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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.16.205

Re: Gift of the Holy Spirit

January 20 2013, 5:17 PM 

Yes, he just HEAPS up isolated statements but doesn't read beyond finding what it is he intends to find.

J.W. McGarvey3 wrote:
The expression means the Holy Spirit as a gift, and the reference is to that indwelling of the Holy Spirit by which we bring forth the fruits of the Spirit, and without which we are not of Christ.


The REAL McGarvey told you the REST of the story: He did not identify the Spirit OF Christ as another PEOPLE.

http://www.piney.com/HsMcGarvey.Indwelling.html

In this language the apostle treats the possession of the Spirit OF Christ as the equivalent of having the Spirit OF God dwelling in us, and he denies that any one in whom this Spirit dwells not, is a Christian.

In like manner I find, by revelation and experience, that the chief medium through which the Spirit that dwells in my body produces its fruit, is the WORD of GOD; but the method by which the Spirit's power is brought to bear through this medium is as inscrutable as the Holy Spirit himself.

I can, and do, believe the fact, but I cannot know the process. I know, also, that in order to this fruit-bearing,
I must coƶperate with the Holy Spirit
by an active exertion of my own will in the direction of love, joy, peace, etc.,
and that when I enjoy these blessed frames of mind,
I am enjoying them in fellowship with the Holy Spirit.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.16.205

A holy spirit will NOT let you ignore the context of God or Man

January 20 2013, 5:36 PM 

The Witness of the Holy Spirit by J.W.M'Garvey

http://www.piney.com/HsMcGarvey.html

McGarvey:
Lest some one should doubt whether it is scriptural

to represent the statements of the Scripturesas the testimony of the Spirit, listen to a few examples of Scripture usage.

Nehemiah, in the prayer of the Levites, uses this language in reference to God's dealings with the children of Israel: "Yet many years didst thou forbear them, and testifedst against them by thy Spirit in thy prophets."

Yet many years didst thou forbear them, and testifiedst against them by thy spirit in thy prophets: yet would they not give ear: therefore gavest thou them into the hand of the people of the lands. Neh 9:30

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Re 19:10

Peter says the old prophets searched "what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."


The New Testament

Peter says the old prophets searched "what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1 Peter 1:11

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 1 Pet 1:21

Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, Heb.10:15

Therefore, the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost!

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation 19:10

1 Corinthians 2: the Holy Spirit is the Mind of God or the Mind of Christ. And Jesus said:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63


McGarvey:

And, still more to the point, in the tenth of Hebrews, Paul, after stating that "by one offering Christ has perfected forever them that are sanctified," says:

"Of this the Holy Spirit is a witness to us;"
and immediately quotes a passage from the 31st chapter of Jeremiah as the Spirit's testimony


Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer. 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb. 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb. 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

The whole matter of the Spirit's testimony resolves itself into this:

that the Holy Spirit, through the Scriptures, testifies that men who pass through certain changes, and maintain, afterward, a certain character, are children of God.

Whatever may be men's theories of spiritual influence,
you will find no believer in the inspiration of the Scriptures who will deny that the Spirit does thus testify,
or who will affirm that he communicates ideas on this subject in any other way.

And when you come to the details of the testimony itself--whatever may be men's theories of conversion--you will find few to deny that the man who believes with all his heart in the Lord Jesus Christ, who really repents of his sins, and who is really baptized, becomes a child of God.

 
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Scripture
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74.240.210.238

Holy Spirit

January 20 2013, 6:24 PM 

These were interesting quotes from McGarvey, Wayne Jackson, et al. It would be better to start from scratch than rehatch all these old writings.

I'm thinking it's like having your cake and eating it too: the Holy Spirit indwells but we don't know anything that it does, since it's nonmiraculous, according the the "personal indwelling, nonmiraculous Holy Spirit" theory (B.B. Baxter's view).

Then why say that we have it. If it is effectual at all, it would keep us from stumbling.

If we have free will, then we can get rid of it.

This proves the importance of will and faith: we can wish it in, and we can wish it out. Have faith and it will come in, lose faith and it will go out.


 
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Scripture
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74.240.210.238

Holy Spirit

January 20 2013, 6:33 PM 

These were interesting quotes from McGarvey, Wayne Jackson, et al. It would be better to start from scratch than rehatch all these old writings.

I'm thinking it's like having your cake and eating it too: the Holy Spirit indwells but we don't know anything that it does, since it's nonmiraculous, according the the "personal indwelling, nonmiraculous Holy Spirit" theory (B.B. Baxter's view).

Then why say that we have it. If it is effectual at all, it would keep us from stumbling.

If we have free will, then we can get rid of it.

This proves the importance of will and faith: we can wish it in, and we can wish it out. Have faith and it will come in, lose faith and it will go out.


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.16.205

Re: Holy Spirit

January 20 2013, 7:07 PM 

It is easy to take into account that what a writer says often depends on the direction from which he comes: John Calvin-whom no one understands-can do a good job of Free Will at times. For the most part, it is a life of word to separate whether it is Calvin speaking or his enemies. The same is true of Moses Lard or any other writer. When he says that the holy spirit dwells in us he notes that this is the same as Christ dwelling in us: the Spirit OF Christ is too easily seen as a person. The Spirit OF Christ is the Spirit OF God is Christ dwelling in us CONDITIONED on our keeping His commandments.

When false teachers say that the Holy Spirit is guiding them the most often intend to impose something NOT included in the Work Product of the Holy Spirit of Christ. Because the Spirit is that "breath" which connects God to Jesus, this mutual indwelling does not include a third person.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


It is obvious that IN does not mean INSIDE OF since God is in us and we are in God.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Fathers which sent me.


Moses Lard on Instrumental Music

There is one prominent feature, one especially distinctive and striking peculiarity, in the religion of Jesus Christ, which is its excellence and glory. In the eyes of philosophy this may be its defect and shame. This peculiarity or distinctive feature is its stereo-typed character. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a stereo-typed religion. It was completed by the Holy Spirit speaking and writing by the inspired apostles, and during their lifetime.

Since their death no man has spoken by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. As the inspired men left the gospel, so the Holy Spirit left it, and so must it ever remain until God shall change, alter, or modify it. It is the same to-day that it was in the days of the apostles; and it is but the dictate of common sense that man can not retouch it, embellish, or modify it in the least important particular. The apostle Jude affirms as much. He exhorts that we are to "contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints." The words "once delivered" point to a certain and particular time when this faith was delivered to the saints. This time was the apostolic age. By "the faith" he means the gospel of Jesus Christ, called also by him "the common salvation."


Load an Lard's article "Instrumental Music and Dancing" from the March 1864 Quarterly.

When Rick Atchley etal says that "a spirit" told them that God's abandonment to worship the starry host [instrumental] has NO ONE to say that it was a HOLY SPIRIT.






    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.193.16.205 on Jan 20, 2013 8:35 PM


 
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B
(no login)
74.240.239.241

Re: Gift of the Holy Spirit

January 20 2013, 6:59 PM 

And so the wondering and pondering goes on and on about who or what comprises the Holy Spirit. Some folks firmly believe the Holy Spirit is a divine entity distinct and separate from God/Jesus. Others firmly believe that the Holy Spirit is not a separate entity but is the Spirit of God/Jesus. And still others firmly believe that the Holy Spirit is each person's personal spirit (soul) that is made holy when s/he becomes a Christian according to the requirements set forth in the New Testament.

Now since the Bible mentions "Holy Spirit" or "Holy Ghost" but does not actually give a firm definition of who or what that is (hence the endless controversy), then man need not worry too much about trying to "reason it all out." When man begins to say the Holy Spirit is this or that, but not that or this, then he merely states his personal opinion, which does nothing to clarify the matter. One might as well ask, "When did God come into being? How large is heaven? What does God look like? How many angels does God have in heaven? When will the world end?" Man has asked those and many other similar questions throughout the millennia, yet those questions have no definitive answers according to the Scriptures. Similarly, the Scriptures do not definitively tell us who or what comprises the Holy Spirit, even though it is perhaps thought-provoking to wonder about it. However, fixating on or engaging in endless debates about the subject is, frankly, a waste of time.

Suffice it to know that the Holy Spirit IS.

 
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Scripture
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74.240.210.238

B ignites

January 20 2013, 9:18 PM 

"B" not only suggests that the issue of the Holy Spirit ignites, but "B" himself ignites.

"B" has now made everybody mad, because he refuses to take a stand! "B", you're either brave or spoiling.

happy.gif

 
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B
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98.87.23.171

B's Practical Advice

January 20 2013, 10:26 PM 

If you want to "take a certain stand" about the Holy Spirit, then go for it, but it is absolutely foolish and futile to argue and debate a topic like this when there is NO Scriptural resolution available, only conjecture and personal opinions. The "anger" comes when somebody who values his opinion all too highly cannot get others to agree with him. Of course, you might see if one of those other allegedly uninspired books outside the 66 gives any definitive insight into the Holy Spirit. happy.gif

Seriously, though, if you want to debate this until Doom's Day, be my guest, but my advice is that you find something better to do with your time.

 
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Scripture
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74.240.210.238

B's Practical Advice

January 20 2013, 11:17 PM 

B, how would you feel if someone were to tell you that the Holy Spirit told them not to do something? Or to do something?

I've heard this a lot of TV.

Really, this is a pratical topic.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.204.227

Re: B's Practical Advice

January 21 2013, 12:53 AM 

If that's what they believed, and since I couldn't prove or disprove it, I certainly wouldn't debate them over it. Debating about the Holy Spirit is not practical; it's more practical to accept that the Holy Spirit IS and find something else better to do. happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.16.205

Re: B's Practical Advice

January 20 2013, 11:38 PM 

Of course, you might see if one of those other allegedly uninspired books outside the 66 gives any definitive insight into the Holy Spirit.

So, God spoke about a Holy (Wholly, sanctified) Spirit and WE cannot understand it? Well, I think I can.

Those uninspired books is the ONLY way that we can translate the Bible--unless you have a 2,000 year old dictionary.

Spirit can be used of demons or departed souls: the KJV picked up the Holy Ghost from them. Spirit literally means ONLY wind. In a figurative sense it means BREATH which transmits our MIND in WORDS.

in those uninspired books SPIRIT is almost the same as MIND.

Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit [breath] of your Father which speaketh in you.

A person does not produce WORDS: Breath does.

Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

As the word DEFINED in clear words, in this case spirit is the MENTAL DISPOSITION of your mind.

[linked image]


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.16.205

Re: Baptism: The Saddleback Way

January 20 2013, 7:52 PM 

Don't give up too easily. Spirit means ONLY wind in Hebrew and Greek. It is used figuratively of BREATH. The Spirit OF God is God's BREATH or inspiration.

Since no man can hear the voice of God, Jesus Christ was made to be his WORD: the double-edged sword means LIPS. Therefore, Jesus of Nazareth was made to be both Lord and Christ and God's audible WORD.

In 1 Corinthians 2 Paul drew a parallel

The Holy Spirit
...Is to God
What our spirit
...Is to us.

Then Paul said "but WE have the Mind of Christ." The Spirit is parallel to the Mind in the Greek literature.

Letter is the words written on paper
Spirit is the meaning of those word.
Jesus said that truth had been hidden from the clergy from the foundation of the world so that they CAN NOT understand what they read and use to extort money.

For instance, if one is interested in the MEANING of the Words of J.W.McGarvey or Moses Lard they will not--can not--go slinking through their WHOLE STORY looking for an isolated statement. Believe it or not, historical scholars always believed that if they read a short statement in the Bible then that BECAME inspired to them.

[linked image]

TEST QUESTION: Who is the Holy Spirit personified?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.16.205

Re: Baptism: The Saddleback Way

January 20 2013, 7:55 PM 

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.16.205

Re: Baptism: The Saddleback Way

January 20 2013, 9:33 PM 

The Word Only

Other good brethren hold that the gift of the Holy Spirit is merely a metaphorical expression suggesting that only the Spirits influence, by means of the inspired Word, indwells the Christian. In my opinion, this concept does not adequately explain all of the biblical data on this theme.

A frequent line of argument in support of this position is to assemble two lists of passages that show common effects produced by both the Spirit and the Word. This is, however, the fallacy of analogy. (Compare the typical Oneness Pentecostal argument whereby lists of similar traits relative to the Father and the Son are assembled in an attempt to prove that the two are the same Person.)

The fact that the Holy Spirit uses the Word as his instrument of instruction (Eph. 6:17), does not speak to the issue of whether or not he indwells the child of God.

The Word only view seems to fall under the weight of the context of Acts 2 as a whole. For example, in Acts 2:41 Luke records:
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

If the Holy Spirit person (PEOPLE) has to wield the SWORD then only those HE PICKED OUT could give heed to HIS WORD.

The Word of Christ IS the Spiritual Sword in contrast to WRESTLING with musical instruments. YOU must take the sword which The Spirit of Christ provided and defined in Isaiah 59 as Christ defined the future ekklesia both INCLUSIVELY AND EXCLUSIVELY.

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, [YOU]be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Ephesians 6:11 [YOU]Put on the whole armour of God,
....that [YE] may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
....but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
....against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto [YOU] the whole armour of God,
....that [YE] may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Ephesians 6:14 [YOU]Stand therefore, having [YOUR] loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Ephesians 6:15 And [YOUR] feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Ephesians 6:16 Above all, [YOU] taking the shield of faith, wherewith [YE] shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Ephesians 6:17 And [YOU] take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


Just as Christ PREDESTINATED in Isaiah 59 after FORBIDDING anyone to SPEAK their own words "as we tarry with Him for one hour."

Isa 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord;
....My spirit that is upon thee,
....and my words which I have put in thy mouth,
....shall not depart out of thy mouth,
....nor out of the mouth of thy seed,
....nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed,
....saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.


Denying that God is SILENT is therefore defined as blaspheming the Holy Spirit of Christ In the prophets. Christianity is a PROPHETIC discipline. Yours is undoubtedly a PRIESTLY religion which intends and does 'make the lambs dumb before the slaughter.

God knew that NO MAN hears the word of God but the SON. To keep you from blaspheming the elders were commanded to "Teach that which HAS BEEN taught and reprove (remove) those who OPPOSE that which is written for our learning.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.193.16.205 on Jan 20, 2013 9:39 PM


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

That Gift of Your Unholy Spirit Made Holy (Acts 2:38)

January 20 2013, 11:08 PM 

B (above) has very well summarized what has been discussed in this thread (as well as at other times on this forum). I have itemized (for easier reading) that summary below:

And so the wondering and pondering goes on and on about who or what comprises the Holy Spirit.

  • [1.] Some folks firmly believe the Holy Spirit is a divine entity distinct and separate from God/Jesus.
  • [2.] Others firmly believe that the Holy Spirit is not a separate entity but is the Spirit of God/Jesus.
  • [3.] And still others firmly believe that the Holy Spirit is each person's personal spirit (soul) that is made holy when s/he becomes a Christian according to the requirements set forth in the New Testament.

I would like to revise the 3rd statement somewhat to clarify what that belief is. Capitalizing the "Holy Spirit" in that statement is somewhat misleading as that would seem to indicate an entity that can be easily misconstrued as a "being" in man.

The third item is best stated as follows: "And still others firmly believe that [in Acts 2:38] one's spirit is made holy when he becomes a Christian, thus "a holy spirit." That would eliminate the question of either: (1) the uncertainty of what that gift of the "Holy Ghost" is or (2) the uncertainty that the "Holy Ghost" is that gift.

In this latest discourse, we haven't really dealt with other passages except ones that were quoted in Wayne Jackson's commentary, etc. We have only specifically dealt with Acts 2:38.

So, let's discuss Acts 2:38 a bit more because this thread is about "baptism." There are two events in the conversion process in that passage, joined by the conjunction "and":

(1) Repentance and
(2) Baptism


There are also two benefits (also events) in that passage, joined by the conjunction "and":

(1) Forgiveness of sins and
(2) Receiving a gift of ... [this is the controversy]


The receiving of the gift [what, which, who] is the point of controversy. But consider the following:

  • "Gift" is an improper noun, feminine.
  • "Ghost/Spirit" is an improper noun, neuter.
  • "Holy" is an adjective that describes "spirit," neuter.
  • "Holy ghost/spirit" is not a proper name.
  • WHY "the gift of the Holy Ghost" (God, 3rd person in "Trinity Dogma")?
  • But WHY NOT "the gift of the Father" (God, 1st person in "Trinity Dogma")?
  • But WHY NOT "the gift of the Son" (God, 2nd person in "Trinity Dogma") as the gift?
  • What have the translations done to your "independent" thought process?
There's no parallelism or consistency between "forgiveness of sins" and "gift of a God-being." But there is consistency between "forgiveness of sins" and "man's unholy spirit made holy" after conversion.

Acts 3:19 is a great parallel passage that also lists the same events in conversion where it says:

(1) Repent and
(2) Be converted


... with the following two benefits:

(1) That your sins may be blotted out
(2) When the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.


It follows that the gift spoken of in both Acts 2:38 and Acts 3:19 is NOT the reception of the "Holy Ghost of God" [the 3rd person and considered "God" in the Catholic- and Nicene Creed-invented "Trinity Doctrine"]. Rather, the gift is that of being purified, man's spirit made holy, being refreshed, having a clear conscience.

[Just a side note: The words "ghost" and "spirit" are used interchangeably in Scripture, and so are the expressions "holy ghost" and "holy spirit." Trinitarians or Trinity proponents are YET to get accumstomed to identifying "the Holy Spirit OF God" as also "the Holy Ghost OF God." Would the Trinitarians ever get accustomed to making this statement: that "the Holy Ghost OF God" (God's holy GHOST) is a separate being/the 3rd PERSON of the Trinity?]

 
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Scripture
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74.240.210.238

Holy Spirit told him not to take a job

January 20 2013, 11:23 PM 

Jimmy Swaggart said the Holy Spirit told him not to take a lucrative job?

Wouldn't our view of the Holy Spirit help us to analyze this type of decision.

Wouldn't it ultimately be a question or either rationality or the Scripture? But I don't think that's what Jimmy Swaggart has in mind.

That's why I don't think we should write off this discusssion.

If anyone is tiring of it, they can just quit discussing it, but I think the discussion has some merit.

We also have the issue of speaking in tongues, and so forth.

 
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B
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74.179.204.227

Re: Holy Spirit told him not to take a job

January 21 2013, 12:11 AM 

You don't have to "write off" the discussion. There are plenty of topics that people debate and argue about year in and year out, despite the fact that nothing is ever accomplished, resolved, or finalized. The Holy Spirit just happens to be one of those topics. When people expend energy discussing who or what the Holy Spirit is, they show they have lots of time on their hands. They assert their opinions and try to get others to side with them. Now if exercises in futility truly give you pleasure, then who are we to deprive you? By all means, proceed. happy.gif

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Holy Spirit told him not to take a job

January 21 2013, 2:07 AM 

Maybe we need to redirect our discussion from the subject of "the Holy Spirit" to the subject of God's salvation requirements or instrumental music. The "Spirit" discussion may be endless and futile since it's not likely that we will ever agree (i.e., according to "B"). Since there may be "hope" and the possibility that we will at some point agree on instrumental music, we continue to discuss such a subject matter. happy.gif

 
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Scripture
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98.87.38.246

Re: Holy Spirit told him not to take a job

January 21 2013, 8:58 AM 

Good suggestion to leave this topic. We wouldn't want anyone to have a breakdown.

 
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B
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74.179.248.227

Re: Holy Spirit told him not to take a job

January 21 2013, 10:19 PM 

Scripture said discussing the Holy Spirit was a "practical topic." It must not have been that practical if he was so quickly willing to abandon it. And we definitely wouldn't want someone to suffer a breakdown if he were anxious and eager to debate a topic but had few or no takers.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

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The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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