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Robert
(no login)
129.71.204.146

Re: Putting on Christ: Does It Occur Before Baptism?

November 18 2012, 2:33 PM 

What if a person falsely believes they have received salvation prior to baptism and goes to be baptized thinking they are merely being baptized as a sign of obedience to Christ? Are they truly saved at that point (after their baptism by immersion) or are they still without salvation?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.5.161

Re: Putting on Christ: Does It Occur Before Baptism?

November 18 2012, 3:10 PM 

Jesus commanded to make disciples or STUDENTS by baptism and life-long teaching of what HE commanded to be taught and observed."

This is Donnie's point about TENSES of salvation. It is absolutely necessary that a person be initially taught until they can confess that"Jesus is the Christ the Son of God."

This is an act of PURE FAITH. The promise is that those who have FAITH (including obedience or compliance) AND will obey that first step by doing what Jesus did and commanded, that asks or REQUESTS A holy spirit or A good conscience (1 Peter 3:21). That also means a consciousness or a Co-perception of the Word.

This is not something a person of truth would think about debating.

Almost without exception, the clergy thinks about a punched ticket to the joy bus to heave. Proof is they do NOT teach what Jesus commanded to be taught from the prophets and apostles.

God only asks that you believe in Him and agree to become a Disciple which is not a WORSHIPER in the majority view.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Seeking or giving attendance to the public reading of the Word is the ONLY worship concept in the New Testament and in the synagogue under the Monarchy:

1Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to [public] reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.





 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.42.38

Re: Is Doing Good Works a Factor or Necessary in Conversion?

October 12 2012, 10:04 AM 

If Tom and B were in the same room and if someone said, "All those who believe Jesus is the Son of God, raise your hands," if B raised his hand and then saw Tom raise his, I do believe B would put his hand down, just so he wouldn't agree with Tom. Or if Tom raised his hand first, B wouldn't raise his hand, just so he wouldn't agree with Tom. happy.gif

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.247.239

Re: Is Doing Good Works a Factor or Necessary in Conversion?

October 12 2012, 12:50 PM 

I see that Dave is unable to create an original anecdote of his own: he can only twist around the anecdotes of others.

 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.5.219

Re: Is Doing Good Works a Factor or Necessary in Conversion?

October 12 2012, 12:58 PM 

Do you think that the air pressure is running low in his head.happy.gif

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.42.38

Re: Is Doing Good Works a Factor or Necessary in Conversion?

October 12 2012, 4:31 PM 

"An anecdote is a short and amusing or interesting account, which may depict a real incident or person.[1] Anecdotes can be as brief as the setting and provocation of a bon mot. An anecdote is always presented as based in a real incident[2] involving actual persons, whether famous or not, usually in an identifiable place. However, over time, modification in reuse may convert a particular anecdote to a fictional piece, one that is retold but is "too good to be true". Sometimes humorous, anecdotes are not jokes, because their primary purpose is not simply to evoke laughter, but to reveal a truth more general than the brief tale itself, or to delineate a character trait in such a light that it strikes in a flash of insight to its very essence."

Hey William, do I need to quote my source? happy.gif

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.15.94

Re: Is Doing Good Works a Factor or Necessary in Conversion?

October 12 2012, 6:36 PM 

I'm not surprised that Dave had to look up the definition of "anecdote," because he confused it with "antidote." Now that Dave has finally learned what an anecdote is, maybe he can create some original ones of his own. But is Dave THAT creative? happy.gif

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.42.38

Re: Is Doing Good Works a Factor or Necessary in Conversion?

October 12 2012, 4:36 PM 

Original anecdote? The poster, in question, would have been closer to original had they put in "Shame on you, William (B) Crump! happy.gif"

 
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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)
72.209.196.118

good works and baptism

October 12 2012, 6:28 PM 


Regarding this topic I ask all to consider that God has made good on all the promises he has made to mankind. Consider the many issues the children of Israel got into with their surrounding nations. In each instance God gave directions thru the prophets and others on what to do .... and if they did it he would bless them in some war or provide a best way out of problems they created by their unfaithfulness. Baptism is an act commanded by God which has no equivalent in Gods word - we are buried with him and raised to walk in newness of life. Gods promise is the forgiveness of all sins previous which is what separated us form God in the first place. Which good work puts us into Christ? Which good work causes God to forgive sin? Now back to the children of israel - when they didn't comply with the specifications they didn't get the promise. The same is true with baptism - if we want the promise we have to comply with the command. The promise of God is for those who are baptized!

Remember the teaching in Matt 7 that the wise build their house on the rock - they who hear the commands and do them.

Comments Welcome






 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: good works and baptism

October 15 2012, 6:45 PM 

The audience to which a command or commands are directed must be clearly delineated. Here are examples of this delineation:

(1) The command to be buried with Christ in baptism is to this particular audience: the sinner [one outside of Christ]. It is for the purpose of redemption from all his previous sins in the blood of the Lamb, without which there is no initial salvation.

If it were a command directed to one who is already a Christian, then that "Christian" would need to be baptized frequently and as frequently as when he commemorates the Lord's sacrifice and death on the cross {as Racnor seems to suggest). But that is not the case, scripturally speaking.

(2) On the other hand, the command to commemorate the Lord's death is directed to the Christian (one who is already a member of the Lord's body. Otherwise, if that were not the case, then, the sinner would need to observe the Lord's Supper prior to his conversion.


(1) "Faith" without "works" is to the one outside of Christ. [Ephesians 2:8,9]
----------------------- versus -----------------
(2) "Faith and works" is to the one in Christ -- already a Christian. [Ephesians 2:10}

What a contrast from the same chapter -- Ephesians 2.

This will be discussed soon. Ephesians 2:8,9 without Ephesians 2:10 has caused a lot of confusion in the religious world. Let's settle this issue with supporting scriptures -- there is a line of demarcation between:

(1) The initial salvation (conversion -- faith without works)
----------------------- and -----------------
(2) The present salvation (the Christian maintaining good works).

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.81.195

Re: good works and baptism

October 15 2012, 7:11 PM 

The "scholars" love to spread hate against Alexander Campbell and the "rebaptism" concept.

If it were a command directed to one who is already a Christian, then that "Christian" would need to be baptized frequently and as frequently as when he commemorates the Lord's sacrifice and death on the cross {as Racnor seems to suggest). But that is not the case, scripturally speaking.


It was not Campbell but the SECTS who were teaching that if one had to be baptized to be saved (remission of sins, confessing Christ, being added to the church) THEN say the simple simons one would have to be baptized EACH time they sinned. Campbell was saying that if one believed that they were baptized on the basis of THEIR own faith, they they had to be baptized FOR the remission of sins.

The KEY failure of the Phduhs is that every time they see the word SAVED they make that saved in the sense of being baptized INTO Christ or into discipleship to the Word. I wouldn't expect they will ever give that up since they have been postdestined to ridicule the prophecies of Christ, the command and example of Jesus and the historic understanding.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.6.175

Re: Is Doing Good Works a Factor or Necessary in Conversion?

October 20 2012, 1:40 PM 

This will be discussed soon. Ephesians 2:8,9 without Ephesians 2:10 has caused a lot of confusion in the religious world. Let's settle this issue with supporting scriptures -- there is a line of demarcation between:

(1) The initial salvation (conversion -- faith without works)
----------------------- and -----------------
(2) The present salvation (the Christian maintaining good works).


No one can miss the point that our initial salvation, remission of sins, being translated into a heavenly kingdom and being given A holy spirit or A good conscience is ONLY by obeying the command to be baptized. That is the Christ-chosen way.

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.81.32 on Oct 20, 2012 6:20 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.10.123

Calling on the Name of the Lord

October 24 2012, 2:11 PM 

Max Lucado and all of his merry gang say that you should "Just look up and call God Father" and you will be saved. John Mark Hicks defines as Legalists and Patternists those who repeat the statements in Scripture which clearly say that there is REMISSION OF SINS only for those who have OBEYED that form or TYPE as "a pattern intended to be imitated."

No one can have enough doctorates of the law NOT to just quote:

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Not having any urge to discipleship those seeking a PROFESSION possibly do not have the permission of Jesus to read BLACK text on BROWN PAPER. God picked Paul:

Acts 22:14 And he said,
.....The God of our fathers
.....hath appointed thee to know his will,
.....and to see the Righteous One,
.....and to hear a voice from his mouth.
Acts 22:15 For thou shalt be a witness for him unto all men
.....of what thou hast seen and heard.
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou?
.....arise, and be baptized,
.....and wash away thy sins,
.....calling on his name.


Jesus specificially disqualified the Lord, Lord Prophesiers (singers and players) so it is simple minded for Max and all of the Blogsimps to parrot him. In the ASV notes and parallel passages Romans 10:13 means:

Rom. 10:13 is "Whosoever shall call the name of the Lord upon himself shall be saved"

Footnotes James 2:7
14    In Grk that was invoked over you, referring to their baptism in which they confessed their faith in Christ and were pronounced to be his own. To have the Lords name named over them is OT imagery for the Lords ownership of his people (cf. 2 Chr 7:14; Amos 9:12; Isa 63:19; Jer 14:9; 15:16; Dan 9:19; Acts 15:17).


The FIRST list of ways call is used:
epika^le ,
A. summon a god to a sacrifice or as witness to an oath, etc., invoke, theon Hdt.2.39, 3.8, al.; epi de kaleson Artemin Ar.Lys. 1280, cf. Act.Ap.7.59, etc.; e. theon tini invoke a god over one, to be gracious to him, Hdt.1.199; or, watch over his good faith, Id.3.65: Med.,Id.1.87, al., X.HG2.3.55, al.; epikalesamenos ton theon OGI194.18 (Egypt, i B.C.).


Those who TAMPER with Baptism OR the Lord, Lord musical prophesiers have kissed their souls goodby.

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.


Confess does not mean "I believe" but:

homolog-e I. agree with, say the same thing as, II. correspond, agree with,
*2. agree to a thing, grant, concede,



 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.66.16

Born of Water, Word Spirit Part A.

October 25 2012, 4:28 PM 

[linked image]

 
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ken sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.1.170

Re: Is Doing Good Works a Factor or Necessary in Conversion?

October 26 2012, 2:47 PM 

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.1.170

Born of Spirit is Born of the Word Part 2

October 26 2012, 7:52 PM 

When God breaths out His Spirit or Mind is like the Wind or a person's breath: it is invisible and inaudible but carries great power, The Son of God is the Word of God to all trinitarian inventors. Jesus Speaks or makes audible that SPIRIT without measure (metron maybe since there is nothing in meter to sing).

The original apostles and later Paul had to SEE and HEAR Jesus now named The Holy Spirit (1 John 2) to qualify them to see and hear the risen Jesus of Nazareth (Acts 22:8) to qualify them (ONLY) to leave us a memory of THEIR inspired teachings. The Spirit (breath) produces the audible or written Word. Anyone who says that "a" spirit told them to ignore the prophets and apostles is a demonic spirit.

[linked image]

 
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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)
72.209.196.118

Those who lead should follow Paul's example

November 4 2012, 9:16 PM 


Those who regard themselves as leaders should follow the example of Paul. The Spirit said this in explicit words found in Phil 3. Paul penned the words indicating that he set aside his training and upbringing and all the associated esteem. This setting aside was done to further the all encompassing goal of gaining Christ. Those "leaders" of various digression today would do well to take heed to this passage. Paul says he counts "all things" as rubbish compared to gaining Christ. It appears to me that many of our issues today have begun because certain "leaders" want the approval and praise of men inside and outside the Lords church. How sad!

Consider also the instructions of the Spirit through Paul in II Thess 3. He gives a significant statement in vs 9 saying that they are examples to be followed. There is no hint of pleasing men be they social, political or religious leaders - just the plain word of God.

Fear God and keep his commandments for this is the whole purpose of man.

Comments Welcome

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
174.252.156.138

Re: Those who lead should follow Paul's example

November 21 2012, 1:23 PM 

All of scholarship understood that we are SAVED by baptism. The faith-only passages have to do with remaining in a saved state.

http://www.piney.com/Irenaeus.Holy.Spirit.Apostolic.Preaching.Demo.IV.III.html

Irenaeus Holy Spirit and Apostolic Preaching: 3. Now, that we may not suffer ought of this kind, we must needs hold the rule of the faith without deviation, and do the commandments of God, believing in God and fearing Him as Lord and loving Him as Father. Now this doing is produced |72 by faith: for Isaiah says: If ye believe not, neither shall ye understand. [10. Isa. vii. 9 ]

And faith is produced by the truth; for faith rests on things that truly are.

For in things that are, as they are, we believe; and believing in things that are, as they ever are, we keep firm our confidence in them.

Since then faith is the perpetuation of our salvation, we must needs bestow much pains on the maintenance thereof, in order that we may have a true comprehension of the things that are. Now faith occasions this for us; even as the Elders, the disciples of the Apostles, have handed down to us.


However we RECEIVED salvation ONLY at baptism

First of all it bids us bear in mind that we have received baptism for the remission of sins, in the name of God the Father, and in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was incarnate and died and rose again, and in the Holy Spirit of God. And that this baptism is the seal of eternal life, and is the new birth and is over all things that are made, and all things are put under Him |73 and all the things that are put under Him are made His own; for God is not ruler and Lord over the things of another, but over His own; and all things are God's; and therefore God is Almighty, and all things are of God. unto God, that we should no longer be the sons of mortal men, but of the eternal and perpetual God; and that what is everlasting and continuing is made God;

So, in Ephesians 2 the TOTAL FOUNDATION of the Faith Only deniers of Christ, SALVATION is every day by Grace through faith. And by looking at the first part of Ephesians 2 you can see that if you ARE continuing to be saved by REJECTING the pagan worship which the MUSICATORS think that Grace permits them to CONTINUE even after they were baptized.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Baptismal Regeneration

December 1 2012, 3:33 PM 

Robert has posted a response (December 1 2012, 3:06 PM) to Ken's response to his question concerning the thief on the cross. (I'm sure Ken will take notice of this and discuss the issue further.)

Meanwhile, let's note that this is a very important subject matter often brought up as a defense by those who adhere to the notion "that once saved, always saved" or "that baptism is not necessary or is not a requirement to receiving forgiveness of sins in the conversion process."

But let's examine the Scripture.

 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.6.52

Re: Is Doing Good Works a Factor or Necessary in Conversion?

December 1 2012, 7:08 PM 

First, since the kingdom as the Church would not begin with power until the day of Pentecost, it would question the intelligence of Jesus if He told the thief that he would be in the kingdom THAT DAY.

=Jesus had to suffer, die, be resurrected, and appear to a number of witnesses.
=Then he had to be transfigured or CHANGED into His Holy Spirit state.
=He had to typically take His blood into the tabernacle in heaven for the cleansing of believers.
=He had to return on the day of Pentecost as Holy Spirit and pour out His BREATH and WIND.
=Only then did the Apostles receive the promised kingdom.
=They preached the gospel in Jerusalem and OPENED the kingdom.
=Those who believed, repented and were baptized had their spirits translated into the heavenly kingdom.

=Jesus could NOT have said THIS DAY will you be ADDED to the Church which is never without obedience and baptism.
=Baptism was to make the believers DISCIPLES with A holy spirit able to comprehend the Words of Christ.
=The Thief would be dead and had no need to become a DISCIPLE by baptism.
=The Thief would be dead and could not be added to the kingdom as Church.
=The Thief could not become a DISCIPLE or STUDENT which is THE promise for which people were baptized in obedience to a command.

The thief lived BEFORE the kingdom or Church which is the only rational reason for discussing baptizm.
Before the cross the prophesied baptism TO BE ACCEPTED as a DISCIPLE (Bible student) had no meaning.

Before the BEGINNING of the Kingdom of God in Christ people were judged on the basis of their faith in God and the practice of justice: this was the NAIL upon which the Law of Moses (given because of transgression being instrumental idolatry) hung.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation
.....he that feareth him,
.....and worketh righteousness,
.....is accepted with him.


=God fearers were accepted by God and needed no ceremonial washing.
=The Law of Moses Ceased and Jesus gave power to His ekklesia (synagogue) which is A school of the Words of Christ in the prophets, Jesus and the Apostles.
=Those who build on the foundation of a Thief to trump ALL of the direct commands DO NOT understand that salvation or remission of sins was the ENTRANCE command of Jesus before HE would accept you as HIS student.
=Those who build on the foundation of the thief make a point of debunking the church as the EXCLUSIVE "safe house" for the tiny few who understand that becoming a STUDENT does not mean to become a BUTTERFLY to perform religious observations: Jesus said that HIS Kingdom does not come with ritual observations so it matters not whether they are baptized or not.
=They will shout loud and clear in the morning that WE DON'T INTEND to be a School of the Word: we intend to become a theater for holy entertainment.
=This is defacto proof that God has send strong delusions that they believe their own lie and be damned.

Before the death of the TESTATOR one can dispose of their property any way they wish.
AFTER their death the disposal is regulated by the LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT.
Jesus could not BESTOW something he claimed only the Father could give.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ,
.....who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God,
purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


A holy spirit is A good Conscience or a conscience which has been PURGED.
Acts 2:38 promises A holy spirit only after obedience in baptism
1 Peter 3:21 Peter says that BAPTISM SAVES YOU because you REQUEST A good conscience or consciousness

That PURGING happens only when our bodies are washed

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith,
.....having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience,
.....and our bodies washed with pure water.


At the same time that we submit to water baptism God PURGES our OWN heart or spirit from being and EVIL conscience.
An evil conscience which has been purged becomes A pure or holy spirit.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament,
.....that by means of death,
.....for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament,
.....they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is,
.....there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hebrews 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead:
.....otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


Whatever the meaning of Jesus personal promise to the Thief, it has nothing and COULD NOT have anything to do with the only prophesied and fulfilled way to APPLY to Jesus Christ to be accepted as a Disciple. A Disciple of Christ is a Student of Christ. A Disciple does not question His Master's direct commands which promises remission of sins ONLY by obeying the direct with a penalty attached for NOT obeying the gospel.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.193.6.52 on Dec 1, 2012 7:16 PM


 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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