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"Confusion About 'Salvation Issues.'" (by Scripture)

November 12 2012 at 4:32 PM
[for] Scripture  (Login Donnie.Cruz)
from IP address

In this thread: "Madison's New (Instrumental) 'Vision'" initiated by MCC-TORN, Scripture posted the following concern, November 12 2012, 12:07 AM --
3. Confusion about "salvation issues." 40 Days contains teaching that one can "pray through" to salvation. First, the lesson from Rick Warren is presented. When the difficult teaching occurs, the video must be stopped, and then it must be untaught. Maybe it would be a good idea to insert a video for the self-appointed eldership about what would be the "scriptural" teaching to replace "Warren's prayer."

At ConcernedMembers' discretion, this bold assertion by one of its very knowledgeable posters deserves attention not only at Madison but also in the entire brotherhood -- the reason why it is being initiated as a thread in itself. While Rick Warren with his Community Church Movement is still not exactly the role model in the mainstream churches of Christ, and there's still time.... Yes, he has already become an undisputed role model for/in certain mega churches of Christ: Oak Hills Church [formerly "... of Christ"], The Hills Church ... [formerly Richland Hills ...], including Madison.

It's been about "40 Days" here; it's been about "40 Days" there among certain churches of Christ. Just check out their websites. True that "40 Days" is a biblical numbering system, but unfortunately it is not about 40-day biblical events. Rather, it's been about 40 days of Rick Warren indoctrination among certain congregations in the church that Christ established.

Let's discuss the Community Church Movement theology being championed by the world-famed, culture-driven Rick Warren of the Saddleback Community Church in CA!!!!!!

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[for] Scripture
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Baptism: Returning to the Basic Truth

November 12 2012, 4:59 PM 

The mainline churches of Christ still cling to the truth that one outside of God's family who is to be redeemed in the blood of Christ needs to be buried with Christ in baptism:

(1) in order to have his sins REMITTED or BLOTTED OUT and
(2) in order to be REFRESHED or have a CLEAR CONSCIENCE [a PURE and HOLY spirit in the man].

On the other hand, Rick Warren is changing God's truth to his own teaching:

(2) that the gift received is the Trinitarian deity of the third person "the Holy Spirit as GOD."

See the difference between the truth and the gospel according to Warren?

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

An Example of "Praying Through" to Salvation (Without Baptism)

November 12 2012, 11:25 PM 


"Right now I confess Jesus as the Lord of my soul. With my heart, I believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. This very moment I accept Jesus Christ as my own personal Savior and according to His Word, right now I am saved."

Further, this is stated: "If you just said this prayer and you meant it with all your heart, we believe that you just got saved and are born again. You may ask, "Now that I am saved, what's next?". First of all you need to get into a bible-based church, and study God's Word. Once you have found a church home, you will want to become water-baptized. By accepting Christ you are baptized in the spirit, but it is through water-baptism that you show your obedience to the Lord. Water baptism is a symbol of your salvation from the dead. You were dead but now you live, for the Lord Jesus Christ has redeemed you for a price! The price was His death on the cross. May God Bless You!"

CAUTION: Rick Warren, pastor of the Saddleback Community Church in CA, formerly a Baptist pastor, teaches this sinner's prayer in order for the sinner to be saved.

Unfortunately, many of the change agents operating in the brotherhood, seem to be accepting of this dogma: "Be saved NOW; be baptized LATER."

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Listen Carefully

November 13 2012, 8:05 AM 

It might be beneficial to listen closely to each of the "Shepherd's Prayer" on Sunday mornings.

This could bring to light which ones believe that baptism is "an outward expression of an inner grace."

There appear to be several Churches of Christ arouond whose speakers believe that.

You might also notice if any of them are "clones" for some of the others.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Listen Carefully

November 13 2012, 11:19 PM 

Baptism is certainly the only thing that we can see. And it is a sign or PROOF of what happens when God makes our spirit into A holy spirit.

You have to be anti-biblical and anti-christian to say that baptism is a sign of what HAPPENED BEFORE you were baptized. That would call the Spirit of Christ in the Prophets, the example of Jesus, the commands of Jesus, Peter and paul and men like Justin Martyr, Luther, Calvin and most.

No one ever said "Baptism does not save" without quickly adding "without faith." The only people who would have blasphemed otherwise were refuting the Catholics who said that an infant was saved based on the parent's faith. Churches of Christ make BELIEF a requirement for baptism and do not believe that dipping in water saves you.

Jesus who bore the sins of the world and "wore filthy garments" (says Zechariah) obeyed His Father. Only then did the Father define Jesus as His Son.

Peter says that BAPTISM SAVES because under Christ we are baptized to request A good conscience or A holy spirit.

Paul was told to be baptized to wash away his sins.

Paul in Romans 6 said that only AFTER they had obeyed that form or "a pattern intended to be imitated" were they then FREE FROM SIN.

So they have rejected Scripture once too often and God has sent strong delusions so that they really believe their own lies. There is probably no way to convince them otherwise when the universal evidence demands baptism and they have not a jot or tittle that FAITH saves them until FAITH is defined as "complying with what you believe." Believeth not or Apistos means "I will not comply with the association between faith and baptism requited to be saved in the REMISSION OF SINS sense.

In Donnie's question, the Faith Only has to do with our ongoing walk. We will always be saved by FAITH which comes from hearing the word. But, faith has no meaning as pistis until we rest or trust by acting.

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Tom Brite
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Re: Listen Carefully

November 14 2012, 7:03 AM 

For me, the best example of biblical salvation is the story of the conversion of Saul/Paul in the book of Acts. Paul, even though given to days of fasting and prayer still had his sins? Was it because he had not said the right prayer? No, he was told to "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins." One can not be saved without first washing away sins. That only comes in baptism.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Preachers are not taught to read the Story Line so they don't know the plot.

November 14 2012, 1:42 PM 

Alexander Campbell agreed that the WORD is the SEED: if the seed is planted in good soil and the birds (demons) don't take it away, it will germinate and grow into a new plant and produce fruit. I planted Fescue and Red and White clover about a month ago: MANY will germinate but FEW will be saved over the winter. Many or Most are called but FEW are chosen: chosen means tested as by fire and they will not be ultimately saved unless they REMAIN FAITHFUL. If they teach and believe lies and say that God permits instrumental music when He denies that, they blaspheme the Spirit OF Christ and have no hope: God sends the to Babylonia defined in Revelation 17f and into the Lake of Fire.

Only those who have been baptized are given A holy spirit (theirs) or A good conscience, consciousness or a CO-perception. They have become DISCIPLES (not ritualists) of Christ and a Disciple is a STUDENT and does not make infantile and effeminate acts when Jesus Christ (the NOW Comforter) is our ONLY teacher when the Elders teach that which has been taught. Rick Warren is a Corrupter of the Word meaning "Selling the free Word of Christ at Retail. That is NOT a problem: that is the MARK that the Lamps have been removed from Christ's church MARKED by the performance preachers, singers and instrument players John and recorded history called SORCERERS: Why, they BURN witches as Joh affirms.


James 1:14 But every man is tempted,
.....when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, bringeth forth sin: and sin,
.....when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above,
.....and cometh down from the Father of lights,
.....with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,
.....that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

THAT is the Gift of God: we had and have nothing to do with it: the Madison people THINK that salvation is OF THEMSELVES--their own super faith. If we had nothing to do with it then a person NOT of the WORLD or not WISE (a Sophist--rhetorician, singer, instrument player). will understand because God DOES NOT HIDE from those who "speak that which is written for our learning."

It is DISGUSTING that people would work so hard to call everyone in history BEFORE THEM (B.T. era) Just liars.

BEGETTING does not mean that the SEED conceives by being BURIED, WATERED, AND RAISED TO A NEW LIFE.

John 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them,
.....I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger;
.....and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
.....and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

........John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
...........the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


John 6:44 No man can come to me,
.....except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
.....and I will raise him up at the last day.

How does the Father DRAW people to Him

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets,
.....And they shall be ALL taught of God.
.....Every man therefore that hath heard,
.....and hath learned of the Father,
.....cometh unto me.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children,
.....and to all that are afar off,
.....even as many as the Lord our God shall call. [invite]

.......Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
............for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
.......1Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness;
............but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort,
.....saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

How do you SAVE YOURSELF from this CROOKED RACE (The wine, women and Skolion songs--the new wineskinners)

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
.....and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Notice that they were not ADDED to them until AFTER they were baptized.

Acts 2:47KJV Praising God, and having favour with all the people.
.....And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Acts 2:47ASV praising God, and having favor with all the people.
.....And the Lord added to them day by day those that were saved
Acts 2:47NIV praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people.
.....And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

No one SHOULD be Saved if they DENY The prophecy, example and command of Jesus Christ.
You can't even join a T-ball team if you THINK you can be a star because you BELIEVE in T-Ball

Any Disciple of Christ can comprehend the Words of the Spirit and not blaspheme by calling them "just your opinion."

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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