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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.5.161

Re: Is Doing Good Works a Factor or Necessary in Conversion?

November 18 2012, 2:54 PM 

2Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

THE PROPHETIC TYPE

Zech 3:1 AND he shewed me Joshua [Jehovah-Savior] the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord,
.....and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

Zech 3:2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Zech 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

Zech 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying,
.....Take away the filthy garments from him.
.....And unto him he said, Behold,
.....I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee,
.....and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.


Zech 3:5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head.
.....So they set a fair mitre upon his head,
.....and clothed him with garments.
.....And the angel of the Lord stood by.

Zech 3:6 And the angel of the Lord protested unto Joshua, saying,

Zech 3:7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.


God pronounced Jesus of Nazareth (Joshua, the Branch) His Son only AFTER he was baptized.

Zech 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee:
.....for they are men wondered at:
.....for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Zech 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.


This is the seven spirits OF God (Isaiah 11)

THE PROPHECY MADE MORE CERTAIN

Matt 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

Matt 3:14 But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

Matt 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.


Jesus was taking on the sins of the whole world, past, present and future. Therefore, to fulfil the role of PRIEST Jesus would be baptized (washed) by John who was of the High Priestly family. You cannot be a priest of God without being baptized.

As with OUR baptism we are baptized into death.

Secondly, Jesus would Fully Preach baptism before He COMMANDED it of all people

Pleroo (g4137) play-ro'-o; from 4134; to make replete i.e. (lit.) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (fig.) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, * after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfill, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

Matt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Matt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Obey vs. Good Works

October 8 2012, 10:32 PM 

I have already responded to John Watson Smith's post above concerning obedience versus good works (October 8 2012, 1:29 PM). I would encourage anyone to read that post. Here's my response:

Great differentiation, John.

(1) The sinner [one outside of Christ] obeys the command to be BURIED with Christ in BAPTISM in order to have sins remitted and RISEN with him to begin newness of life (Romans 6:4; Col. 2:12).

(2) The Christian does GOOD WORKS. For faith without works is DEAD (James 2).

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Putting on Christ: Does It Occur Before Baptism?

October 9 2012, 2:20 AM 

Many of the "Change Agents" operating in the church of Christ have accepted their newly acquired Baptist doctrine of "Christian Baptism." To them baptism is no longer the ultimate step in the CONVERSION process.

The "Christian Baptism" dogma is simply this: BE SAVED NOW; BE BAPTIZED LATER.

But the Scripture negates the dogma:

  • There is NO REDEMPTION prior to baptism. "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (I Peter 3:21)

  • RESURRECTION with Christ does not precede the BURIAL with him in baptism. "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." (Col. 2:12)

  • Walking in NEWNESS OF LIFE does not precede the burial with Christ in baptism. "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Rom. 6:4)

  • PUTTING ON CHRIST (wearing the name "Christian") does not precede baptism into Christ. "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Gal. 3:26,27)

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.80.229

Re: Putting on Christ: Does It Occur Before Baptism?

October 9 2012, 6:50 PM 

The progressives make an ungodly living off making fun that God has a plan for we humans to follow. After all, humans had their own plan and it didn't work out too well.

We have noted that the Spirit OF Christ defined the future Sacrifice for sins to save us FROM the crooked race.

He defined HOW the vipers would continue to musically mock him up to the cross.

He defined and commanded baptism in great detail in Isaiah 6.

He through Malachi 3 defined the future role of the Forerunner.

Jesus was baptized to FULFILL the law contained in the command to be batized.

He defined baptism as necessary for making disciples.

Mark 1 defines the ARCHE or "most important under girding of the Gospel.

He then defined the Baptism of John and that of Jesus through the hands of his apostles.

In Mark 16 Jesus connected believeth AND baptism and repeated the prophetic type of Isaiah and said that he that believeth not or "does not comply" as proof of people preferring to be damned.

Therefore:

1. The Prophets through the Spirit OF CHRIST made baptism required.
2. Jesus of Nazareth made that prophecy more certain by being baptized
3. ONLY after He came UP OUT OF the Water did God the Father promounce Jesus as the Son of God.
4. The Church of Christ is built upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles.
5. Christ is the Chief Cornerstone in both.

The Baptism of Spirit and Fire is the sign of WIND to winnow to blow away the chaff. The baptism of FIRE is to burn up the CHAFF which would not come to the baptism of Jesus.

The Spirit OF Christ also defined the WIND and FIRE to judge the RACE OF VIPERS including the Jews who tagged along at the Cornelius event.

Is. 4:3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion,
.....and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy,
.....even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
Is. 4:4 When the Lord shall have WASHED AWAY away the filth of the daughters of Zion,
.....and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof
.....by the FIRE of judgment, and by the SPIRIT of burning.

lvo , Gr. lu- in luthron; strengthened in lou, loutron; cf. lowetron; Lat. luo (pol-luo, etc.), diluvium, lutus, to wash, bathe, lave.
II. Trop., to wash away: venias nunc precibus lautum peccatum tuum, Ter. Phorm. 5, 7, 80: dulci Mala vino lavere, Hor. C. 3, 12, 2.Hence, lautus , a, um, P. a.

Loutron , numphika loutra the conveying of water to the bride (cf. loutrophoros), Poll.3.43; in NT, of baptism, Ep.Eph. 5.26; l. paliggenesias Ep.Tit.3.5.


These BRIDES who are not washed to be clothed with the wedding garment will be EXCLUDED.

It may not be the CAUSE of people being lost but the MARK of people who had rather climb up like thieves. And like thieves, they claim that knocking at the DOOR to the sheepfold would be a LEGALISTIC, PATTERNISTIC HERESY. A thief has real trouble accepting the FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE.


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.80.229

Re: Putting on Christ: Does It Occur Before Baptism?

October 9 2012, 7:02 PM 

The promise to the Apostles was a baptism of WIND and FIRE: the SIGNS in the upper room was WIND and FIRE. After that, the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit or BREATH: when God breaths on people it is not to SAVE them but to prove that THEIR words are GOD'S Words. The Testament of Levi who prophesied of the JUBILEE HERESY. This teaching of one of the 12 is identical to the Words of Christ:

The Testament of Levi shows what the common Jewish understanding whether right or wrong. Never miss a chance to honor a preposition.

http://www.piney.com/DocTstLevi.html

Then shall the Lord raise up a new priest. And to him
all the words of the Lord shall be revealed; (Isa 1:1f).
and he shall execute a righteous judgment upon the earth for a multitude of days.
And his star shall arise in heaven as of a king. Testament of Levi 5:13-15

And the knowledge of the Lord shall be POURED forth upon the earth,
.....as the water of the seas.
.....The heavens shall be opened, and
.....from the temple of glory shall come upon him sanctification,
.....with the Father's voice as from Abraham to Isaac.
.....And the glory of the Most High shall be uttered over him and
.....the spirit OF understanding and sanctification
.....ahall rest upon him in the water. Testament of Levi 5:19,-22

And he shall open the gates of paradise, and shall remove the threatening sword against Adam,
and he shall give to the saints to eat from the tree of life,and the spirit OF holiness shall be on them.
And Beliar shall be bound by him, and he shall give power
to his children to tread upon the evil spirits. Testament of Levi 5:26-27

This is what the Spirit of Christ said in Isaiah 11 and in Proverbs.

And the spirit (7307) of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord; Isaiah 11:

And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: Isa 11:3

That is what we want when the Candlestick is still in our church. I believe the following is a parallelism

Prov. 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity?
.....and the scorners delight in their scorning,
.....and fools hate knowledge?

Turn you at my reproof: behold,
.....I will pour out my spirit unto you,
.....I will make known my words unto you. Proverbs 1:23

 
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Tom Brite
(no login)
69.91.123.92

Re: Putting on Christ: Does It Occur Before Baptism?

October 9 2012, 10:09 PM 

Donnie and Ken are right, in my opinion. Baptism is no more a work than Faith and Belief are works. I thought I was going to have to agree with Dr. Crump, a very scary thought, but then I saw that he was wrong on his take on baptism. Salvation does not come after baptism, it comes at the point of baptism. We "arise to walk in newness of life," not arise to find newness of life at some point down the road.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.80.229

Re: Putting on Christ: Does It Occur Before Baptism?

October 9 2012, 10:22 PM 

That's true:

Jesus died
He was hidden in a tomb
His spirit revived
And that is why He could get up and walk away.
Only then could he WALK in a new life.

No one works harder than people trying to convince themselves and others that THEY didn't have to obey.

As many groups shed their Calvinism where predestiantion is only validated by being a success in life they tend to hold on to a shattering superstition.

They boast but they THINK that if they even involve themselves in believing or having faith this would be a sign of a LOSS of faith which gives them the assurance.

The Campbells and others show that obedience to a direct command is God's way of sealing them or giving them assurance. A SEAL must be obvious.


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Putting on Christ: Does It Occur Before Baptism?

October 9 2012, 10:31 PM 

Yes, baptism is not a work, but it certainly is a requirement -- a command -- without which there is no forgiveness of sins in the blood of the Lamb.

Certainly salvation does not come prior to baptism. But I don't think anyone here has said or believes that the new convert is "to find newness of life at some point down the road."

The burial with Christ in baptism into death, the raising up from the dead must follow. Being risen with Christ from the burial is the assurance that sins have been forgiven in His blood, and the new convert, now a Christian, begins that newness of life.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.12.138

Re: Putting on Christ: Does It Occur Before Baptism?

October 9 2012, 10:44 PM 

I think Tom would say and do anything just so he wouldn't have to agree with B. We are saved when we have fully completed the act of baptism by first being immersed and then rising out of the waters of baptism. Baptism consists of immersion PLUS the follow-through of rising from the waters to newness of life. Thus, salvation immediately FOLLOWS baptism. Tom would have us believe that we must remain immersed the water to remain saved. I think Tom knows better than that.

In Matt. 3:16-17, the Spirit of God appeared as a dove and the voice from heaven announced that Jesus was His beloved Son in Whom He was well pleased right AFTER Jesus rose from the waters of baptism, NOT while Jesus was still submerged. That is, God waited until Jesus had completed the FULL ACT OF BAPTISM before appearing as a dove and making His announcement from heaven. The same parallel exists with salvation: it comes immediately AFTER THE FULL ACT of BAPTISM.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.12.138

Re: Putting on Christ: Does It Occur Before Baptism?

October 9 2012, 11:19 PM 

If Tom and B were in the same room and if someone said, "All those who believe Jesus is the Son of God, raise your hands," if Tom raised his hand and then saw B raise his, I do believe Tom would put his hand down, just so he wouldn't agree with B. Or if B raised his hand first, Tom wouldn't raise his hand, just so he wouldn't agree with B. Shame on you, Tom! happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.7.224

Re: Putting on Christ: Does It Occur Before Baptism?

October 10 2012, 5:34 PM 

It is important to look at the several descriptions of what happens at baptism. It is true that resurrection means to be REvived or REspirited.

In Acts 2:38 one must Repent AND be baptized for the REMISSION of sins and the gift OF A holy spirit which comes only from Jesus Christ Who is now the ONLY Comforter or Mediator. In 1 Peter 3:21 and 2 Corinthians 3 turning (converting, being baptized) gives one A good conscience (consciousness or a co perception) or A holy spirit. After one has been REspirited the Gift of A holy spirit is the power to comprehend and share in the mysteries of the Kingdom.

This saves one from the perverse or CROOKED RACE. These were the VIPER RACE and evidence connected this race to the new wineskinners, getting drunk on wine or the SKOLION (crooked)singing common in the symposia where the elders are not to come NEAR WINE.

AT BAPTISM we are CLOTHED with Christ as the "wedding garment" required to get into the wedding and the "oil" to keep our lamps buring. The Menorah spoke of the seven spirits of God. In Isaiah 11 these are all forms of Divine Knowledge or the ability to grasp the Word.

Salvation by Grace Through faith is not the NEW BIRTH but Safety from the evil people defined in the first part of Ephesians 2.

Maybe it is less important to understand all of these values than to be aware of them. That will guard against the people who spout "faith only" who dont' care enough to understand all of what happens at baptism. John Calvin did a good job describing Adult Baptism and Alexander Campbell said that Calvin on Adult baptism was a Campbellite.

The Crooked, Perverse or Viper race points directly to the religious performers intending to silence truth.

http://www.piney.com/Acts.2.Crooked.html


 
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Scripture
(no login)
98.87.28.34

Something to reflect on

October 10 2012, 6:13 PM 

There can be four positions on merit and salvation:

1. We are saved by God's predestination and selection. Faith is prompted by God and Jesus died only for those preselected. Some Calvinists believe this, apparently. (Calvin may not have been a Calvinist.)
2. God does not predetermine that we have faith. But we are saved by our faith apart from our works. Works have nothing to do with salvation, since we are saved by faith. Persons in the church can say that they have broken all the commandments, yet they are saved. Persons who believe this make statements like, "God's love in unconditional." But they will not tell you that they are faith- and grace- aloners. They may also believe in 1 (above).
3. We are saved by faith, but works are an evidence that we have faith. Works assure us that we are saved. Abraham was justified by faith long before this justification was demonstrated in his works. Wesley and his Methodists are similar to this point (3).
4. We are judged by our works. Those without works do not have faith. Life does not have to be perfect, but we can repent of our sins, and they will be remitted, then we will still be saved. Mormons and Catholics may fit into this category. Those in this category are very sincere, and do more good than anyone can believe (usually), but they are not very content with their salvation since they do things they know are sins; but if they can do a quick "repentance" they will feel good for a while.

Churches of Christ are moving from category 4 to 3 to 2. When Churches of Christ get to believing in category 2, they might as well accept universalism, since it is a by-product.

Many Protestants don't like baptism and pretend it is a work, such as Billy Graham. From what I can tell, he does not like those who teach that baptism is in the steps of salvation.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Something to reflect on

October 10 2012, 8:01 PM 

I'll try to respond additionally later on.

I will be initiating another thread that deals with the Christian's present salvation -- hopefully, it will clarify issues concerning faith vs. faith and works.

For the time being, since this thread is about the initial salvation, i.e., CONVERSION, let me state that in the conversion process good works are not necessary. One is saved by grace through faith -- not of works (Eph. 2:8,9).

OK, I'll give away what I would like to discuss regarding the Christian's current salvation -- that the child of God (not at pre-conversion) must have both faith and works.

I'm convinced that when a Bible student becomes knowledgeable of the difference between:

(1) when faith without works is applicable
----------------- and ---------------------
(2) when both faith and works are applicable


... the confusion will be greatly diminished or completely eliminated. There are several passages that support such a distinction. We shall attempt to "rightly divide" the word of truth.

 
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Anonymous
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.81.170

Re: Something to reflect on

October 10 2012, 10:29 PM 

Category 2 people do not clearly understand that "saved" in Donnie's thread is in several tenses and has parallels. For instance,Paul wrote:

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul is speaking of the only thing yuu can OBEY: Baptism. You cannot obey faith but only God Who still has the right to demand obedience.

Those who refuse to obey the direct commandment prove by their teachings that they have no intention to obey or teach the "foundation LAID BY the prophets and Apostles."

If they do not obey then Paul refused to call them righteous.

2Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

You cannot obey the gospel just by believing in the actions of Jesus witout walking in His steps: He left an example for us to follow Just as He obeyed the Prophecy about Baptism.

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

If they have not obeyed that TYPE of Jesus obedience then they are STILL the servants of sin. They have not obeyed because they SPREAD the dogma that one does not HAVE to obey God. They simply so not comprehend "God."

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

They teach that you don't HAVE to obey that "pattern intended to be imitated." Therefore, they and their dupes are NOT free from their sins and CANNOT be servants of righteousness.

This is so absolute that no one OF FAITH or OF TRUTH can possibly miss it: in the following study it will become obvious that being a baptized person for 70 years, in the morning "I will be saved (safe) by Grace through faith. That being SAVED form means that I am saved FROM Ephesians 2:2 which they CANNOT read with comprehension:

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this WORLD,
according to the prince of the power of the air,
the SPIRIT that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Jesus said that He would not even PRAY for the World or Kosmos.

Kosmos , ho, natural, II. ornament, decoration, esp. of women; hieros k.metaph., of ornaments of speech, such as epithetsto sing sweet songs of praise,

We know that this was a word associated with the Babylons who taught.

Of the Gnostic (modern)...this sect crowned the image of Jesus along with those of Pythagoras, Plato and Aristotle. Further, there were impostors of all varieties: magicians, soothsayers, jugglers, deceivers and hypocrites, 'who appeared using mighty words with a host of unintelligible formulae and taking up with scandalous ceremonies in order to rob men of their money." (Int. Std. Bible Ency., Gnosticism, p. 1246).

Such a person was then an enthusiast. Music was the most important element used to induce this condition. .. Aristotle explains that among the modes the Phrygian has the same power as the flute among instruments, for both are orgiastic and both heighten consciousness. This peculiar capability, which brought on religious ecstasy.. For that reason everything written in the Phrygian mode was. (Quasten, p 36-37)

 
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Scripture
(no login)
98.87.28.34

Obedience from the Heart

October 10 2012, 10:56 PM 

Yes, the obedience from the heart does indeed include baptism.

Baptism is nothing like the works of the (Mosaic) law, in that it does not merit salvation, although is act of our dying to sins and being reborn. God wouldn't "owe" us anything for baptism, since it is the expression of our faith. One could, for example, keep all the feats and all the 10 commandments and have a real good feeling about salvation, almost to the extent of our believing that we have "earned" salvation. Not so with baptism. Even though baptism is the introduction to the body of Christ, there is nothing about the act that suggests that we have "earned" salvation. Baptism does provide, however--unlike the spiritual experience of "being saved" that is so commonly appealed to--the assurance that we have obeyed (as said Ken) a concrete command by which we are assured that we are in the body of Christ.

Of some interest here, are the teachings of the United Pentecost Church International who say that we must be immersed for remission of sins and then be baptized in the Holy Ghost. This is a remarkable departure from the Assemblies of God with the Swaggarts who believe in the "sinner's pray" (rather for baptism for remission of sins) and baptism of the Holy Ghost (Spirit of course). Just imagine these two quickly growing, aggressive and doctrinaire churches, with theologies so alike but are practically at war with one another over the baptism for remission of sins.

 
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Robert
(no login)
129.71.204.146

Re: Obedience from the Heart

November 18 2012, 3:02 PM 

What if you are justified by faith in Jesus, and the work He did for you? You then are baptized because you love Him and want to be obedient to Him and then go on to live a life of ever-increasing obedience to Him (out of love for Him) knowing that you can never, ever be yanked (by anyone or anything even yourself) out of His hand. Would that be salvation?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.5.161

Re: Obedience from the Heart

November 18 2012, 3:22 PM 

If we believe then we are ALL justified by "THE faith of Jesus Christ."

However, justified does not mean salvation before we were baptized. God had to use a heavy hand to prove to Peter that Gentile "dogs" or "swine" are Not CEREMONIALLY unclean and therefore--as the Jews though--not fit to be baptized.

God breathed on Cornelius to cause him to speak Judean to prove to the doubting Jews that Gentiles were NOT excluded. Now that Cornelius was JUSTIFIED by faith (he was a god-fearer) Peter was sent to tell him how to be SAVED: Peter COMMANDED them to be baptized.

I am a justified or "righteous" citizen of my county because if Jimmy Joe's coon dog comes up missing the Sheriff does not come and tell me that if Jimmy Joe's coon dog appears in his dog-pen we will be happy.

A justified person lived according to the laws under which they live. THE point about Cornelius:

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

That does not make one SAVED in the sense of being added by Christ to the School of Christ: for that you MUST be obedient to the Master Teacher and do what He commands you to do.

"Justified" and "Saved" or "Regenerated" or "Born again" are not the same on the face of it.







 
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Scripture
(no login)
98.87.37.156

Re: Obedience from the Heart

January 8 2013, 8:43 PM 

If you have faith and are baptized then I would agree that you are saved.

God does the judging, not me.

 
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Tom Brite
(no login)
69.91.123.92

Re: Putting on Christ: Does It Occur Before Baptism?

October 10 2012, 8:58 PM 

Dr. Crump, It is sad that you have had to think about this so much today that it took you two posts to try to come up with a response to my post. It is not that you are never right about what you believe, it is just that you are wrong about so much that it seems scary to me that we might agree on something. Please stop worrying about it, things will be ok.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.7.48

Re: Putting on Christ: Does It Occur Before Baptism?

October 10 2012, 10:17 PM 

Got ole Tom going...again. happy.gif

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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