Re: Baptism: The Saddleback Way
|November 17 2012, 11:21 PM |
Maybe they will sing all four verses of 'Just as I am' next time. That would help ya.....for sure.
That was Dave Fields -- in case Scripture wants to address a response to whomever.
|This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 18.104.22.168 on Nov 17, 2012 11:32 PM|
|November 17 2012, 11:40 PM |
It would be good to have some of the old hymns back. They're certainly a hit when they are sung.
Baking cookies while a lesson is being presented, and then having the speaker to eat one of the cookies as he exits the stage, is hardly the type of change that many would like.
"Everything old is new again" is not the wisdom of "orange."
|November 18 2012, 12:01 AM |
The biggest glitch in worship was the Sunday that the presider over the Lord's Supper "just missed" that the baptizer and obedient believer entered the pool at about the same time.
The presider made a long speech of about 5 minutes, while yet the baptism was to start, with both baptizer and respondent continuing to be in the pool--I hope the water was not cold. Then the bread was served.
Then the presiding person sat down, fully seeing the two in the baptismal pool, and yet went back up and made another speech. Then the fruit of the vine was served.
About at the end of the passing out of the fruit of the vine, the baptizer had the nerve to go ahead with the baptizing. That was a long 10 minutes or so.
Could this be another price of the "dynamic" worship?
Wow, what a dynamic worship, what an "orange" feeling! Dynamism for sure, decency and in order, can be discussed later.
It will get MUCH WORSE as God sends Delusions
|November 18 2012, 11:54 AM |
Arniobus Against Heresy
When Paul outlawd "Sel-Pleasure" as Christ did in Isaiah 58, the word means HERESY. Heresy is defined as using the performong arts which brought on reproach to Jesus--exposing His nakedness. Both the Lat and Greek defines the HERETIC is the smooth (effeminate) rhetorician (hypocrite), singers, instrument players and actors: ANYTHING intended to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter.
33. But the games which you celebrate, called Floralia and Megalensia, and all the rest which you wish to be sacred, and to be considered religious duties, what reason have they, what cause, that it was necessary that they should be instituted and founded and designated by the names of deities?
The gods are honoured by these, says thy opponent;
and if they have any recollection of offences committed by men, they lay it aside, get rid of it, and show themselves gracious to us again, their friendship being renewed.
And what is the cause, again, that they are made quite calm and gentle, if absurd things are done, and idle fellows sport before the eyes of the multitude?
Does Jupiter lay aside his resentment if the Amphitryon of Plautus is acted and declaimed? or if Europa, Leda, Ganymede, or Danae is represented by dancing does he restrain his passionate impulses? Is the Great Mother rendered more calm, more gentle, if she beholds the old story of Attis furbished up by the players?
The Great Mother or Babylonian Mother of Harlots (Revelation 17) uses lusted after fruits (same as in Amos) as speakers, actors (craftsmen), singers and instrument players. The BRIDES are John Warning against the Heiros Gamos or the Holy Sex. The Milstones make a piping sound identifying the place of the Grinder-Prostitutes. Corrupting the Word is called adultery.
Will Venus [Lucifer-Zoe] forget her displeasure if she sees mimics act the part of Adonis also in a ballet? [in dancing motions] Does the anger of Aleides die away if the tragedy of Sophocles named Trachinioe, or the Hercules of Euripides, is acted? or does Flora think
that honour is shown to her if at her games she sees that shameful actions are done, and the stews abandoned for the theatres?
Is not this, then, to lessen the dignity of the gods, to dedicate and consecrate to them the basest things which a rigidly virtuous mind will turn from with disgust, the performers of which your law has decided to be dishonoured and to be considered infamous?
The gods, forsooth, delight in mimics; and that surpassing excellence which has not been comprehended by any bureau faculty, opens [adapts] its ears most willingly to hear these plays, with most of which they know they are mixed up to be turned to derision; they are delighted, as it is, with the shaved heads of the fools, by the sound of flaps, and by the noise of applause, by shameful actions and words, by huge red fascina [microphone].
Re: Dynamic Worship
|November 18 2012, 3:35 PM |
Did this occur on Nov. 4? If so, I wasn't there at the time.
It's a bit confusing to me -- it appears that someone had the urgency to be buried with Christ in baptism in order to receive: (a) forgiveness of sins and (b) the gift of a spirit of holiness [the scriptural way per Acts 2:38; 3:19] ... at the time ... when the saints were to commemorate the Lord's suffering and death on the cross. (Long-winded, I know.]
How could both instances have occurred at the same time? A result of the emphasis on "dynamic worship"? What should have taken precedence? Baptism "before lightning strikes"?
Speaking of "dynamic worship," during the Keith Lancaster musical era, the "worship program" often included no less than 8 "praise" songs. There were times when as many as 13 musical "praise" and "feel-good" campfire songs were sung. The notion that singing of "praise songs" was real "worship" -- all else was secondary.
But now the "dynamic worship" includes women giving testimonies on stage regarding their successful social fund-raising campaigns or a "lady in pants" co-leading in "musical worship."
|November 18 2012, 3:54 PM |
This event took place several months ago.
Occasionally a baptism will take place in the middle of the worship, not after the sermon, as it did that Sunday. If the baptizer and confessor had come out just two seconds earlier, perhaps the Lord's Supper would have been delayed.
But the baptizer apparently didn't notice they were in the pool, and went on with a talk and prayer for the bread. Then sat down. At this time, he most definitely noticed the two in the pool, when he sat down in the audience. But he continued as if they were not in the pool, and had the prayer and talk for the fruit of the vine. Toward the end of passing out the fruit of the vine, the baptizer proceeded to do the baptizing, but the fruit of the vine was still being passed out. By this time 5 or 10 minutes the confessor was in the pool, as we would say "waiting for remission of sins."
What should have been done? Maybe a matter of opinion, but I personally would suggest "suspending" the Lord's Supper, and completing the baptizing. Then continue with the Lord's Supper.
This is what our press would call a "worship malfunction."
Everyone was aghast.
|November 18 2012, 3:58 PM |
Today, Nov 18, we learned that all Christians should "tithe."
There was a long video, teaching this Old Testament doctrine.
|November 18 2012, 4:17 PM |
Who is the "promoter" of tithing? I have answered all of Madison's lies about tithing under Bruce White. I will post the data which includes several articles addressing all of the issues but they need updating. For instance, one of Bruce White's justification was that the BABYLONIANS tithed.
to keep from crying.
Do you have the name of the Video Producer?
|November 18 2012, 11:27 PM |
I didn't get the publisher of the tithing video.
It was a minute or two long, just before worship began.
It did mention Malachi 3, I believe.
|November 18 2012, 5:23 PM |
If a Christian congregation teaches Old Testament tithing as a must-do thing, then it might as well teach Saturday worship, burning sacrifices, and observing "holy" days like Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, Passover...in short upholding all the tenets of the Mosaic Law.
|November 18 2012, 6:10 PM |
That's True: we have noted that God turned the Jews over to worship the starry host. After the instrumental fall from Grace at Mount Sinai, God commanded that the Jacob-cursed Levites "stand in ranks" to execute any godly person who came near or into any holy place. That is because none of it was commanded and the Monarchy was patterned after Babylon to which they were sentenced for captivity and death.
In order that the Levites bore the burdens of the system and their own sins, God gave Levi no inheritance but gave them a tenth of the PROFIT from the FARMS ONLY stolen from the Canaanites and owned by the tribes: it was rented to the people and in return the people who got free food producing property (only) were to pay tithes which went to various groups. Only 3 or 4 of the 7-year cycle went to the tribe of Levi. The tribe gave the priests ten percent of the ten percent to keep people on guard at the temple in a rotating cycle.
The food (only) was stored at the temple and was given as a DAILY DOLE to the priests and Levites when they were on rare duty.
The other yearly tithes were stored at home for the poor, taken to the yearly festivals which were musters for draft age males, and the 7th year no one planted so there was no tithe.
So, these people are ignorant of the Old Testament and are attempting to collect 7 out 7 years RENT directly for the 'priests' without first having GIVEN the farmers FREE FARMS. Once you hit the slippery slope it is likely that people are "demonstrating the holiness of sin" which has some old tradition.
Modern Jews don't tithe because there is no God-Cursed priesthood. Food producers and distributors may give 1% of their PROFIT to the poor (only) or they can burn it since it is FOR THE LORD.
The tribe of Levi performed the services which our governments supply including keeping the peace, education and going to war. And the MAD HATTORS want you to pay the INCOME TAX also.
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 22.214.171.124 on Nov 18, 2012 6:13 PM|
That All Christians Should "Tithe": That Teaching ... Again????
|November 18 2012, 10:19 PM |
This is a manifestation of what happens when the now-"politically"-correct "shepherding" system selects its own succeeding shepherds. [Reminds me of the papal succession that the Roman Catholic Church labels as "The Apostolic Succession."] Point is that most of the "shepherds" now were not the same elders when the upheaval occurred around 2001.
"Lessons learned" were not/have not been learned lessons:
How difficult are these lessons for the "shepherds" to learn? Really!!!
- Forgetful that the "worship leader" was/is an unscriptural "church office."
- Forgetful that the "praise team" concept is not supported in Scripture; it is as man-made as instrumental music.
- Forgetful that the "praise team" implementation caused division among the elders themselves more than a decade ago.
- Forgetful that the "praise team" implementation divided the congregation more than a decade ago and resulted in hundreds of members leaving to seek fellowship somewhere else.
- Forgetful that Bruce White's teaching a decade ago on Levitical tithing would only burden the Christian.
- Forgetful that implementing instrumental music even only recently is already affecting attendance.
- ... and now NT Christians tithing for the OT priests and Levites?
Decently and in order (KJV)
|November 19 2012, 1:40 PM |
Decent--having "ingredients" in the worship that are not worshipful. Similar to the "cookies" with their "ingredients" on the stage. Hardly something that appears decent. But it's "orange"--something else to eat.
Order--the collision of Lord's Supper with baptism, where they're actually competing with one another.
|Dave Fields (Elder)|
Re: Baptism: The Saddleback Way
|November 19 2012, 8:53 AM |
Like the saying goes....if you can't beat em, join em.
Are you not qualified to be an elder?
Do you not have the willingness to serve?
CM did not want to give credit to "Anonymous," poster of the above remark. We know it when it's David Fields speaking.
|This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 126.96.36.199 on Nov 19, 2012 10:48 PM|
Dave Fields: "if you can't beat em, join em."
|November 19 2012, 11:17 PM |
1. Was that the way you became an elder at Clemson, SC -- "can't beat em, join em"?
2. Are you in favor of elders appointing elders as possible "successors"?
3. Is your approach to "the office of a bishop" culture-driven or truth-supported?
4. Do you consider "of good behavior" more important as a qualification than "apt to teach"?
Re: Dave Fields: "if you can't beat em, join em."
|November 20 2012, 11:31 AM |
C.H. Spurgeon, "The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is a knowledge of our own ignorance."
Warren Wiersbe, "Christians think they are prosecuting attorneys or judges, when, in reality, God has called all of us to be witnesses."
Vance Havner, "He who becomes a brother to the bruised, a doctor to the despairing, and a comforter to the crushed may not actually say much. What he has to offer is often beyond the power of speech to convey. But, the weary sense it, and it is a balm of Gilead to their souls."
Oswald Chambers, "The great test of a man's character is his tongue."
|Anonymous [Dave Fields]|
Re: Baptism: The Saddleback Way
|November 20 2012, 8:41 AM |
If you don't know that B is William Crump, then you don't know who anyone being anonymous is. If it is David Fields, then prove it is he. If you can't do so.....then you are untruthful.....again.
Why aren't you an elder at Madison?
This post was authored by Dave Fields.
|This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 188.8.131.52 on Nov 20, 2012 11:13 PM|
Re: Baptism: The Saddleback Way
|November 20 2012, 12:27 PM |
Dave is completely obsessed with this identity thing. Should an elder dwell on such matters? BTW, given the mean-spirited, un-Christ-like attitude that Dave manifests toward those with whom he disagrees on this site, how on earth did he become an elder at his church anyway?
"Get Over It"
|November 20 2012, 11:52 PM |
Unlike you, I have no issue with the "B" identity. That's how he wants to be addressed in response. "B" very well knows that if he were to be "Anonymous," he would be addressed as "Annie Mouse."
I think I have an alternative for you -- to address you, Anonymous, as "Annie Mouse (Dave)."
"Get over it," Dave Fields.
That's what one elder representative announced in 2002 to the Madison congregation when many members were adamantly opposed to the implementation of the "Praise Team" [a.k.a. the "Church of Christ" CHOIR] in the assembly.
The representing elder's announcement was: "Get over it ... we must move on [with our "plan" to continue to transform the church]."
Now that sounds much like the progressive, liberal agenda of the "winning" left-wingers in the national elections of 2012.
Why are you an elder of at a Clemson, SC congregation?
Re: "Get Over It"
|November 20 2012, 11:56 PM |
That's a good question. Why IS Dave an elder of his church?