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(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Children perform with instrument track at Madison

November 26 2012, 9:34 PM 

Catullus,Carmina 63 Notes
Thy timbrel, Mother Cybele, the firstings of thy rite,
And as her tender finger-tips on bull-back hollow rang
She rose a-grieving and her song to listening comrades sang.

"Up Gallae, hie together, haste for Cybele's deep grove,
Hie to the Dindymnean dame, ye flocks that love to rove;
The which affecting stranger steads as bound in exile's brunt
My sect pursuing led by me have nerved you to confront

The raging surge of salty sea and ocean's tyrant hand
As your hate of Venus' [ZOE] hest your manly forms unmann'd,
Gladden your souls, ye mistresses, with sense of error bann'd.
Drive from your spirits dull delay, together follow ye
To hold of Phrygian goddess, home of Phrygian Cybebe,
Where loud the cymbal's voice resounds with timbrel-echoes blending,
And where the Phrygian piper drones grave bass from reed a-bending,

Where toss their ivy-circled heads with might the Maenades
Where ply mid shrilly lullilooes the holiest mysteries,
Where to fly here and there be wont the she-god's vaguing train,
Thither behoves us lead the dance in quick-step hasty strain."

Hdt. 1.155 [3] O King, what you say is reasonable. But do not ever yield to anger, or destroy an ancient city that is innocent both of the former and of the present offense. For the former I am responsible, and bear the punishment on my head; while Pactyes, in whose charge you left Sardis, does this present wrong; let him, then, pay the penalty.
[4] Grant, then, forgiveness to the Lydians,
and to make sure of their never rebelling against thee, or alarming thee more,
send and forbid them to keep any weapons of war,
command them to wear tunics under their cloaks, and to put buskins upon their legs,
and make them bring up their sons to cithern-playing (Kitharizein), singing (psallein),
and shop-keeping (Hucksterism). So wilt thou soon see them become women instead of men,
and there will be no more fear of their revolting from thee

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(no login)

Promotion at Madison

November 27 2012, 3:01 PM 

The Sr. Minister has been "promoted" to Associate Minister.

He stated that he was in full agreement with the program of the Elders. The elders announced that they had accepted his "resignation" but no compliment was forthcoming.

The elders laid their hands on him at both services.

Afterwards his greatest supporters were crying.

All power flowed to the elders--the Sr. Minister, now Associate Minister, was the recipient.

If the minister had only replied "keep your hands off me" most in the audience would have cheered.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Promotion at Madison

November 27 2012, 11:39 PM 


Am I comprehending this promotional occasion? You see, I wasn't there this past Sunday to witness the ceremony. There's so much I am missing here, I think. Maybe I should purchase BOTH the video of the "early services" and the video of the "contemporary services."

Which laying on of hands by the elders was more effective between the two ceremonies:

(1) the ORIGINAL (at 8:00) "laying on of hands" ceremony?
------------------ or -----------------
(2) the REPEATED`(at 10:30) "laying on of hands" ceremony?

Is the "Youth Minister" now going to be the Sr. Minister? Or, should we keep guessing or waiting?

Just what's happening? Perhaps, it's time to reinstate a more up-to-date: WHAT HAPPENED AT MADISON THIS WEEK -- The Timeline (Part XII)

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(no login)

Re: Promotion at Madison

November 28 2012, 2:16 AM 

Donnie, you may have been missing alot but I doubt if you have been missed at all. As for scriptures interpertation of this past Sunday concerning the Elders laying their hands on Phil and praying for him, his fictional speculation is his biased opinion. I'm sure you know the cliche about opinions.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Promotion at Madison

November 29 2012, 1:44 AM 

Jimmy Joe,

Great point about me not "being missed at all."

I like it just that way. [Sorry to disappoint you. sad.gif ]

Regarding "laying on of hands": Certain elders have either charismatic or Community Church-driven background. Why should that be a surprise?

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(no login)

Which more effective?

November 28 2012, 5:38 AM 

I did hear that the other service also "laid on hands."

Maybe the elders could get one of those "e-meters" from the Scientologists to gauge the effectiveness of each laying on.

Some speculate a new Pulpit (Sr) minister will soon be appointed, or that (s?)he has already been appointed. And that a super-worship leader will be chosen at the same time. Wah-lah!

Just so that there is no violation of a "salvation issue."

Others speculate that Northfield will provide the new minister. Oh, I forgot, some call this person a "pastor."

I would speculate that the now demoted preacher was not completely defrocked so that the attendance would not take a nose dive.

They had better get a good one now, because attendance will really nose-dive with just one more mistake.

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(no login)


November 28 2012, 6:05 AM 

This laying on of hands is maybe to the elders a grace to the defrocked preacher.

But I think it also is the harbinger of the lowered charisma that they give him, without maybe intentionally wanting to do that. They have weakened the message from the pulpit, and place themselves in "lording it over the flock."

It is the departure of the power of the word toward the power of ecclesiastical office.

This unfortunate preacher lost many opportunities to get his own steam with the word of God, catering to the programs of the elder bishops.

Honestly, I believe that the solution to Madison is to remove all the elders, place it under a responsible group of individuals who believe in equality in Christ, and instrument a way to remove these offensive vipers when they no longer of "good report" or "above reproach." The congregation (and preacher like Timothy) would help determine those "above reproach." See 1 Tim. 3.

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(no login)

Re: Elders

November 28 2012, 11:49 AM 

Given the situation at hand, especially in "changed" churches, it seems that this "laying on of hands" business is just a lot of window dressing.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Elders

November 28 2012, 12:10 PM 

In Ephesians 4 Jesus GIFTED certain men including Elders as Pastor-Teachers commanded to teach that which had been taught. These men were supernaturally gifted until the record written in PARTS was complete. These gifts would cease once the authentic record was left as their "memory" of eye- and ear-- witnesses.

The laying on of hands ASSUMED that the elders still had this temporary power: healing the sick or ORDAINING others. Ordaining simply meant pointing to a person for recognition who was already "laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching." That certainly proves that these elders are NOT ordainable because they preach anti-Biblical and anti-Christian junk.

The elders brought in Kregg Hood to PROMISE and THREAT the Tithing big fat lie. Kregg boasts that in Africa some of them are actually raising the dead and he wants that to happen in the Church of Christ. If an elder has the authority to TRANSMIT power through their hands then certainly we should see some healing of missing limbs or even raising the dead.

This is deadly presumption and they WILL get hurt. It is a visual aid to PROVE to the "audience" that THEY have power others do not have.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Elders who LAY HANDS on other people's property.

November 28 2012, 10:32 PM 

These people read or studied a bit of the Bible but they missed the biggest lesson I learned in college. Always READ the passage and try to separate the thoughts. Next, always DEFINE the words. I affirm that there is no one of the violent RESTRUCTURE SECT who can ever read the Bible. That's ok: we are all DISCIPLES but when a person presumes to operate on your brain because he saw a brain in a medical book then never, ever drink his KoolAid.

There are several "laying on of hands" but the only GOOD case is of Apostles or Apostle-ordained elders "already laboring to the point of preaching and teaching without an institute." Don't think it strange that Dozier and the other ex Jubilee crowd have--I have heard--ordained one another as an apostle. This is the Belmont contribution bonded with Lucado and Shelly and Flatt in the Jubilee movement intending to do an end-run around the older members. In fact, the MISSIONAL church idea restores the FIVE-FOLD ministry including Apostles and Prophets who must NEVER be questioned. Here is how the elders have LAID HANDS ON other people's property and lives in a VIOLENT way.

[linked image]

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(no login)

Re: Children perform with instrument track at Madison

November 28 2012, 6:10 PM 

"Honestly, I believe that the solution to Madison is to remove all the elders, place it under a responsible group of individuals who believe in equality in Christ, and instrument a way to remove these offensive vipers when they no longer of "good report" or "above reproach." The congregation (and preacher like Timothy) would help determine those "above reproach." See 1 Tim. 3.

Excellent thought there Scripture. Bet you wouldn't be opposed as to being ONE of those "responsible group of individuals." I have seen your brand of equality and with your lobbying power you need not worry. You would right the ship and make the paths straight again, I am sure. You certainly, also, wouldn't oppose that you have your turn in making sure of the ones selected to be of "good report' and "above reproach." You have it all mapped out.....indeed.

Maybe....just maybe......there would be some elders who drift over to the new responsible group of individuals who believe in equality in Christ? Or maybe you would make sure that this doesn't happen? Watch out for those kinks in the plan Scripture.

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(no login)


November 28 2012, 11:27 PM 

Has anyone that has posted on this site ever attended a congregation of a church and had a gun held to their head and told that they must continue to attend regardless if they think the teachings of that congregation are in error? I never have.

Evidently there are some that are happy being chronic complainers.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Another Question

November 29 2012, 1:33 AM 

Jimmy Joe,

Christ prayed for oneness (John 17).

The apostle Paul besought his brethren in the first century "that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment" (I Cor. 1:10).

Too bad that Paul is not with us in this present generation. But if he were to face the change agents of our time busily assaulting and intruding upon the affairs of congregations and dividing the church, I think he would do more than just be "chronically complaining."

Madison is painfully going through troubling times again. Unnecessarily!!!

Evidently there are some that are happily accepting and unconcerned that the leadership has not learned its lessons from not so long ago.

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(no login)


November 29 2012, 9:16 AM 

We're simply requesting that all members of the church are honored for their "royal priesthood" and their rights to be honored and for them to be respected.

The congregation should have the right to remove elders. And to appoint elders. Madison is "old-fashioned" because they cling to a model that is disastrous. We're asking that the historial congregational nature of the churches of Christ be restored at Madison.

Change by steps, boiling the frog, is basically dishonest and places the leadership over and above the congregation, and in essence establishes a popery.

Otherwise, Madison ought to change its name to the "Madison Presbyterian Church" because this would represent them better than "Madison Church of Christ."

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(no login)

Re: Presbyters

November 29 2012, 12:11 PM 

Perhaps "changed" churches secretly want a dictatorship in which the pastor and/or elders reign supreme over the congregation. Anyone who complains or resists the mandates of the "anointed ones" is "asked" (pressured) to leave that congregation.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Children perform with instrument track at Madison

November 30 2012, 9:49 PM 

God only accepts WORDS: the fruit of our lips. He does not accept the works of OUR hands: pointing, raising, clapping or picking.

Yet heard I the voice of his words: and
..... when I heard the voice of his words,
..... then was I in a deep sleep on my face,
..... and my face toward the ground. Dan 10:9

And, behold, an hand touched me,
..... which set me upon my knees and
..... upon the palms of my hands. Dan 10:10

And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved,
..... understand the words that I speak unto thee,
..... and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent.
..... And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling. Dan 10:11

Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel:
..... for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand,
..... and to chasten thyself before thy God,
..... thy words were heard,
.....and I am COME FOR THY WORDS. Dan 10:12

Nehemiah 6:7 And thou hast also appointed prophets to preach of thee at Jerusalem,
saying, There is a king in Judah: and now shall it be reported to the king according to these words.
Come now therefore, and let us take counsel together.

Hosea 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him,
.....Take away all iniquity,
.....and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

The command is the Fruit of the LIPS: not the lips of the FRUITS.

Hos 14:3 Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses:
.....neither will we say any more to the work of our hands,
.....Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.

H4639 ma aseh mah-as-eh' From H6213 ; an action (good or bad); generally a transaction; abstractly activity; by implication a product
(specifically a poem) or (generally) property, CRAFTSMANSHIP.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Adults Who Perform on Stage

January 1 2013, 1:27 AM 

First, know that I had a procedure [SK: superficial keratectomy] done on my right eye some 6 weeks ago due to a disorder known as corneal abrasion or recurrent corneal erosion. It's been a very slow recovery as expected.

I'm not seeing that well at this point. So, correct me if what I saw this past Sunday at Madison was a total distortion. There were 5 individuals "worship-leading" on stage. At first, I thought one of them was the one long-haired male, one was a lady-in-pants with short hair, the others were males.

Then, I changed my opinion -- that there were two ladies-in-pants worship-leading on stage with the men.

So, now it appears that this format of worshiping with "praise songs" led by men and women on stage may now be an almost-regular feature in "contemporary worship." At Madison.

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(no login)

Women in Pants

January 1 2013, 12:41 PM 

Just curious? What's your obsession with pointing out the women "in pants?" I understand the women part and view of women's role. But what does her having pants on verses a skirt, dress, etc... have to do with anything? Seems that any time you mention women it's not just women but "women in pants." To my know there is not mention of dress code, other than modesty mentioned in the NT.

Just curious?

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Women in Pants

January 1 2013, 1:13 PM 

It makes the portrayal of performances in a "supposedly" non-charismatic, non-entertaining assembly more illustrative, contrasting, visualization-effective.

Some call it "praise worship with feelings"; some call it "religious entertainment at the worship center"; some call it "musical idolatry"; some call it "made-for-TV worship"; some call it "culture-driven, feel-good worship"; "some call it "identifying with the Community Church/Charismatic moves"; etc.

There's no obsession [except for better "visual effects" when men and WOMEN PERFORM on STAGE to "God's glory" (they say)].

\o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ + handclapping + individually hand-held microphones. Seriously, why should it take 5 men and women to PERFORM the simple task [if at all] of/by someone to start the pitch of a song and sit down, then let the congregational singing continue?????????

Curiosity satisfied? I hope so. happy.gif

Good question, and thanks for asking.

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Jan 1, 2013 3:45 PM

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(no login)

Re: Women in Pants

January 2 2013, 12:34 AM 

Perhaps, Donnie is sending a strong message by "skirting" the issue? happy.gif

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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