redeeming quality is that when child-bearing (and implied child-raising) goes astray then all the level of application are in serious trouble: church, family, community, society.
B. Ken continued, writing: "and we have the end-time rise of the Eve or Zoe Group "
The word EVE in Genesis refers to "life-giving" and sometimes EVE is used as a synonym for life, or ZOE. ZOE is from ancient Greek , meaning spritual life, in contrast to Bios, meaning bological life), an æon in some gnostic belief systems. I see where he gets his "end-time rise" information from Isaiah 3:12-14. Note "women rule over them" in verse 12.
Isa. 3: 12As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they that lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. 13Jehovah standeth up to contend, and standeth to judge the peoples. 14Jehovah will enter into judgment with the elders of his people, and the princes thereof: It is ye that have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses: 15what mean ye that ye crush my people, and grind the face of the poor? saith the Lord, Jehovah of hosts. 16Moreover Jehovah said, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with outstretched necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet; 17therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and Jehovah will lay bare their secret parts.
The characteristics of the "Eve" group is in verses 18-23:
18In that day the Lord will take away the beauty of their anklets, and the cauls, and the crescents; 19the pendants, and the bracelets, and the mufflers; 20the headtires, and the ankle chains, and the sashes, and the perfume-boxes, and the amulets; 21the rings, and the nose-jewels; 22the festival robes, and the mantles, and the shawls, and the satchels; 23the hand-mirrors, and the fine linen, and the turbans, and the veils. 24And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet spices there shall be rottenness; and instead of a girdle, a rope; and instead of well set hair, baldness; and instead of a robe, a girding of sackcloth; branding instead of beauty. 25Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.
C. Ken said that they would be "teaching over the elders". Certainly when men capitulate their leadership roles by either lifting "unholy hands", perverting the life-giving and child-raising role of women, fail to insure assistance to the poor, and their general leadership role, this gives rise to female ascendancy.
D. Ken further said "and training people how to add the performing arts which pars
Some cut off in above post,( to add to above)
|October 18 2012, 2:25 PM |
D. Ken further said "and training people how to add the performing arts which parse to the CAINITES as the agriculture tribes needing FERTILITY RITUALS."
He refers to the descendants of Cain, whose worship was unacceptable, in respect to his grain offering. This is a direct tie-in to agriculture worship, and the fertility gods that were associated with that worship. Under this system, there was temple prostitution and sometimes child sacrifice.
The rule of the male was considered important to regulate female sexuality. This explains why, in our "modern" society, we continues to have rules surrounding the female more than the male--rules about abortion, laws highly punitive of rape, harshness against mothers that slaughter their babies. As in the animal kingdom, males are brighter color and physically challenging to invaders and outsiders, such that they are slaughtered first; all to save the females that populate and promise a new generation. We can picture an outer protective ring of males, and an inner but protected set of females.
The writer of 1 Timothy and Isaiah, both agree, I think that role definition is important to both males and females.
Re: Some cut off in above post,( to add to above)
|October 18 2012, 2:49 PM |
Isn't is amazing that the "males" are so anxious to be killed off? Elders should be masculine enough to do battle with principalities and powers in high places. Elders have to be HIGHLY MASCULINE to "teach that which is written."
Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
elegkh , disgrace, put to shame, muthon e. treat a speech with contempt.
2. test, bring to the proof, b. put right, correct, prove by a reductio ad impossibile,
No one would be accused of being primitive if they read "Plato as it has been written." Elders don't have any other authority until Jesus comes.
Nothing in culture (culture is always changing) can possibly require that anyone do more than "use one mind and one mouth to teach that which is written for our learning."
I'm not sure that preachers know the difference between a preacher and God.
|October 18 2012, 2:54 PM |
Yes, you are right about authority. "All authority in heaven and in earth has been given to me." Matt. 28.
Man (and woman) has none.
Re: A Primary World-View
|October 18 2012, 2:36 PM |
You said it perfectly. Thanks, that's the response one needs to dialog or "do church." It further proves that you know where to look. Those who don't know where to look almost never ask because they don't care.
We have discussed some of these "crypts" in the past but most people jump to the end so they can mock or fall back into the "worship" mode.
The ZOE word pops up all through the ancient literature and Paul understood the difference between eating an "apple" and being wholly seduced. Snakes never walked on two feet and talk but musical enchanters do.
Elders and preachers are never chosen to be a discipler among disciple.
The ancient writers may not be right but they wrote what people understood from reading "all about Eve." Sophia and Zoe are treated as goddesses by the Female Methodist Clergy.
That should make us wonder when people call their group the ZOE GROUP or the HALAL GROUP or THEATRON.
When the church loses its identity
|October 18 2012, 2:51 PM |
The lack of primary analysis, loss of reasoning from basic fundamentals, is the danger of the Churches of Christ falling into "community church" delirium.
We lose our credibility, our counter to a corrupt national system, our support for and defense of "differentness".
The appalling lack of knowledge of Restoration, Reformation, Early Church, and Medieval history is destructive and practically deadly.
These shortcomings hurt our understanding of the New Testament.
The tie-in of scriptures with the knowledge of Antiquity hinders our understanding of the Old Testament.
Re: When the church loses its identity
|October 18 2012, 3:43 PM |
we should never assume that the masses of religionists are just biblically, historically and ethically ignorant. Jesus said that the Devil speaks on his own and his sons don't have much option. All of the space and supernatural movies have made it dangerous to really believe that there are evil forces at work in the universe.
Quoting Rick Atchley etal it is clear that they have DELIBERATELY twisted Scripture and seduced the youth to want and need music even in church time "to teach the youth to leave our movement." Anyone who can read Scripture and history knows that they have to be terminally ignorant or terminally evil. Jesus warned us not to go out there.
Jesus also warned us that they will not hear the truth.
Phil Barnes Missed It or Promoted It--Which One?
|November 11 2012, 11:58 PM |
In today's sermon (11/11/12) titled "Ignition: Flame Retardant," Barnes quoted from Daniel 3:1,4-5. (Note that I have frequently used this passage to prove the evil use of musical instruments that certain of God's "followers" have "borrowed" from the pagans.)
Daniel 3:1-10 (KJV)
How could Barnes miss to associate the use of musical machines as a form of musical idolatry with the idolatrous worship of the golden image?
-  Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon.
-  Then Nebuchadnezzar the king sent to gather together the princes, the governors, and the captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellers, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, to come to the dedication of the image which Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.
-  Then the princes, the governors, and captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellers, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, were gathered together unto the dedication of the image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up; and they stood before the image that Nebuchadnezzar had set up.
-  Then an herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O people, nations, and languages,
-  That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:
-  And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.
-  Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down and worshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.
-  Wherefore at that time certain Chaldeans came near, and accused the Jews.
-  They spake and said to the king Nebuchadnezzar, O king, live for ever.
-  Thou, O king, hast made a decree, that every man that shall hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, shall fall down and worship the golden image:
Or, was Phil Barnes reminding the congregants that instrumental music is soon coming to the Worship Entertainment Center NEAR you?
|November 12 2012, 12:13 AM |
I noticed also that it was right in his face.
Hey, I've got a good idea--bring back the Northfield preacher, and although the congregation there has grown by about 25 percent each year, and let him have Madison.
He would even take the time to notice the "musical instruments" and say that this was not a correlated factor.
Then they can expect to grow 25 percent.
Even better idea
|November 12 2012, 6:31 PM |
Donnie and Scripture, I have an even better idea. Why don't both of you preach at both services on a given Sunday and set this congregation on the straight and narrow. That way you can reach most of the members, as everyone is not always there, but it would be more beneficial than just using this web site. Although I still check in occasionally, most of the members that I speak to about this site respond with "say what". It is amazing when one is so absorbed with one subject you can only hear one thing in an entire sermon and still take it out of context. Donnie, I guess since the service was offically over and it was during the announcements that the Veterans were recognized on Veterans Day that it was acceptable.
By the way, the next time you are so bored with the service that you have to count how many times a certain word is used in a prayer or sermon try counting the word the. That should keep you busy for a while.
I keep telling myself not to respond to these post but sometimes I just can't help myself. I hope you understand as I'm retired, winter is coming on, it gets dark early and sometimes I'm just plain bored. And as entertaining as it is most of the time and no matter how bored I get, I still skip over Ken's post.
Re: Even better idea
|November 12 2012, 9:15 PM |
Doesn't sound boring to me Jimmy Joe: If I could just be able to attend I bet I would get aroused by the gyrating girls. I don't think the screechy falsetto boys could do much for me.
I would have to ask the elders to do what one pastor wants to do: Just slip LSD into the communion juice and dispose of all of the LEGALISTIC HARD WORK learning, rehearsing, paying the make-up man and the hair dresser and then performing. Afterward, to fill in the week off to Dunkin Donuts to have a confession and flogging session over why Timmy Tinkle mussed up the polyrythmic hand clapping. Did I tell you that the clapping word is also used for vomiting? Hand clapping was ALWAYS to rebuke the loosers.
That's why your Master Elder Fella is so mad at being corrected that he will INSIST on increasing the PAIN and lying that the feeling is a spirit person messing with their private parts.
Besides, Jimmy Joy, I don't write with you in mind: I don't want to be charged with snapse collapse
Re: Even better idea
|November 14 2012, 1:18 PM |
Your attempt at humor addressing my intelligence was pretty sad. Although you got the name right at the beginning of your post either your eyesight or typing got progressively worse at the end. I guess it could just be advancing senility. As far as attending Madison and getting aroused, I feel that the only thing that would get you aroused is your own ego. You may respond if you so desire but this is my last post concerning you. I appologize for getting personal but my defense mechanism kicked in. I have wasted enough time today and now have better things to do.
|November 12 2012, 11:01 PM |
The really bizarre event and tragic is that the Armistice was declared to occur on that day in 1918, and all knew that it was coming. The armistice was to take place at 11:00 a.m.
Killing continued right up to that minute.
Even with all knowing that peace was at 11:00 a.m., there continued to be attacks. Generals ordered their troops to take additional ground. And for what reason?
Our prayer go out for our Veterans. We wish them the best. But Armistice is desirable.
Re: Phil Barnes Missed It or Promoted It--Which One?
|November 12 2012, 12:31 PM |
Donnie you have two options:
First, is it possible that Phil is trying to warn the pseudo-elders a Biblical elder gets no opinions: the command is to teach that which has been taught.
Second, if my thesis holds fast, the people KNOW that they are driving the people into idolatry and in their perverted minds use the Daniel bowing to "Lucifer" as AUTHORITY to go and do likewise.
Remember that God abandoned the Jacob-cursed Levites to worship the same starry host as in Babylon.
If being abandoned is not enough, the Spirit of Christ in the prophets says that God DID NOT command the king (serpent-elder), kingdom, temple, animal sacrifices or 'instrumental worship.' God commanded the Levite "praise team" to stand in military ranks and KILL any godly Jew who came near or into any of their "holy places."
And Rick Atchley etal said that "a" spirit told them that GOD commanded instrumental praise for this church and WE will not be disobedient.
The result is that they are strongly deluded and the PROOF is "lying wonders" meaning performance operations CLAIMING that they are from God. In fact, they are not making any decisions: at the same time Christ returns to remove the slick preachers, singers and instrument players (sorcerers) out of the church He also visits for the last time and removes the lamps or "seven spirits of God" all spirits OF Divine truth.
The "praise" word is THE MARK that they are bowing to the Sun God in response to the sound of the instruments.
Re: Phil Barnes Missed It or Promoted It--Which One?
|November 21 2012, 5:20 PM |
You will remember that Christ defined the Synagogue or Church in the wilderness:
HE voted to stop the flute and harp-girls
So, as decent people, they could hold conversation.
Paul commanded the same thing which ANY DECENT society would do unless they wanted to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter. Don't be mistaken, this can NOT just be a case of ignorance.
[347c] But if he does not mind, let us talk no more of poems and verses, but consider the points on which I questioned you at first, Protagoras, and on which I should be glad to reach, with your help, a conclusion. For it seems to me that arguing about poetry is comparable to the wine-parties of common market-folk. These people, owing to their inability to carry on a familiar conversation over their wine by means of their own voices and discussions--
James A. Towle, Commentary on Plato: Protagoras
Sumposiois: this custom is followed in Xen. Symp. 2. 1 erchetai tis autois epi kômon (revel) Surakosios anthrôpos, echôn te aulêtrida agathên kai orchêstrida (dancing-girl) tôn ta thaumata dunamenôn poiein kai paida panu ge hôraion kai panu kalôs kitharizonta kai orchoumenon. These show their skill during the whole banquet. Plato, however, has the same view as the one here, when he says Symp. 176 e eisêgoumai tên men arti eiselthousan aulêtrida chairein ean, aulousan heautêi, ê an boulêtai tais gunaixi tais endon, hêmas de dia logôn allêlois suneinai to têmeron
[347d] such is their lack of education--put a premium on flute-girls by hiring the extraneous voice of the flute at a high price, and carry on their intercourse by means of its utterance. But where the party consists of thorough gentlemen who have had a proper education, you will see neither flute-girls nor dancing-girls nor harp-girls, but only the company contenting themselves with their own conversation, and none of these fooleries and frolics--each speaking and listening decently in his turn,
suneimi: To be joined with, Intercourse is II. to have intercourse with a person, live with hêdonê, desires after pleasure, pleasant lusts, voluptuosus,
You will notice here and ALMOST all recorded history: no STRAIGHT male could ever be found dead singing, clapping or playing an instrument and gyrating around the state. History notes that such pathetic males were "drunk, perverted or just having fun mocking." In decent society
Plato in Republic Book III did not envision (nor did the Bible so translate) that such piping and strumming have any "abiding value" but as the Septuagint translates Amos, music was just "fleeting pleasure." In no sense did Plato permit the parasites of Lucian to take the place of the god:
Always Denounced: "If a man, then, it seems, [398a] who was capable by his cunning of assuming (pantomimic art) every kind of shape and imitating all things should arrive in our city, bringing with himself
the poems which he wished to exhibit, we should fall down and worship him as a holy and wondrous and delightful creature,
but (we) should say to him that there is no man of that kind among us in our city,
nor is it lawful for such a man to arise among us,
and we should send him away to another city,
after pouring myrrh down over his head and
crowning him with fillets of wool (taring and feathering him)
Always Approved: but we ourselves, for our souls' good, should continue to employ the more austere and less delightful poet and tale-teller,
who would imitate the diction of the good man and would tell his tale
in the patterns which we prescribed in the beginning,
when we set out to educate our soldiers."
We are not saying that this is the problem in all of the fractured churches of Christ: we are just saying that Bible and history knows of no exception.
Jesus OUTLAWED this as the laded burden and Paul outlawed it as SELF-pleasure as opposed to edification or education.
Always: music to rescue a failed institution
|November 26 2012, 1:49 PM |
Arniobus and all of the church scholars understood that institutions pretending to be Christian always fail because the performers are neutered by the Mother Goddess.