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Women cannot be Musical Worship Ministers Part One

October 18 2012 at 3:56 PM
Ken Sublett  (Login Ken.Sublett)
from IP address

The "pattern" is ALWAYS to silence the religious performers as a PRECONDITION to holding School of the Word. Paul in Timothy was simply repeating the PATTERN ordained by Jesus.

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This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Oct 20, 2012 8:56 PM

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What say you?

October 19 2012, 10:31 AM 

1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled dishonoreth her head; for it is one and the same thing as if she were shaven.

How does this fit in with the statement

1 Cor 14: 34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.

And considering.

Acts 21: 9 Now this man had four virgin daughters, who prophesied.
What say you?

Is prophesying an exception to 1 Cor 14:34?

Where do Philip's daughters fit in with the other passages?

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Women cannot be Musical Worship Ministers Part One

October 19 2012, 1:47 PM 

And considering.

Acts 21: 9 Now this man had four virgin daughters, who prophesied.
What say you?

You know, but THEY don't know that there is a difference between a writing PROPHET and a PROPHESIER. "Prophesying" is the pagan THESIS and God made certain that we understand the Godly ANTITHESIS.

The prophesied PROPHESYING and DREAMING I believe is a SIGN of the time of Pentecost.
The youth prophesying is well documented. Speaking of Cane Ridge but excusing Churches of Christ from the outrage Elmer Clark notes what historic scholarship makes certain.

The ecstatic person was 'in the divinity' and out of normal consciousness. Cicero makes prophecy and madness practically synonymous."
The religious ecstasy induced by music expressed itself either in an outburst of emotions,
thus giving rise to religious catharsis,
or in a transfer to the state of prophecy.

In this way music became an important factor in divination.
In the mysteries of the Magna Mater [ZOE]
this relationship between music and divination is particularly clear.
Through the din of tambourines, cymbals and flutes
the ecstatic worshiper of the goddess prophesied the future to those present. (Clark, Elmer T., The Small Sects in America, p. 86, Abingdon)

The Spirit of Christ in Zechariah prophesied of this event as well as defines the future REST as exclusive of the performing artists (rhetoricians, singers, musicians in Ezekiel 33).

Zechariah 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David
.....and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zechariah 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts,
.....that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land,
.....and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets
.....and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Zechariah 13:3 And it shall come to pass,
.....that when any shall yet prophesy,
.....then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him,
.....Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD:
.....and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
Zechariah 13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day,
.....that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied;
.....neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
Zechariah 13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman ;
for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say unto him,
.....What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer,
.....Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Zechariah 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow,
.....saith the LORD of hosts:
.....smite the shepherd,
.....and the sheep shall be scattered:
.....and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD,
.....two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire,
.....and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried:
.....they shall call on my name, and I will hear them:
.....I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.


Acts 21:8 And the next day we that were of Pauls company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.

Acts 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

God steps in to send a message.

Acts 21:10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.

Acts 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Pauls girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

Acts 21:12 And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem.

Christ speaks only through the writing prophets

They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law
or to the words that the LORD Almighty
had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets.
So the LORD Almighty was very angry. Zechariah 7:12

Therefore it is come to pass, that
as he cried, and they would not hear;
so they cried, and I would not hear,
saith the Lord of hosts: Zechariah 7:13

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Emotion, Prophecy, and Repetition

October 19 2012, 3:39 PM 

You quoted Elmer Clark as saying,

"The ecstatic person was 'in the divinity' and out of normal consciousness. Cicero makes prophecy and madness practically synonymous."
The religious ecstasy induced by music expressed itself either in an outburst of emotions,
thus giving rise to religious catharsis,
or in a transfer to the state of prophecy. "

REPETITION also evokes ecstasy, and the emotion that goes with it. "If you say it enough, people are going to believe it." Recurring phrases cast the person into a psychological trance, where logic and reason leave the scene, and raw emotions project (not elevates) the human into unreasonable behavior. This happens especially at night when the senses are dulled, and there is less attention to human behavior. The Nazi rallies in the 1930s occurred at night, with the emotional effects of lighting, fire, and the evocation of raw emotion, where speakers were not rational but purely emoted. The speaking person would lose his identity and sink into the presence of that of which he was speaking. Thus Hitler cease to be an individual, and became "Germany", and this transferrence was an addiction that the populace could not overcome. Ultimately, annihilation and degradation robbed them psychologically until there was no Fuhrer, and the land was in utter ruin. I'm sure you can find parallels in the prophecies of Isaiah and Jeremiah.

Hitler's becoming Germany was an evocation of the insanity of repetition and prophecy where he stepped "into the divinity," as Clark suggested, and he was spiritual Germany, the "divinity" in front of their eyes. All rationality ceased in the Reich, decisions were made by emotion not logic, and Europe descended into the "gates of hell."

REPETITION in songs as well as prayers are two areas to which we should pay great attention.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Emotion, Prophecy, and Repetition

October 19 2012, 4:40 PM 

It is pretty simple for people not to recognize that when they can feel or emote over a song or singer that they are under the control of that person. Whatever the preacher, elder or musician says under that influence flies under the rational mind. The next day that person will say that THEY always believed what the lying preacher said. This and other forums prove it. The SEEKER term is right out of Mein Kampf and hitler boasted that the "common material" had gladly joined in gambling away their kingdom. We are THERE and we are not faring much better. If a member of the team will NOW boast that they took the youth to the musical retreats to TEACH THEM TO LEAVE OUR MOVEMENT and will lie to God and About God saying that he COMMANDED INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE and we had better NOT be disobedient, he would chop off your head if he thought he could get away with it.

The Laded Burden is heavy laded toward religious rituals including the songs, as you note, that repeat, repeat, repeat. Hitler taught Goebels that if you repeat a lie often enough people will believe it. That's been the pattern of the change movement which intended to RESTRUCTURE ALL CHURCHES OF CHRIST as the Disciples restructered.

Notice that the burden points to "Threskia" which was the IMPURE religion of Orphus etal which used music to seduce the "audience" so they could pick their pockets. Anyone with eyes and ears would see Jesus narrowly defining PURE religion and ask: "What is IMPURE religion."

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Women cannot be Musical Worship Ministers Part One

October 19 2012, 2:31 PM 

Of the prophesying in 1 Corinthians 14 I will have to post this as pictures for now: I will make certain that my notes with clickable links is in my look at 1 Corinthians 13.

I don't have the time or ability to do more than try to make certain that disciples have REAL resources they can look up for themselves. Failure to define words in their original setting is responsible for all false teachings. Wish they people could understand that Jesus set the pattern of 'Come OUT, Rest (cool it) and Learn of Me.' I believe that He is insulted (reproached) by the massed multitudes trying to set up magical ritual formulas to MAKE CERTAIN that God doesn't fail--again in their view.

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This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Oct 19, 2012 2:39 PM

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Women cannot be Musical Worship Ministers Part One

October 19 2012, 4:56 PM 

Responding to Scripture's notes on Hitler.Rubel Shelly actually referred to Machiaveli to explain why you had to be patient in making changes--making yourself prince of someone one's property.

The MASS MEETINGS such as Jubilee and Tulsa and all of the UNITY meetings by the NACC knew that the familiarity of people joined together would break down the barriers and make it impossible to even refute lies. You should have heard the WRATH poured out when CM suggested a Hitler component to the largely failed INFILTRATE AND DIVERT to make everyone USE INSTRUMENTS or be so SHAMED into silence that they would NEVER say anything against instruments and instrumentalists again. This was psychological violence and they are still at it. Gary Holloway one of the early Lipscomb troublers now works for the Disciples of Christ.

The Rationale of the Community Church swipe was specificially to DENOUNCE individual minds and promote the GROUP MENTALITY. (Shelly). That's where the individual abandones their right to Read, Interpret and Speak any Biblblical text. He must give way for the GROUP interpretation (Shelly of course).

I contrasted the two peace treaties, compared them point for point, showed the actual boundless humanity of the one treaty compared to the inhuman cruelty of the second, and the result was telling.

At that time I spoke on this theme at meetings of two thousand people, and
often I was struck by the glances of three thousand six hundred hostile eyes.
And three hours later I had before me a surging mass full of the holiest indignation and boundless wrath.

Again a great lie had been torn out of the hearts and brains of a crowd numbering thousands, and a truth implanted in its place.

I considered these two lectures on 'The True Causes of the World War' and on 'The Peace Treaties of Brest-Litovsk and Versailles,' the most important of all, and

so I repeated and repeated them dozens of times, always renewing the form, until, on this point at least, a certain clear and unified conception became current among the people from among whom the movement gathered its first members.

For myself, moreover, the meetings had the advantage that I gradually transformed myself into a speaker for mass meetings, that I became practiced in the pathos and the gestures which a great hall, with its thousands of people, demands.

The mass meeting is also necessary for the reason that in it the individual, who at first while becoming a supporter of a young movement, feels lonely and easily succumbs to the fear of being alone, for the first time gets the picture of a larger community, which in most people has a strengthening, encouraging effect.

The same man, within a company or a battalion, surrounded by all his comrades, would set out on an attack with a lighter heart than if left entirely on his own.

In the crowd he always feels somewhat sheltered, even if a thousand reasons actually argue against it.

But the community of the great demonstration not only strengthens the individual, it also unites and helps to create an esprit de corps. The man who is exposed to grave tribulations, as the first advocate of a new doctrine in his factory or workshop,

absolutely needs that strengthening which lies in the conviction of being a member and fighter in a great comprehensive body.

And he obtains an impression of this body for the first time in the mass demonstration. When from his little workshop or big factory, in which he feels very small,

he steps for the first time into a mass meeting and has thousands and thousands of people of the same opinions around him, when, as a seeker, (Als Suchender.' A Wagnerian phrase, which Hitler was apparently determined to use at all costs)

he is swept away by three or four thousand others into the mighty effect of suggestive intoxication and enthusiasm,

when the visible success and agreement of thousands confirm to him the rightness of the new doctrine and for the first time arouse doubt in the truth of his previous conviction -

then he himself has succumbed to the magic influence of what we designate as 'mass suggestion.'

The will, the longing, and also the power of thousands are accumulated in every individual. The man who enters such a meeting doubting and wavering leaves it inwardly reinforced: he has become a link in the community.

The National Socialist movement must never forget this and in particular
it must never let itself be influenced by those bourgeois s who know everything better,
but who nevertheless have gambled away a great state including their own existence and the rule of their class.

Oh, yes, they are very, very clever, they know everything, understand everything - only one thing they did not understand, how to prevent the German people from falling into the arms of Marxism. In this they miserably and wretchedly failed, so that their present conceit is only arrogance, which in the form of pride, as everyone knows, always thrives on the same tree as stupidity.

If today these people attribute no special value to the spoken word, they do so, it must be added, only because, thank the Lord, they have become thoroughly convinced by now of the ineffectualness of their own speechmaking.

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ken Sublett
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Re: Women cannot be Musical Worship Ministers Part One

October 23 2012, 11:59 AM 

You might be surprised that pseudo-conservatives can be so hostil against people who continue to teach what the Bible and all recorded history says against pretenders and religious music. They are quite willing to ignore the fact that a body of well-organized and funded men will never cease using Biblical ignorance to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter" with instruments. The SOLE original rationale for deliberately sowing discord is the PSALLO word.

The word "psallo" has never at any time in recorded history meant melody in a tuneful sense.
The word "psallo" has never and could never mean to "pluck" + "named instrument."
Where "psallo" is used meaning to pluck a bow string to make it "twang" to send forth an "arrow" into the literal heart it is not making music.
When "psallo" is used to shoot a love arrow it is not making music.
The word "psallo" has never and can never mean "make music."
Psallo means "pluck with your fingers only and never with a plectrum."
You cannot "psallo" with a guitar pick, flute, drum, organ or piano.
Where the Jewish imposed "psallo" is used to translate zamar or nagan is means to pluck a string. If someone sings (single note) TO a psallowed string it does not mean music.
There is never a single word meaning to "play + an + instrument."

To even ALLOW the use of making a vocal note correspond to an instrumental sound, you (Paul and the Spirit of Christ) must be literate enough to use a compound word exactly as you would in english.

Anti-psallo , a stringed instrument in accompaniment of song,

BarbitOidos singing to the barbiton.

HupAuleo to play on the flute in accompaniment, melody (melos never psallo)

HupoKitharizo play an accompaniment on the harp

Not commanded by Paul:
KitharOidesis singing to the cithra

Lusioidos one who played women's characters in male attire, Auloi flutes that accompany such songs.

Kat-auleo , A. charm by flute-playing,drinking wine to the strains of the flute,

Katapsall singing to a stringed instruments to,

Epi-psall , A. play the lyre, S.Fr.60, Poll.4.58Pass.); melesi kai rhuthmois to be played to on the flute with lyre accompaniment,

There is a seeming conflict between Ephesians 5 where Paul makes "singing and melody IN the heart" and Colossians 3 where he makes "singing with GRACE in the heart."

Scripture has shown lots of passages proving that the teaching-learning process insists on MEDITATING or thinking about what you have learned. You can learn or plant a Biblical truth in your mind by repeating it several times or MEDITATING on that passage. Since the purpose of the "singing" passages is to TEACH AND ADMONISH with "that which is written for our learning" it is important to look at how the "Melos" in the minds of the Jewish translators (in 70 days) could account for the different translations which spilled over into english.

If they wanted to mean MUSICAL MELODY the common word would be MELOS. At the same time, the MEDITATING in the heart is MELO in one form or another. GRACE in Colossians 3 includes

5485 CHARIS an act especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life

The same meaning in Ephesians 5 would be

A. to be an object of care or thought, or in act. sense, care for, take an interest in. Take thoought
B. with an object, care for, take an interest in a thing

I submit that the MELOS word would be MELO to agree with CHARIS or Grace in Colossians 3.

That is verified by the fact that the LOGOS type words such as RHEMA are the direct oppossite of SINGING or musical melody. This is especially important since the ACT of singing has little intention left of teaching one another with "that which is written for our learning." Rather, the MUSIC concept is used to drive out the owners (that heresy word) and take over their property by the use of musical "prophesiers" called soothsayers or sorcerers.

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