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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.1.112

Re: Baptismal Regeneration

December 1 2012, 11:44 AM 

Robert we are having another thanksgiving day so I will keep this short for now. It is a good subject and needs more exposure. See our review of Max Lucado's "rub it in your nose" sermon.

http://www.piney.com/Max-Lucado-Thiefon-Cross.html

In short, the kingdom had not been established as the Church and the thief wanted to be in the earthly king: not even some apostles understood yet.

Because of the time restraints Jesus and probably the thieves were buried in a GARDEN or paradise. Jesus would be dead and in the GARDEN for the necessary time. It was in Spirit that He went to preach to the spirits in prison.

John 19:41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.

pa^radeis-os , ho (also paradisos SIG463.8 (Crete, iii B. C.)),
A. [select] enclosed park or pleasure-ground, Oriental word first used by X., always in reference to the parks of the Persian kings and nobles; p. megas agrin thrin plrs An.1.2.7; p. dasus pantoin dendrn ib.2.4.14; ta en p. thria Cyr. 1.3.14; thrai . . en perieirgmenois paradeisois HG4.1.15, cf. Thphr.HP 4.4.1, AJA16.13 (Sardes, 300 B.C.), LXX Ne.2.8, Plu.Art.25.
2. [select] generally, garden, orchard, PRev.Laws 33.11 (iii B. C.), PCair.Zen. 33.3 (iii B. C.), OGI90.15 (Rosetta, ii B. C.), LXX Ca.4.13, Ec.2.5, CIG 2694b (Mylasa), PFay.55.7 (ii A. D.), etc.
3. [select] the garden of Eden, LXX Ge.2.8.
b. [select] Paradise, the abode of the blessed, Ev.Luc.23.43, 2 Ep.Cor.12.4.
c. [select] expl. of makarn nsoi, Procl. ad Hes.Op.169.
II. [select] stupid fellow, Com.Adesp.1102. (Persian word, cf. Poll.9.13, Phot., and Avest. pairidaza- 'enclosure'.)


If Jesus wanted to take him to heaven that was his power:
He asked to be in the kingdom (earthly)
The real kingdom is spiritual (the church)
Jesus said NO, you will be in the garden probably.

If you are not a thief on the cross it cannot trump the direct commands of Jesus and the teachings of the apostles.


 
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Robert
(no login)
129.71.204.146

Baptismal Regeneration

December 1 2012, 3:06 PM 

Dear Ken:
Thank you for responding to my question. I read what you had to say on the web address you posted in your response to me, and was not previously aware that Max Lucado was trying to change peoples minds on this subject. The reason I posted the open question on the subject of baptismal regeneration is that I am trying to find the truth. I have no agenda, hidden, or otherwise. I reiterate the question below before I state what I think you said.

I am sure everyone here has heard this question before, and some may even have plausible scriptural answers to it, but here it is again. What about the thief on the cross who was not baptismally regenerated, but to whom Jesus said, in Luke 23:43 (KJV), Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

What you seem to be saying is that 1. The thief only wanted to be in Christs earthly kingdom, and therefore misunderstood Christs message, as did some of the apostles. 2. Christs promise to him was only that he would be buried in a garden or orchard of some type. 3. Jesus, as God was able to make an exception for the thief. 4. That exception was never to be repeated because it was a unique and special circumstance. 5. That the exception was in fact no exception at all because the thief received exactly what he asked for in accordance with his understanding. 6. That the thief died lost and went to hell.

The only thing I would like to know now is why a man who knows he is minutes from death would ask to be made a subject in an earthly kingdom whose king was also minutes away from death. That would seem to be a little more than a misunderstanding.

As I said, that is only what you appear to be saying.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Re: Is Doing Good Works a Factor or Necessary in Conversion?

October 7 2012, 9:14 PM 

William Crump!!! Now hold on son! Weren't you once a organ pumping Baptist yourself?

 
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B
(no login)
74.240.239.114

Re: Is Doing Good Works a Factor or Necessary in Conversion?

October 7 2012, 9:29 PM 

Wasn't Paul the apostle once Saul of Tarsus, a persecutor of Christians? Then he (literally) saw the light. Get the picture?


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Is Doing Good Works a Factor or Necessary in Conversion?

October 7 2012, 9:32 PM 

Dave,

This thread is not about your favorite unscriptural, unauthorized endorsement of musical idolatry.

I just found out about this; check it out...

http://www.forums.offtopic.com/


happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Oct 7, 2012 9:41 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.82.160

Re: Is Doing Good Works a Factor or Necessary in Conversion?

October 7 2012, 9:44 PM 

I am looking at Dave's Baptist text that Jesus was SAVED before he was baptized.

Maybe he will tell Donnie why Matthew 3:13-17 proves that one is saved BEFORE baptism.

The Baptists and their dupes simply have NO interest in understanding why Jesus wore filthy garments and was not pronounced a Son until He came up OUT of the water.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Is Doing Good Works a Factor or Necessary in Conversion?

October 7 2012, 9:57 PM 

Maybe, Dave can explain how the expression "Christian Baptism" originated.

I think I know -- it is labeled as "Christian Baptism" not because one who is baptized becomes a Christian, but because it is the Christian [not the sinner] who is baptized.

The Christian needs to be baptized!!! That's why it's called "Christian baptism."

What a distortion of the truth!!!

 
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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)
72.209.196.118

Obey vs good works

October 8 2012, 1:29 PM 


This thing is confusion and strife caused by someone who does not read and understand the scriptures but does read and understand the works of other confused and deluded men.

Good works have an element of choice about them - in any new testament church there are a number of good works that can be done and many of us chose to be involved in whatever activity we have the time and talent to do. Doing good works is commanded by God as we all know.

Obedience has an element of specific absolute conformity required. The ark Noah built had to be done by the specifications given by God. The walls of Jericho came down after specific obedience.

In I Sam 15 this confusion and warping of truth is addressed and illustrated by Saul and Samuel and the Amalekites - Saul saying that they disobeyed the specific absolute conformity (complete destroying) for something of their own choice that of a sacrifice or burnt offering. Samuel gave them Gods answer to that line of thinking.- rebellion toward God and is as the sin of witchcraft.

This thinking that baptism is another good work is to me the foundational claim that other churches have Christians in them who are as good as we and that we have no unique claims due to our adherence to BIble obedience. I can hear all the dissension about the good works all these people are doing. But God has spoken - the mind of man cannot invent a good work and make it equal to or replacement of a specific command of God

Remember also the words on obedience found in Matt 7.

Good works are not a substitute for obedience.

Comments Welcome




 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Obey vs good works

October 8 2012, 10:21 PM 

Great differentiation, John.

(1) The sinner [one outside of Christ] obeys the command to be BURIED with Christ in BAPTISM in order to have sins remitted and RISEN with him to begin newness of life (Romans 6:4; Col. 2:12).

(2) The Christian does GOOD WORKS. For faith without works is DEAD (James 2).

 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.116.206

"Mystery Solved" Acts 10: 34-48

October 8 2012, 4:50 PM 

34 Then Peter began to speak: I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

39 We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosenby us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47 Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have. 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.


Acts 11:15-18 (More of the same!)

15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: John baptized with[a] water, but you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit. 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in Gods way?

18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.

 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.78.210

Re: "Mystery Solved" Acts 10: 34-48

October 8 2012, 5:00 PM 

What happened in the upper room

Acts 2:2 And suddenly
.....there came a sound from heaven
.....as of a rushing mighty WIND,
.....and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them
.....cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Pneuma is pnoe or BREATH: When God BREATHS on you then you SPEAK--no more, no less: no remission of sins

Psalms 33:6 By the [1] word of the [2] LORD were the heavens made;
and all the host of them by the [3] breath of his mouth.



    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.78.210 on Oct 8, 2012 5:03 PM


 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.116.206

Re: "Mystery Solved" Acts 10: 34-48

October 8 2012, 5:13 PM 

The sequence of events are clear. Christian Baptism is valid.

 
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B
(no login)
98.87.23.50

Redundant: "Christian Baptism"

October 8 2012, 8:50 PM 

Actually, the term "Christian baptism" is redundant. It means a person who is already a Christian is then baptized. But as the New Testament stipulates, in order to BECOME a Christian, a person must be baptized, AFTER he has first heard the Gospel, believed the Gospel, repented of his sins, and confessed Jesus as Lord. Following baptism, according to Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, and 1 Peter 3:21, a person's sins are forgiven, they receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and are then CHRISTIANS. So, does a person who has been properly baptized to BECOME a Christian need to be baptized again to have "Christian baptism"? Hardly so!


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: "Mystery Solved" Acts 10: 34-48

October 8 2012, 11:18 PM 

Racnor,

I will have to disagree with your view regarding "Christian Baptism."

There is no controversy at all in the passage you quoted: (Acts 10:34-46). It is parallel to the first segment of Acts 2 (v. 1-36). Remember that thing about "the Jews and the Gentiles"? Romans 9:24 -- "not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles."

What occurred in Acts 2:1-36 pertained to the Jews.

What occurred in Acts 10:34-46 pertained to the Gentiles.

You will find more of the same expression in these references: Acts 14:1 -- "both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed." Acts 19:10 -- "both Jews and Greeks." Acts 19:17 -- "to all the Jews and Greeks also."

Please note that in either case, there was nothing said of the burial in water unto the forgiveness of sins.

Then, Acts 2:37,38 (to the Jews) is a parallel to Acts 10:47,48 (to the Gentiles) -- both are in regard to baptism in water.

"Christian Baptism" is a misinterpretation of the purpose of baptism. It is not the Christian who needs to be baptized. Rather, it the sinner (one outside of Christ) who needs to be baptized in order to become a Christian.

 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.116.206

Re: "Mystery Solved" Acts 10: 34-48

October 9 2012, 5:42 PM 

Perhaps, Donnie, we can agree on the term "believer's baptism"?

Do you believe the Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Ghost prior to water baptism?

Do you believe the Gentiles sins were remitted (forgiven) prior to water baptism?

Do you believe this was a one time event that was never repeated?


 
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B
(no login)
98.87.23.22

Re: "Mystery Solved" Acts 10: 34-48

October 9 2012, 8:32 PM 

When Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." (Mark 16:16a), the Baptists think it means, "He that believeth shall be saved, and then he can be baptized whenever it's convenient."

When Peter said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38), the Baptists think it means, "Repent for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; then every one of you can be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ whenever it's convenient."

When Peter also said, "The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21), the Baptists think it means, "Although baptism doesn't save us, it is the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ; therefore, after we've accepted Jesus into our hearts as our personal Savior and are saved, we can be baptized whenever it's convenient."

 
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B
(no login)
74.240.240.240

No "Mystery" at All

October 8 2012, 5:14 PM 

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16 KJV).

"Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:37-38 KJV).

"The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21 KJV).

 
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B
(no login)
74.240.211.213

Re: No "Mystery" at All

October 8 2012, 7:58 PM 

Christ says that you must believe AND be baptized to be saved. If you don't believe, you won't be baptized; hence, you'll be damned. Jesus does NOT say, "Believe to be saved and then be baptized."

The sequence is clear: salvation comes AFTER baptism.

Peter says that if you repent and are baptized, your sins will be remitted (forgiven); THEN you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The sequence is clear: forgiveness, the gift of the Holy Ghost, and salvation come AFTER baptism.

Peter also says that baptism SAVES us, not by washing literal dirt from our physical bodies, but because baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God.

The sequence is clear: salvation comes AFTER baptism.

 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.80.61

Re: No "Mystery" at All

October 8 2012, 9:09 PM 

It is just too supernatural and hard to have to capitulate and confess it: Jesus came to save LOST SPIRITS. These Spirits are IN the world (kosmos) but not OF the World.

Jesus refused to pray for this Cosmic Order and God HID from the performers who CLAIM that THEY are the Spirit-finders and can lead you into the presence of God. That's the abomination of desolation standing in what they believe is the HOLY PLACE.

Jesus spoke parables to PREVENT them (Scribes, Pharisees mercenary hypocrites) from HEARING or READING the mysteries. Paul in 2 Corinthians 3 said that only those who turned (converted or were baptized) would be enabled to HEAR the Word when it was READ (only) in the synagogues or HEAR it when others speak it. That was prophesied by Moses of "another prophet" Who could not be ignored.

"And" or "kai" us cumulative: Believeth (I will comply) AND is baptized (complied) SHALL BE saved.

The believeth not or Apistos says I WILL NOT COMPLY: I do not trust my soul to your instrumental means. It is to MARK the world who are TRAITORS and are tasked to tell everyone that Christ in the prophets, Jesus in person, the Apostles and most of recorded history were LIARS and only THEY can be trusted to tell the truth.

It may be that they KNOW that no one can mistake the clear statements of Scripture and are just evil. It MAY be that they literally CANNOT grasp the truth in its simple form. They LOOK at the LAMB but they bet their lives that they saw a WOLF. They are spiritually DYSLECTIC.

That's what Scripture says but we just don't want to believe that we are in a spiritual battle with principalities and powers in high places.

 
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Robert
(no login)
129.71.204.146

Re: Is Doing Good Works a Factor or Necessary in Conversion?

November 18 2012, 1:54 PM 

My name is Robert,
I have been trying to answer some questions I have. Some of those questions have led me to this and various other sites. Ken has encountered me once or twice before on these sites, and even, I think, tried to address another question I had. When I came upon Ken's statements, included below in exact copied quotes, I was astounded at the inference that Jesus, God's son, worthy of worship even as a baby, needed salvation. I am astonished by the mere suggestion that such a concept is even possible.

"I am looking at Dave's Baptist text that Jesus was SAVED before he was baptized."
"Maybe he will tell Donnie why Matthew 3:13-17 proves that one is saved BEFORE baptism."
"The Baptists and their dupes simply have NO interest in understanding why Jesus wore filthy garments and was not pronounced a Son until He came up OUT of the water."

Please Ken, if you intend to address this question, keep your answer to fewer than 500 words, and in the English language - and please do not read any antagonism or animosity into my written word - I intend none. It is merely a question.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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