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(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: What we are to follow

December 24 2012, 3:12 PM 

Madison makes a point of telling everyone what they are doing: they publically confessed that they intended to let the oldsters THINK that they were on a train to Birmingham but WE gonna switch the cars and send them to Lexington CAUSE that's what we gonna do.

The boasted about turning the church into "a theater for holy entertainment" and their antics have been spread all around the world.

They were one of the first to boast of having a musical worship team. They knew and planned that they would sow massive discord and take away the spiritual family of anyone who stood in their way. They had a Purpose Driven church which is a Purpose Driven Cult. They calculated that they could lose all of those owners but make it up by sucking in people who wanted to be musically entertained and not preached to.

Because their influence has been used around the world and they pretend that "God hath not said" and that influence has afflicted all of us, everyone who understands that the PATTERN is to teach that which has been taught and NO "programs" has a right to post Scripture which proves that they are wrong. To a large extent, while those who oppose have been treated with great abuse, they have had less influence than they hoped and increasingly people are not entertained by wimpy singy-clappy people trying to MIND ALTER with the use of music and do not think they are very talented.

So, everyone has a right to teach that which has been taught and would be remiss if they didn't. Lacking a pulpit financed with extorted money (Paul's teaching) CM and others have to finance their own effort.

In the Campbell pattern all "christian" division and slaughter of people could cease if everyone obeyed the pattern to TEACH the Word and not try to fill in the blanks.

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Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

December 24 2012, 12:12 PM 

Stop Gossip in the Church

by Bryant Evans on April 16, 2010

Do church members gossip? Do they gossip about each other? I think we know the answer. And I think we know that all of us have been guilty of gossip at some time. But we also know that gossip is a horrendous habit that can assault, crush and destroy even the strongest believer.

Gossip is particularly damaging in the local church because people are often more open with fellow Christians about their weaknesses and needs. And because those weaknesses are out in the open it may be that gossip is more common in the church than anywhere else. A frightening thought wouldnt you say?

Just think for a moment. How many people have been the target of gossip from within the church? How many have been hurt, even mortally wounded by the careless comments of another? Too many I am sure.

Gossip Is A Real Problem

Regardless of why, loose talk hurts. Victims of the gossipers tongue first of all feel embarrassment that their problems are now public. No one wants their dirty laundry tossed about before others.

After the shame the victim feels betrayed or let down by the person in whom they confided. We imagine how Jesus felt when betrayed and denied by Judas and then Peter. We also remember our own pain when someone betrays us. It hurts badly.

Gossip destroys influence. Even strong, mature Christians deal with serious shortcomings daily (Romans 3:23). Revealing private details of their struggles can harm others looking to them for strength.

But most of all, gossip is a problem because it is a sin. It violates the Gold Rule of Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31. It violates our Lords command to love one another (John 13:34; Romans 12:10; 1 John 3:11). Often the gossip is untrue which adds to its sinfulness. Gossip is simply wrong (1 Timothy 5:13; 2 Thessalonians 3:11 .

Gossip In the Church

Well, we expect gossip at the office. We expect it at the ballpark. We even expect it at a PTA meeting or during a telephone call with a friend. But we do not expect it at church.

Gossip seems to occur in the church for several reasons and not all of them are bad. In fact the motive may be noble but the outcome is still sinful.

Stop Gossip Intended to Help

Sometimes, people think they are helping by telling another about someones problem.

I was sure glad to see Sandra at worship this morning.

Me too. I know shes been struggling recently, came the reply, which unfortunately did not end there. Sandra and Bill have been fighting a lot. I heard he was a bit too friendly with a girl at work. Of course Sandra has been busy with her new job. I guess she just needs to spend more time with him.

Now probably, our speaker really thinks she is helping by briefing another Christian on how to help Sandra. After all, the church is a family and we all work together to encourage and exhort one another. But there was very little help here. Even assuming that what the speaker said was true, this did nothing to encourage or assist Sandra. Instead, both she and Bill are objects of curiosity and, in the case of Bill, scorn.

Stop Gossip Intended to Apply the Lesson

Every preacher has experienced it. It usually occurs at the door of the church where people are speaking to the preacher as they leave the assembly.

It goes like this:

That was a fine lesson on watching your language. I know certain people have a problem with that, he says while nodding toward a brother in Christ.

Some take the lesson and use it to hammer someone else. Its concerning to me that the message means so little to the hearers and that they can so quickly brush it off and point it at someone else.

Anyway you cut it and whatever motive you attach to it, it is still gossip.

Stop Gossip Thats Just Plain Gossip

Of course the old reasons for gossip are still present even in the church. Envy, covetousness, malice and jealousy cause gossip in and out of the body of Christ. Paul told the Galatians that these things are works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21). They have no place in the life of the Christian. Gossip is but one outcome of such characteristics. With Gods changing power we can eliminate such from our lives.

Idle talk is perhaps the single most common cause of gossip. We dont intend to hurt anyone and we would never knowingly gossip about a brother or sister, but we do. I guess we assume the information is known or that the person we are speaking to is close enough and dear enough that we can talk about things with them. Such an assumption is usually wrong.

Whatever the reason, gossip is wrong and we must do all we can to stop gossip.

Stop Gossip by Tightening Loose Tongues

Here are five ideas to help but the brakes on waging tongues. As always, start with self first.
1.Make a conscious effort to monitor your own words. Actively listen to yourself. Make careful note of what you talk about, who you talk about and precisely what you say. Ensure that your words are Godly words that directly build-up, not tear down.
2.Make a conscious effort to monitor your own hearing. What ever comes into your mind makes an impression. Dont listen to the juicy details about someone you know. Either move the conversation to a new subject or move along yourself.
3.Speak out to stop gossip. There is no need to be nasty but just let people know you will not be a party to gossip. It might be easier to tell your close friends before gossip begins that you are trying to break a bad habit. When the talk starts, interrupt and remind people that youd rather not talk about other people.
4.Assume unflattering stories are false. When you hear something tawdry about someone do you assume it is true? What if we all just assumed that the gossip was false? Would that slow things down?
5.Let gossip end with you. What if every piece of gossip depended upon you? Would it live or die? Slay gossip by refusing to repeat it. Keep count for the next week. How many pieces of gossip did you kill? You might be surprised.

Gossip is incredibly common and incredibly destructive. There is no place for gossip anywhere but especially in the church where are brothers and sisters and servants of the Most High. Do your part to squelch wagging tongues!

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

December 24 2012, 1:02 PM 

Is it gossip that the elders see nothing wrong with Instrumental Music BUT will restrict it to the youth group (where we boil frogs confesses Rick Atchley).

Is it gossip that the new youth minister becomes senior whatever introduced his sermon with music the TEENS will know all about?

Is it gossip that they violate all of the principles laid down and PATTERNED by jesus who obeyed God the father and had nothing of his own to teach? By whose authority do they DECIDE that something is OK when it is condemned from the "singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden" to the Babylon Mother of harlots (Rev 17) whose speakers, singers, players etal are really SORCERERS?

The RULERSHIP of elders is to FEED the lambs and not to entertain the goats. He has NO WIDER AUTHORITY and his ONLY Resource is that which is written for our learning.

Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete,
.....that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting,
.....and ordain elders in every city, I had appointed thee
Titus 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife,
.....having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, the steward of God;
.....not selfwilled,
.....not soon angry,
.....not given to wine, striker,
.....not given to filthy lucre;
Titus 1:8 But a lover of hospitality,
.....a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word he hath been taught,
.....that he may be able by sound doctrine
.....both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers,
.....specially they of the circumcision:
Titus 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses,
.....teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucres sake.

Jesus marked the circumcision party as Scribes and Pharisees (clergy) and hypocrites: In Ezekiel 33 the hypocrites are preachers pleasing the audience, singers and instrument players. I submit that the elders blaspheme the Spirit OF Christ in all of the prophets when they give their approval for forcing the youth to make the connection between instrumental music and spiritual worship. They will be "hard wired" and the Winterfesters KNOW exactly what they are doing.

A person is NOT a bishop or FEEDER of the flock if he violates direct commands and presumes to feed LAMBS by the sounds of rushing waters. The shepherd LEADS the lambs beside still waters and the lambs FEED THEMSELVES on the grass. The Shepherd FENDS OFF the wolves and does not secretly feed them with never-commanded tithes and offerings. When the flock voluntarily supports the PROGRAM they are in an area where the Shepherds have absolutely no dominant authority.

The Spirit OF Christ pronounced woes on the spiritual leaders (dominated by wives) who collect unlawful and often tithes so they can have wine, women and instrumental performances in the temple. See Amos and Isaiah.

You should reveal the nature of the "gossip" quickly!

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Dec 24, 2012 1:06 PM

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(no login)

Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

December 24 2012, 1:29 PM 

Ken, have another glass of "Holenwald Egg Nog". I'm in no hurry. happy.gif Merry Christmas!

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Stats on "Gossip"

December 24 2012, 3:39 PM 


"Stop Gossip in the Church" would make an excellent separate thread, and you might be interested in initiating that thread.

Here at CM, we don't point out, e.g., that sister Martha attends the assembly only twice a year: on "Easter Sunday" and on Sunday Christmas eve.

Scripture made a good point earlier about the distinction between gossip and talk; presented possible examples of gossip but also stressed the importance of accurate reporting.

It might be of interest to the reader that based on searches of certain key words related to the subject matter of "gossip," the KJV reveals the following:

(1) 0 = no. of times "gossip" appears
(2) 20 = no. of times "report" or "reported" appears
(3) 1 = "evil report" (2 Cor. 6:8)
(4) 8 = "good report" (Heb. 11:2,39; I Tim. 3:7; 2 Cor. 6:8; etc.)
(5) 1 = "honest report" (Acts 6:3)
(6) 18 = "conversation"
(7) 2 = "good conversation" (Jas. 3:13; I Peter 3:16)

Let CM know if it is inaccurately reporting certain events at Madison concerning the instrumental music scheme game; the appointment of the now-former "youth minister" as it "senior minister"; the "entertainment" factor in the "grow-the-church" scheme; in using Rick Warren's Community Church manual as its guide; etc.; etc. These are "brotherhood" or "fellowship" issues.

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(no login)

Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

December 26 2012, 9:57 AM 

Donnie said in his first post:

"It is not our intent to make this thread into a gossip column...."


Donnie, I was only trying to help. I have not pointed a finger at anyone. I know when dealing with Church gossip that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". This is my final post on this matter. Thanks.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Thanks for your help...

December 27 2012, 12:32 AM 

At times I'm just not a good mind-reader.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

"Elders Allow Havoc"

December 28 2012, 12:41 AM 

Amalgamation of Christianity with Paganism and Its Results

Christian Form
Pagan Practice
Unfortunate Results
Jesus is the Son of God
The Corn Mother is God
Mary is the Mother of God
Jesus is the Son of God
The Sun is God
Jesus is the Sun God
Church is our Model
The Community is our Model
Model the Church after the Community
We are saved by Grace
Works do not indicate Salvation
Grace has nothing to do with Works
The Church is Unique
I feel uncomfortable being unique
Make the church like Everything else
Congregation likes the preacher
Elders allow havoc
Get another preacher
Church Growth depends on many factors
There aren't but two salvation issues
Build the church on two issues

The above chart has already been posted by Scripture under this thread: "Was Jesus Born on Dec. 25? This article says no!" ... asking for comments. I find the chart worth repeating here as it clearly relates to the Madison situation.

[Published without Scripture's permission yet.]

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(no login)

Permission Granted

December 28 2012, 12:55 AM 

Thanks for redesigning the chart--I'm just getting used to the HTML commands! They're great to use!

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Permission Granted

December 28 2012, 1:20 AM 

Thanks for the "grant." Yes, HTML is powerful and fun. I'm glad that you're learning and getting used to HTML very rapidly. It's good that we have the option to click the "Preview" button first before publishing.

CM greatly appreciates your efforts and refreshing contributions.


That was meant to be a response to Scripture from Donnie.

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Dec 28, 2012 1:28 AM

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(no login)

Stubbled upon this site

December 28 2012, 1:10 AM 

I stubbled upon this site looking for a contact number for the Madison church. I have been sadden and somewhat entertained by the dialogue found in its threads and post. But this thread I found especially of interest since I know the new minister or know of him at least.
I think you will be please with his hearts and approach, after all he was trained at one of your universities, Freed-Hardeman. I know he has challenged students for years to practice true Christ-like discipleship and challenge the status quo of traditional thinking. I can only assume he will bring the same challenges to this new arena.

I personally wished I was close enough to attend and be a part of this new chapter of Madison's history. Buckle up its going to be exciting and fresh.

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Re: Stubbled upon this site

December 28 2012, 10:44 AM 

"Anonymous" says that the new minister will "challenge the status quo of traditional thinking."

In the church of Christ, the traditional thinking is to worship God "in spirit and in truth." So we wonder just exactly how "exciting and fresh" this forthcoming chapter in Madison's history is going to be. Of course, I don't recall Jesus or His apostles ever instructing us to do all we can to make the Gospel and hence worship "exciting and fresh" (as if the Gospel and worship per se could ever really grow dull and stale) or to challenge their status quo or anything else about them. Evidently Jesus and His apostles thought that the Gospel and worship would always remain fresh in the hearts of true believers; evidently those who challenge the "traditional thinking" of the Gospel and worship think otherwise. But I guess the true traditions of the Gospel and worship could indeed grow dull and stale in the hearts of malcontents and those who rebel against the teachings of Christ and His apostles. Such malcontents would certainly seek someone who could spice up the Gospel and worship with the entertaining, worldly agenda of man to draw in the crowds.

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(no login)


December 28 2012, 1:21 PM 

That will be a step away from one age group to an older one. Let's hope that's not a "bridge too far."

I'm sure its a challenge for the speaking minister to keep his focus on the Word, and not be distracted by all the input that will come his way. This can be a wonderful growth period from a part to the whole. Let's ask that all involved--those who profess to lead and those who contribute in any way--will help create a successful tenure. Although he must keep his mind on the Word, he must also interface that Word with the real-life situation around him.

Jesus had the ASK formula--ASK and you will receive, SEEK and you will find, KNOCK and it will be opened for you.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Trained at Freed-Hardeman

January 7 2013, 1:43 AM 

Of course, Jason will have a chance to prove himself. It should be every disciple's desire to practice "true Christ-like discipleship"; but I believe that "challenging "the status quo of traditional thinking" is not necessary to achieve it.

The change agents have been attempting to "transform" the church by implementing Community Church- and culture-driven methodologies in order to challenge "church traditions." The big mistake (perhaps unbeknownst to them) has been in their way of identifying what constitutes "church traditions." Think about this one: the change agents' idea is that even though the church of Christ follows what the New Testament teaches regarding the church, salvation and apostolic doctrine, the church of Christ is still GUILTY of following its own "traditions." That notion is nonsensical because it fails to differentiate apostolic tradition [which the church is already trying to follow] versus man-made traditions [such as those from the pope, the Roman Catholic Church, and of denominational origin].

The change agents' attempts to challenge "church traditions" [as defined by them] have brought nothing but controversy, conflict and unnecessary division in the church. In essence, why bother to challenge the church for the wrong reason?

The Scripture is clear when we're instructed as follows: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us." (II Thess. 3:6)

Now, being trained at Freed-Hardeman [known for being "conservative"] should be a plus. But then Rubel Shelly, one of the great hopes for the Restoration Movement (Part II) to perpetuate, was also trained at F-H. Unfortunately, it didn't turn out as expected. The New Testament church of our day will be able to preserve better its "apostolic teachings and traditions" without the presence of this one of the more prominent change agents in the brotherhood.

There are ways to "grow the church" without the church behaving just like the other [denomi]nations. Implementing the use of man-made, inanimate, lifeless musical instruments in the assembly -- beginning with the "youth" -- is NOT one of the ways.

"Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. ... Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." (I Tim. 4:12-16)

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: "Elders Allow Havoc"

February 11 2013, 12:52 PM 

[linked image]

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

February 10 2013, 10:56 PM 

The "sermon" today was "BIG CHURCH Part Six: 'Big Answers'" preceded by some short video with no narration but with some soft instrumental music sound in the background. (Perhaps, the "boiling the frog" desensitization to IM was at work [so long as there's no singing with accompaniment involved].)

Early in the series, Jason emphasized the New Testament "ekklesia" described in the book of Acts. Today, he talked about the church with its message being superior to the message of nature or to the message of other cultures.

What Jason failed to do is making the distinction between: (1) the New Testament church with its simple gospel message and (2) what is defined as Christianity in a broad, general sense, that would encompass all Catholic, Protestant and other groups.

There was some soft instrumental music in the background DURING the partaking of the Lord's Supper.

The ladies on stage co-worship leading were in action today. Again. It's becoming a part of the regular programmed worship.

Chris Lindsey [male] began his "Worship Leader" ministry at Madison today. Swaying his body to the music [perhaps replacing the hand wagging] would not go unnoticed.

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Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

February 11 2013, 12:09 AM 

Instrumemntal "background" music today, instrumental music "accompanying" and "enhancing" the singing tomorrow.

It's all done in slow, sneaky increments.

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Tom Brite
(no login)

Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

February 11 2013, 10:27 AM 

"There was some soft instrumental music in the background DURING the partaking of the Lord's Supper."

Donnie, you did not seem to make too much of this development. Just curious, has this happened before? This seems to be a major development in the journey of Madison towards instruments in worship. Also, was this recorded music played over the PA system while everything else was silent? Must admit, I'm pretty amazed by this news.

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Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

February 11 2013, 12:13 PM 

Yes, during the partaking of the bread and fruit of the vine, instrumental music was on the PA system.

No, I don't believe that this was the first time this has happened.

Everything else was quiet.

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Tom Brite
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Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

February 11 2013, 2:02 PM 

That is also what was promised at Oak Hills many years ago. Of course, now, it is a full on rock band.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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