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Saying that God did not CONDEMN Instruments is the BIGGEST lie.

September 25 2012 at 5:52 PM
Ken  (Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
from IP address 166.248.129.18

The Christ Who outlawed "vocal or instrumental rejoicing including elevated rhetoric" also spoke to the DISCIPLES ONLY through the Prophets and Apostles. That is because Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness meant A SCHOOL OF CHRIST. No one violated the direct command in a liberal synagogue until the year 1815. Then, the judge told the Rabbi: "No, you cannot steal the synagogue or widows." People who are not to be stopped when they take a coat will not be stopped when they steal the church house of widows. It's a MARK: it's in the BOOK.

Christ spoke through the Prophets (only) and Jesus made the prophecies more certain and Peter repudiated anyone who would go beyond "that which is written for OUR memory of the eye-- and ear--witnesses, anyone who says that Christ did not RADICALLY connect instruments to "Lucifer the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden, AND the end-time Babylon mother of harlots is an 'Angel of Light.' The Angellos in the "voice of angels" in 1 Corinthians is speaking in tongues equated to playing instruments when Jesus comes to speak.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and
.....lofty One that inhabiteth eternity,
.....whose NAME is Holy;
.....I dwell in the high and holy place,
.....with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,
.....to revive the spirit of the humble,
.....and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth:
.....for the spirit should fail before me,
..... and the souls which I have made.
Isaiah 57:17 For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth,
..... and smote him:
.....I hid me, and was wroth,
.....and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart. [Anti CENI]
Isaiah 57:18 I have seen his ways, and will heal him:
.....I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
Isaiah 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips;
.....Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD;
.....and I will heal him.
Isaiah 57:20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea,
.....when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.

[linked image]

Isaiah 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice LIKE a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

THE MARK OF THE WICKED

Isaiah 58:2 Yet they seek me daily,
.....and delight to know my ways,
.........as a nation that did righteousness,
.........and [AS] forsook not the ordinance of their God:
.....They ask of me the ordinances of justice;
.........they take delight in approaching to God.

Isaiah 58:3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge?
.....Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure,
.....and exact all your labours.
Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness:
.....ye shall not fast as ye do this day,
.....to make your voice to be heard on high.

 
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AuthorReply
Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.42.38

Re: Saying that God did not CONDEMN Instruments is the BIGGEST lie.

September 25 2012, 7:11 PM 

The Christ Who outlawed "vocal or instrumental rejoicing including elevated rhetoric"...."



Ken....you do realize that when you say about condemnation of vocal music (Ken makes it clear when he says vocal OR instrumental) that you are also condemning William Crump and Donnie also and most everyone in the churches of Christ.


Donnie.....time to cover for Ken again.....say something quick. If Clinton can do it, I know you can. Save him!!!

 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.77.49

Re: Saying that God did not CONDEMN Instruments is the BIGGEST lie.

September 25 2012, 8:28 PM 

BIBLE SPEAK ONLY. Singing the Biblical text is NEVER called music. Music always included and almost demands DANCING. Dancing as in waving your hands, gyrating your body, clapping your hands all SYNCHRONIZED with the Words. Sumphonia translated as music means moving your body in a "friendly" exercise: that is why religious instruments which INDUCE this movement was always bound at the hips and lips to sexuality.

You should understand the word REJOICING which is not a part of the teaching role.

Melody as tunefulness belongs to the 19th century.

Why not grow up and respond directly to Christ Who breathed (spirit) into the Prophets.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.77.49 on Sep 25, 2012 8:50 PM


 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.77.49

Re: Saying that God did not CONDEMN Instruments is the BIGGEST lie.

September 25 2012, 8:36 PM 

I thought I told you that God COMMANDS instruments. Yea, He FORCES people to OUT themselves as a way of ESCAPE. Jesus didn't say "Thou shalt not be a Sophist: He said God HIDES from you." Performance Music has always been the case of lost men trying to bring God down or to ascend up for certainty. The FEELING that they get in their pleasure center nerves becomes the FOUNDATION of their faith.

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.77.49

Re: Saying that God did not CONDEMN Instruments is the BIGGEST lie.

September 25 2012, 9:17 PM 

Of Alexander Campbell: " But [116] Alexander, while he was impressed, perhaps as profoundly as his father, with spiritual excellence and beauty, and the sublime revelations of Deity, seemed to superadd to this, from a wider range of thought and feeling, and his more acute perception of the resemblances of things and of their relations, a considerable taste for the beauties of Nature and of Art. With him, these gave rise, however, to a calm feeling of enjoyment, rather than to enthusiastic admiration, nor was their contemplation usually unmingled with considerations economical and practical. In regard to the strictly imitative arts, as painting and sculpture, his taste had received no culture, and he made no pretensions to a critical judgment. In music, especially sacred music, he took great pleasure, and was visibly affected by it, often calling, when the occasion permitted, for the singing of psalms and hymns, and, though unable to carry the air alone, uniting in the singing with a clear, musical voice and evident enjoyment. In regard to poetry, to which he had already paid considerable attention, his taste was more developed, and his judgment even critical, though he was more disposed to exercise it upon the sentiment, which in poetry is secondary, than upon the expression, which is primary, and much more sensible of defective imagery than of defective rhythm.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.42.38

Re: Saying that God did not CONDEMN Instruments is the BIGGEST lie.

September 26 2012, 2:44 PM 

"Singing the Biblical text is NEVER called music. Music always included and almost demands DANCING. Dancing as in waving your hands, gyrating your body, clapping your hands all SYNCHRONIZED with the Words."


Ken, you have been to a church of Christ before where there has been singing (voice only, vocal cords vibrating)...and no DANCING.

Ken, you have been to a church of Christ before where there has been singing.....and no gyrating of the body.

Ken, you have been to a church of Christ before where there has been singing......and no clapping.


Could, then, what I quoted from you, be a lie?

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.204.47

Re: Saying that God did not CONDEMN Instruments is the BIGGEST lie.

September 26 2012, 9:46 PM 

Whenever Dave doesn't understand someone like Ken, he gives up and either implies or states that the person is a "liar."

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.82.121

Re: Saying that God did not CONDEMN Instruments is the BIGGEST lie.

September 26 2012, 10:31 PM 

Neither he nor most religionists can grasp that "what am I permitted to do that is divisive" is not related to "What is a DISCIPLE?" What is the teaching Resource for a DISCIPLE?

What can we do pales in the face of "Why IS it that our doctors of the law insist on making US their disciples?"

Jesus the Christ Who still retains His UNIQUE teaching role marked by elders "teaching that which has been taught" may be inattentive to those trying to make the Lesson Plans into dogma.

Singing can be teaching and admonishing or it can be so complex that the mind is literally shut down so that people feed only on emoting. The musicators actually believe that everyone doing their part and singing to the top of their bad breath and making sure that all harmonizes satisfies some lust in the Mind of God so that He will give them more goodies. They simply do not grasp that God is not three people a bit smarter than their Phduh or certificate: like Green cards to invade the kingdom of God.

We have said that over and over and over and the point is to prove that such silencing the Word is a terminal disease: There is a song which goes "no turning back, no turning back." That is THE point of Enoch and dozens of other contemporaneous writings.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Re: Saying that God did not CONDEMN Instruments is the BIGGEST lie.

September 27 2012, 12:30 AM 

William Crump said "Whenever Dave doesn't understand someone like Ken, he gives up and either implies or states that the person is a "liar.""

Is that like when Ken says "Saying that God did not CONDEMN Instruments is the BIGGEST lie."???

Now isn't the EPITAMY of hypocrisy?

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.42.38

Re: Saying that God did not CONDEMN Instruments is the BIGGEST lie.

September 27 2012, 9:45 AM 

Ken,
Why do you think that the book of Enoch wasn't included with the 66 books and the OT?


"Why isn't this wonderful book included in the Bible?" The answer is that Jesus and the apostles never called it scripture. It is important to note that a few early church fathers highly valued the book of Enoch but they never referred to it as scripture. Therefore, we cannot view it as authorative since it is not the Word of God."

"The biblical book of Jude quotes from the Book of Enoch in verses 14-15, Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him. But this does not mean the Book of Enoch is inspired by God and should be in the Bible. Judes quote is not the only quote in the Bible from a non-biblical source. The Apostle Paul quotes Epimenides in Titus 1:12 but that does not mean we should give any additional authority to Epimenides writings. The same is true with Jude, verse 14. Jude quoting from the book of Enoch in Jude verse 9 does not indicate the entire book is inspired, or even true. All it means is that particular verse is true. It is interesting to note that no scholars believe the Book of Enoch to have truly been written by the Enoch in the Bible. Enoch was seven generations from Adam, prior to the Flood (Genesis 5:1-24). Evidently, though, this was genuinely something that Enoch prophesied or the Bible would not attribute it to him, Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men (Jude 14). This saying of Enoch was evidently handed down by tradition, and eventually recorded in the Book of Enoch. We should treat the Book of Enoch (and the other books like it) in the same manner we do the other Apocryphal writings. Some of what the Apocrypha says is true and correct, but at the same time, much of it is false and historically inaccurate. If you read these books, you have to treat them as interesting but fallible historical documents, not as the inspired, authoritative Word of God."

Some thoughts from others.....

 
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B
(no login)
98.87.23.83

Re: Saying that God did not CONDEMN Instruments is the BIGGEST lie.

September 27 2012, 12:28 PM 

The early "church fathers" were mortal men who decided which books would make up the biblical canon. That they did not consider the Book of Enoch as Scripture does not necessarily nullify Enoch. They rejected Enoch based on their human opinion. Again, why would inspired Jude quote from Enoch if only a brief passage of Enoch was inspired and the rest of that whole book was not? That makes no sense. If the church fathers were so sure about rejecting the whole Book of Enoch, then why did they not delete Jude's quote of Enoch?

"All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Tim. 3:16 (KJV).

Remember that Jude does NOT reject Enoch's prophecy about God; therefore, the prophecy must be true. Now if the Epistle of Jude, which is inspired Scripture, quotes Enoch, then it makes no sense that an inspired writer would quote true prophecy from an uninspired book OR quote a selectively "inspired passage" from an otherwise uninspired book. If that's the case, then people can hack the Bible to pieces and say this passage or book is "inspired Scripture" and that passage or book is not, according to their fancy. That's madness.

BTW, Dave quotes quite a bit of material but does not cite his reference.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.42.38

Re: Saying that God did not CONDEMN Instruments is the BIGGEST lie.

September 27 2012, 2:28 PM 

The Problem....."Now if the Epistle of Jude, which is inspired Scripture, quotes Enoch, then it makes no sense that an inspired writer would quote true prophecy from an uninspired book OR quote a selectively "inspired passage" from an otherwise uninspired book."

The solution...."The Apostle Paul quotes Epimenides in Titus 1:12 but that does not mean we should give any additional authority to Epimenides writings. The same is true with Jude, verse 14. Jude quoting from the book of Enoch in Jude verse 9 does not indicate the entire book is inspired, or even true. All it means is that particular verse is true."


It makes perfectly good sense.

 
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B
(no login)
98.87.23.98

Re: Saying that God did not CONDEMN Instruments is the BIGGEST lie.

September 27 2012, 4:57 PM 

"For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth" (Titus 1:10-14 KJV).

Paul quotes Epimenides, who spoke evil of the people of Crete, only to contrast the Cretans' poor reputation with that of God's perfect reputation. It's as if Paul was saying, "See, even one of Crete's own prophets admits that the Cretans are liars."

Paul's quote from Epimenides said nothing that wasn't already known at the time: the Cretans had a bad reputation for being liars. That's why Paul said, "This witness is true." Notice that Paul said, "One of themselves...a prophet of their own," meaning one of the Cretans, yet Paul was careful not to acknowledge Epimenides as a prophet of God. In fact, Paul didn't even mention Epimenides by name at all. Thus, there is no reason to believe that Epimenides was an inspired writer. This is in COMPLETE contrast with Jude, who quoted a TRUE prophecy about God from Enoch. Thus, Enoch was an inspired writer, yet the mortals who decided which books would make up the bibical canon let their prejudices bias them against Enoch. You can't say of a writer that only selected bits of his writings are "inspired" and the rest is junk. Either a writer's work is COMPLETELY inspired or it is not.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Re: Saying that God did not CONDEMN Instruments is the BIGGEST lie.

September 27 2012, 10:32 PM 

So who makes that judgment that ALL of the book of Enoch is Inspired?

You just don't trust God to guide men to do His will. If God would have wanted Enoch to be a book in His Word, you can be sure that it would have happened. It isn't something that anyone can explain away, other than Enoch is NOT a part of Word because as always.....God's Will Be Done!

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

The Book of Enoch

September 27 2012, 11:22 PM 

Dave (or Annie Mouse), we know you -- don't be an anonymous writer.

We quote from various sources all the time!!! What's wrong with that when they, in fact, affirm what the Bible already asserts?

I'd rather quote from the Book of Enoch, the Didache, the writings of the early church fathers, ancient texts lost and found, etc., than from the change agents' distortions of the truth.

 
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B
(no login)
98.87.24.103

Re: Saying that God did not CONDEMN Instruments is the BIGGEST lie.

September 28 2012, 1:13 PM 

I think Dave's faith would dissolve completely if the Book of Enoch ever became part of the biblical canon. There's nothing in the Bible to suggest that the mortal men who selected the books for the canon were inspired like the biblical writers were. Those mortal men were guided by their best judgment in determining what they believed to be inspired works and what they believed to be otherwise. As I recall, the word "canon" doesn't even appear anywhere in the Bible in any translation.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.42.38

Re: Saying that God did not CONDEMN Instruments is the BIGGEST lie.

September 28 2012, 9:12 AM 

You do whatever you want to Donnie....you always have.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.5.247

Alexander Campbell Hymns and The Ancient Order

September 28 2012, 12:04 PM 

Our hymns are, for the most part, our creed in metre, while it appears in the prose form in our confessions. A methodistic sermon must be succeeded by a methodistic hymn, and a methodistic mode of singing it. And so of the Presbyterian. There is little or no difference to any sect in this one particular. Even the Quaker is not singular here; for as he has no regular sermon he has no regular song, hymn, nor prayer.

Those who have many frames and great vicissitudes of feeling, sing and pray much about them,
and those who are more speculative than practical, prefer exercises of intellect to those of the heart or affections.

The hymn book is as good an index to the brains and to the hearts of a people as the creed book; and scarce a "sermon is preached," which is not followed up by a corresponding hymn or song.

Does the preacher preach up Sinai instead of Calvary, Moses instead of Christ, to convince of convict his audience? Then he sings--

Awak'd by Sinai's awful sound,
My soul in bonds of guilt I found,
And knew not where to go;
O'erwhelm'd with sin, with anguish slain
The sinner must he born again,
Or sink to endless woe."

"When to the law I trembling fled,
It pour'd its curses on my head;
I no relief could find.
This fearful truth increased my pain,
The sinner must be born again,
O'erwhelm'd my tortur'd mind."

"Again did Sinai's thunder roll,
And guilt lay heavy on my soul,
A vast unwieldy load!
Alas! I read and saw it plain.
The sinner must be born again,
Or drink the wrath of God."

I know of nothing more anti-evangelical than the above verses; but they suit one of our law-convincing [395] sermons, and the whole congregation must sing, suit or non-suit the one half of them. But to finish the climax, this exercise is called praising God.

But again--Does the preacher teach his congregation that the time and place when and where the sinner should be converted was decreed from all eternity? Then out of complaisance to the preacher, the congregation must praise the Lord by singing--

"'Twas fix'd in God's eternal mind
When his dear sons should mercy find:
From everlasting he decreed
When every good should be conveyed:'

"Determin'd was the manner how
We should be brought the Lord to know,
Yea, he decreed the very place
Where he would call us by his grace."

Is the absolute and unconditional perseverance of all the converted taught? Then, after sermon, all must sing--

Safe in the arms of Sovereign Love
We ever shall remain,
Nor shall the rage of earth or hell
Make thy dear counsels vain."

"Not one of all the chosen race
But shall to heaven attain;
Partake on earth the purpos'd grace,
And then with Jesus reign."

But does the system teach that there are and must necessarily be cold and dark seasons in the experience of all christians, and that such only are true christians, who have their doubts, fears, glooms, and winters? Then the audience sings--

"Dear Lord, if, indeed, I am thine,
If thou art my sun and my song,
Say why do I languish and pine,
And why are my winters so long?
O drive these dark clouds from my sky,
Thy soul cheering presence restore,
Or take me unto thee on high,
Where winter and clouds are no more."

Without being prolix or irksome in filing objections to all these specimens of hymn singing, I shall mention but two or three:--

1. They are in toto contrary to the spirit and genius of the christian religion
2. They are unfit for any congregation, as but few in any one congregation can with regard to truth, apply them to themselves.

3. They are an essential part of the corrupt systems of this day, and a decisive characteristic the grand apostacy

 
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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)
72.209.196.118

wisdom speaks in our world today

September 29 2012, 7:46 PM 

Consider Proverbs 8

Vs 6 says wisdom speaks "excellent things" such as to not divide God's people over mechanical instruments of music which cannot worship God. Only mankind and the instruments given by God can worship - the mind and the voice! We are to spend our resources as the called out to conform to the commission given in Matt 28.

Vs 11 says wisdom cannot be compared to all the things we can possibly desire. How important it is that we maintain simple obedience to the gospel of Christ. One cannot improve on the BIble - we must not let satan fabricated issues draw off resources which should be applied to the great commission.

Comments Welcome

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.78.212

Re: wisdom speaks in our world today

September 29 2012, 8:35 PM 

Without knowing what they are talking about most of the "scholars" confess to being postmodern. That means post-Biblical, post-Christendon and post everyone before they were allowed into universities. They deny that ANYTHING can be certain except their ability with "new spectacles" to "get a new image of the Church" (Shelly).

They still drag out fragments of text when their hands are called but nothing in Scripture can make any difference.

If you are a Christian meaning a baptized disciple of Christ you WILL pay attention to all of the good advice in the Bible.

"Sophia" is Wisdom in the Greek world: the Jews equated Sophia to the Holy Spirit. Proverbs continues:

Prov 8:22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Prov 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Prov 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Prov 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Prov 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

Prov 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

Prov 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Prov 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Prov 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;


As Classical trinitarians say "God always had His Word and Wisdom with Him."

 
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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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