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B
(no login)
74.179.210.229

Re: Psalm 150 DOES command instrumental HALAL to those abandoned

September 28 2012, 8:47 PM 

Wouldn't Racnor like to change the Bible by having the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command deleted? Oh wait...that's not necessary, because Racnor and Dave already ignore that command by supporting instrumental music in worship.

BTW, it looks like Racnor (and his ghost) decided not to leave after all. happy.gif

 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.112.142

Busting Bubbles

September 28 2012, 9:44 PM 

"B" relates the "neither-add-to-nor-take-from command" to Deuteronomy (4:2) and Revelation (22:18-19). I am a bit surprised "B" would use an OT reference. So I guess Psalm 150 is fair play. The inspired writer says:


Praise the Lord.
Psalm 150


1 Praise the Lord.


Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.
2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4 praise him with timbrel and dancing,
praise him with the strings and pipe,
5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.


6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.

Praise the Lord.


"B's" other reference comes from the book of Revelation. We are warned to not add or take away from this book. This means the Harps in Heaven cannot be removed from this book as some would have it.

God approves of IM. God did not condemn IM, "B" did.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.78.212

Re: Busting Bubbles

September 28 2012, 10:07 PM 

Praise has nothing to do with congregational singing. Neo Babylonianism is marked by hiring an Ecomiast: in Babylon that included singers, musicians, cooks, dancers, soothsayers, prostitutes, Jesters etal.

http://www.piney.com/MuEncomiast.html

The musicators CLAIM that they can lead you into the presence of God or that they can make God come into and REST on your praises. Praising God is legalism: it believes that it MUST praise the gods to aid them into doing their work and not failing--again.

Praise, like halal, is also a threat to people or a god: If you don't give me goodies (lambs, members, dollars, fame) it just MIGHT take my worship to someone else. The musicators claim that the old system didn't work so they deceive people into seeking another god. In the case of the changelings - hirelings it is the SAME gods God abandoned Israel to without any redemption.

[linked image]
[linked image]


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.78.212

Re: Busting Bubbles

September 28 2012, 10:08 PM 

Praise has nothing to do with congregational singing. Neo Babylonianism is marked by hiring an Ecomiast: in Babylon that included singers, musicians, cooks, dancers, soothsayers, prostitutes, Jesters etal.

http://www.piney.com/MuEncomiast.html

The musicators CLAIM that they can lead you into the presence of God or that they can make God come into and REST on your praises. Praising God is legalism: it believes that it MUST praise the gods to aid them into doing their work and not failing--again.

Praise, like halal, is also a threat to people or a god: If you don't give me goodies (lambs, members, dollars, fame) it just MIGHT take my worship to someone else. The musicators claim that the old system didn't work so they deceive people into seeking another god. In the case of the changelings - hirelings it is the SAME gods God abandoned Israel to without any redemption.

[linked image]
[linked image]


 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.112.142

Re: Busting Bubbles

September 29 2012, 12:04 PM 

[linked image]

"B", you're lucky, I'll be here for a few more days! However, don't expect much today. happy.gif

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.248.65

Re: Busting Bubbles

September 29 2012, 2:41 PM 

During Racnor's long absence, he'll have plenty of opportunity to consider the wisdom of applying the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command to his Christian life. If he continues to endorse instrumental music in Christian worship, however, then he rejects that command.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.248.65

Be Discerning

September 29 2012, 1:45 PM 

Discerning Christians will note that the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command appears in two places in the Bible: in the last book of the Pentateuch (Deuteronomy 4:2) and in the last book of the New Testament (Revelation 22:18-19). These locations signify that, while the Old Covenant was in effect, no one was to tamper with God's word. Likewise, when the New Covenant supplanted the Old Covenant (Col. 2:14), the same warning applied. Christians are not to tamper with God's Word.

While the Old Covenant mentioned instrumental music, often in association with animal sacrifices, the New Covenant, under which Christians now serve, does not. The New Testament only specifies vocal music but mentions NOTHING about instrumental music in Christian worship on earth. The reference to "harps" in Revelation applies only to heavenly beings in an apocalyptic setting, and even then, those so-called "harps" are highly symbolic, just as the "red dragon" of Revelation is highly symbolic. Do people really believe that heaven literally has physical "harps" in an otherwise totally spiritual setting? If so, then that ole physical "red dragon" is literally hanging around, too. Revelation mentions NOTHING about mortal, human beings playing harps.

Just as animal sacrifices are obsolete in the New Covenant, so is instrumental music obsolete in Christian worship on earth, by virtue of the fact that God omits it when He only specifies vocal music in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16. By applying the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command, we as Christians may NOT add instrumental music to the vocal music that God has already specified. And since Christians do not serve under the Old Covenant, we must not abuse Scripture by citing Psalm 150 or any other Old Testament passage to "justify" using instruments in Christian worship.


 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.112.142

Re: Be Discerning

September 29 2012, 2:13 PM 

"B", I am not changing anything in God's Word, but you are. You really need to think about that.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.210.120

Re: Be Discerning

September 29 2012, 4:39 PM 

Rocnar either doesn't understand the neither-add-to-nor-take from command, or he has determined to ignore it and has scratched it from his Bible. That command simply means we are not to add to or take from the Word of God. In other words, we are not to add more to a command than what God specifies within that command, and we are not to take anything away from a command than what God specifies within that command. In the New Testament, God specifies vocal music, not instrumental music. Concerning music, Christians may not go beyond what God has commanded. Rocnar violates that command by ADDING a different kind of music, such as instrumental music.

Change agents and other rebels try to get around that command with the following fallacious arguments:

"God doesn't say not to use instrumental music." That statement is not found anywhere in the New Testament.

"You sin if you condemn instrumental music when God does not condemn it." God already condemns instrumental music in the New Testament by specifying vocal music and by telling us not to add anything more to a command. The sin lies in violating the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command by adding instrumental music.

"Psalm 150 tells us to praise God with instruments." That was for people who lived during the period of the Old Covenant. Having fulfilled the Old Covenant, Christ nailed the Old Covenant and all its rituals and rites to the cross (Col. 2:14). Christians live under the New Covenant, which specifies vocal music (Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16), NOT instrumental music.

"Revelation mentions harps in heaven, so we can use musical instruments in Christian worship on earth." Revelation mentions NOTHING about mortal human beings playing harps or other instruments either in heaven or on earth. The "harps" are apocalyptic symbols, played by heavenly beings. Heaven is a totally spiritual place with no room for physical items from earth. That "harps" would be the ONLY physical items from earth allowed in heaven is absolutely ABSURD.

"The neither-add-to-nor-take-from command, found in Deut. 4:2 and Rev. 22:18-19 applies ONLY to those two respective books. It does not apply to the rest of the Bible." This also is absolutely ABSURD. Such a monstrously ridiculous argument implies that we may alter and change any part of the Bible except Deuteronomy and Revelation. Only those who really don't believe God's Word would think like that. They seek any way to shirk His directives and implement their own worldly agenda.

During his forthcoming long absence, Rocnar needs to think really long and hard about all of this. He needs to decide whether he will overcome his rebellious streak and finally observe the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command, or whether he will remain a "Christian" in name only.

 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.116.206

Off Topic

September 30 2012, 9:13 AM 

"B", "Last Word Syndrome" (LWS) is mostly a female issue however some men seem to B affected as well. Constantly repeating one's self is also a sign of weakness and reeks of "lack of confidence" issues. A "less is more" policy is a better approach in internet fora.

We have made our points and it's time to move on. Peace happy.gif

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.209.85

Re: Off Topic

September 30 2012, 5:42 PM 

If repeating one's self is a mark of weakness and lack of self-confidence, then Racnor must think that Jesus was "weak and lacked self-confidence," because He repeated His Gospel over and over. B has told Racnor over and over that Racnor needs to overcome his rebellious streak and adopt the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command. I gather that Racnor has no intention of obeying that command and will continue to endorse instrumental music when God only specifies vocal music. Even though Racnor will have much time to think about this during his long, forthcoming absence (which he seems reluctant to take), I don't expect him to change his erroneous belief. So be it. happy.gif

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Re: Who will NOT be in "My Fathers House" Grace Centered Forum

September 28 2012, 8:12 PM 

William Crump,
Not sure about peaceful but I do enjoy reading your posts. It IS what makes everyone understand what this site is all about.
happy.gif

William, without any further explanation.....you can take that and run with it.
happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.82.227

For whom there is NO grace? The Graces of course.

September 28 2012, 8:37 PM 

Sorry, but you don't know a scholar who understands that a Church of Christ is built upon the foundation of the Prophets by the Spirit OF (preposition), fulfilled by Jesus of Nazareth whom God made to be both Lord and Christ (Grace, Word, Spirit, etal) and the MEMORIES left by the Apostles. That prophecy begins with Samuel but includes NOTHING from the Kingdom periods abandoned to Babylonianism.

http://www.piney.com/2.Samuel.6.html

By the providence of God MANY or most are called but FEW are chosen as by fire and suffering as a RESULT of teaching that which HAS been taught. David is THE MARK of those ignorant of the Word and probably deluded proven by lying wonders or hypocritic rituals by rhetorians, clergy singers, instrument players and EVEN (yes) dancers.

[linked image]

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.210.229

Re: Who will NOT be in "My Fathers House" Grace Centered Forum

September 28 2012, 8:40 PM 

Dave said he wasn't sure about being peaceful. Hmmm...that means Dave has a troubled life and his conscience is bothering him. The cure: Dave should include the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command as part of his Christian life. Of course, in order to comply with that command, Dave will have to drop his endorsements of instrumental music in worship. Can he do that?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.64.238

The Smiters and Pluckers in Isaiah 50

October 2 2012, 5:49 PM 

I have to keep saying that the Spirit OF Christ defined the future REST both inclusively and exclusively. Jesus of Nazareth made these prophecies more certain and the Church of Christ WILL BE built upon the prophets and apostles with Jesus Christ being the cornerstone.

http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.50.Smitten.Plucked.html

The House of God (claimed the Jews) was the enclosed Court Yard where they SOLD and TRADED. While God did not dwell in the literal HOUSE, He dwelled with the people OUTSIDE of the gate. Solomon finally accepted that the Temple was simply a place TOWARD which they might pray, BUT God heard them from heaven.

One of the MARKS of the false religion had to be FULFILLED on Messiah as the way to verify the prophecy. When people Smite and Pluck in their "holy place" this is a warning. We cannot be certain about the full meaning of words. However, by doing an exhaustive search of how the words are being used we can be CERTAIN that in the case of Isaiah 50 there is NO WAY that smiting and plucking can be used in a godly way.

[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.7.224

Re: Who will NOT be in "My Fathers House" Grace Centered Forum

October 9 2012, 2:21 PM 

Strab. 2.5.6 Strabo64/63 BCE ca. 24 CE)

Let it be supposed that this island is contained in one of the above quadrilaterals; we must obtain its apparent magnitude by subtracting our hemisphere from the whole extent of the earth, from this take the half, and from this again the quadrilateral, in which we state our earth to be situated

1 The Greeks, besides the division of the equator into 360 degrees, had also another method of dividing it into sixty portions or degrees.

2 These 21,800 stadia would give to Alexandria a latitude of 31° 8 34

according to modern calculation it is 31° 11 20 of latitude. The following presents Strabo's calculations of the latitude of the preceding places in a tabular form.


What shall we say of professional FLAT EARTH CLERGY?

 
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ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.8.9

No! Calvin never said or thought any such thing!

October 11 2012, 6:17 PM 

Tyler, DaveW, Johnn B about John Calvin Dividing the Church of Christ. In fact, the Church of Christ has never been "joined" with the Christian Churches and never in recorded history ever thought that you could obey the command to "speak that which is written for our learning" and accompany it with harmony and instruments. That is because God made certain that NONE of the Bible is metrical as a way to MARK those who will not obe3y.

See Our Grace-Centered Magazine Forum as an ANTI-Church of Christ marketing scheme. Unfortuneately they are not manly enough to tolerate posting of FACTS.

http://www.piney.com/GraceCenteredReview.html

TYLER SAYS along with lots of other HATCHED opinions.It was Calvin that evolved his ideas that "silence was prohibitive." Calvin's idea of silence divided the churches of Christ. Calvin not only treated the Bible as level dispensationally, he treat the Bible as level linguistically. All the language in the Bible to him was the same kind of language.

To Calvin, the language was prescriptive, like a Betty Crocker cook book. That is, the language was prescriptive like the instructions for building the Tabernacle, or the Ark.


In fact, that was the Spirit OF Christ who defined the Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the Wilderness:
It was INCLUSIVE of Rest, Reading and Rehearsing the Word.
It was EXCLUSIVE of "vocal or instrumental rejoicing or elevated forms of rhetoric.

http://www.piney.com/Synagogue1.html

Jethro had defined that for Moses long before the nation fell into musical idolatry which was without redemption

Ex. 18:20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws,
.....and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk,
..... and the work that they must do.

caermna
A. [select] Objectively, sacredness, sanctity (in this sense rare, and only in sing.): sanctitas regum, et caerimonia deorum. Caes. ap. Suet. Caes. 6: legationis. Cic. Rosc. Am. 39, 113; Tac. A. 4, 64 fin.: 3, 61: loci. id. ib. 14, 22 fin.
B. [select] Subjectively, a holy dread, awe, reverence, veneration of the Deity (external; while religio has regard both to internal and external reverence for God; rare except in sing.)

ostendo , A. [select] In gen., to show, disclose, exhibit, manifest: ille dies cum glori maxim sese nobis ostendat, 2. [select] Transf.: vocem, to make heard, Phaedr. 1, 13, 9.
1. [select] To show, express, indicate by speech or signs; to give to understand, to declare, say, tell, make known, etc. (syn.: indico, declaro, significo).With acc.: illud ostendit, Cic. Att. 1, 1, 4.With obj.- or rel.-clause: ostendit se cum rege colloqui velle, Nep. Con. 3, 2:

Ex. 18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide
.....out of all the people able men, such as fear God,
.....men of truth, hating covetousness;
.....and place such over them, to be
.....rulers of thousands,
.....and rulers of hundreds,
.....rulers of fifties, and
.....rulers of tens:


Jesus said that the Kingdom of God does not come with OBSERVATION: that means that the kingdom is NOT concerned with what the Grace-Centered people lust for.

Liars, Dogs And Sorcerers (rhetoricians, singers and instrument players) will be cast alive into the lake of fire. The Forum owners need to make certain that people post Biblical and Historical fact: that would be good for business with the masses who are recovering from the musical attack.

 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.116.206

Re: No! Calvin never said or thought any such thing!

October 11 2012, 6:45 PM 

Ken, why change the title of the thread? You abuse your moderator privileges, there is plenty of storage available at CM. Why not take a lesson from Donnie and explain any changes? If you have an issue with GCM why not take it up with them? A real moderator would not abuse his privileges. JMHO.

 
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ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.8.9

Re: Lying about Campbell, Calvin and Christ at Grace Centered Forum

October 11 2012, 7:59 PM 

In The Necessity of Reforming the Church (1543) Calvin wrote:

http://www.piney.com/CalvinProfessPrea.html

"In inveighing against ceremonies themselves, and also in abrogating a great part of them, we confess that there is some difference between us and the prophets.

They inveighed against their countrymen for confining the worship of God to external ceremonies, but still ceremonies which God himself had instituted;

we complain that the same honor is paid to frivolities of man's devising. They, while condemning superstition, left untouched a multitude of ceremonies
which God had enjoined, and which were useful and appropriate to an age of tutelage;
our business has been to correct numerous rites which had either crept in through oversight,
or been turned to abuse and which, moreover, by no means accorded with the time.

For, if we would not throw everything into confusion,


Contrary to their claim that Calvin did not make any Old-New Testament distinctions:

we must never lose sight of the distinction between the old and the new dispensations,
and of the fact that ceremonies,
the observance of which was useful under the law,
are now not only superfluous, but vicious and absurd.

But in regard to the former, it is plain that
they are destitute of authority from the scriptures,
as well as of any approved example of such intercession;


while, as to the latter, Paul declares that none can invoke God, save those who have been taught by his word to pray. On this depends the confidence with which it becomes pious minds to be actuated and imbued when they engage in prayer.

But is it not altogether at variance with reason that the ploughing oxen should starve, and the lazy asses be fed? They will say, however, that they serve at the altar. I answer, that the priests under the law deserved maintenance, by ministering at an altar;
but that, as Paul declares, the case under the New Testament is different.
And what are those altar services, for which they allege that maintenance is due to them?
Forsooth, that they may perform their masses and chant in churches, for example,
partly labor to no purpose,
and partly perpetrate sacrilege, thereby provoking the anger of God.

See for what it is that they are alimented at the public expense!

 
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ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.8.9

Re: Lying about Campbell, Calvin and Christ at Grace Centered Forum

October 11 2012, 8:15 PM 

It's my thread: I don't add multiples. It's still about GCM which involves some the original and continuing changelings involved in early discord such as Otter Creek. They still pour out hatred to Piney.com and CM: like little boys pulling pigtails and then running for cover. Not even the "conservatives" who post just tidbits can tolerate much Bible. They always begin Music threads and then pour out venom when you tell them some Bible.

They can only tolerate a small number of Biblical posts until they kick you off. Your surely remember back in 2003 when people hated to hear the Bible and the UNIVERSAL persona of musical performers.

That "plowing ass" ruffled the feathers of some of the hen party. Donnie will understand why all honorable men wonder why the "plowing oxen" starves while the "lazy asses get fed."

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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