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Re: Lying about Campbell, Calvin and Christ at Grace Centered Forum

October 15 2012, 7:01 PM 

Just before Jesus gave His disciples the model prayer, He said, "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name." (Matt. 6:7-9 KJV).

Notice that Jesus did not say, "Pray each time using only these words." Had He done so, then we could only pray the Lord's Prayer. Rather, Jesus said, "After this manner therefore pray ye," which meant He was about to give an example; His disciples were to base their prayers around the format that Jesus gave them. He had just told His disciples not to use vain repetitions. Jesus certainly wouldn't tell His disciples that, then contradict Himself by telling them to pray ONLY the Lord's Prayer.

On the other hand, Dave actually seems to argue that the ONLY prayer we can use is the Lord's Prayer: When we arise in the morning, we say ONLY the Lord's Prayer; for grace before meals, we say ONLY the Lord's Prayer; before retiring at night, we say ONLY the Lord's Prayer; and for all other occasions when prayer is desired, we are to say ONLY the Lord's Prayer. According to Dave's argument, we are not allowed to pray ANYTHING but the Lord's Prayer. In other words, Dave supports vain repetitions in prayers.

Whereas the Lord's Prayer is a model, an example around which we should base our own prayers, the passages in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 clearly STIPULATE that we are to use vocal music. By the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command (which Dave conveniently ignores), we are not permitted to add other kinds of music than the kind that God stipulates. Had God said, "Make joyful music and melody in your hearts," then we would have had the freedom to use vocal as well as instrumental music. But since the STIPULATION is vocal music, then we cannot go beyond that.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Lying about Campbell, Calvin and Christ at Grace Centered Forum

July 27 2017, 2:15 PM 

Grace Centered Review:

Mere Nick (Masked Man) I was trying to get a straight answer from Kenneth Sublett about what he thought should and shouldn't happen with the church meets. It appears that he was of the view that there should be no preaching or singing. Does that sum it up?

Mere Nick wants a yes or no answer but I posted what God who breated as the Spirit OF Christ had Isaiah say.

Max Moon says: My basic point is the CofC "instrumental music is sinful" Specific authority/Generic authority arguments have always been absolutely ASINE. Piney is just taking it to the extreme.

God is WORD in the same sense that He is LIGHT and all available qualities. The Word is the Logos and is defined as the Regulative Principle well known to anyone who has ever heard Jesus as the PATTERN saying that He only spoke what the Father breathed into without METRON or meter.

This was removed as a statement of the Spirit of Christ Who is accused of being a blowhard.

As for "preachers" there is no role and no dole. A preacher or Kerusso is a HERALD and he takes the news from one to another and gets hurt if he changes it.

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Max Moon says that is ASININE

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Ken Sublett
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July 27 2017, 7:12 PM 

NORTON ATTACKS "Never once do we find in the writings of the Early Church Fathers where they took it upon themselves to write that God had forbidden IM in the church. They cite no apostles or scripture, or anyone else as saying IM in church worship is a sin.

They were aware of the fatal fall into instrumental always sexual idolatry at Mount Sinai. The is the only example of people engaging in singing, dancing, sexuality, playing instruments and playing with one another. The Church of Christ (the Rock) in the wilderness identified it as an abomination and outlawed "vocal or instrumental rejoicing and self-speak." By mocking those who define words they do not know how vile music when Jesus comes to teach is.


"Tyrants and kings plunder and pillage the treasuries of temples and "wrest away the chastity of matrons and maidens,--these men you name indigites and divi; and you worship with couches, altars, temples and other service,

and by celebrating their games and birthday... who seek to persuade men that
the rights of marriage should be held in common;
who lie with boys, beautiful, lustful, naked; who declare that you are beasts...
all these with wonder and applause you exalt to the stars of heaven, you place in the shrines of your libraries, you present with chariots and statues, and as much as in you lies, give with a kind of immortality." (Arnibious, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 432)

"Some of them are brought forward in the character of lovers, destroyers of purity, to commit shameful and degrading deeds not only with women, but with men also. You take no care as to what is said about matters of such importance." (Arnobius, Against the Heathen, AnteNicene, VI, p. 487).

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Check our Musical Idolatry Index to see a few of ALL who understood idolatry.

Most of the writers being bishops, did what bishops are supposed to do. They gave their judgements on matters, not addressed by the Lord or the apostles. They said the Church did not use lifeless instruments in worship because they didn't want to be like the Jews and pagans.

Sounds good to me but that is not the only reason: No one ever hallucinated singing with instruments until after the Reformation except by clergy in their idleness

And of course they didn't use the "authority principle" against instruments, because that doctrine didn't appear until the Reformation.

The Regulative Principle begins in the Garden of Eden and no one can be accidentially ignorant of its support throughout the Bible and all historic scholars. Apostolic Succession insisted that the next bishop in line defended and taught ONLY the Word.

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Ken Sublett
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Grace Centered Forum

July 27 2017, 9:13 PM 

Grace Centered Forum

Continuing attacks against a high level of historical research as unreadable and Asinine fits the pattern plotted by Paul. They do not grasp that they have experienced a decade or more of slow conditioning by Angels of Light with the purpose of replacing the Bible with church history or councils and "a" spirit finally able to guide THEM into all truth.

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The Three Graces of Ugliness or the Tripple Goddesses connected with the Jewish worship of the "Starry Host."

These are the pagan GODDESSES destroyed by Jesus Appearing as God's Personified Grace TEACHING us to deny the musical idolatry which is the BEAST.

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Ken Sublett
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Graces as Antithetical to Jesus Who was Personified Grace which TEACHES

July 31 2017, 10:00 PM 

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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