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Anonymous [Fields]
(no login)

Re: Baptism: The Saddleback Way

November 20 2012, 4:34 PM 

William, how goes the early sales for the encyclopedia of Christmas?

Hey William, if this David Fields is so obsessed with this identity thing, as you claim, then why are you so obsessed with this David Fields?


This post was submitted by Dave Fields.

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Nov 20, 2012 11:15 PM

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(no login)

Re: Baptism: The Saddleback Way

November 21 2012, 1:53 PM 

I've hit a nerve...again....
If Donnie or B were elders they could do more than whine and moan about the situations that they don't like. But then have to be Scripturally qualified and have the support of the people of the church to be an elder. Well then.....somebody has to do the whining and moaning. Always will have those, like you, going against the body of Christ and Scripture. Satan doesn't want those outside of the body, he already has those. Satan is happiest when he sees those, like you, the wolves, who want to tear the church asunder from the inside out.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Baptism: The Saddleback Way

November 21 2012, 4:38 PM 

But, immortal gods, to you
All my pleasing toil is due.
Phoebus is to me a sire;
Grateful thoughts my soul inspire;
Nurtured by thy bounty here,
Thee, Apollo, I revere;

As a father's I repeat.
Son of Latona, Paean, Paean, hail!
Never, O never may thy honours fail!
-[145] Now from this labour with the laurel bough
I cease; and sprinkling from the golden vase
The chaste drops which Castalia's fountain rolls,
Bedew the pavement. Never may I quit
This office to the god; or, if I quit it,
Be it, good Fortune, at thy favouring call!

But see, the early birds have left their nests,
And this way from Parnassus wing their flight.
Come not, I charge you, near the battlements,
Nor near the golden dome. Herald of Jove,
Strong though thy beak beyond the feather'd kind,
My bow shall reach thee. Towards the altar, see,
A swan comes sailing: elsewhere wilt thou move
Thy scarlet-tinctured foot? or from my bow
[160] The lyre of Phoebus to thy notes attuned [sunoidos]
Will not protect thee; farther stretch thy wings;
Go, wanton, skim along the Delian lake,
Or wilt thou steep thy melody in blood.

Phoebus is Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon: the end-time mark of instrumental music ad the MUSES or Locusts as adulteresses. The MARK of Abaddon is:

Phorm-inx, ingos, hê,
A. lyre, freq. in Hom., esp. as the instrument of Apollo, phormingos perikalleos hên ech' Apollôn Il.1.603 , cf. 24.63, Od.17.270, Hes.Sc.203; of Achilles, phrena terpomenon phormingi ligeiêi kalêi daidaleêi Il.9.186 ; with seven strings (after Terpander's time), heptaktupos, heptaglôssos, Pi.P.2.71, N.5.24; antipsallôn elephantodeton ph. Ar.Av.219 (anap.).

2. ph. achordos, metaph. for a bow, Arist.Rh.1413a1.

Mark of the haven fallen star and the victory song of the GRACES and muses celebrating the neutering of the church.

Astêr , ho, gen. eros: dat. pl.
A. astrasi Il.22.28 ,317 (Aristarch.; astrasi Sch.Ven., Choerob.):--star (v. astron), aster' opôrinôi Il. 5.5 ; oulios a. 11.62 ; Seirios a. Hes.Op.417 ; a. Arktouros the chief star in the constellation, ib.565, etc.; shooting star or meteor,
I. metaph. of illustrious persons, etc., phanerôtaton aster' Athênas E.Hipp.1122 (lyr.); Mousaôn astera kai Charitôn

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

The bowstring touch'd her breast, so strong she drew;
Whizzing in air the fatal arrow flew.

At once the twanging bow and sounding dart
The traitor heard, and felt the point within his heart.
Him, beating with his heels in pangs of death,
His flying friends to foreign fields bequeath.

The conqu'ring damsel, with expanded wings,
The welcome message to her mistress brings.

The MOTHER has won the victory: Sorry but someone has to OUT you guys.

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(no login)

Re: The Saddleback Way

November 21 2012, 5:12 PM 

It's real easy to whine and moan on a web site. The next time an opening for an elder at Madison becomes available I will recommend Donnie Cruz be considered. I am actually surprised that God has finally posted on this web site and condemened Dave before judgment day. Don't worry Dave I think it was really B or whoever. It seems some have delusions of grandiosity.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: The Saddleback Way

November 21 2012, 5:33 PM 

Don't play dumb, Jimmy Joe, you know that Senior Ruling Elder will make the picks.

The MARK of an elder is that:

Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Titus 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Titus 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucres sake.
Titus 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Muthos 2. public speech, m. andressi melsei Od.1.358; muthoisin skoliois [The CROOKED race] Hes.Op.194
G3453 mue moo-eh'-o From the base of G3466 ; to initiate, that is, (by implication) to teach:instruct.
G3451 mousikos moo-sik-os' From Mousa (a Muse); musical, that is, (as noun) a minstrel:musician.

G3466 mustrion moos-tay'-ree-on From a derivative of mu (to shut the mouth); a secret or mystery (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites):mystery.

The Gospel of Thomas

When any person was introduced he was delivered as a victim to the priests, who led him away to a place resounding with shouts, the sound of music, and the beating of cymbals and drums, lest his cries, while suffering violation, should be heard abroad."

She then entreated and besought him to put an end to that matter in some way or other; and not to plunge himself into a situation, where he must first suffer, and afterwards commit, every thing that was abominable. Nor did she quit him until the young man gave her his promise to keep himself clear of those rites. Gnostics believed that those who passed through initiation (as in the earlier Mysteries) and achieved Gnosis, had the right to interpret the message of Jesus in their own way.

Jesus refused to Lament and Dance when the clergy PIPED wanting to test whether he was their expected Dionysus--the new wineskin thingy.

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(no login)

Re: Baptism: The Saddleback Way

November 21 2012, 6:56 PM 

If the congregants of a Clemson, SC, congregation are too gullible, too naive, and too undiscerning to recognize and cast out an unqualified "elder" and spiritual sham, who is bent on leading them away from the truth of the New Testament, then those congregants will pay the price by wallowing in spiritual oblivion.

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(no login)

Re: Baptism: The Saddleback Way

November 27 2012, 9:38 AM 

Who is Dave Fields?

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Who is Dave Fields?

November 27 2012, 11:02 PM 

Easy question, Dave Fields!!!

You're the same one who initiated this thread as "Anonymous" but to whom credit was due:

Dave Fields (no login)
from IP address

You're the same one who later STRONGLY PROTESTED:

(no login)
November 14 2012, 7:01 AM

For readers who are unaware out there, Donnie took my original message and edited it (put in items that I did not) and made it what he wanted it to be.

That isn't just untruthful, it is sinful and shows a man unsure of himself. Everything that was added to my original statement was not in blue, which makes Donnie and this site......a scam.

Again, nothing new under the sun. It is what it is.

Dave, I know you love playing this [your] game because you have difficulty presenting the truth as revealed in the New Testament. Just admit that your alignment is with those who compromise the truth and who are ashamed of the church they still claim to be members of.

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(no login)

Re: Baptism the Saddleback Way

January 19 2013, 12:10 PM 

I notice that the Swaggarts don't like Rick Warren either. They post him as a syncretist and one that accommodates even the nonChristian world. They say he takes scriptures out of context. Our brethren leave out scriptures as well.

I noticed "taking the scriptures out of context" the other Wednesday night during Bible Study. This involved a topic much discussed on this board--the importance of the teaching of the Word and its interplay with the Spirit. The teacher, upon reading

14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, 16that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, that ye may be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inward man; ASV

conveniently left out just the following verses:

Ephesians 3:17that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; to the end that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may be strong to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19and to know the love of Christ which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled unto all the fulness of God.

In fact, whenever the "Holy Spirit" was mentioned he grabbed those verses, but always left out the working through faith, love, apprehension, and knowledge, and through the individual's control of his or her own mind and thoughts. Explain the full context of the passage before jumping to other Holy Spirit passages. How does the teacher think that one can decide to be baptized without one's control of his own thought processes?

How long are our teachers going to continue to streamline the Word just for their own purposes? Read the entire passage, and don't jump to other verses without explaining all relevant thoughts from the passage. This is a "Holy Spirit" teacher who has this topic as his favorite hobby.

Instead of "boiling the frog" he "jumps like a frog" from Holy Spirit passage to Holy Spirit passage. Settle down, teacher.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Rick Warren vs. the Swaggarts: Change Agents Are Followers

January 19 2013, 2:50 PM 

Thanks for presenting your factual observations. Here's my take on what's going on in Community Church-bound church of Christ congregations especially the mega ones:

(1) The Swaggarts and Rick Warren are both competitive. It's the Charismatic Movement vs. the Community Church Movement, respectively.

(2) The sad and unfortunate part is that the change agents in control of our mega congregations are partakers of both Movements. The Charismatic performance "moves" on stage (e.g., the ladies "in pants" co-worship-leading at Madison), as well as denominational creeds acquired by the "change agents" who might as well call themselves "Church [of Christ] Transformers."

(3) The teacher's specialty, the topic of the "Holy Spirit," is not only taken out of context but is also being taught without a thorough analysis of how expressions are used in the passages.

The clause "that ye may be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inward man" deserves a very careful analysis. "His Spirit" in itself clearly indicates: (1) possession because of the pronoun "his" and (2) a proper identification of an improper noun "spirit."

The word "spirit" is an improper noun which has been defined or identified thoughout the Scriptures as: power (OT/NT), breath (OT), wind (NT), mind (Rom. 11:34; I Cor. 2:16), etc.

In the Holy Scripture, "the spirit" is usually followed by the preposition "OF": the Spirit OF the Lord; the Spirit OF God; the Spirit OF Jesus Christ; the Spirit OF the Father; etc. It follows that when "the Spirit" or "the holy Spirit" is not followed by the preposition "OF," it is still that "spirit" that BELONGS to God. The ownership of "the spirit" by the Lord God certainly DOES NOT make "the spirit OF the Lord God" the third person in the Roman Catholic-originated-and-invented Trinity Doctrine.

God's spirit BELONGS to Him. God's Spirit is NOT a separate entity or "third-person." That spirit (which is HOLY) is an entity in/of God, and it is not a separate being.

Man also has a spirit. But man's spirit does not make that entity a separate man or person.

I'll try not to elaborate further, but I'd like to point out that the change agents are acquiring this man-made doctrine that the holy Spirit OF God is a separate PERSON of God and has a direct influence [like "the Holy Spirit spoke to me"] upon the Christian, rather than God's Spirit operation or influence upon the Christian is through God's word.

The MIND of God is revealed in the Holy Scripture.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Rick Warren vs. the Swaggarts: Change Agents Are Followers

January 19 2013, 4:56 PM 

A disciple of christ could not take parts of Ephesians 3 out of context. A Christian has A holy spirit or A good conscience or consciousness which means A co-perception of the Word.

Second, John says (I think) that if you deny the Father-Son connection you are an ANTI-Christ. And it seems that anyone who depends on the Spirit or Mind of Christ to speak to them other than what Christ spoke rejects the clear statements of Jesus.

What Donnie has just said cannot be misunderstand by anyone with A holy spirit:

[linked image]

The spirit OF Christ is the Mind of Christ. Paul is preaching and writing to tell them that the MIND of Christ dwells in our "inner man" or spirit by FAITH. Faith comes by hearing the Word.

MIGHT or dunamis cannot apply to physical, rhetorical, performing force since Paul said:

1Corinthians 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

The WORD is the black text on brown paper. However the SPIRIT or FORCE is being able to understand the TEXT.

The text says that

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;

Even though they have a Phd in the LETTER almost never do they understand the SPIRIT of that statement. Otherwise we would hire a Hang Them High Minister just as when Judas grasped his folly

Again, if you deny that the MESSIAH of God came fully in the flesh then you are an ANTI-christ

The MIGHT or POWER or SPIRIT also means

III. Force or meaning of a word, Lys.10.7, Pl. Cra.394b

Lys. 10 7 For my part, gentlemen, I hold that your concern is not with mere words but with their meaning,

If you have A holy spirit or if you are A Christian or A disciple you begin at the beginning of the story line and go to the end of the story line. Otherwise you despise Christ and that means Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit OF Christ.

That IS a salvation issue because it lets people be PROFESSIONS or HUCKSTERS of the word and claim that A spirit told them to JUMP RIGHT IN THERE if you find that Christ was too SILENT on something."

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jan 19, 2013 5:01 PM

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(no login)


January 19 2013, 9:04 PM 

Paul is praying that they might have love and this is accomplished through His Spirit dwelling in them as well as Christ dwelling in them through faith. Following is a table that attempts to present what Paul is praying for.


Power through His Spirit is no more a goal than Christ dwelling in them through faith. Then end result that by their being rooted and grounded in love is to be a forerunner of comprehending the love of God, as well as knowing love of Christ. Notice that [the love of God] is not included in the original Greek, so later translations add that. Notice that Christ dwelling in them through faith is thought to be just as important as, and perhaps the same thing as, their being strengthened through the power of His spirit.

Through faith we begin to know the Love of Christ and the Greatness of God. Through the power of God's spirit we also reach the knowledge of love and the greatness of God. God's spirit is revealed in the total events occurring in the pages of the Bible.

Notice here that the love of God and Christ is an outcome. This is one of the fruits of faith in Christ as well as a fruit of the spirit.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Baptism: The Saddleback Way

January 19 2013, 10:00 PM 

Looks good to me: Paul often uses parallel statements which should prevent people from misunderstanding. The problem happens when people lift out the part they want and then ignore Paul's further definition.

That Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith could use some explaining.

The people who violate all of the information and make the Spirit of Christ into another people say:

1. Now that I have FAITH that opens up the path for the Holy Spirit person to literally live inside of me.

2. The other reading is that FAITH is the way in which the Spirit or Mind of Christ dwells in us.

Any thoughts?

[linked image]

Alexander Campbell defined A holy spirit in the same way.

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(no login)

Re: Baptism: The Saddleback Way

January 19 2013, 10:39 PM 

Just shortly,

It is remarkable that the Christ dwells through faith IN OUR HEARTS (verse 17)--this seems clearly to be cognitive or mental. Still, nevertheless, it is a real blessing.

Second, "his Spirit" is used to reference the "Father" in verse 14 (Ephesians 3). Notice that the Father's "family" is mentioned as being in heaven as on earth (verse 15). So the clear description might be the "Spirit of the Father."

Paul issues a prayer (verse 16) that the Spirit of the Father would empower them in the "inward man." Again this may be cognitive.

This is interesting, if the Spirit is given just after baptism (Acts 2:38), then why does Paul pray that the Spirit of the Father would empower them in the inward man. After all, they had already been baptized (also see Acts 19).

It is difficult to disprove that the Spirit cannot be obtained by full faith and love in Christ. Otherwise, would we not accept the tongue-speaking interpretation of Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians 14. Also, radical indwelling views can be made to support the "eternal security of believers," such as a misapplication of Romans 8. This is similar to letting radical "grace" theory to cause one to believe in universal salvation.

We can almost turn these verses around, where knowledge and love of God and Christ would bring us an indwelling Christ and Spirit of the Father. And that in turn could bring us to bow our knees to the Father.

Finally, have you heard of B.B. Baxter's saying there are four measures of the Spirit: full or without measure (Christ), baptismal measure (Pentecostal and Cornelius-ian), miraculous measure, and personal (indwelling) measure. Is anyone familiar with this?

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Baptism: The Saddleback Way

January 19 2013, 11:19 PM 

Yes, I have often heard that explanation and it may all have come from DLC. My thesis which has lots of supporters is that at baptism we receive "A" holy spirit or "A" good conscience, consciousness meaning a co-perception. Paul warns about the unconverted not being able to READ or HEAR the reading of the Old Testament.

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent SPEAKETH the words of God:
.....for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

All of the older trinitarians I have consulted understand the parable (proverb in John 16) to define the Godhead as

God the Father THINKS and INTENDS
God "breathes" out his breath or wind (the major meaning of pneuma)
The Son is the Word of God and therefore Articulates the Word.

This is how Thomas Campbell understood it before H. Leo Boles wrote.

Before the spirit or breath of God some say that the WISDOM (Sophia a daughter) existed. That's why the feminist replace Jesus with Sophia which was understood by the Greeks to be antithetical to LOGOS and the masculine-straight group.

As I hallucinate because there is no metrical Biblical text which that which we are commanded to SPEAK, the word metron is also often used in the literature to mean METER.

-Aristotle Aristot. Rh. 3.6: Melody Deceives: "Poets also make use of this in inventing words, as a melody "without strings" or "without the lyre"; for they employ epithets from negations, a course which is approved in proportional metaphors.

Commentary 3.8
And on rhythm in general, and its application to prose, there is an Appendix (C), pp. 379392; in which is a full account of its original and derived significations in the first part, and of its distinction from metron in the second.

The form of diction should be neither metrical nor without rhythm.
.....If it is metrical, it lacks persuasiveness, for it appears artificial,
.....and at the same time it distracts the hearer's attention,
.....since it sets him on the watch for the recurrence of such and such a cadence.

According to Philo,
.....the gods of the pagans exploit this weakness of men.
.....For the sake of a better effect,
.....and with the intention of more easily cheating their devotes,
.....that they have set their lies to melodies, rhythms and meters.."

The word music is a "mystery" concept and the understanding was that sacrificial music was to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter." Or to "silence the mouth of the victim (Jesus).

And sacrificial music is also called "Sacred violence." It seems strange that we (they) may be enacting the ancient sacrifice of the King until he got wise and substituted a human scapegoat until he got wise and substituted a REAL goat.

As I read and listen (rarely) to the online sermons and the list of their "titles" it seems to me that they are doing a pretty good job of throttling the Written Word of the Living Word.

The LOGOS type speak words are defined as the OPPOSITE of poetry or music.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

That Gift of Your (Man's) Spirit Made Holy

January 20 2013, 2:39 AM 

I wondered for so long about that "gift" in Acts 2:38 --

  1. What was that gift "of the Holy Ghost" [coming from the Trinity Dogma's 3rd person] to be received after baptism?
  2. Or, was the Holy Ghost [himself--the 3rd person of the Trinity Dogma] the gift to be received after baptism?
  3. And if so, why is the Father [the 1st person of the Trinity Dogma] not the gift to be received after baptism?
  4. Why is the Son [the 2nd person of the Trinity Dogma] not the gift to be received after baptism?

These are serious questions. But translations have much to do with the confusion. When translators have the predisposition that any reference to the "Holy Ghost" or "Holy Spirit" is automatically the third person in the Catholic-invented Trinity Dogma, there is a problem.

A careful examination of all the words that comprise Acts 2:38, without regard for what has been translated for us, makes it clearer when we properly define or identify the following words:

  • "gift" = noun, accusative singular feminine
  • "the" = definite article, genitive singular neuter
  • "holy" = adjective, genitive singular neuter
  • "ghost or spirit or life or mind" = improper noun, genitive singular neuter

So, Acts 2:38 shows two benefits received after repentance and baptism:

(1) the forgiveness of your sins and
(2) the gift of your spirit made holy (or pure, blameless).

So, Acts 3:19 (a parallel passage) also shows two benefits received after repentance and conversion:

(1) that your sins may be blotted out and
(2) when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Both passages, without being influenced by prejudicial, presumed or presupposed translations available, do NOT indicate that the Trinity-based third person, the "Holy Ghost of God" is the gift received after conversion.

It really makes sense that the individual who becomes a Christian (after being buried with Christ in baptism): (1) is forgiven of all his past sins in the blood of the Lamb and (2) his spirit made holy and pure, i.e., has a clear conscience and is refreshed.

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Tom Brite
(no login)

Re: That Gift of Your (Man's) Spirit Made Holy

January 20 2013, 10:12 AM 

Ken, I have become more and more convinced that your interpretation of the "Holy Spirit" is correct. I'm afraid, though, that too much time has passed, even in Churches of Christ to turn back the hands of time to this interpretation for so many.

While we have seen early resistance to the Holy Spirit as a separate entity, through such adaptations as changing the words of the song "Holy, Holy, Holy" to "blessed eternally" from the original "blessed Trinity," the resistance has become less and less over the years. Today, it is the norm to acknowledge the separate entity and rely on personal instruction and guidance from this entity in so many, even conservative congregations.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: That Gift of Your (Man's) Spirit Made Holy

January 20 2013, 1:25 PM 


You are correct regarding your observation that it is not uncommon even in conservative church of Christ congregations to believe that the "Holy Spirit" is the THIRD person in the Trinity Dogma. EVEN THOUGH/even if they still maintain that the "Holy Spirit" DOES NOT DIRECTLY operate or influence the individual Christian except through the Word of God.

There should be a keen awareness that when we APPEND "of the Lord" or "of God" or "of the Father" or "of Jesus Christ" or other scriptural expressions to the "Holy Spirit" [e.g., "the holy spirit OF God"], it should lead one to consider that such holy spirit belongs to God.

Consider this faulty Trinitarian logic:

1. The Father is God
2. The Son Jesus Christ is God
3. The "Holy Spirit OF God" [third person????] is God -- this one would not make sense.

The third point really does not add up. How can "the spirit OF the Father" [and such spirit is HOLY] become a third person in the Godhead?

There is no denial that the Spirit of God (WHICH is HOLY), is an entity just as a person's mind or heart is an entity. But God's holy spirit, an entity, belongs to Him. The spirit of the Christian is also an entity that belongs to him, but it doesn't mean that his (man's) spirit is another person apart from him.

A lot of what's happening in the church of Christ regarding the "Holy Spirit" has to do with the popularity of the Catholic-invented Trinity Doctrine. That's why I keep emphasizing "Catholic Church-invented" Trinity Doctrine to make one think and analyze how this has become.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: That Gift of Your (Man's) Spirit Made Holy

January 20 2013, 8:31 PM 

Tom: I believe that you are correct. When people are WAGED to teach the Word as it has been taught and begin to despise (blaspheme) which means that they can do absolutely nothing more than the PATTERN Christ ordained for the Church in the Wilderness and which was followed for several centuries.

1Tim. 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to [public] reading, to exhortation [comfort], to doctrine.
1Tim. 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee,
......which was given thee by prophecy, [teaching]
......with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
1Tim. 4:15 Meditate upon these things;
......give thyself wholly to them;
......that thy profiting may appear to all.

If you repudiate that then God sends strong delusions that you might believe your own lie and be damned. Lying Wonders are religious services devoted to any of the "wonders" or rhetoric, music or drama.

Q. What is the difference between a PROGRESSIVE preacher and a CONSERVATIVE preacher? A. Oh, about $50,000.00 a year.

The DELUSION has been to hire MUSICAL WORSHIP MINISTERS and fall for the Shelly folly that the only role of church is "worship" meaning to produce an exhilarating experience. I believe that is a salvation issue and it is asked "shall He find faith when He returns?" The answer is, no almost none.

Teaching MONOTHEISM can cause a lot of hurt. When I returned to my little town, Hohenwald, TN, I heard them

Wurshuping the further
Wurshuping the hully gust
Worshiping Je-Zeus (hail Zeus).

In about 1995 A wannabe elder was teaching the H.Leo Boles doctrine published by the Gospel Advocate. I made the statement that the Holy Spirit was that which belonged to God or Christ.

A friendly trouble maker wrote a short story about the battle between the Unums and Trads: I was the villian with a smile.

Well, I didn't do what I was warned about: make these people think that you are ignorant and never question anything or they will SAT you on the back pew: I did and they did. happy.gif

By about the year 2001 Madison was being led by the Holy Spirit who must have taught them how to sow massive discord with a Musical Worship Team. You have seen the chart of how they GROWED them a church.

Of course, Max Lucado and Rick Atchley and others use this as a weapon. Whether they believe it or not when you have a position of domnination (pulpit) and tell people that "a spirit" told them to do something known to sow discord and blasphemy the Holy Spirit OF Christ that becomes a psychological threat that most people will not question.

While the false view of a trinity of PEOPLE has been common, it was only with the Charismatic revival of snake handlers and poison drinkers that "scholars" began to see that as a money making tool. They have their reward.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jan 20, 2013 9:25 PM

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Gift of the Holy Spirit

January 20 2013, 10:29 AM 

A more reasonable approach to the Holy Spirit that does not tamper with the Word. JMHO


What Is the Gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38?

By Wayne Jackson

To a multitude assembled on the day of Pentecost the apostle Peter declared:

Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38, ASV).

The identity of the gift of the Holy Spirit, as that expression is used in Acts 2:38, has long been a matter of interesting discussion among Christians. Good and respected brothers hold differing viewpoints as to the meaning of the terminology employed in this passage.

Aside from the radical notion that this verse asserts the perpetuity of miraculous gifts throughout the Christian age an allegation that would conflict with information elsewhere in the New Testament (cf. 1 Cor. 13:8ff; Eph. 4:8ff) there is room for honest disagreement among the Lords people on this matter, without there being a breach of fellowship.

At the outset, I would like to briefly discuss several concepts that brethren entertain regarding this matter, that I personally believe to be incorrect.


Some argue that the gift of the Holy Spirit mentioned in this passage is a reference to salvation from past sins. But this theory appears to gloss the very language of the verse. It seems very clear to this writer that the gift of the Holy Spirit is something different from and in consequence of the reception of the forgiveness of sins.

Note the dual use of the conjunction and in this context:

Repent ye, and be baptized unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If baptism is different from repentance, should not a similar recognition be given to the distinction between salvation and the gift of the Holy Spirit?

Moreover, other passages also suggest that the reception of the Holy Spirit is a blessing given in consequence of salvation.

And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father (Gal. 4:6).

Miraculous Gifts

Some contend that the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 was the reception of supernatural signs, as bestowed by the apostles hands. If such a view is correct, it would seem that a reasonable approach to the passage would suggest that all who were baptized that day (cf. 2:41) received not only forgiveness of sins, but also supernatural gifts, so that literally hundreds of disciples were performing miracles subsequently in the city of Jerusalem.

This view, however, suffers from the lack of any supporting evidence in the book of Acts. There is absolutely no indication, from Acts 2 through chapter 5, that anyone other than the apostles possessed miraculous gifts. Note the following:

and fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles (Acts 2:43).

The miracle performed by Peter and John in Acts 3 seems to have been an unusual event; the Jewish leaders commented:

for that indeed a notable miracle hath been wrought through them, is manifest to all that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it (Acts 4:16).

There is no hint that multitudes of Christians were duplicating such signs in the city. Again:

And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people, and they were all with one accord in Solomons porch. But of the rest durst no man join himself to them; howbeit the people magnified them (Acts 5:12-13).

The religious awe with which the multitudes held the apostles suggests they were doing signs not characteristic of the saints generally.

It is only when one comes to Acts 6:6ff that mention is made of the imposition of the apostles hands, and the subsequent exercise of miraculous gifts by others (cf. Acts 6:8).

It has been suggested that the terms gift (dorea) and the verb receive (lambano) in Acts 2:38 indicate a miraculous phenomenon, and thus in this context denote the supernatural gifts made available through the laying on of the apostles hands.

That such is not a valid observation can be verified easily by the consultation of a Greek concordance. Compare, for example, dorea in John 4:10 and Romans 5:15,17, and lambano in John 12:48 and Mark 10:30.

Moreover, the fact is, the most common Greek term for those gifts conveyed by the imposition of apostolic hands is the word charisma (cf. Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 12:4,9,28,30,31; 1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6).

It is alleged that Acts 2:38 is parallel with Mark 16:16ff, in that both sections promise salvation and the reception of signs. I personally do not believe that the passages are grammatically or contextually parallel in all respects. Mark 16:16ff contains a general declaration that miraculous gifts would accompany the body of believers, confirming their divinely given testimony.

On the other hand, the persons directly addressed in Acts 2:38 individually were promised both remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. It does not seem reasonable that they would have understood the promise to have been unlimited with reference to forgiveness, but limited in regard to the gift of the Spirit.

The Word Only

Other good brethren hold that the gift of the Holy Spirit is merely a metaphorical expression suggesting that only the Spirits influence, by means of the inspired Word, indwells the Christian. In my opinion, this concept does not adequately explain all of the biblical data on this theme.

A frequent line of argument in support of this position is to assemble two lists of passages that show common effects produced by both the Spirit and the Word. This is, however, the fallacy of analogy. (Compare the typical Oneness Pentecostal argument whereby lists of similar traits relative to the Father and the Son are assembled in an attempt to prove that the two are the same Person.)

The fact that the Holy Spirit uses the Word as his instrument of instruction (Eph. 6:17), does not speak to the issue of whether or not he indwells the child of God.

The Word only view seems to fall under the weight of the context of Acts 2 as a whole. For example, in Acts 2:41 Luke records:

They then that received his word were baptized

Peters auditors on the day of Pentecost gladly received his word (v. 41), hence, the influence of the Spirit through that word, before their baptism. This is evidenced by their question, What shall we do? (v. 37), as well as an implied penitent disposition.

Yet the promised gift of the Spirit was given after baptism. Since the Spirit operated on the Pentecostians through the Word prior to their baptism, just what did they receive as a gift after their baptism?

The Indwelling Spirit

It is my conviction, as well as that of numerous highly esteemed brethren, that the Holy Spirit, as a gift, is bestowed upon the obedient believer (Acts 2:38; 5:32; 1 Cor. 6:19), and is an abiding presence in his life.

Let us consider several facets of this matter.

According to Acts 2:38, the baptized believer is promised the gift of the Holy Spirit. Is this a gift consisting of the Spirit, or a gift given by the Spirit?

Actually, from a strictly grammatical viewpoint, it could be either. Some, though, have suggested that grammatically the phrase cannot refer to the Spirit as a gift. That simply is not correct.

The expression tou hagiou pneumatos in Greek is in the genitive case. Greek grammar books list more than a dozen uses for the genitive1. It is context, either in its narrower or broader sense, that will determine the thrust of the genitive case in a given circumstance.

The fact of the matter is, almost every Greek authority known to this writer contends that the genitive of Acts 2:38 is epexegetical (appositional), i.e., the Holy Spirit is the gift2. These sources are not cited as theological experts, but as language authorities; the authors obviously did not feel that it is grammatically impossible for the gift to consist of the Spirit himself, as some have alleged.

That the gift of the Holy Spirit can be the Spirit himself is demonstrated by a comparison of Acts 10:45 with 10:47, even though the respective contexts reveal that different endowments of the Spirit are under consideration in Acts 2 and 10.

It is probably safe to say that most of the scholars within the restoration heritage have also argued this interpretation of the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38, even when differing on the nature of receiving the Spirit.

J.W. McGarvey3 wrote:

The expression means the Holy Spirit as a gift, and the reference is to that indwelling of the Holy Spirit by which we bring forth the fruits of the Spirit, and without which we are not of Christ.

Moses Lard4 commented: Certainly the gift of the Spirit is the Spirit itself given.

For further reference we would suggest consulting Goebel Musics massive work, A Resource and Reference Volume on the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit5. This is a study that no serious New Testament student can afford to ignore on this topic.

Supporting Evidence

The most forceful argument for this view that the gift of the Spirit is the Spirit himself, is the subsequent testimony of the New Testament regarding the reception of the Holy Spirit by the believer. Note the following.

The Holy Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit

Within the Roman letter, in a context which discusses the indwelling Spirit as a possession of the saints (cf. Rom. 8:9,11,16,26,27), the apostle Paul declares that the Holy Spirit and the human spirit bear dual witness to the fact that we are children of God (v. 16).

Does our spirit actually dwell within us?

Some would suggest that only the Holy Spirits influence through the Word is here considered. Notice, though, it is the indwelling Spirit himself who bears testimony with us (see also 8:26).

Compare the language of John 4:2 where it is stated that while the Lord representatively baptized disciples, he himself baptized not. There is a difference between what one does himself and what he accomplishes through an agent

Our body, the temple of the Holy Spirit

Paul inquired of the Corinthian saints:

Or know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own; for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body (1 Cor. 6:19).

The Greek word for temple is naos, and it is an allusion to that holy sanctuary of the Mosaic economy wherein God actually made his presence known (cf. Ex. 25:22).

Here is an interesting question. If the Holy Spirit bears a relationship to men today only through the Word, and yet, admittedly, he influences the alien sinner through the Word, would it be proper to suggest that the sinners body is the temple of the Holy Spirit to whatever extent he is affected by the Word?

Christians made to drink of one Spirit

Consider 1 Corinthians 12:13.

For in one Spirit [i.e., the Spirits operation by means of the gospel] were we all baptized into one body and [an additional thought] were all made to drink of one Spirit.

What is the difference in the Spirits relationship to us before baptism and after baptism? In Pauls dual references to the Spirit in this passage, is he suggesting the identical concept in both statements?

The Holy Spirit sent into our hearts

In Galatians 4:6, the Spirit is said to be sent into our hearts because we are (i.e., in consequence of being) sons of God. Would not this suggest a relationship that is different from the mere influence of the Word, since the sinner has the leading of the Word before he becomes a child of God?

The earnest of the Spirit promised to Christians only

If the relationship of the Holy Spirit is exactly the same to both sinner and saint (i.e., only through the Word), can it be affirmed that the sinner, to whatever extent that he is influenced by the Word, has the earnest of the Spirit (2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; cf. Eph. 1:13,14)? Do not these passages, and those above, set forth a precious promise that is exclusively confined to the Christian?

Points to Consider

Sincere respected brethren believe that there are strong arguments that negate the idea that the Spirit personally indwells the child of God. We will consider several of these.

Is the Spirit divided?

It is argued that if the Holy Spirit actually dwelt in all Christians, he would be divided. If we may kindly say so, this constitutes a rather materialistic view of deity.

The fact of the matter is, the apostles of Christ were filled with the Spirit of God (Acts 2:4), and yet, the Spirit was still one (cf. 1 Cor. 12:9).

It is countered, though, that the Holy Spirit did not actually dwell in the apostles. Rather, it is alleged, the Spirit was only with them in the sense that they were miraculously endowed with divine power.

However, it must be noted that the apostles had the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit before the day of Pentecost (cf. Mt 10:8; 12:28). This is obviously what the Lord had in mind when he affirmed that the Spirit was with (para) those disciples; yet additionally, the Savior promised, he shall be in (en) you (Jn. 14:17).

In view of this passage, how can it possibly be argued that the Holy Spirit cannot be in a person?

Would the indwelling of the Spirit make one deity?

It has been suggested that if the Holy Spirit actually dwelt in someone that would be a form of incarnation, hence, the person would be deity. This is an erroneous assumption. The Spirit was in the apostles (Acts 2:4), but they were not deity. Peter refused to be worshipped as though he was a divine being (Acts 10:26).

In an incarnation, deity becomes flesh (cf. Jn. 1:14), but such is not the case when the Spirit simply indwells the believers body. When God called to Moses out of the midst of a bush (Ex. 3:4), that did not imply that the bush was divine.

Does the indwelling Spirit demand miraculous powers?

Others would contend that if the Holy Spirit personally dwells in the Christian then he would be able to perform miracles. The connection is unwarranted. John the Baptist performed no miracles (Jn. 10:41), and yet he was filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mothers womb (Lk. 1:15).

Incidentally, the preposition from in this passage is the Greek term ek meaning from the inside to the outside, thus suggesting that John was filled with the Spirit even while in his mothers womb. This certainly excludes the notion that the Holy Spirit can dwell in one only through the agency of the Word.

What about the Samaritans?

It is further argued that even though the Samaritans had been baptized (Acts 8:12), they had not received the Holy Spirit (8:16), hence, there is no indwelling of the Spirit at the point of baptism.

This assertion, however, overlooks a very important phrase in verse 16. The text states:

for as yet it was fallen upon none of them: only they had been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

Why did not the sentence conclude with the words, as yet it was fallen upon none of them if absolutely no reception of the Spirit was being affirmed? Certainly such would have been sufficient to complete that thought.

Rather, a qualifying clause is added: only (monon de literally, but only) they had been baptized Thus, the sense likely is: for as yet it had fallen upon none of them: but only (in the manner bestowed when) they had been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

This compares well with the promise of the Spirit at the time of ones baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38).

Concerning Acts 8:16, McGarvey6 notes:

previous to the arrival of Peter and John the Holy Spirit had fallen with its miraculous powers on none of the Samaritans.

God and Christ indwelling the Christian

It is contended that both God and Christ are said to dwell in us, though they do not actually inhabit our bodies. So, similarly, is the case with the Spirit.

However, we are expressly told that God dwells in us by means of the Spirit. Paul says the Ephesians were a habitation of God in the Spirit (Eph. 2:22), and John affirms, we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he gave us (1 Jn. 3:24; cf. 4:13).

Benefits of the Spirits Indwelling

There are residual benefits to acknowledging the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Christian. Let us consider a couple of these.

The Confident Life

Every child of God is painfully aware of his inability to live perfectly before his Creator (cf. Rom. 7:14ff). Frequently, we have deep spiritual needs of which we are not even aware. We ought not to despair, however, for:

the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought, but the SpirIt himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered (Rom. 8:26).

There are several important truths affirmed in this passage:
We have needs which we do not adequately know how to address.
In this regard, the Spirit continually helps us (literally, constantly bears the load with us).
This assistance he himself (personally) provides.
He takes our unutterable groanings and, by his ongoing intercessory activity, conveys our needs to the Father.
God, who searches the hearts (where the Spirit abides Gal. 4:6), perceives the mind of the Spirit and responds to our needs consistent with his own will (cf. Rom. 8:27).

What a thrilling concept of the Spirits activity in our lives. Moses Lard has a wonderful discussion on this passage in his Commentary on Romans7.


The Greek world into which Christianity was born tended to deprecate the human body. There was a proverbial saying, The body is a tomb. Epictetus said, I am a poor soul shackled to a corpse.

That concept accommodated a fleshly mode of living. Since only the soul was important, and not the body, one could give himself wantonly to the indulgences of the flesh.

It is this factor that certainly lies behind Pauls rebuke of carnal indulgence in the church at Corinth. The body is not to be given over to fornication (1 Cor. 6:13ff). One of the apostles effective arguments for the sanctity of the Christians body is that the Holy Spirit indwells that body as the temple of God, hence, those saints were to glorify the Father in their bodies (1 Cor. 6:19-20).

We are confident that an awareness of the Spirits abiding presence can be a powerful motivation to godly living. J.D. Thomas8 has noted that the doctrine

of the personal indwelling of the Spirit and a strong providential activity aids our own spiritual development towards its highest potential. Though the age of miracles is over, spiritual relationships and spiritual activities are not over! The awareness that the third member of the Godhead personally and actually dwells within us is a tremendous incentive to holiness.


In affirming that the Holy SpirIt dwells within the child of God, one need not suggest
that miracles are performed today,
that the Spirit guides or illuminates us in some way apart
from the Scriptures,
that he operates directly upon the saints heart.

The fact of the Spirits indwelling is a different issue altogether from the various modes of his operation as such were effected in the apostolic age.

A word of caution would appear to be in order as to the manner in which this controversy is addressed in our speaking and writing. Though most Christians acknowledge that this particular issue is not a matter of fellowship, some, when addressing viewpoints that differ from their own, do so in a very condescending and caustic fashion. We do not believe that such a disposition is in the interest of candid investigation. Let us approach subjects of this type with a spirit of mutual respect and kindly accord.

1 J. Harold Greenlee, A Concise Exegetical Grammar of New Testament Greek, Eerdmans, 1963, pp. 28-31.

2 Cf. the lexicons of: Arndt & Gingrich, 209; Thayer, 161; Robinson, 196; also the works of Kittel, II, 167; Vine, 147; Robertson, Word Pictures, III, 36; Moulton, Howard, Turner, Grammar, III, 214; Expositors Greek Testament II, 91.

3 McGarvey, J.W., New Commentary on Acts, I, p. 39.

4 Lards Quarterly, II, p. 104; cf. also Lipscomb and Sewell, Questions Answered, p. 318.

5 Colleyville, TX: Gobel Music Publications, 2000.

6 Ibid. p. 142, emphasis added.

7 pp. 276-278.

8 The Spirit and Spirituallty, Biblical Research Press, 1962, p. 52.

About the Author

Wayne Jackson has written for and edited the Christian Courier since its inception in 1965. He has also written several books on a variety of biblical topics including The Bible and Science, Creation, Evolution, and the Age of the Earth, The Bible on Trial, and a number of commentaries. He lives in Stockton, California with his dear wife, and life-long partner, Betty.


A New Testament Commentary
by Wayne Jackson

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