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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.116.206

Lesson Learned

October 11 2012, 8:21 PM 

Stay away from Ken's threads.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.42.38

Re: Lying about Campbell, Calvin and Christ at Grace Centered Forum

October 12 2012, 10:06 AM 

"They always begin Music threads and then pour out venom when you tell them some Bible."

Is that the Bible, like the KJV, or the CMV (conerned members version) that includes Enoch?

Just wondering.....

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Lying about Campbell, Calvin and Christ at Grace Centered Forum

October 12 2012, 10:46 PM 

Dave Fields,

You have never "told them some Bible" concerning worship to the Reverend Father by playing inanimate and lifeless musical objects and devices in the assembly. If that's not musical idolatry, what is?

So, what's keeping you as an elder from telling YOUR congregation that YOUR Bible NOW tells YOU that the church of Christ Jesus has been in error since the first century for not PLAYING in the assembly?

 
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Anonymous
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64.234.85.24

Re: Lying about Campbell, Calvin and Christ at Grace Centered Forum

October 13 2012, 9:08 AM 

Donnie, when did you start referring to God as the "Reverend Father?"
Remember Donnie.....you will judged by the company you keep.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.243.109

Re: Lying about Campbell, Calvin and Christ at Grace Centered Forum

October 13 2012, 1:43 PM 

Dave objects to referring to God as "Reverend Father"? What about "Holy Father"? Oh wait, that latter designation is what the Catholics call the pope. Maybe Dave would rather not acknowledge anything holy about God. Maybe Dave prefers more generic, contemporary designations for God like "Big Daddy," "The Big Guy," "The Man Upstairs," and so forth. With such frivilous designations for God, no wonder Dave and the change agents see God as such a jolly, happy-go-lucky, permissive deity who lets man do as he pleases.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Lying about Campbell, Calvin and Christ at Grace Centered Forum

October 13 2012, 1:56 PM 

Easy, Dave.

Haven't you heard God being addressed in prayer as "Our Holy Father in heaven"?

Likewise, haven't you heard God being addressed in prayer as "Our Reverend Father in heaven"?

Here are passages for your information:


  • Psalm 111:9 -- "He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name."

  • John 17:11 -- "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."

  • Matt. 23:9 -- "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."

I'd rather address God "our Reverend Father" than address any man "Reverend Father." What about you?

 
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Scripture
(no login)
74.240.210.74

Use of "Father" and "Just" in Prayers

October 14 2012, 1:05 AM 

There are some, usually elders, at Madison that when praying say "Father" repeatedly.

Sometimes I have counted 26 times the expression is used in a single prayer. Normally it will be used like "Father, we know. . . ." or "and we JUST want this, Father."

This repetition might be okay, but it certainly can get on the nerves of those who listen.

If we consider God "set apart" would we use the name "Father" so much?

Use of "just" is another possible repetitious, since it seems to be a beggar's phrase, and kind of puts God on the defensive, since he SHOULD AT LEAST do this for us. Normally, this sentence will go like this, "Now all we want FATHER is JUST to have . . . ." Normally "JUST" is used when we want something from God.

I wonder sometimes if "just" is used because we think that we must grovel in the grass for God to take us seriously. Otherwise, I'm not so sure why that word is used so much. Maybe a touch of belief in total depravity leads some to be afraid to ask for more than "just" what we need.

If God were considered REVEREND, would we be so frivolous and repetitious is talking with Him?








 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.85.21

Re: Use of "Father" and "Just" in Prayers

October 14 2012, 4:51 PM 

This is "creepy crawly" patterns which make people cringe and want to wash their hands. However, I think that it is an "inside" code word which seems to go with the outbreak of "praise teams" and other Change Language. I cannot judge but Jesus used several terms for the "lord lord" prophesiers which means musical performers. Jesus said that the Father doesn't know their name because He has not confessed it. All you can do is look at the literature of the time.

Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are:
.....for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.
.....Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet,
.....and when thou hast shut thy door,
.....pray to thy Father which is in secret;
.....and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:
.....for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

battalogste
batto-loge , A. = battariz, speak stammeringly, say the same thing over and over again, Ev.Matt.6.7,

bata^los [ba_, ho,
A. = prktos, Eup.82; cf. batas, bate.
II stammerer (cf. battariz), a nickname given to Demosthenes, Aeschin. 2.99, cf. D.18.180.

Aeschin. 2 99 On the journey two attendants followed him, carrying sacks of bedding; in one of the sacks, he assured us, was a talent of silver; so that his colleagues were reminded of those old nicknames of his; for the boys used to call him Batalos, he was so vulgar and obscene then when he was growing out of boyhood and was bringing against his guardians big lawsuits of ten talents each, he was called Argas;1 now, grown to manhood, he has got also the name that we apply to rascals in general, Blackmailer.

ki^naid-eia , h, A. [select] unnatural lust, Aeschin.1.131,

1 Batalos has been thought to mean stammerer, or perhaps mamma-baby see Aeschin. 1.126 and 131

Aeschin. 1.126 In the case of Demosthenes, too, it was common report, and not his nurse, that gave him his nickname; and well did common report name him Batalus, for his effeminacy and lewdness! For, Demosthenes, if anyone should strip off those exquisite, pretty mantle of yours, and the soft, pretty shirts that you wear while you are writing your speeches against your friends,

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Use of "Father" and "Just" in Prayers

October 14 2012, 5:02 PM 

There are some, usually elders, at Madison that when praying say "Father" repeatedly.

Sometimes I have counted 26 times the expression is used in a single prayer. Normally it will be used like "Father, we know. . . ." or "and we JUST want this, Father."

This repetition might be okay, but it certainly can get on the nerves of those who listen.

If I were to make such remarks as above, elder Dave Fields of Clemson, S.C. [who has questions about the real "Reverend Father"], would be the first one to condemn me for lack of respect for the elders.

The passage in Psalm 111:9 -- "He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name" -- reminds me of other similar passages that reference that which/who is holy or reverential or awful.

  • "Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground." (Exo. 3:5; Acts 7:33)

  • "God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him." (Psalm 89:7)

  • "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:" (Heb. 12:28))

  • "Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. (Psalm 33:8)

  • "Princes have persecuted me without a cause: but my heart standeth in awe of thy word." (Psalm 119:16)
I wonder what instrumental music lovers would do face to face with the Lord in prayer or worship? Or, "for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground"? Would their first reaction be to play their guitar before the Lord? Or, blow the trumpet unto the Lord? By the way, "awe in reverence" is not to be confused with being "awesome" as a musical performer.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.85.21

Re: Use of "Father" and "Just" in Prayers

October 14 2012, 5:20 PM 

"Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:" (Heb. 12:28))

Paul was warning about the event at Mount Sinai where the people refused to hear God. He predicts another shaking which speaks of "earthquakes and trumpets" and warns us not to reject the Voice of God.

I don't see how "reverence and Godly fear" can fit the pattern of singing, clapping, whistling, body gyrations and instruments. The sudden outbreak of a lack of reverence and a holy dread is one of MANY warnings which connects instrumental sounds instead of the Word of God is the promise of "Being cast alive into the Lake of Fire."

God to them has no right to "command, example or infer" anything. It's in the book: rejoice and be glad.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.85.21

Re: Use of "Father" and "Just" in Prayers

October 14 2012, 5:49 PM 

[linked image]

 
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B
(no login)
74.240.211.163

Re: Use of "Father" and "Just" in Prayers

October 14 2012, 6:25 PM 

I had thought the "just this and that" phraseology was used more often in Baptist prayers. Many times those prayers would begin, "Father, we just come before You..." In former years, I had not heard "just" repeated over and over in prayers in church of Christ services, so I thought the "just" business was a Baptist thing. But now, apparently it has found its way into churches of Christ. Could it be that the Baptist mindset has slowly infiltrated some church of Christ congregations? After all, since some of the latter congregations have adopted instrumental music, then it wouldn't be surprising if they adopted more denominational practices, like repeating "just" in prayers and doubting the necessity of baptism for remission of sins and salvation. In other words, those renegade congregations within the church of Christ have chosen to enter the denominational "land of the lost."

 
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Anonymous
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64.234.85.24

Re: Lying about Campbell, Calvin and Christ at Grace Centered Forum

October 14 2012, 8:37 PM 

Matthew 6:6
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Matthew 6:9
This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,...
Ephesians 1
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Ephesians says that through Jesus we are adopted to be HIS children. In Matthew we see that Jesus instructs us to call on God as OUR Father.

Some people just can't handle the Word in its beauty and simplicity.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.0.242

Re: Lying about Campbell, Calvin and Christ at Grace Centered Forum

October 14 2012, 9:53 PM 

Hop to it: you've got 24/7. However, from the Synagogue the prayer was mostly reciting Scripture. You have to stretch things to find any instructions for one person "leading" others by letting them listen to his prayer. That would be a performance. The "Worship Teams" say "watch us while WE worship and then YOU will be worshiping too. How obscene and BURNABLE

Men should HAVE holy hands to turn up (not wave) as a precondition to their prayers. This says nothing about a performance prayer.

Women should be godly and dress modestly so that SHE can also pray. This says nothing about her lusting for a performance ROLE left to Puffer-billy, six-pack Joe.

Seeking God is the only real "worship" thing you can do and Paul commanded that Timothy give attendance to the public READING of the Word, to exhortation or comfort and explaining doctrine contained IN the systematically read passage.

God almost always speaks when we are deathly silent. He speaks to us when we are immersed in His Word. Reading Chapter 3d is likewise a MOCKERY and not worshiping God. You remember that David wanted to AWAKEN his lyre so IT could waken the DAWN:

Habakkuk 2:19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.
Habakkuk 2:20 But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.


Using verse 3d as a launch pad for a self-speak sermon is likewise a mockery when if he had read 3a he would be contradicted.

Pray without ceasing: not at 10:33 in the PRINTED schedule of ACTS.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.243.80

Re: Lying about Campbell, Calvin and Christ at Grace Centered Forum

October 14 2012, 9:59 PM 

Perhaps Dave thinks that it is a sin to address God in prayer as "Reverend Father/God/Lord," "Holy Father" (not the pope), "Dear/Dearest Father/God/Lord," "Precious Father/Lord/God," "Gracious Father/Lord/God," "Almighty Father/Lord/God," and so forth. Perhaps Dave thinks Jesus commanded that we absolutely MUST open all prayer with "Our Father." Jesus never gave any such command. Responding to His disciples, who asked to be taught to pray, Jesus gave them a MODEL prayer, an EXAMPLE to consider, which is known today as the Lord's Prayer. However, Jesus did not stipulate that we were always to pray only the model prayer and nothing else. Yet some would stubbornly stick their necks out and argue that it's a sin to open prayer with anything other than "Our Father." If you're going to override Jesus and make that restriction, then you might as well stick your neck out all the way and say it's a sin to pray anything other than the Lord's Prayer.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.0.242

Re: Lying about Campbell, Calvin and Christ at Grace Centered Forum

October 14 2012, 10:11 PM 

"In the name of" is often "by the authority of." That is, if we pray by the authority of God we do not ask selfishly or for a new automobile.

Whatever we do in word or deed do all in the name of the Lord does not mean, as you note, that we have to attach "in the name of" as a magical device.

Some people pray all of the time seeking, knocking and God answers through His Word if we are not just reading a short passage to fill in the program blank called "reading." If we communicated with our earthy father we don't think about bracketing the statement.

Rote prayers and arguing over who PERFORMS may give people the feeling that they have "fulfilled" the act so they can go about their business.

 
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Anonymous
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

"There are some, usually elders, at Madison that..."

October 15 2012, 2:42 PM 

Use of "Father" and "Just" in Prayers
By Scripture
October 14 2012, 1:05 AM

"There are some, usually elders, at Madison that when praying say "Father" repeatedly.

Sometimes I have counted 26 times the expression is used in a single prayer. Normally it will be used like "Father, we know. . . ." or "and we JUST want this, Father."

This repetition might be okay, but it certainly can get on the nerves of those who listen. ...


Dave Fields' Rule: "Thou shalt not badmouth, disrespect, speak against, accuse, question the authority of the elders: regardless of their type of leadership, ability/inability to teach, good/bad example-setting, respect/disrespect for God's truth, good/bad decision-making."

David Fields' uproar, outrage and condemnation would be apparent if I had made the same remarks above. Of course, it is good that Dave has not said to Scripture: "You have sinned; I rebuke you; I condemn you; face the elders and repent of your sin."

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.247.181

Re: "There are some, usually elders, at Madison that..."

October 15 2012, 3:27 PM 

Dave has a Catholic mindset. Whereas the Catholics believe that the pope is infallible, Dave believes that church elders are also infallible. When the cardinals in the Catholic church elect a mortal man as pope, he instantly becomes "infallible." When a mortal man becomes an elder of his congregation, Dave believes that such a man becomes "infallible."

 
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Dave Fields
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Re: Lying about Campbell, Calvin and Christ at Grace Centered Forum

October 15 2012, 4:14 PM 

Consider this by B...."Jesus never gave any such command. Responding to His disciples, who asked to be taught to pray, Jesus gave them a MODEL prayer, an EXAMPLE to consider, which is known today as the Lord's Prayer. However, Jesus did not stipulate that we were always to pray only the model prayer and nothing else.

Now insert the following....."Jesus never gave any such command. Responding to His disciples, who were considering how to worship God, Jesus gave them a MODEL on singing, an EXAMPLE to consider, which is taken to mean only singing. However, Jesus did not stipulate that we were always to sing only and thus to leave out playing with the singing.

If it is ok to go beyond the example of the Lord's Prayer because "Jesus did not stipulate that we were always to pray only the model prayer and nothing else," , then the same is true if "Jesus did not stipulate that we were always to sing only and nothing else.

Do I smell a double standard here?

===========================

The hiding poster "Anonymous" is "David Fields." Actually.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Oct 15, 2012 5:12 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.81.195

Re: Lying about Campbell, Calvin and Christ at Grace Centered Forum

October 15 2012, 5:12 PM 

DON'T ACT OUT PRAYER

Matt 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

G5273 hupokrites hoop-ok-ree-tace' From G5271 ; an actor under an assumed character (stage player), that is, (figuratively) a dissembler ("hypocrite"):hypocrite.


Jesus identified performance SPEAKERS, SINGERS and MUSICIANS as Hypocrites who do MOUTH WORSHIP. If you can see it, hear it, feel it or SMELL it then this is the MARK of SECTARIAN HYPOCRITES.

Jesus just OUTLAWED them

DON'T PRAY AS A PUBLIC RITUAL

Matt 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

G5009 tameion tam-i'-on Neuter contraction of a presumed derivative of tamias (a dispenser or distributor; akin ttemns, to cut); a dispensary or magazine, that is, a chamber on the ground floor or interior of an Oriental house (generally used for storage or privacy, a spot for retirement):.. secret chamber, closet, storehouse.


Jesus said that God seeks worship ONLY in the human spirit

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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